Forums > Social Discussion > Does Violence solve anything?

Posted: 22nd Jun 2005
I don't know that violence is ever truly justified, but that depends on what exactly justice is, too. But stories like you have are not at all uncommon. To know if something is justified depends on your beliefs in part.

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

Posted: 22nd Jun 2005

Written by: Spanner

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but I was 3 months pregnant and she'd punched me in the stomach. It wasn't just my safety she was threatening, but that of my unborn child.

So I grabbed her and gave her a right hook.

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oh my lord.

I would have done the same thing if I was in your situation, Im not a violent person or anything either, but there is just somethings people should NEVER do, and thats one of them.

I bet your insticnt just kicked in.

I was bullied by a 11 year old when I was 6 and I would get picked on at school all the time and it was awful. My dad took me to karate classes and I learnt how to defend myself cause I had started to refuse to go to school and everything. Then one arvo after school my little brother and I were playing in the school playgorund (he was only 4 at the time and we lived right across from the school so we played there all the time.)
The bully came up to us on his bike and started pushing my little brother around.

so I smacked him in the mouth and split his lip.

he didnt do it ever again.

I couldnt be in a fight now cause it goes against everything I believe in. But my child will be taught self defence.

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

Posted: 22nd Jun 2005
I get really frustrated by teachers who tell people to ignore bullies. Eventually when the person being bullied snaps and hits back like Sethis, Spanner and Valura did, in a school situation, they tend to get in MUCH more trouble than the bully because they do visible and sometimes serious damage.



In grade 7 to 9 at my school, there was a smallish lebanese kid (not being racist) who would harrass everyone, yell at them, run into them, slap them, try and get them into trouble in various ways etc... If anyone did anything that he didn't like, his older cousins and brothers and their friends would happily threaten to bash them. On day in grade 9 he decided to ram me into a classroom door while I was walking through the corridor. I stopped and decided to slap him for all of the he'd given me over the years, because if I punched him I would've done too much damage due to my size and martial arts training... So I slapped him. He was kindof shocked and tried to hit back, and missed and a teacher made us stop there. We were both internally suspended for it. Afterwards, (surprise surprise) his extended family were supposedly out to get me. The Grade Supervisor heard about it somehow and called us in to his office for a talk... The lebanese kid denied it at first, then simply stated, "That's how we do things where we come from." I had to leave the office then, and I assume he went through quite a lot of being talked at... I don't think he really harassed anyone since. I'm not too sure though because I left the school during the first term of grade 10.



I'm still shocked about his statement of "That's how we do things where we come from." The family moved to Australia to escape the violence, but they continue it here.

Posted: 22nd Jun 2005
Back in 6th grade, I was a pretty hardcore looser, so I got picked on a lot. Two kids in particular weren't shy about using unprovoked violence. After that year, I stopped being so weird, and things got better for me, but I was still a looser because I was incredably anoying. Now I'm the nearest thing to popular an alternative kid can be, which is kinda weird, but is good because nobody who knows me wants to beat me up. So, I don't really know if violence is ever justified, because I've never really had to be violent. It's kinda wierd that I wasn't picked on more because I really was a huge looser, but I really didn't have it very bad at all.

-James

"How do you know if you're happy or sad without a mask? Or angry? Or ready for dessert?"

Posted: 22nd Jun 2005
I am not a believer in violence as a solution, yet I have to say I have had an expereince similar to the ones you guys are recounting.



I was beaten on a pretty much regular basis for quite a while, by someone in my household. I did not strike back, for various reasons, being a peaceful non violent pacifist one of them.Sometimes I would just remove myself fom the situation if I could. But one day he threw something at me, and it hit me in the head, cut me open and knocked me on my ass. I got up literally seeing red, bleeding profusely, and attacked him viciously. I hit him, hard, repeatedly. Then I left and wandered the streets , miserable. My hands were swollen and bruised the next day.



I was never hit again.



What that section of the story doesn't tell you is the shame I felt at having hurt another human being, and the shame I felt for losing control. I was sick in my heart for a very long time. I have never looked at my hands the same way since. What had been healing tools had become weapons.

It took a long time to find the balance again.

So I dont recommend it. I guess, defending someone against an attack is the one time it is even an option in my opinion. But maybe avoidance or ? would still be better.

I am a fast runner too!

wherever you go, there you are

Posted: 22nd Jun 2005
My View:
They threaten you: Threaten them.
They hit you: Grab them, threaten them.
They do it again: Punch them
They do it again: Kick them
They do it again (they'd have to bve pretty strong to kepe going): Break something.
They continue: Sic em.

Yes i am violent and should go to anger management

.:Pink Exocutioner:.

I am Jack's Raging Bile Duct...

Loving you from the deepest part of my loins.

Posted: 22nd Jun 2005
i dont think violence solves everything, but ot can solve some aspects of situations. the bullying stories show how it stopped their bullying, but it didnt solve the entire situation. the kids doing the bullying had reasons, and those need to be addressed. maybe when the bullying was solved for you the bully went and picked on someone else instead, so the problem wasnt really solved.
i was picked on as a kid, had friends turn very nasty. older bro and sis pretty merciless. step father not exactly a pacifist. so i know what its like to be bullied. sadly i was also a bully. i picked on other kids and lashed out. it was my way of dealing with the whole situation. sometimes when someone would fight back, it just made it more fun. now i try to be very peaceful and find alternative solutions to situations and find the real cause of them.

so i think maybe violence can solve the immediate problem, but to actually find a resolution a different approach is prolly needed.

It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
violence tends to solve not the problem, but, to a degree, the effects of that problem, IMHO.

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
How many times will you let a mugger punch you in the face while trying to rob you before you punch him back?

I dont believe in violence either. but i wouldnt curl up into fetal position and hope he goes away if i'm being attacked. if i felt my life was in danger i wouldnt hesitate to open up the leather man i use to open my poi quicklinks either

Fair luna bright, fair luna moon
it shines at night but fades too soon
fair luna moon, fair luna bright
forever we dance
we dance under starlight

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
I think most agree that in the immediate sense, there are times when a violent response is appropriate when faced with a violent situation... So, yeah, defend yourself. If you can. But know that is not a real solution, just a short term safety measure.



Like in your mugging example, fine, hit the guy back, knife him, whatever... Immediate problem solved, or at least lessened, assuming he does not pull out a gun and just kill you. But how are you going to go about making the street you live on a safer place in the long term? How would you change things so you could prevent a mugging from arising in the first place? Is there anything which would have made it possible for the mugger to chose non-violence? Could their needs have been met in a better way, and as a society could we show them that way? What made those individuals we mentionned into bullies? Is there a point where we can prevent it?



These are the solutions we really need to find/create.



Long, long before the attack there is a history to the violence. Understanding it , we may discover a transformative power that is not based on aggression.



If you rely on strength to dominate, violence to rule, it is just a matter of how long til someone comes along who is stronger than you. The underlying problem remains, and you will never be secure.



Gandi had effective, interesting pacifist methods of problem solving, even when faced with violent scenarios. The Dukhabors in Russia did also. There are others...We do have some examples to work with...

wherever you go, there you are

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
Yes, I agree with most of the points made above. My sympathies to everyone who has ever been bullied or beaten up, because I know that some people have it worse than me. I have never "Lost" a fight, because I was always strong and knew some basic moves (Thanks Dad!) before I even started school, things like don't punch people in the face cos you'll be more likely to break your fist. Very basic defence stuff, but it's worked in every fight I've been in.

I echo Valura's point about Spanner's experience: There are some lines you just don't cross. And I'd probably agree with Sakura's ladder of progressive violence, although I'd kick them before I punched them...

Rowanlee is also correct that peaceful solutions to the root of the problem work better than violence, but if someone comes at me with a knife I'm not going to moralise about his terrible childhood, I'm going to disarm him, put him down on his ass and then phone the police. The peaceful resolutions work best, but sometimes if you're being shown agression there is literally no other option. Even running sometimes doesn't work. What if you're in a crowd? Or you're defending a child? It is in these situations that I'd suggest that everyone should know how to defend themselves. I'm not suggesting that you damage anyone, simply that you can stop an attack. Judo is good, because not only does it *not* depend on strength, there is very little risk of damage as it focuses on throws and restraining moves.

So my answer to Rowanlee would be that I do not intend to "Rule" or "Dominate" anyone, just to defend myself and others. (Read my sig to get the general gist)

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
Depends on the situation... I have been told that I'm an angry and violent person by a few people... I dunno...

The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
i am yet to have gotten into a fist fight, and hope to keep it that way, but have, fairly recently been, for want of a better word, attacked. was a few weeks ago now i was packing up, about to leave our gathering, about 10min after most everyone else had left, when someone, not a twirler, who tis best not to name, kicked my candle over, while i was packing my bag. it rolled off down a small hill / mound. he went to pick it up. i continued to pack my bag and felt something heavy and hard hit my face. looked down. saw my candle.

this was no small candle. its a 20-30cm high, citronella garden candle in a ceramic pot. new. almost full.

this was my first blood nose, second blood like.

although it was tough, i did manage to not try and hurt him, did give him a serve verbally, but that was short lived.

i have not seen him since, but am not sure how i would react if indeed i do meet him again. it was not an easy thing to do, not lash out, respond in kind, or even be able to defend myself. i do not want to meet him again, in fear of my own reaction, but to allow him to hurt me like that, unprovoked, and not get any justice seems wrong.

i dont want to cause hurt. but i do want a new candle.



sometimes, to cause pain to someone does seem the only logical way out, to find a way around this is very hard, but not impossible, but none the less, i have no idea what it could be in instances as mentioned above.

there are some exceptions though, under different circumstances, where to be hurt is inexcusable.

IMHO

cheers, pete

"you know there are no trophys for doing silly things in real life yeah pete?" said ant "you wont get a 'listened to ride of the valkyries all the way to vietnam' trophy"

*proud owner of the very cute fire_spinning_angel, birgit and neon shaolin*

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
I think starting violence is not justified. But if other people decide to use it and there is no effective alternative available, defending yourself or other people is justified.

Like with school bullies, the non-violent alternative might be the school punishing them, but that's never going to work properly cause teachers can't look everywhere and probably shouldn't punish people just because of accusations. Plus in the case of bullies picking on outsiders, the outsider will probably not get people to speak up for them.

I'd even justify violence for pure bullying without physical force because I've seen what it can do to people, it can make them physically and mentally sick or scared enough to be unable to go to school/work etc.

I've been in a situation with an aggressive ex-boyfriend who threatened to hit/kill/(pick your threat) me on various occasions, and if he'd ever dared to actually do it instead of just scaring me I wouldn't have been a pacifist about it. I was scared enough to consider the kitchen knife (fair enough given that he was considering glass bottles), and I am very glad I managed to throw him out before he actually did hit me, I think it was quite a close one. I don't think there should be any tolerance for domestic violence, so while I can understand Rowanlee for feeling dirty about it I think it was the right thing to do.

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
I dont like violence in any form. I dont tend to resort to it myself, and feel most uncomfortable when other people do, even when I'm not involved.

I do feel however that it is sometimes necessary, because, lets face it, some people just need a wake-up smack sometimes.

The only situations where I have had to resort to violence I warned the offending persons a total of three times before violence was resorted to, telling them specifically, " If you do that again I am going to hurt you." If you tell someone that three times and they persist, they are asking to be punished, you are merely fulfulling their request.

Of coarse, all effort should be made to avoid violence, but the times in my past where I have been violent, although I am not proud of them and think that maybe I could have handled myself a bit better, I feel were completely justified.

"I want to know if you can see beauty even when it's not pretty, every day,and if you can source your own life from its presence.." - Oriah Mountain Dreamer

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
violence is natural.

"is optimism in austria just a lack of information?"
-Alfred Dorfer

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
Violence can solve things but there are usually far better ways.
...then again the other methods aren't usually as satisfying!

"Whats wrong with the cat?" - Mrs Schrödinger

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
violence can certainly solve some things, but not others.

and sometimes violence leads to a final solution, but often it gives you only a temporary one.

I find intimidation is generally much safer and has a longer lasting effect. And it is suprising how even a significantly smaller person can ward off a larger person when a particular attitude is projected.

If you beat up someone, you have a fair chance of him collecting some outraged buddies and them coming back for you. Once you prove more than a match for one person, it is suddenly fair for people to gang up on you.

If you scare them off instead, they aren't going to do much more than call you names behind your back in retaliation.

The catch is though - you have to be so confident of your ability to intimidate AND your ability to back yourself up physically for this to be convincing, that really the person should be scared anyway.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
I got bullied really really really badly to the point of changing schools a few times because it got so bad.
I never once even thought of hitting back let alone ever did. Maybe it would have helped if i did but i could not bring my self to harm some else. I really don't think i have it in me to physically fight. My schools always just told me to ignore it until i went to private school where they said 'well you obviously aren't trying to fit in' and sent me to a psychiatrist because it was obviously my fault i was bullied but thats a seperate issue that i could rant about for years!

Only once have I ever hit someone and that was because they + their friend tried to mug me. I was on my own, it was dark, they had been shouting comments at me and then i felt someone grab me. I spun round, hit them in the face and ran for my life. I felt awful afterwards. Even though it was in defence i still felt bad for hitting someone.

I can see that in some situations violence might be the only way out but it would only ever be a very last resort for me.

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005

Written by: vanize

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If you beat up someone, you have a fair chance of him collecting some outraged buddies and them coming back for you. Once you prove more than a match for one person, it is suddenly fair for people to gang up on you.

If you scare them off instead, they aren't going to do much more than call you names behind your back in retaliation.

---

And here we touch upon one of the main problems with violence - escalation.

I think violence should only be used as a last resort for several reasons. 1) Lack of control. It is surprisingly easy to kill someone - one sufficiently strong, unlucky punch can break a neck. I'd rather not put myself in the position where that could be a possibility either for me, or someone else. 2) Responsibility. I have a responsibility to my loved ones to not get myself killed or arrested (See point 1). 3) Legalities. 'Reasonable force' is not an easily defined term - better to avoid straying near that line altogther. 4) Escalation - see posts by vanize, rowanlee etc.

I agree with vanize's intimidation strategy. Confusion also works quite well. Even confident aggressive people are likely to think twice if they're confronted by someone who seems on the wrong side of psychotic. Or if you fail to react to something that would be expected to hurt. A drunken chav once threw a traffic cone at my head and I knew I was way too drunk to get into a fight. So I took it, didn't flinch and smiled creepily at him. It went no further.

But obviously, if someone's seriously going to harm you, you should defend yourself if you can. Turn the other cheek, and people will probably slap that one too. It's just important to be aware of the risks if you're forced into a situation. Martial arts are good for this because they also teach you control and humility (use your powers for good little grasshopper etc.). I recommend Tai Chi, jiu jitsu, judo or any related grappling, practical arts for people who are interested.

All this being said, the one thing that would send me right over the edge is if someone hurt my girlfriend. I'm pretty sure that despite my better judgment, I would go absolutely f****ng mental.

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
Funny ed209, a girlfriend of mine used to use the Confusion tactic to avoid muggings in the streets of London.She would come home from the bar alone, flapping her arms madly and quacking like a duck as loud as she could, darting side to side on the road.. She was just a wee thing, with funny cooured hair, but people totally kept their distance! lol

she never did get mugged. Her theory was if you seem to be the most dangerous nutter all the other nutters will keep their distance...
( I am not actually recommending that people!)

Sethis, sorry if that came across as a personal suggestion. Not my intention. Like all of you I get that violence is useful at times, though regrettable. And I dont mean to suggest you are into domination;-) and I did read your byline...


I was just mentally extending the debate to consider where an attitude of aggression takes a society, in general.

wherever you go, there you are

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
"No one likes to fight a madman"

- The Dog, Footrot Flats



I was watching Top Gear the other day, and there was a comedian on the show (can not, for the life of me, remember his name), that said that his Dad had the best tactic for avoiding road rage... He said soething along the lines of:



"My father discovered the best way to get rid of road rage drivers. He found that as long as you started the talking, and said the most bizare and most random thing possible, the bloke would forget it because of his confusion -



For examaple, he cut across someone on the road, and the bloke chased him till he had to pull over. As soon as he did, he rolled down the window and said: "Ah! You! If it wasnt people like you, the Millenium Dome would still be open" and the other bloke went "What!?", and my Dad went "You know what you did" and drove off"



Of course, It was much funnier at the time
EDITED_BY: Fine_Rabid_Dog (1119547442)

The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005


Exactly! Non-sequiturs are the new punching...

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
here is my stupidly simplistic answer...

in the short term - yes,

in the long term - no.

discuss.

I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
Violance creates more violance.

In dublin the protestants and catholics dislike each other. they are violent towards each other.
It escalates.
Now they stand on opposite sides of the same street hurling abuse at each other and throwing objects over the heads of primery school children and their mothers taking them to school.

When someone attacks you and you fight back, thats not violance, and thats not bad.
When your so blinded by hatered that you'll do anything to hurt another human being, thats violence, and thats bad.

Property of Fine_Rabid_Dog

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005




Really? You sure about that?!







Tis ok... I think the problem you have horrendously simplified Bunny actually happens in the North of Ireland - around Belfast direction, as opposed to the mean streets of Dublin.



In Dublin, they drink and have fun.



Up north, we have 'other ways' of settling disputes.



(The primary school incident which you referred to was Holy Cross Primary School and I'm not going to go into the various reasons for that dispute now - suffice to say it was a pathetic example of humanity, where two groups of equally irresponsible adults saw fit to further damage the reputation of this country)



Anyways... I was trying to avoid this discussion, but since I'm here now...



People aged in their 20s and 30s (and younger) in Northern Ireland have grown up with violence.

We saw it on the news every night, many people had it brought into their homes through fathers and brothers getting caught up with the wrong crowd... and many have, unfortunately, become desensitised to it.



We have the bar fights that are seen in cities across the UK - only with sectarianism, and now racism, inflaming the melee.



I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but the effect of this constant bombardment of aggression is that every right-minded, sensible young person I know detests violence.



That's not to say we can't argue. We can. And in my experience, we argue more passionately than people from many other countries... but most people I know here see that as a good thing. Arguing is a useful, and necessary, vent - and we have them (and sometimes enjoy them) on the complete understanding that once the argument is finished, it is finished and no damage done.



Lifting a hand (or foot, or blunt object) in anger, however, is a different thing. It is 'uncool'. It is a shameful display of a lack of self-restraint. We have watched the morons fighting on television for years... so if a healthy argument can't resolve differences, then the right thing to do is to agree to differ and walk away from the issue.



I instantly lose respect for anyone who resorts to lifting their hand in anger. It is a sign, to me, that that person is not in control of themselves, or lacks the ability to express themselves with their vocabulary.



Ahem. Sorry. This has become a bit of a personal rant, and not really relevant.



No, I don't think violence, or even the threat of violence, solves anything. I believe it is a weak response by individuals who, for whatever reason, lose the ability to communicate effectively.



However, there are two particularly cloudy areas:



1. Bullying.

As people have already described, fighting back against a bully can work - and that's fantastic. However, it has also been proven that fighting back can just make the situation worse... I think each case must be considered individually, with the safety of the victim taking top priority.



2. Domestic Violence.

It's such a crap term for what is essentially someone abusing the love and trust of their partner. Often there is more than physical violence, there is the continual mental abuses which permits the physical attacks to occur (through constant reinforcement of that person's inadequacies and weaknesses).

In this situation the abuser feels that violence does resolve the issue (their partner 'shuts up' or 'does what they're told'), but of course, that resolution is at high cost.

So how can the woman (or man) fight back? Like bullying, each case is different, and the victim must stand up against mental torture and violence.

Communicating or physically fighting back can either be impossible, or make things much worse... always, the only way out from this chain of abuse is to leave (a simple solution, which, I believe, can be difficult to see at the time).





In my mind there is no justification for violence... not in the short-term or long-term.



(Muh, but then, (and just to contradict myself), I do agree with self-defence, when possible. Self-defence, btw, is not violence... it is blocking attacks and making it possible to escape. My karate sensei taught me the best karate move is to run - only retaliate when forced)





We are all human. We are all the same. We have no reason to harm one another.
EDITED_BY: Firepoise (1119559528)

Getting to the other side

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
Now worries, Rowanlee, I didn't take it personally. I just felt like stating a couple of examples where running isn't an option.

So now we have several "Kinds" of violence. Short Term/Long Term as well as the difference between "Personal" violence and "Group Violence".

Group violence is like the (sorry) situation in N.Ireland. And I have yet to come up a valid reason as to why this kind of violence might be considered good. Although maybe the benefit is a generation of people who hate violence? I'm not saying that this justifies the conflict, but it is a definate upside.

I think that there is no possible downside to KNOWING how to fight, even if you never have to use that knowledge. Benefits include:

1. Projecting confidence. You can avoid a fight if you look confident that you'll win.

2. Reducing the possibilities of accidents. Like Ed's point, it is very easy to do permanent damage. If you know how to fight then you can avoid this and cause non-permanent damage (lessening the possible charges against you, rather than out of consideration of your opponant).

3. It keeps you fit and gives you a bit of discipline. God knows I could use some discipline, I'm a lazy Bugger.

Firepoise, I get the general impression that the violence in Ireland has been getting better. Is this true? I mean, it's not on our news at all, like it was in the 90s (that i remember).

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
Sethis, there's certainly a large number of people here who detest violence. But by the same token, there are a large group of people for whom violence is completely socially acceptable - the ones who have grown up really close to it.

The kindof 'I don't like the way you looked at me so I'm going to punch you in the face' type.

There is A LOT of anger here. An undercurrent of resentment and bitterness at past wrongs. A distrust of 'the other side' or anyone who is different.

That is why sensible people detest violence so much. Because we have seen what it can do to a community. To people. There is nothing so ugly as a person warped by anger into violence.

And yes, bombings and shootings have dropped dramatically since the ceasefires. Now they only shoot drug dealers and joy riders who invade the wrong patch.
(and I don't mean Protestants/Catholics... the shootings going on at the minute are Protestants shooting other Protestants over drug terrority and Catholics kneecapping other Catholics for bad behaviour).


Incidentally, I started Shotokan karate as a means of getting fit and for something to do on a Saturday morning. I've met lots of lovely people through the club (even though I don't go nearly as often as I used to). But, despite being trained up to brown-belt, I'd never use it... I just don't have that 'killer' instinct. Run first, ask questions later

Getting to the other side

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
Or possibly "Run... and then run some more."

Hope I didn't offend you or anything, I just wondered what the situation was as I've never been to Ireland, and the only exposure I have to it's problems comes from the BBC.

I'm saddened by what you describe as justification for violence, I mean, what the hell are you fighting for if there aren't even sides anymore? It sounds like it's degenerating into a free for all, and I think that's a terrible waste.

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Posted: 23rd Jun 2005
Always was a terrible waste



No offence taken at all... I have no problems admitting how fu*ked up some of my countrymen and women are (wish some other folks could use the same honesty).



That is what I meant by 'there is no justification for violence' - because I've seen it dressed up as so many things... Always 'for the cause'.



It started off as a war to fight off an unwelcome British. Then the other side fought to keep it British, then they fought for past wrongs and injustices. Then they fought 'the other side'. Now they fight to mark out terroritory and because violence is so ingrained.



(Ahem, rather simplified )



Violence is a lack of self-control which can easily escalate.



Some people in this country have forgotten that we are all human and have catagorised themselves into one group or another. Perhaps for a sense of belonging or security - I don't know - but either way, it is a corrosive and negative force.



Our differences should be talked through, then celebrated... not feared and responded to with violence.

Getting to the other side