Forums > Social Discussion > God, what's the nature of... ?
Login/Join to ParticipateStargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Definition of god...
Or according to Dictionary.com
"God" is a term that is used by many to decribe something totally different. Just as "love" I consider the word "god" to be as one of the least defined.
What's your conception/ understanding of "the supreme being"?
Tell me/us... To you: is it a "very handsome, perfect man, ruling the universe"? Or is it more the "universal life force" - as in my personal understanding - that is in all beings and objects that exist/ don't exist... ???
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1139497747)
Definition of god...
Written by: wikipedia
God is the term used to denote the Supreme Being ascribed by monotheistic religions to be the creator, ruler and/or the sum total of, existence. Conceptions of God vary widely, despite the common use of the same term for them all.
Or according to Dictionary.com
Written by: Dictionary.com
God
A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
A very handsome man.
A powerful ruler or despot.
"God" is a term that is used by many to decribe something totally different. Just as "love" I consider the word "god" to be as one of the least defined.
What's your conception/ understanding of "the supreme being"?
Tell me/us... To you: is it a "very handsome, perfect man, ruling the universe"? Or is it more the "universal life force" - as in my personal understanding - that is in all beings and objects that exist/ don't exist... ???
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1139497747)
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
BRONZE Member
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
1,858 posts
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
1,858 posts
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom
Posted:
Non-Https Image Link
*runs and hides*
Non-Https Image Link
*runs and hides*
There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees
SILVER Member
Has sharp edges
1,266 posts
Location: Stuck in the mire, USA
Has sharp edges
1,266 posts
Location: Stuck in the mire, USA
Posted:
My ADD makes it so that.....Ooooo SHINY.....wanna go ride bikes....wait....where am I.....
SILVER Member
Electro Ponce!
383 posts
Location: Hull!, United Kingdom
Electro Ponce!
383 posts
Location: Hull!, United Kingdom
Posted:
FANTASTIC
FANTASTIC
What're you looking at?
I assume you're being rhetorical?
What're you callin' me!?
SILVER Member
Electro Ponce!
383 posts
Location: Hull!, United Kingdom
Electro Ponce!
383 posts
Location: Hull!, United Kingdom
Posted:
FANTASTIC picture!
you know, the church near us won't let us help out at their homeless persons shelter because we're not church goers!
FANTASTIC picture!
you know, the church near us won't let us help out at their homeless persons shelter because we're not church goers!
What're you looking at?
I assume you're being rhetorical?
What're you callin' me!?
SILVER Member
addict
475 posts
Location: Van Diemans Land, Australia
addict
475 posts
Location: Van Diemans Land, Australia
Posted:
Classic example of beggers being chosers
Written by: Larry
FANTASTIC picture!
you know, the church near us won't let us help out at their homeless persons shelter because we're not church goers!
Classic example of beggers being chosers
Fair luna bright, fair luna moon
it shines at night but fades too soon
fair luna moon, fair luna bright
forever we dance
we dance under starlight
SILVER Member
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Posted:
Well Tom, to me, God is Ultimate Love. It is an intelligent, creative energy which is ultimate love.
If you've ever read Conversations With God...that's my kinda God
Well Tom, to me, God is Ultimate Love. It is an intelligent, creative energy which is ultimate love.
If you've ever read Conversations With God...that's my kinda God
Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
well he is a monster, but cooler than the cookie monster
he can fly, even through bad turbulence
and he is made of spagetti
they call him: the Flying Spagetti Monster
well he is a monster, but cooler than the cookie monster
he can fly, even through bad turbulence
and he is made of spagetti
they call him: the Flying Spagetti Monster
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
Alanis Morisette
Alanis Morisette
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
SILVER Member
Has sharp edges
1,266 posts
Location: Stuck in the mire, USA
Has sharp edges
1,266 posts
Location: Stuck in the mire, USA
Posted:
I thought it was really funny....Alanis Morisette as god in dogma.....I mean I always figured god was a woman but Alanis Morisette? GEEZ
I thought it was really funny....Alanis Morisette as god in dogma.....I mean I always figured god was a woman but Alanis Morisette? GEEZ My ADD makes it so that.....Ooooo SHINY.....wanna go ride bikes....wait....where am I.....
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
For any system that believes in a God that is good but denies the fall (the world was first created perfect but man made it corrupt), it is very difficult to answer the question "Why would a good God have made a world in which bad things are required to happen?"
Of course, this question can dismissed by claiming that good and evil are merely human preferences with no basis in an external "morality." Thus, to complain about "suffering" being "bad" is like claiming that the gravity is "bad." Thus the question would really be "why does God do things that I don't like" to which one might reply "because God only does things that he likes, and you don't have the same likes/dislikes as God."
I don't agree with it, but it's an interesting theory.
For any system that believes in a God that is good but denies the fall (the world was first created perfect but man made it corrupt), it is very difficult to answer the question "Why would a good God have made a world in which bad things are required to happen?"
Of course, this question can dismissed by claiming that good and evil are merely human preferences with no basis in an external "morality." Thus, to complain about "suffering" being "bad" is like claiming that the gravity is "bad." Thus the question would really be "why does God do things that I don't like" to which one might reply "because God only does things that he likes, and you don't have the same likes/dislikes as God."
I don't agree with it, but it's an interesting theory.
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Posted:
Patriarch's idea on the fall intrigues me.
God creates Exhibit 1. This is called Earth. Why did an omnipotent and benevolent God create a place so full of suffering in the first place??
Versus (apparantly):
God creates Exhibit 1. This is called Earth. He then creates Exhibit 2. These are called Humans. Why did an omnipotent and benevolent God create such a flawed creature in the first place??
What's the difference? God still screwed things up pretty badly. I mean, if he created a flawed earth, then he screwed up. If he created a flawed species, then that's just as bad. I want to know how blaming humans themselves is possible, because if God created us and the world we live in, then it's HIS fault it's so screwed over.
Patriarch's idea on the fall intrigues me.
God creates Exhibit 1. This is called Earth. Why did an omnipotent and benevolent God create a place so full of suffering in the first place??
Versus (apparantly):
God creates Exhibit 1. This is called Earth. He then creates Exhibit 2. These are called Humans. Why did an omnipotent and benevolent God create such a flawed creature in the first place??
What's the difference? God still screwed things up pretty badly. I mean, if he created a flawed earth, then he screwed up. If he created a flawed species, then that's just as bad. I want to know how blaming humans themselves is possible, because if God created us and the world we live in, then it's HIS fault it's so screwed over.
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
maybe we aren't really as flawed as we think, i mean how long has humanity survived for? we seem to be doing pretty well me thinks.
maybe we aren't really as flawed as we think, i mean how long has humanity survived for? we seem to be doing pretty well me thinks.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
Is it possible for a creature to be created perfect, but with the ability to disobey God? Satan would be a good example of this.
Should the ability to disobey really be considered a flaw, or is freedom actually an essential part of being fully human?
Why didn't God create complicated puppets, that would be incapable of disobeying him? I've heard a few theories.
There are some that think God wanted people to love and obey him freely. Thus, he had to give them an option.
Another theory is based on the fact that God has characteristics besides creativity and perfection. He also has the characteristic of justice. When a thief is caught by the police and sent to jail, most of us would not consider the punishment to be an "evil" act on the part of the judge. In a similar but perfect way, the punishment that someone who disobeys God will experience will exactly fit their crimes, and they will glorify God for his justice.
In a similar way, God has the attributes of mercy, love, and self sacrifice. Since God allowed man the ability to become a sinner, God now has the opportunity to demonstrate mercy by forgiving man, love by accepting man even though he is a sinner, and self sacrifice by taking all the punishment that man deserves upon Himself. The ability to do wrong, therefore, is another way for us to glorify God (which was why He made us).
Of course, these lines of reasoning are based on an assumption of free will before the fall. There are plenty of people out there (including Christians) who think there is no such thing as free will. If that is true, then we actually ARE automatons who have no choice in the matter. Thus, the fact that there is suffering is not a “flaw,” everything is going exactly to plan. We have the illusion of “liking” or “disliking” certain things, but these emotions are just a demonstration of God’s creative ability. Pain is not a flaw… it’s a feature.
Thus, we have no real “right” to complain about the way things are any more than characters in a novel can complain about what the author has written. When we do complain, we only complain because God has made us do so.
If you believe that there is no free will, there’s no problem at all. If you believe in free will, the only question is whether free will is actually a defect.
If you decide to declare free will to be a defect, this is in effect a pronouncement of judgment on God’s design, which implies that you are more knowledgeable than Him as to how things “ought to be.” Essentially, the claim would be that “I am flawed, but I am also superior at knowing how to create things than God is.” This would mean that God was able to create something better than Himself, but to prove this claim you would actually have to be able to create something that is also a better creator than yourself, that will not have free will. This is a difficult task, since if it does not have free will it can only do what you make it do, and it will be hard to actually assign credit to the creation.
If free will is not a defect, then God did not make a mistake, and there is again no problem.
Is it possible for a creature to be created perfect, but with the ability to disobey God? Satan would be a good example of this.
Should the ability to disobey really be considered a flaw, or is freedom actually an essential part of being fully human?
Why didn't God create complicated puppets, that would be incapable of disobeying him? I've heard a few theories.
There are some that think God wanted people to love and obey him freely. Thus, he had to give them an option.
Another theory is based on the fact that God has characteristics besides creativity and perfection. He also has the characteristic of justice. When a thief is caught by the police and sent to jail, most of us would not consider the punishment to be an "evil" act on the part of the judge. In a similar but perfect way, the punishment that someone who disobeys God will experience will exactly fit their crimes, and they will glorify God for his justice.
In a similar way, God has the attributes of mercy, love, and self sacrifice. Since God allowed man the ability to become a sinner, God now has the opportunity to demonstrate mercy by forgiving man, love by accepting man even though he is a sinner, and self sacrifice by taking all the punishment that man deserves upon Himself. The ability to do wrong, therefore, is another way for us to glorify God (which was why He made us).
Of course, these lines of reasoning are based on an assumption of free will before the fall. There are plenty of people out there (including Christians) who think there is no such thing as free will. If that is true, then we actually ARE automatons who have no choice in the matter. Thus, the fact that there is suffering is not a “flaw,” everything is going exactly to plan. We have the illusion of “liking” or “disliking” certain things, but these emotions are just a demonstration of God’s creative ability. Pain is not a flaw… it’s a feature.
Thus, we have no real “right” to complain about the way things are any more than characters in a novel can complain about what the author has written. When we do complain, we only complain because God has made us do so.
If you believe that there is no free will, there’s no problem at all. If you believe in free will, the only question is whether free will is actually a defect.
If you decide to declare free will to be a defect, this is in effect a pronouncement of judgment on God’s design, which implies that you are more knowledgeable than Him as to how things “ought to be.” Essentially, the claim would be that “I am flawed, but I am also superior at knowing how to create things than God is.” This would mean that God was able to create something better than Himself, but to prove this claim you would actually have to be able to create something that is also a better creator than yourself, that will not have free will. This is a difficult task, since if it does not have free will it can only do what you make it do, and it will be hard to actually assign credit to the creation.
If free will is not a defect, then God did not make a mistake, and there is again no problem.
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
does having a child that grows to be a better person than you count?
does having a child that grows to be a better person than you count?
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
surprise! I was believing that one of the first things would be the comment that god has no gender... well, you proved me wrong... or stop! no! actually worms don't have a gender, right?
But any than that I do not get the meaning of the picture... ??? but as I'd have to look for Sym hiding out somewhere in a far away place to get a comment - maybe in the meantime and his absence someone who understood it may explain it to me?
why haven't I threaded in "Chat"?
In response to patriarch and sethis (all IMO's):
1st of all: I find it a little strange that you involve us into your debate (carried on from other threads) without giving an explanation according to the title of this thread. Every other is. How can I argue with you (if I'd want this) if I dunno whether you refer to a can with worms or the flying spaghetti monster, Alannis Morisette, or the green buck?
Patriarch: The conception of the "fall" could have been created in order to explain why god makes mankind suffer. Hebrews have the general conception of an angry, retaliate god, much more than Christians and much like Muslims. If you compare old and new testament you will certainly understand the difference. You may also take into account, that the Bible is a compilation of many books, that the old testament was initially written in order to display the history of the hebrews and was compiled between 800-1400.
Maybe it also holds a psychological momentum: If men are humble because they are in debt, they more likely will comply to what is asked from them.
So your answer is offering ONE possible approach to the reasoning of pain and suffering.
If good and bad are merely human preferences with no basis in an external "morality" then the entire conception of "sin" might just be manmade, by limited understanding of existence, much like the conception of "Satan" and "Hell".
Your examples all have as a foundation that one must accept the conception of "god" and that we are created by "him". As I said, I find no information that offers me your perception.
Do you want to tell me, that god's just a lab-assistant/ researcher on a higher dimension, that he's something like the programmer in "13th floor" or like the figure in "Matrix", or is it a different concept that you hold?
Sethis (same information missing): I referred you to "Bruce Almighty" before, I guess this should explain something? "One has to use some dark colours in order to make the light stand out"... maybe sometimes suffering is needed to bring out the best in people? And maybe it's just a matter of perception about the world and mankind "being so flawed and full of suffering and stupidity". If I look around I see a world of abundance and joy - just experiencing some hickups in distributing the pleasure, I can see very intelligent beings who seek and find their niche and quickly adapt to a changing environment - and if there is anything not going according to will, then willpower should be exercised and clarity established. Look at the difference of suffering between you and a 2 year old child... how do you deal with pain and how does the child? What do you experience as painful and what the child?
More questions:
- Is "good and bad" a valid concept, or is it based on personal opinion and experience?
- Is some rain necessary in order to appreciate sunshine?
- Is it necessary to believe in a higher force in order to survive/ get/ be happy?
- Is belief/ religion just a psychological trick to control each other or is it the very own mind that tries to put pieces/ evidence together and complete the missing links by it's own imagination?
- Why do have different cultures a different concept of what, or who "god" is?
- Would it be logical to assume, that "there is one force governing the universe"?
- Is "god" the (only) neverchanging element in the universe?
- Is it the desire of men, to create something that prevails? Or the desire of women to lean on something?
- IF there is a superior/ perfect being - why would it have to generate/ create anything in the first place? IF the higher being is to be considered perfect, then is there need for reflection in the first place? Why would it demand "worship" and "obedience"?
surprise! I was believing that one of the first things would be the comment that god has no gender... well, you proved me wrong... or stop! no! actually worms don't have a gender, right?But any than that I do not get the meaning of the picture... ??? but as I'd have to look for Sym hiding out somewhere in a far away place to get a comment - maybe in the meantime and his absence someone who understood it may explain it to me?
why haven't I threaded in "Chat"? In response to patriarch and sethis (all IMO's):
1st of all: I find it a little strange that you involve us into your debate (carried on from other threads) without giving an explanation according to the title of this thread. Every other is. How can I argue with you (if I'd want this) if I dunno whether you refer to a can with worms or the flying spaghetti monster, Alannis Morisette, or the green buck?
Patriarch: The conception of the "fall" could have been created in order to explain why god makes mankind suffer. Hebrews have the general conception of an angry, retaliate god, much more than Christians and much like Muslims. If you compare old and new testament you will certainly understand the difference. You may also take into account, that the Bible is a compilation of many books, that the old testament was initially written in order to display the history of the hebrews and was compiled between 800-1400.
Maybe it also holds a psychological momentum: If men are humble because they are in debt, they more likely will comply to what is asked from them.
So your answer is offering ONE possible approach to the reasoning of pain and suffering.
If good and bad are merely human preferences with no basis in an external "morality" then the entire conception of "sin" might just be manmade, by limited understanding of existence, much like the conception of "Satan" and "Hell".
Your examples all have as a foundation that one must accept the conception of "god" and that we are created by "him". As I said, I find no information that offers me your perception.
Do you want to tell me, that god's just a lab-assistant/ researcher on a higher dimension, that he's something like the programmer in "13th floor" or like the figure in "Matrix", or is it a different concept that you hold?
Sethis (same information missing): I referred you to "Bruce Almighty" before, I guess this should explain something? "One has to use some dark colours in order to make the light stand out"... maybe sometimes suffering is needed to bring out the best in people? And maybe it's just a matter of perception about the world and mankind "being so flawed and full of suffering and stupidity". If I look around I see a world of abundance and joy - just experiencing some hickups in distributing the pleasure, I can see very intelligent beings who seek and find their niche and quickly adapt to a changing environment - and if there is anything not going according to will, then willpower should be exercised and clarity established. Look at the difference of suffering between you and a 2 year old child... how do you deal with pain and how does the child? What do you experience as painful and what the child?
More questions:
- Is "good and bad" a valid concept, or is it based on personal opinion and experience?
- Is some rain necessary in order to appreciate sunshine?
- Is it necessary to believe in a higher force in order to survive/ get/ be happy?
- Is belief/ religion just a psychological trick to control each other or is it the very own mind that tries to put pieces/ evidence together and complete the missing links by it's own imagination?
- Why do have different cultures a different concept of what, or who "god" is?
- Would it be logical to assume, that "there is one force governing the universe"?
- Is "god" the (only) neverchanging element in the universe?
- Is it the desire of men, to create something that prevails? Or the desire of women to lean on something?
- IF there is a superior/ perfect being - why would it have to generate/ create anything in the first place? IF the higher being is to be considered perfect, then is there need for reflection in the first place? Why would it demand "worship" and "obedience"?
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
- Is "good and bad" a valid concept, or is it based on personal opinion and experience?
Opinion
- Is some rain necessary in order to appreciate sunshine?
I like the rain. But if you mean that evil is neccasery for good to exist then I disagree. We judge them relatively so a good deed in an evil world seems better. The deed would still be good in a good world, but would be less remarkable.
- Is it necessary to believe in a higher force in order to survive/ get/ be happy?
I believe in no conscious force greater than myself with the possible exception of OWD. Regardless I am perfectly happy. Happier, I would say, than many of my thiestic collegues.
- Is belief/ religion just a psychological trick to control each other or is it the very own mind that tries to put pieces/ evidence together and complete the missing links by it's own imagination?
A mixture of both, changing from person to person in ratio. The more institutionalised the persons beliefs the more it's simply a method of control. A completely innovative personal belief system may seem completely barmey but the person themselves isn't being controlled by the local church.
- Why do have different cultures a different concept of what, or who "god" is?
Because different cultures are different. *Shock!* (sorry)
- Would it be logical to assume, that "there is one force governing the universe"?
Perhaps. Modern physicists have the gut feeling that there is one underlying force governing all but there isn't any logical reason why that must be the case other than aethetics.
- Is "god" the (only) neverchanging element in the universe?
Who said "god" never changed?
- Is it the desire of men, to create something that prevails? Or the desire of women to lean on something?
It's wrong to generalise men and women in that way. I would say that every person in an individual regardless of their gender, so their desires are not linked by their genders.
- IF there is a superior/ perfect being - why would it have to generate/ create anything in the first place? IF the higher being is to be considered perfect, then is there need for reflection in the first place? Why would it demand "worship" and "obedience"?
I do believe you've just asked the $9 000 000 dollar question FireTom.
Why would god do this? Why would god do that? Why does god want me? Why should I call him god? Why should I even worship him?
Written by: FireTom
More questions:
- Is "good and bad" a valid concept, or is it based on personal opinion and experience?
Opinion
- Is some rain necessary in order to appreciate sunshine?
I like the rain. But if you mean that evil is neccasery for good to exist then I disagree. We judge them relatively so a good deed in an evil world seems better. The deed would still be good in a good world, but would be less remarkable.
- Is it necessary to believe in a higher force in order to survive/ get/ be happy?
I believe in no conscious force greater than myself with the possible exception of OWD. Regardless I am perfectly happy. Happier, I would say, than many of my thiestic collegues.
- Is belief/ religion just a psychological trick to control each other or is it the very own mind that tries to put pieces/ evidence together and complete the missing links by it's own imagination?
A mixture of both, changing from person to person in ratio. The more institutionalised the persons beliefs the more it's simply a method of control. A completely innovative personal belief system may seem completely barmey but the person themselves isn't being controlled by the local church.
- Why do have different cultures a different concept of what, or who "god" is?
Because different cultures are different. *Shock!* (sorry)
- Would it be logical to assume, that "there is one force governing the universe"?
Perhaps. Modern physicists have the gut feeling that there is one underlying force governing all but there isn't any logical reason why that must be the case other than aethetics.
- Is "god" the (only) neverchanging element in the universe?
Who said "god" never changed?
- Is it the desire of men, to create something that prevails? Or the desire of women to lean on something?
It's wrong to generalise men and women in that way. I would say that every person in an individual regardless of their gender, so their desires are not linked by their genders.
- IF there is a superior/ perfect being - why would it have to generate/ create anything in the first place? IF the higher being is to be considered perfect, then is there need for reflection in the first place? Why would it demand "worship" and "obedience"?
I do believe you've just asked the $9 000 000 dollar question FireTom.
Why would god do this? Why would god do that? Why does god want me? Why should I call him god? Why should I even worship him? According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
SILVER Member
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Posted:
God doesnt want us to worship Her/Him. We're here, IMO, to experience. Think about it, if you're God, all you've got is you. "BORING!" so you split yourself up into little bits and have all the experience from that. IMO we are "God". God is energy/love/everything. The good and the bad. The up and the down. EVERYTHING. We're just here to BE, not to DO. We can't lose in life. That's what is so great about it.
God doesnt want us to worship Her/Him. We're here, IMO, to experience. Think about it, if you're God, all you've got is you. "BORING!" so you split yourself up into little bits and have all the experience from that. IMO we are "God". God is energy/love/everything. The good and the bad. The up and the down. EVERYTHING. We're just here to BE, not to DO. We can't lose in life. That's what is so great about it.
Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
that sounds a bit like "meet joe black" where death wants to experience life. I love that concept. Joe, I like the way you see it.
that sounds a bit like "meet joe black" where death wants to experience life. I love that concept. Joe, I like the way you see it.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
Also: why would a perfect being expierience bordom?
EDITED_BY: jeff(fake) (1139228654)
Written by: jo_rhymesPersonally I don't think that's a helpful way to look at life. People can and do lose at life. We have to constantly fight to ensure that that number is kept as small as possible.
We're just here to BE, not to DO. We can't lose in life. That's what is so great about it.
Also: why would a perfect being expierience bordom?
EDITED_BY: jeff(fake) (1139228654)
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Posted:
Patriarch, I was more referring to the point that if God is benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient, then he KNOWS what every result of his actions in creating us will be. He KNEW that Adam and Eve would eat the apple. He KNEW Jesus' "sacrifice" would be ignored by a large proportion of the world. He KNEW that Satan would fall from heaven and be cast down.
What you seem to be saying is that we're either puppets, or we do evil. I reject that. I believe that we could have been created by God (hypothetically, because I don't believe in him/her) in a manner which would have made us more inclined to do good than to do evil, which is what the problem is. It is much easier to be evil than good.
You can have free will and still be consistently good.
Oh, and about the concept of Justice, then it's hardly justice if you're the one who made the person commit the crime in the first place. You made him/her like that, and you have a plan for their life. You know exactly what is going to happen to them, but you let them commit the crime and get locked up anyway. Would it be so hard to just say "Hey, don't do that man; you'll get arrested"?
God MADE us that way. How is it then any kind of achievement to say "Hey, I still love you... because you're functioning in exactly the way I designed you!" ?? That's like me beating a lion and starving it every day, then after walking into it's cage and getting my arm torn off saying "I still love you". It's your own damned fault the lion bit your arm off!!
FireTom: You look around and see a world of abundance and joy? Are you living on the same planet?? Just look at how consistently we are
up this planet. Just look at how much evil outweighs good on a daily basis. Not a day goes by without me reading about another murder, another lewd affair, another bombing, another child abuse case. The world is up, and you need to be a to get anywhere in it. In my opinion. 
Patriarch, I was more referring to the point that if God is benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient, then he KNOWS what every result of his actions in creating us will be. He KNEW that Adam and Eve would eat the apple. He KNEW Jesus' "sacrifice" would be ignored by a large proportion of the world. He KNEW that Satan would fall from heaven and be cast down.
What you seem to be saying is that we're either puppets, or we do evil. I reject that. I believe that we could have been created by God (hypothetically, because I don't believe in him/her) in a manner which would have made us more inclined to do good than to do evil, which is what the problem is. It is much easier to be evil than good.
You can have free will and still be consistently good.
Oh, and about the concept of Justice, then it's hardly justice if you're the one who made the person commit the crime in the first place. You made him/her like that, and you have a plan for their life. You know exactly what is going to happen to them, but you let them commit the crime and get locked up anyway. Would it be so hard to just say "Hey, don't do that man; you'll get arrested"?
Written by: Patriarch
God allowed man the ability to become a sinner
Written by: Patriarch
accepting man even though he is a sinner
God MADE us that way. How is it then any kind of achievement to say "Hey, I still love you... because you're functioning in exactly the way I designed you!" ?? That's like me beating a lion and starving it every day, then after walking into it's cage and getting my arm torn off saying "I still love you". It's your own damned fault the lion bit your arm off!!
FireTom: You look around and see a world of abundance and joy? Are you living on the same planet?? Just look at how consistently we are
up this planet. Just look at how much evil outweighs good on a daily basis. Not a day goes by without me reading about another murder, another lewd affair, another bombing, another child abuse case. The world is up, and you need to be a to get anywhere in it. In my opinion. After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
addict
663 posts
Location: Glasgow
663 posts
Location: Glasgow
Posted:
To me 'God' is whatever or whoever you want it to be. To take the Christian example 'God' could be some all powerful being that sees all and is everywhere but then it could be the sub-atomic particle that started the creation of the universe. They could also be one and the same thing or anything else for that matter. We don't know who or what 'God' is and probably will never know.
Sethis: I agree when you say that the world is messed up but in my view the small acts of kindness that never get talked about are just as important as the evil acts. In my view 'good' and 'evil' are linked in a circle where neither is more important or less active than the other. Besides, the media thrives on negativity, the reason why we see and hear about so much evil is that the media deliberatly put it there. And yes, I am a conspiricy theorist. The media now controls more of the world than the politicians do.
To me 'God' is whatever or whoever you want it to be. To take the Christian example 'God' could be some all powerful being that sees all and is everywhere but then it could be the sub-atomic particle that started the creation of the universe. They could also be one and the same thing or anything else for that matter. We don't know who or what 'God' is and probably will never know.
Sethis: I agree when you say that the world is messed up but in my view the small acts of kindness that never get talked about are just as important as the evil acts. In my view 'good' and 'evil' are linked in a circle where neither is more important or less active than the other. Besides, the media thrives on negativity, the reason why we see and hear about so much evil is that the media deliberatly put it there.
And yes, I am a conspiricy theorist. The media now controls more of the world than the politicians do. Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't
SILVER Member
Has sharp edges
1,266 posts
Location: Stuck in the mire, USA
Has sharp edges
1,266 posts
Location: Stuck in the mire, USA
Posted:
ever heard the saying "you just opened a can of worms"
Written by: FireTom
But any than that I do not get the meaning of the picture... ??? but as I'd have to look for Sym hiding out somewhere in a far away place to get a comment - maybe in the meantime and his absence someone who understood it may explain it to me?
ever heard the saying "you just opened a can of worms"
My ADD makes it so that.....Ooooo SHINY.....wanna go ride bikes....wait....where am I.....
SILVER Member
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Posted:
What is "success"? What is "failure"? If a relationship fails is it because you split up with a person, or because you did not learn from it?
What I'm saying is that you cannot fail.
Written by: jeff(fake)
People can and do lose at life.
What is "success"? What is "failure"? If a relationship fails is it because you split up with a person, or because you did not learn from it?
What I'm saying is that you cannot fail.
Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
Sethis, your post blends free will and predestination too much for me to give a real reply. You seem to suggest that God could have made us free to choose, but made us always choose to do good. While it may be true that God can do something such as create a triangle that is also not a triangle, I think this is beyond our ability to comprehend and discuss.
However, an issue we can adress is by what standard you are judging things to be "good" and "evil." By what standard are you deciding that suffering is "evil?" Is it not possible to see this world as being all "good?" If you've read much C.S. Lewis, you might have an idea where I'm going with this.
Sethis, your post blends free will and predestination too much for me to give a real reply. You seem to suggest that God could have made us free to choose, but made us always choose to do good. While it may be true that God can do something such as create a triangle that is also not a triangle, I think this is beyond our ability to comprehend and discuss.
However, an issue we can adress is by what standard you are judging things to be "good" and "evil." By what standard are you deciding that suffering is "evil?" Is it not possible to see this world as being all "good?" If you've read much C.S. Lewis, you might have an idea where I'm going with this.
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
What will either of us have gained if we get swatted by a truck crossing the road tonight?
Written by: jo_rhymesWritten by: jeff(fake)
People can and do lose at life.
What is "success"? What is "failure"? If a relationship fails is it because you split up with a person, or because you did not learn from it?
What I'm saying is that you cannot fail.
What will either of us have gained if we get swatted by a truck crossing the road tonight?
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
@ Loki: no, never heard that saying, but get the idea of what it means...
@ Spork: Hmmm, I kinda was asking what you perceive "god" to be... But I follow up on what you said to Sethis. Just because "bad" is all over the papers, doesn't mean that "good" is on holiday...
@ Sethis: Unless this connection ends in a parallel - universe, we sure share the same planet. Just you are in the UK right now and I am in India... I think that good and evil pretty much balance each other, but also follow up on what you said to Patriarch. If one is omnipotent AND perfect, one KNOWS what is going to happen when putting a tree somewhere in the garden and say "you can do whatever you like but keep away from these fruits." I am sure that every parent (no matter how nice the childrens are) is asking for trouble by just making this statement.
@ jeff: well, but how do you actually measure "bad" if there is nothing to compare it with? i.e. how can a shadow be casted, if there's no light? And if it's the same god everybody is talking about (and I reckon they do) - how comes they see him very different? Is the result of observation depending on the observer? But certainly I oppose your statement that "desires are not linked by their genders"... generally they are...
@ jo: I like what you're saying. Basically even if I'd loose everything I'd gain the experience how that feels like... Hence one has to DO something in order to sustain oneself... (nobody is bringing the groceries for free - unfortunately). I've heard that concept (of god wanting to experience himself) before - not sure about boredom as a motif though, but curiosity would be fair enough for me... "Ultimate love" - I perceive LOVE to be one of the greatest misunderstandings of wo/mankind and consisting of as many definitions like, for say the word "set" (464 that is)... WHICH love are YOU referring to?
and Mr Majestik: do you want to imply that the FSM created mankind, taking into account, or even hoping that we (one day) will be "better" FSM's than he is?
*******************
you're fast guys.... are you ignoring me, patriarch?
@jeff: well your question is completely hypothetical and fictuous... but maybe at least ONE of those two will be surprised that the universe decided to take the highest possible conscious force (after OWD maybe) and to smite it with an ordinary truck... and question himself for a split second whether it was conscious to cross that road without looking right and left...
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1139239321)
@ Loki: no, never heard that saying, but get the idea of what it means...
@ Spork: Hmmm, I kinda was asking what you perceive "god" to be...
But I follow up on what you said to Sethis. Just because "bad" is all over the papers, doesn't mean that "good" is on holiday...@ Sethis: Unless this connection ends in a parallel - universe, we sure share the same planet. Just you are in the UK right now and I am in India... I think that good and evil pretty much balance each other, but also follow up on what you said to Patriarch. If one is omnipotent AND perfect, one KNOWS what is going to happen when putting a tree somewhere in the garden and say "you can do whatever you like but keep away from these fruits." I am sure that every parent (no matter how nice the childrens are) is asking for trouble by just making this statement.
@ jeff: well, but how do you actually measure "bad" if there is nothing to compare it with? i.e. how can a shadow be casted, if there's no light? And if it's the same god everybody is talking about (and I reckon they do) - how comes they see him very different? Is the result of observation depending on the observer? But certainly I oppose your statement that "desires are not linked by their genders"... generally they are...
@ jo: I like what you're saying. Basically even if I'd loose everything I'd gain the experience how that feels like... Hence one has to DO something in order to sustain oneself... (nobody is bringing the groceries for free - unfortunately). I've heard that concept (of god wanting to experience himself) before - not sure about boredom as a motif though, but curiosity would be fair enough for me... "Ultimate love" - I perceive LOVE to be one of the greatest misunderstandings of wo/mankind and consisting of as many definitions like, for say the word "set" (464 that is)... WHICH love are YOU referring to?
and Mr Majestik: do you want to imply that the FSM created mankind, taking into account, or even hoping that we (one day) will be "better" FSM's than he is?
*******************
you're fast guys....
are you ignoring me, patriarch?@jeff: well your question is completely hypothetical and fictuous... but maybe at least ONE of those two will be surprised that the universe decided to take the highest possible conscious force (after OWD maybe) and to smite it with an ordinary truck... and question himself for a split second whether it was conscious to cross that road without looking right and left...
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1139239321)
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
The difference between men and women has been greatly exaggerated. I mean that psychologically rather than physically. There are some predispositions, such as women being more likely to be sexually attracted to men rather than other women, but saying that men psychologically prefer something permanent and women prefer something to lean on is just playing amature psychoanalyist with age old preconceptions.
Written by: FireTomAs to the subject of Badness, I think that it is always going to suck to bang your toe. The strange thing about human existance is that we can all agree largely on what is good and bad. It's hardwired into us. It could have been completely different, but it wasn't.
@ jeff: well, but how do you actually measure "bad" if there is nothing to compare it with? i.e. how can a shadow be casted, if there's no light? And if it's the same god everybody is talking about (and I reckon they do) - how comes they see him very different? Is the result of observation depending on the observer? But certainly I oppose your statement that "desires are not linked by their genders"... generally they are...
The difference between men and women has been greatly exaggerated. I mean that psychologically rather than physically. There are some predispositions, such as women being more likely to be sexually attracted to men rather than other women, but saying that men psychologically prefer something permanent and women prefer something to lean on is just playing amature psychoanalyist with age old preconceptions.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
SILVER Member
Has sharp edges
1,266 posts
Location: Stuck in the mire, USA
Has sharp edges
1,266 posts
Location: Stuck in the mire, USA
Posted:
yeah I know jo.....FireTom didnt get it and asked for an explanation thats why I quoted him ....you know.....its kinda right above what I said
yeah I know jo.....FireTom didnt get it and asked for an explanation thats why I quoted him ....you know.....its kinda right above what I said My ADD makes it so that.....Ooooo SHINY.....wanna go ride bikes....wait....where am I.....
GOLD Member
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA
Posted:
Oh god....
Well I'm not a free-will person... I think it follows from Aristotle's Prime Mover argument if you accept that sort of thing, maybe with a little Leibniz PSR thrown in: namely "Everything has a cause, and this can't go on ad finitum so there had to be a first cause that is itself uncaused". Which seems to completely negate itself by saying everything has a cause... EXCEPT for this thing, which is just passing the buck to God as I call it. On top of that, if you have God as a necessary being, and everything else as contingent beings, you have the whole issue of whether or not a necessary being CAN make a contingent being as logically he could only make more necessary beings, himself being necessary and thus everything he does being necessary because of its parent element's necessariness (I just made a new word!).
Then there's the argument from Myth: that being that every myth mirrors every other one, ie we usually have the sky father in a sacred marriage with the earth mother (or the two combined into one monotheistic creator God) who have a divine child who then goes on to overthrow the father (IE Christianity to Judaism, Zeus to Chronos, Odin to... well you get the picture). Theres the similarity between linguistic elements that point to similar origins (for instance, in the Flood story of Greek Mythology the father of the lone surviving human was named Iebetros, and Noah's pops name was Jebeth I believe... which translated are the same name)... There's just too much overlap between Myth and religion for me to believe any of it objectively.
Any the tri-omni definition... well that's just self-negating too. Like the "Can God make a stone so heavy he can't lift it" question, or "Can God be Evil", etc. etc. So I throw that idea out categorically. And then theres the whole "If God is unchanging then how did he create, as this seems to imply changing from one state to another (not creating to creating)". Unless he is continuously creating, creating being his only REAL function and thus lowering your God to a point of "being" and ONLY "being", which in turn again makes everything necessary and fixed.
I think God is a nice etymology (simple explanation, like Santa Clause). Science is a nicer etymology now a days and explains more, though it is still based on reasoning backwards from what we can measure now.
So for me, I don't think the anthropomorphic God makes sense. I've heard lots of theories and definitions and still havn't found one a think makes sense. Which is why I'm agnostic. Because an atheist position is only just as plausable. One thing I am sure about IMO is that God ain't anything like me. Im more inclined to think of him as a "force" just like gravity, etc. at the moment.
If he was like me, I'd kick him in the nads for the problem of evil. Just my 2 cents. I'd rather be free of him completely (a dead God as Nietzche would have it) than be religious and devoted and thankful to him. That's part of a parent's obligation to the next generation: to eventually step aside and die so that they might live.
Oh god....
Well I'm not a free-will person... I think it follows from Aristotle's Prime Mover argument if you accept that sort of thing, maybe with a little Leibniz PSR thrown in: namely "Everything has a cause, and this can't go on ad finitum so there had to be a first cause that is itself uncaused". Which seems to completely negate itself by saying everything has a cause... EXCEPT for this thing, which is just passing the buck to God as I call it. On top of that, if you have God as a necessary being, and everything else as contingent beings, you have the whole issue of whether or not a necessary being CAN make a contingent being as logically he could only make more necessary beings, himself being necessary and thus everything he does being necessary because of its parent element's necessariness (I just made a new word!).
Then there's the argument from Myth: that being that every myth mirrors every other one, ie we usually have the sky father in a sacred marriage with the earth mother (or the two combined into one monotheistic creator God) who have a divine child who then goes on to overthrow the father (IE Christianity to Judaism, Zeus to Chronos, Odin to... well you get the picture). Theres the similarity between linguistic elements that point to similar origins (for instance, in the Flood story of Greek Mythology the father of the lone surviving human was named Iebetros, and Noah's pops name was Jebeth I believe... which translated are the same name)... There's just too much overlap between Myth and religion for me to believe any of it objectively.
Any the tri-omni definition... well that's just self-negating too. Like the "Can God make a stone so heavy he can't lift it" question, or "Can God be Evil", etc. etc. So I throw that idea out categorically. And then theres the whole "If God is unchanging then how did he create, as this seems to imply changing from one state to another (not creating to creating)". Unless he is continuously creating, creating being his only REAL function and thus lowering your God to a point of "being" and ONLY "being", which in turn again makes everything necessary and fixed.
I think God is a nice etymology (simple explanation, like Santa Clause). Science is a nicer etymology now a days and explains more, though it is still based on reasoning backwards from what we can measure now.
So for me, I don't think the anthropomorphic God makes sense. I've heard lots of theories and definitions and still havn't found one a think makes sense. Which is why I'm agnostic. Because an atheist position is only just as plausable. One thing I am sure about IMO is that God ain't anything like me. Im more inclined to think of him as a "force" just like gravity, etc. at the moment.
If he was like me, I'd kick him in the nads for the problem of evil. Just my 2 cents. I'd rather be free of him completely (a dead God as Nietzche would have it) than be religious and devoted and thankful to him. That's part of a parent's obligation to the next generation: to eventually step aside and die so that they might live.
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Posted:
Wahay! I second more or less everything i8beefy2 just said!
Well done that man. Have a piece of cheese.
Wahay! I second more or less everything i8beefy2 just said!
Well done that man. Have a piece of cheese.
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
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