Forums > Social Chat > alternatives to war?? utopian ideas?
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142 posts
Location: bristol
142 posts
Location: bristol
Posted:
I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this thread but as a kind of "moving on" from the say no to war thread. There seems to be a general concencous that we'ed rather war didn't exist but the problem as I see it is that its very hard for us (as the general populace of the western world) to avoid contributing to it in one way or another in this society. IE through our taxes, consumerism, infact much of our life style is life destructive in one way or another. I guess many of us have thought about how things could be different but how can change come about and maybee whats your utopian ideal for human life on earth??
I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this thread but as a kind of "moving on" from the say no to war thread. There seems to be a general concencous that we'ed rather war didn't exist but the problem as I see it is that its very hard for us (as the general populace of the western world) to avoid contributing to it in one way or another in this society. IE through our taxes, consumerism, infact much of our life style is life destructive in one way or another. I guess many of us have thought about how things could be different but how can change come about and maybee whats your utopian ideal for human life on earth??
member
83 posts
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
83 posts
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posted:
Money is the root of all evil.
Get rid of money and revert to a barter system.
I'm short of time but I will think about this more later.
Nice topic tho.
Money is the root of all evil.
Get rid of money and revert to a barter system.
I'm short of time but I will think about this more later.
Nice topic tho.
- Honk if you love peace and quiet!
HoP Mechanical Engineer
729 posts
Location: OK, USA
729 posts
Location: OK, USA
Posted:
One revolutionary philosopher (for his time) believed that wars, conflict, and crime in general are the result of the fact that some people have more money or power than others, and some sort of animosity will always result from that division of classes. His answer was to eliminate the class differences by redistributing resources equally.
In this "utopian" society, everyone would be expected to "put in what they can, and take out what they need." It works on the assumption that humanity is inherently good and that a community of this sort of people would flourish with an absence of crime because no one has more than another.
This system eliminates the need for a government to rule over the people because they would be considered self-sufficient. No police, no government agencies to regulate behavior or insure that the rules are being followed because, hey, in this perfect society everyone follows the rules.
Here's where things go sour. To get to this sort of system from where we are today, a revolution (violent) would have to take place. After the chips settle, those now in power would have to convince everyone that they're now equal to everyone else around them. This state is called anarchy - the absence of any form of government.
Anyone with a skill (e.g. a factory worker) will be expected to perform that skill for community growth rather than personal gain. Everyone gets their food, money, etc assigned to them on the basis that they don't need any more than the next person. So essentially, no matter how hard one works, they will only get as much as the individuals who do nothing.
Name the philosopher and this system of "utopian" government, and you get a cookie
One revolutionary philosopher (for his time) believed that wars, conflict, and crime in general are the result of the fact that some people have more money or power than others, and some sort of animosity will always result from that division of classes. His answer was to eliminate the class differences by redistributing resources equally.
In this "utopian" society, everyone would be expected to "put in what they can, and take out what they need." It works on the assumption that humanity is inherently good and that a community of this sort of people would flourish with an absence of crime because no one has more than another.
This system eliminates the need for a government to rule over the people because they would be considered self-sufficient. No police, no government agencies to regulate behavior or insure that the rules are being followed because, hey, in this perfect society everyone follows the rules.
Here's where things go sour. To get to this sort of system from where we are today, a revolution (violent) would have to take place. After the chips settle, those now in power would have to convince everyone that they're now equal to everyone else around them. This state is called anarchy - the absence of any form of government.
Anyone with a skill (e.g. a factory worker) will be expected to perform that skill for community growth rather than personal gain. Everyone gets their food, money, etc assigned to them on the basis that they don't need any more than the next person. So essentially, no matter how hard one works, they will only get as much as the individuals who do nothing.
Name the philosopher and this system of "utopian" government, and you get a cookie
What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.
AnonymousPLATINUM Member
Posted:
My Euro History gave us his idea.
"...set up this utopian society, party all the time, and marry lots of women."
Now just imagine a rather portly man who's incredibly cynical and walks like a penguin saying that. Mr. Rabbott was crazy.
My Euro History gave us his idea.
"...set up this utopian society, party all the time, and marry lots of women."
Now just imagine a rather portly man who's incredibly cynical and walks like a penguin saying that. Mr. Rabbott was crazy.
member
83 posts
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
83 posts
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posted:
Karl Marx + Communism?
And damn you you beat me to it!!
Though I have been thinking about a form of super-pure communism without money even.. since money inevitably leads to crime and corruption.
[ 11. January 2003, 05:31: Message edited by: Kev ]
Karl Marx + Communism?
And damn you you beat me to it!!
Though I have been thinking about a form of super-pure communism without money even.. since money inevitably leads to crime and corruption.
[ 11. January 2003, 05:31: Message edited by: Kev ]
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Quantum Theorist
564 posts
Location: Vansterdam
564 posts
Location: Vansterdam
Posted:
I say we set up Socialism though out the entire world, with a group of elected and apointed officials who Administrate not govern the world and call it Terra Social Admin or something. But if you have read 1984 you know that idea can backfire.
Or we could have a utopien soc that is governed by fire spinners and other fire loving persons.
Say NO to Bush's War on Oil!
I say we set up Socialism though out the entire world, with a group of elected and apointed officials who Administrate not govern the world and call it Terra Social Admin or something. But if you have read 1984 you know that idea can backfire.
Or we could have a utopien soc that is governed by fire spinners and other fire loving persons.
Say NO to Bush's War on Oil!
In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird, now the world is weird and they take prozac to make it normal again.
Dreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
Posted:
Anyone ever read Ursula K. Le Guin's "The Dispossesed"? It has a really beautiful utopian idea- some of the problems associated with it (stagnation and discrimination of outsiders, gradual bearacracy giving a select few an advantage...) but generally has a very good idea....
also the whole one man's heaven is another man's hell.....
Anyone ever read Ursula K. Le Guin's "The Dispossesed"? It has a really beautiful utopian idea- some of the problems associated with it (stagnation and discrimination of outsiders, gradual bearacracy giving a select few an advantage...) but generally has a very good idea....
also the whole one man's heaven is another man's hell.....
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
First things first. Humans are flawed, they have egos and a desire to survive that is self destructive.
A utopian society will not work buecause of those key reasons. Not to be pessimistick, I think on would be great but I dont see it happening at all.
First things first. Humans are flawed, they have egos and a desire to survive that is self destructive.
A utopian society will not work buecause of those key reasons. Not to be pessimistick, I think on would be great but I dont see it happening at all.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
Ray, I disagree. Look at a human baby. Notice how it mimics smiles, how it's actions are those of love and those that attract love. However from that point on we're taught negativity.
You come from the US, a very ego-centric nation where people are destructive. When I moved to the UK from Asia I was stunned by how selfish, closed and petty people were. Still am. There are nations and communities, espically in the East, where the community is more important, there is more balance of power within a group and peace reigns. There communities are raised differently to us in the West.
I could give some ideas, but little time at the moment. Be interesting to read this thread in a bit if people contribute some serious, valid ideas.
Ray, I disagree. Look at a human baby. Notice how it mimics smiles, how it's actions are those of love and those that attract love. However from that point on we're taught negativity.
You come from the US, a very ego-centric nation where people are destructive. When I moved to the UK from Asia I was stunned by how selfish, closed and petty people were. Still am. There are nations and communities, espically in the East, where the community is more important, there is more balance of power within a group and peace reigns. There communities are raised differently to us in the West.
I could give some ideas, but little time at the moment. Be interesting to read this thread in a bit if people contribute some serious, valid ideas.
veteran
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
Posted:
anyhow i do agree with this esential point dom has made... I do belive that there are to many external factors to make any such generalization over one individual... there fore cannot say who could be what when as I cant even say what i would do when... its all jsut happening isnt it... why stop it if it happens for a reason... that is unless u need to stop it to go towards your path...
drome
quote:I have splattered my opinion in the thread runnign right now about war.... dunno if I can handle another rant...
Originally posted by Dom:
However from that point on we're taught negativity.
anyhow i do agree with this esential point dom has made... I do belive that there are to many external factors to make any such generalization over one individual... there fore cannot say who could be what when as I cant even say what i would do when... its all jsut happening isnt it... why stop it if it happens for a reason... that is unless u need to stop it to go towards your path...
drome
JUGGLEwithyourmind!
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
Ok so we take all our money and throw it away. I guess this means we cease to have a government to because governments cost money. So what you really want is complete anarchy.
Do you not think with no organization people will not take advantage of the situation and murder, rape, pillage and plunder for their own ends? What magical change of heart is going to eliminate this possibility. Maybe you can come up with a plan to make everyone peaceful but what if your wrong and the end result is a broken world with no order and a lot of suffering? Lenin was wrong and it resulted in the death of 10's of millions of people when stalin took over.
Now don't you think a barter system will eventually turn into a basic money system? Guess what bartering is grossley inconvient and in an advanced society like ours where we required skilled services and specialized goods, some people will have a lot more to give with their skills then what they can possibly receive. A doctor has skills an entire village requires heavily. But the entire village can only give the doctor food and basic goods and services? The doctor is loseing big time in this deal.
Eventually a money system will develop out of need and we will be back to where we are now.
Ok so we take all our money and throw it away. I guess this means we cease to have a government to because governments cost money. So what you really want is complete anarchy.
Do you not think with no organization people will not take advantage of the situation and murder, rape, pillage and plunder for their own ends? What magical change of heart is going to eliminate this possibility. Maybe you can come up with a plan to make everyone peaceful but what if your wrong and the end result is a broken world with no order and a lot of suffering? Lenin was wrong and it resulted in the death of 10's of millions of people when stalin took over.
Now don't you think a barter system will eventually turn into a basic money system? Guess what bartering is grossley inconvient and in an advanced society like ours where we required skilled services and specialized goods, some people will have a lot more to give with their skills then what they can possibly receive. A doctor has skills an entire village requires heavily. But the entire village can only give the doctor food and basic goods and services? The doctor is loseing big time in this deal.
Eventually a money system will develop out of need and we will be back to where we are now.
member
83 posts
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
83 posts
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posted:
Isn't this thread about utopian ideas, not practical ones? I already said in the thread about war that ALL forms of government will fail because of humanity's basic flaws.
The point was that communism would work perfectly in a utopian world.. the only world it COULD work in, as the very philosophy of communism is highly idealistic in itself. My addition to this is that if such a utopian world DID exist, what need would there be for money? Since the needs of all are already provided for, money is irrelevant. Government could easily still exist - you say that government costs money, but how can it cost money in a world without any? People in government would go to work like everyone else, and in return their needs are provided for. Although, as previously stated, a utopian world would not need government anyway. I feel you're missing the whole point of communism here - that all people are equal, period. A doctor may have skills required by many, but he depends on everyone else for all his needs. Thinking of it in terms of the value of the doctor to the community and what he receives in return is exactly the kind of capitalist mentality that could NEVER work in a utopian world, and indeed is responsible for much sadness and grief in today's world.
Bartering is inconvenient? Ahh convenience.. just one of a long list of desirable attributes that leads to a society like today's So, if you consider bartering inconvenient, I say it fits well in a utopian world.
[ 11. January 2003, 17:49: Message edited by: Kev ]
Isn't this thread about utopian ideas, not practical ones? I already said in the thread about war that ALL forms of government will fail because of humanity's basic flaws.
The point was that communism would work perfectly in a utopian world.. the only world it COULD work in, as the very philosophy of communism is highly idealistic in itself. My addition to this is that if such a utopian world DID exist, what need would there be for money? Since the needs of all are already provided for, money is irrelevant. Government could easily still exist - you say that government costs money, but how can it cost money in a world without any? People in government would go to work like everyone else, and in return their needs are provided for. Although, as previously stated, a utopian world would not need government anyway. I feel you're missing the whole point of communism here - that all people are equal, period. A doctor may have skills required by many, but he depends on everyone else for all his needs. Thinking of it in terms of the value of the doctor to the community and what he receives in return is exactly the kind of capitalist mentality that could NEVER work in a utopian world, and indeed is responsible for much sadness and grief in today's world.
Bartering is inconvenient? Ahh convenience.. just one of a long list of desirable attributes that leads to a society like today's So, if you consider bartering inconvenient, I say it fits well in a utopian world.
[ 11. January 2003, 17:49: Message edited by: Kev ]
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member
244 posts
Location: NZ
244 posts
Location: NZ
Posted:
this is utopia we just can`t see it
this is utopia we just can`t see it
Quantum Theorist
564 posts
Location: Vansterdam
564 posts
Location: Vansterdam
Posted:
*cough* IngSoc *cough*
I still say we set up HoP as the ruling body of the world
*cough* IngSoc *cough*
I still say we set up HoP as the ruling body of the world
In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird, now the world is weird and they take prozac to make it normal again.
SILVER Member
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
Thanks Jim for starting this thread, for putting something new into the mix. I really do appreciate it.
I read threads like the "say no to war" thread and it exhausts me. The anger, the shouting, the lack of listening.
So my utopia would be that first of all, there would be no need for shouting (other than shouts of joy). No need to puff up your chest and holler at someone else.
I won't go so far as to say there would be no disagreement in my utopia, because there would have to be differing views for it to have that name. But the disagreements would be resolved, instead of used like a mallet to bash others over the head.
Many, many more things, but this would be the start.
Thanks Jim for starting this thread, for putting something new into the mix. I really do appreciate it.
I read threads like the "say no to war" thread and it exhausts me. The anger, the shouting, the lack of listening.
So my utopia would be that first of all, there would be no need for shouting (other than shouts of joy). No need to puff up your chest and holler at someone else.
I won't go so far as to say there would be no disagreement in my utopia, because there would have to be differing views for it to have that name. But the disagreements would be resolved, instead of used like a mallet to bash others over the head.
Many, many more things, but this would be the start.
It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.
What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...
member
43 posts
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire, England
43 posts
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire, England
Posted:
Mike Skinner of The Streets put it best when he sang
"Imagine the world's leaders on pills"
Mike Skinner of The Streets put it best when he sang
"Imagine the world's leaders on pills"
Is this were Im supposed to write something interesting.....errmm.........AVOCARDO!!!!!!
member
83 posts
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
83 posts
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posted:
Please, no Bunnikins, that thought scares the shit out of me!
Please, no Bunnikins, that thought scares the shit out of me!
- Honk if you love peace and quiet!
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Seems to be working just fine in China.
Right?
Riiiiiiight!
quote:Karl Marx and Communism
Originally posted by Dio:
Name the philosopher and this system of "utopian" government, and you get a cookie
Seems to be working just fine in China.
Right?
Riiiiiiight!
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
See, the cobbler comes to the doctor and needs his broken leg set. Ok, so I set his broken leg and I say "I need a new pair of shoes." Then the grocer comes in needing me to fix his sinus infection, so I do that (never mind where antibiotics will come from in this system) and I tell him that I could use some groceries.
Great. I can treat everyone in town, everyone needs my services.
But what about the farrier? He needs his boil lanced, and what can he offer me? Well, seeing as how I don't have a horse...nothing.
And so he's screwed unless I'm charitable. And that means that he gets to go home and wait to die of toxemia.
A barter system only works in a simple society where each member of the community can produce goods and services that every other member of the community needs.
Incidentally, this was one little thing at the back of my mind when I chose to go into medicine: if society completely crumbles, lawyers won't exactly be in demand. But doctors are useful wherever you are and no matter what has happened.
quote:I'm not so worried about the doctor, but the farrier (the guy who shoes horses).
Originally posted by Astar:
Now don't you think a barter system will eventually turn into a basic money system? Guess what bartering is grossley inconvient and in an advanced society like ours where we required skilled services and specialized goods, some people will have a lot more to give with their skills then what they can possibly receive. A doctor has skills an entire village requires heavily. But the entire village can only give the doctor food and basic goods and services? The doctor is loseing big time in this deal.
Eventually a money system will develop out of need and we will be back to where we are now.
See, the cobbler comes to the doctor and needs his broken leg set. Ok, so I set his broken leg and I say "I need a new pair of shoes." Then the grocer comes in needing me to fix his sinus infection, so I do that (never mind where antibiotics will come from in this system) and I tell him that I could use some groceries.
Great. I can treat everyone in town, everyone needs my services.
But what about the farrier? He needs his boil lanced, and what can he offer me? Well, seeing as how I don't have a horse...nothing.
And so he's screwed unless I'm charitable. And that means that he gets to go home and wait to die of toxemia.
A barter system only works in a simple society where each member of the community can produce goods and services that every other member of the community needs.
Incidentally, this was one little thing at the back of my mind when I chose to go into medicine: if society completely crumbles, lawyers won't exactly be in demand. But doctors are useful wherever you are and no matter what has happened.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
SILVER Member
old hand
899 posts
Location: New York City, USA
old hand
899 posts
Location: New York City, USA
Posted:
I always thought that feudalism was a perfectly good way to run things.
That would end political correctness too, which I'm all for.
Raph
I always thought that feudalism was a perfectly good way to run things.
That would end political correctness too, which I'm all for.
Raph
member
18 posts
Location: Somerset
18 posts
Location: Somerset
Posted:
we are all so funny and weird and complicated, everything is. utopia would be if we had one love, unity and freedom if everyone believed only in love then there would be no point in doing anything bad to anyone or anything and everything would all fit together as you can see how it would. nature all fits together a utopia would be when humans return to there roots and act with instead of contary. return to simplicity
we are all so funny and weird and complicated, everything is. utopia would be if we had one love, unity and freedom if everyone believed only in love then there would be no point in doing anything bad to anyone or anything and everything would all fit together as you can see how it would. nature all fits together a utopia would be when humans return to there roots and act with instead of contary. return to simplicity
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Yeah, Raph, but you're a New Yorker, so your opinion doesn't count.
(Just kidding, but spending a weekend studying vomit and diarrhea makes me belligerent. )
Yeah, Raph, but you're a New Yorker, so your opinion doesn't count.
(Just kidding, but spending a weekend studying vomit and diarrhea makes me belligerent. )
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Incidentally, I am currently re-reading the MARS trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson. There are three books in the trilogy proper, RED MARS, GREEN MARS, and BLUE MARS. In addition, there is a fourth supplement called "THE MARTIANS" which is a collection of short stories and essays set in the same universe.
In these books, Robinson explores a number of plausable outcomes of a society like ours. Included in this is the story of "underground" martian settlements consisting of a small number of people living in various models of intentional community and engaging in cooperative trading. For example, lightbulbs are complicated pieces of equipment that most cooperatives of ~100 people can't make while remaining self-sufficient. Hence, in his system, one community made lightbulbs, another made heavy equipment, another made fuel rods for nuclear reactors, etc...
Of course, they weren't even 100% self-sufficient in this system. They had to keep stealing from the evil Terran transnational organizations to maintain their supply of goods.
As far as a practical system goes, I think that Europe in general does a lot better than the U.S. as far as managing to keep giant megacorporations under control, maintain civil liberties, see to basic human needs (health care in particular), and avoid wasteful and environmentally harmful practices. The average waste output per capita in Europe is about 1/6 of what it is in the U.S. while the standard of living is comparable (people don't live in such massive houses, but they live quite comfortably). There also seems to be much less of a dramatic class division in Europe.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not claiming Europe is utopia. Far from it. Europe has serious problems. But in general, they seem to be doing a lot better than the U.S. on a lot of fronts.
Incidentally, I am currently re-reading the MARS trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson. There are three books in the trilogy proper, RED MARS, GREEN MARS, and BLUE MARS. In addition, there is a fourth supplement called "THE MARTIANS" which is a collection of short stories and essays set in the same universe.
In these books, Robinson explores a number of plausable outcomes of a society like ours. Included in this is the story of "underground" martian settlements consisting of a small number of people living in various models of intentional community and engaging in cooperative trading. For example, lightbulbs are complicated pieces of equipment that most cooperatives of ~100 people can't make while remaining self-sufficient. Hence, in his system, one community made lightbulbs, another made heavy equipment, another made fuel rods for nuclear reactors, etc...
Of course, they weren't even 100% self-sufficient in this system. They had to keep stealing from the evil Terran transnational organizations to maintain their supply of goods.
As far as a practical system goes, I think that Europe in general does a lot better than the U.S. as far as managing to keep giant megacorporations under control, maintain civil liberties, see to basic human needs (health care in particular), and avoid wasteful and environmentally harmful practices. The average waste output per capita in Europe is about 1/6 of what it is in the U.S. while the standard of living is comparable (people don't live in such massive houses, but they live quite comfortably). There also seems to be much less of a dramatic class division in Europe.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not claiming Europe is utopia. Far from it. Europe has serious problems. But in general, they seem to be doing a lot better than the U.S. on a lot of fronts.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
member
83 posts
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
83 posts
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posted:
I object to that. SOME of us live in massive houses!
But not me.
I object to that. SOME of us live in massive houses!
But not me.
- Honk if you love peace and quiet!
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
As for me being in Asia for about a year total now, I have seen my fair share of snobby, egocentric people. Its not all an American thing.
It doesnt matter who you are, you want yours.
I want whats comming to me.
Those are ideals from every walk of life, it is not limited to this or that hemisphere, or race, creed or religion.
Astar has a valid point, mankind likes to be in groups of like minded people. We form communities with out even trying, and we all know there are some pretty dasterdly people out there and some will take advantage over others.
There is always the 10% that dont agree, what do you do with those people?
You cant do anything with them, its impossible to do something positive or negitive with them without ruining the Utopia.
As for me being in Asia for about a year total now, I have seen my fair share of snobby, egocentric people. Its not all an American thing.
It doesnt matter who you are, you want yours.
I want whats comming to me.
Those are ideals from every walk of life, it is not limited to this or that hemisphere, or race, creed or religion.
Astar has a valid point, mankind likes to be in groups of like minded people. We form communities with out even trying, and we all know there are some pretty dasterdly people out there and some will take advantage over others.
There is always the 10% that dont agree, what do you do with those people?
You cant do anything with them, its impossible to do something positive or negitive with them without ruining the Utopia.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
member
531 posts
531 posts
Posted:
Utopia-any idealized place,state or situation of perfection
By definition utopia is an idea.Part of that I see as being because everyone has a varying idea of what perfection is.
I have to agree partially with Ray on this one.At this time in history I don't think a utopia could exist.Nor with the people who inhabit this planet.We are too conformed to the idea that religion,money,and government are absolutely necessary.
Me personally I say screw money or bartering systems.In a utopia you wouldn't need any of this because people would know how to simply share with one another.
Religion would be unnecessary.If everything is perfect than why do you need to worship anyone or anything?
Government would not exist because everyone would simply look out for one another.
In our world this could not happen because we are programmed with too many emotions.No one would believe that we don't need these things.Or those of us that would,would be greatly outnumbered by those who feel otherwise.
In my humble opinion utopia would be if this world existed without the presence of humanity.Nature would rule all the beautiful beasts of this planet as she has always done in a great peaceful anarchy.
Utopia-any idealized place,state or situation of perfection
By definition utopia is an idea.Part of that I see as being because everyone has a varying idea of what perfection is.
I have to agree partially with Ray on this one.At this time in history I don't think a utopia could exist.Nor with the people who inhabit this planet.We are too conformed to the idea that religion,money,and government are absolutely necessary.
Me personally I say screw money or bartering systems.In a utopia you wouldn't need any of this because people would know how to simply share with one another.
Religion would be unnecessary.If everything is perfect than why do you need to worship anyone or anything?
Government would not exist because everyone would simply look out for one another.
In our world this could not happen because we are programmed with too many emotions.No one would believe that we don't need these things.Or those of us that would,would be greatly outnumbered by those who feel otherwise.
In my humble opinion utopia would be if this world existed without the presence of humanity.Nature would rule all the beautiful beasts of this planet as she has always done in a great peaceful anarchy.
SILVER Member
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
Is Utopia a place that will ever exist? Or is it something that we put out there to strive towards, in the hope we can improve the world where we are now?
Is Utopia a place that will ever exist? Or is it something that we put out there to strive towards, in the hope we can improve the world where we are now?
It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.
What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...
member
531 posts
531 posts
Posted:
I think most people's version of utopia is heaven.Though that is something to strive towards.It's not going to happen here.
Take for instance the "Say No To War" thread.Some believe that war is the answer.Others feel that war will make things worse.Neither side realizes that they are both wrong.War is not the answer but neither is setting idly by waiting for something bad to happen.So what do we do?History has proven that people like Hitler or Stalin or Hussein will always exist at some point in time.How do we keep another person like these men from coming about?The only thing we can do is stop following them.That in itself however,is never going to happen because most people can't think for themselves.As soon as a government is formed these type of people can and will exist.Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
To anyone who posted on the "Say No To War" thread,this has been a really good thread.Let's not ruin it by bickering at one another about a subject that has already been beaten to death.
I think most people's version of utopia is heaven.Though that is something to strive towards.It's not going to happen here.
Take for instance the "Say No To War" thread.Some believe that war is the answer.Others feel that war will make things worse.Neither side realizes that they are both wrong.War is not the answer but neither is setting idly by waiting for something bad to happen.So what do we do?History has proven that people like Hitler or Stalin or Hussein will always exist at some point in time.How do we keep another person like these men from coming about?The only thing we can do is stop following them.That in itself however,is never going to happen because most people can't think for themselves.As soon as a government is formed these type of people can and will exist.Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
To anyone who posted on the "Say No To War" thread,this has been a really good thread.Let's not ruin it by bickering at one another about a subject that has already been beaten to death.
member
142 posts
Location: bristol
142 posts
Location: bristol
Posted:
For me, I think about what do we actually need to survive? We need oxygen to breathe, we need food and water. With those two things we'll survive, after that we need love and happiness and stimulation and then we grow stronger. My idea of utopia is a version of anarchy. I would like to disolve the structures (both physical and mental) of our society, why not have inplace of shops offices, factories etc kitchen gardens which are free for all after that people are free to persue any interest they have, they can live where they want, build their house if they want. There is alot of problems with this system maybee in reality, there would be conflicts between people from time to time but hopefully with people acting as individuals responsibly maybee these would not be much bigger than a few blokes throwing punches at each other? I think the main thing is that people act as individuals and don't expect the system to provide them with a house, employment, entertainment etc do it yerself!!
For me, I think about what do we actually need to survive? We need oxygen to breathe, we need food and water. With those two things we'll survive, after that we need love and happiness and stimulation and then we grow stronger. My idea of utopia is a version of anarchy. I would like to disolve the structures (both physical and mental) of our society, why not have inplace of shops offices, factories etc kitchen gardens which are free for all after that people are free to persue any interest they have, they can live where they want, build their house if they want. There is alot of problems with this system maybee in reality, there would be conflicts between people from time to time but hopefully with people acting as individuals responsibly maybee these would not be much bigger than a few blokes throwing punches at each other? I think the main thing is that people act as individuals and don't expect the system to provide them with a house, employment, entertainment etc do it yerself!!
member
279 posts
Location: Bath, UK
279 posts
Location: Bath, UK
Posted:
MONEY is NOT the root of all evil.
LOVE of MONEY is the root of all evil.
MONEY is NOT the root of all evil.
LOVE of MONEY is the root of all evil.
Magnus... pay it forward
BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
(Takes off his moderators cap)
money has nothing to do with being evil.
For me, Selfishness is the root of all evil. someone who loves money is not necesarily evil.
Someone who wants everything (including money) for themselves is not necesarily evil either.
Someone who wants everything for themselves (including money) and doesn't want anyone else to have it, and actually takes steps to try and make that happen, then, that's getting a lot closer to Evil.
in my opinion of course
(puts his cap back on)
(Takes off his moderators cap)
money has nothing to do with being evil.
For me, Selfishness is the root of all evil. someone who loves money is not necesarily evil.
Someone who wants everything (including money) for themselves is not necesarily evil either.
Someone who wants everything for themselves (including money) and doesn't want anyone else to have it, and actually takes steps to try and make that happen, then, that's getting a lot closer to Evil.
in my opinion of course
(puts his cap back on)
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