Forums > Social Discussion > Why do people think they always know best?
Login/Join to ParticipateSometimes sword wofter
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
I was sent this by one of my friends:
"Do read this and do this. What these 2 idiot boys did was wrong and DISGUSTING. Do you remember February 1993 when a young 3 yr old was taken from shopping mall in Liverpool by two 10-year-old boys? Jamie Bulger walked away from his mother for only a second and Jon Venables took his hand and led him out of the mall with his friend Robert Thompson. They took Jamie on a walk for over 2 and a half miles, along the way stopping every now and again to torture the poor little boy who was crying constantly for his mummy. Finally they stopped at a railway track where they brutally kicked him, threw stones at him, rubbed paint in his eyes and pushed batteries up his anus. It was actually worse than this... What these two boys did was so horrendous that Jamie's mother was forbidden to identify his body. They then left his beaten small body on the tracks so a train could run him over to hide the mess they had created. These two boys, even being young, understood what they did was wrong, hence trying to make it look like an accident. This week Lady Justice Butler-Sloss has awarded the two boys anonymity for the rest of their lives when they leave custody with new identities. We cannot let this happen. They will also leave early this year only serving just over half of their sentence. One paper even stated that Robert may go on to University. They are getting away with their crime. They disgustingly and violently took Jamie's life away in return they get a new life. Please read it carefully...then add your name at the end... and send it to everyone you can! Please add your name and location to the list and send it to friends and family. Please copy this e-mail (highlight text, right click, copy and paste into a new email) instead of forwarding so we do not get arrows at the beginning of the sentences. If you are the 220th person to sign, please forward this e-mail to (email address removed)and attention it to Lady Justice Butler-Sloss. Then start the list over again and send to your friends and family. The Love-Bug virus took less that 72 hours to reach the world. I hope this one does as well. We need to protect our family and friends from creatures like Robert and Jon. One day they may be living next to you and your small children, without your knowledge. If Robert and Jon could be so evil at 10 years old, imagine what they could do as adults!"
Man I can't begin to pick out all the things that are wrong with this.
Firstly this was written by an Australian forwarded through about 150 New Zealanders and Canadians who added their names and locations before it got to the UK. Why?
Seconly these boys were 10 when they commited this crime. If we cannot accept that people can reform then we might as well simply hang every criminal that gets caught.
Thirdly these boys were like 10 when they commited this crime! Yes it is a terrible crime, but why would a child so young be so twisted? Can we really accept the idea that some children and just black and white all out evil? These are probably kids from really messed up homes who've grown up watching some really messed up movies. I sure I don't know but I imagine these boys have been gone over by some of the top experts to find out. I don't imagine they are being released if they posed any danger at all.
Fourthly the idea of state involves the seperation of powers between the elements like the political (i.e. us the people) and the judicial. This is good and for a reason. This means expert judges can call on expert child psychologists who can give their expert opinion. Unlike my opinion or the opinion of all the numpties whose only information is this script above.
I don't agree with "moral" crusades and think there are plenty of real life unemotive ones out there.
I was sent this by one of my friends:
"Do read this and do this. What these 2 idiot boys did was wrong and DISGUSTING. Do you remember February 1993 when a young 3 yr old was taken from shopping mall in Liverpool by two 10-year-old boys? Jamie Bulger walked away from his mother for only a second and Jon Venables took his hand and led him out of the mall with his friend Robert Thompson. They took Jamie on a walk for over 2 and a half miles, along the way stopping every now and again to torture the poor little boy who was crying constantly for his mummy. Finally they stopped at a railway track where they brutally kicked him, threw stones at him, rubbed paint in his eyes and pushed batteries up his anus. It was actually worse than this... What these two boys did was so horrendous that Jamie's mother was forbidden to identify his body. They then left his beaten small body on the tracks so a train could run him over to hide the mess they had created. These two boys, even being young, understood what they did was wrong, hence trying to make it look like an accident. This week Lady Justice Butler-Sloss has awarded the two boys anonymity for the rest of their lives when they leave custody with new identities. We cannot let this happen. They will also leave early this year only serving just over half of their sentence. One paper even stated that Robert may go on to University. They are getting away with their crime. They disgustingly and violently took Jamie's life away in return they get a new life. Please read it carefully...then add your name at the end... and send it to everyone you can! Please add your name and location to the list and send it to friends and family. Please copy this e-mail (highlight text, right click, copy and paste into a new email) instead of forwarding so we do not get arrows at the beginning of the sentences. If you are the 220th person to sign, please forward this e-mail to (email address removed)and attention it to Lady Justice Butler-Sloss. Then start the list over again and send to your friends and family. The Love-Bug virus took less that 72 hours to reach the world. I hope this one does as well. We need to protect our family and friends from creatures like Robert and Jon. One day they may be living next to you and your small children, without your knowledge. If Robert and Jon could be so evil at 10 years old, imagine what they could do as adults!"
Man I can't begin to pick out all the things that are wrong with this.
Firstly this was written by an Australian forwarded through about 150 New Zealanders and Canadians who added their names and locations before it got to the UK. Why?
Seconly these boys were 10 when they commited this crime. If we cannot accept that people can reform then we might as well simply hang every criminal that gets caught.
Thirdly these boys were like 10 when they commited this crime! Yes it is a terrible crime, but why would a child so young be so twisted? Can we really accept the idea that some children and just black and white all out evil? These are probably kids from really messed up homes who've grown up watching some really messed up movies. I sure I don't know but I imagine these boys have been gone over by some of the top experts to find out. I don't imagine they are being released if they posed any danger at all.
Fourthly the idea of state involves the seperation of powers between the elements like the political (i.e. us the people) and the judicial. This is good and for a reason. This means expert judges can call on expert child psychologists who can give their expert opinion. Unlike my opinion or the opinion of all the numpties whose only information is this script above.
I don't agree with "moral" crusades and think there are plenty of real life unemotive ones out there.
IMPORTANT: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of a sane person.
"just get the f**k on with it and make me the anti-christ already!"
GOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland
Posted:
i dont really have much to say about this one but i reckon that by copying out the chain mail verbatim and including the email address your helping to propogate it
i dont really have much to say about this one but i reckon that by copying out the chain mail verbatim and including the email address your helping to propogate it
Love is the law.
Sometimes sword wofter
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
hmmm....
I didn't think that people were going to know what I was talking about via the medium of telepathy.
If anyone is dum enough to email the link *shakes head* then I don't think there is any help for them.
So, no that is not my intention. My intention is to discuss whether or not I'm being a bleeding heart liberal or if these people are failing to understand the way we as a society deal with crime.
hmmm....
I didn't think that people were going to know what I was talking about via the medium of telepathy. If anyone is dum enough to email the link *shakes head* then I don't think there is any help for them.
So, no that is not my intention. My intention is to discuss whether or not I'm being a bleeding heart liberal or if these people are failing to understand the way we as a society deal with crime.
IMPORTANT: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of a sane person.
"just get the f**k on with it and make me the anti-christ already!"
GOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland
Posted:
fair enough
personally i think that people who write chain letters rarley have any interest, if any, in the actual events described.
they collect email address's and spread virus's
fair enough
personally i think that people who write chain letters rarley have any interest, if any, in the actual events described.
they collect email address's and spread virus's
Love is the law.
Sometimes sword wofter
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
you know, that's something I never thought about. Kind of obvious when you point it out.
you know, that's something I never thought about. Kind of obvious when you point it out.
IMPORTANT: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of a sane person.
"just get the f**k on with it and make me the anti-christ already!"
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
Thanks for drawing attention to it though.
However, this is the latest story on the Bulger case from the BBC
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4048957.stm
as you can see, it's dated Nov 2004 - I could not find anything about Lady Justice Sloss.
Thanks for drawing attention to it though.
However, this is the latest story on the Bulger case from the BBC
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4048957.stm
as you can see, it's dated Nov 2004 - I could not find anything about Lady Justice Sloss.
Getting to the other side 
Internet Hate Machine
10,530 posts
Location: They seek him here, they seek him there...
10,530 posts
Location: They seek him here, they seek him there...
Posted:
i hate chains and spams... they are poo.
What those kids did was wrong, but they have had time to reform themselves. Thats what prison is designed for, Reform.
Didnt the mum of the kid track one of the brohters down? That must have been bad...
I heard that the boys attacked the kid cos they saw a chucky movie or sumthin...
Personnaly, I reckon those kids have suffered enuff for a while, and if there is a hell, there going to it.
Leave em well alone and ignore them, thats what id do.
And that thing about the chain going thru loads of countries... that is strange nosy little devils.
What was the chain in aid of anyway? apart from collecting addresses? I mean, its not as if an email could do anything...
i hate chains and spams... they are poo.
What those kids did was wrong, but they have had time to reform themselves. Thats what prison is designed for, Reform.
Didnt the mum of the kid track one of the brohters down? That must have been bad...
I heard that the boys attacked the kid cos they saw a chucky movie or sumthin...
Personnaly, I reckon those kids have suffered enuff for a while, and if there is a hell, there going to it.
Leave em well alone and ignore them, thats what id do.
And that thing about the chain going thru loads of countries... that is strange
nosy little devils.What was the chain in aid of anyway? apart from collecting addresses? I mean, its not as if an email could do anything...
The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."
Sometimes sword wofter
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
Just read that. It's kind of messed up. One act of hate spawns more hate...
Just read that. It's kind of messed up. One act of hate spawns more hate...
IMPORTANT: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of a sane person.
"just get the f**k on with it and make me the anti-christ already!"
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
But still there's 150 more people on the signature-list and most of them will have no interest in the email addresses... dunno if they think they can improve the world by forwarding chain letters, it's definitely easier than getting up from their desks and actually doing something useful :|
I agree that they deserve a second chance, it'll be hard enough to live with knowing what they've done even with a new identity and the chance to go to uni!
But still there's 150 more people on the signature-list and most of them will have no interest in the email addresses... dunno if they think they can improve the world by forwarding chain letters, it's definitely easier than getting up from their desks and actually doing something useful :|
I agree that they deserve a second chance, it'll be hard enough to live with knowing what they've done even with a new identity and the chance to go to uni!
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
personally i think that people who commit crimes like murder and rape should recieve the death penalty.
how would you describe the act that they commited? if such a thing was portrayed in a movie the child would be possesed by the devil
are you serious? do you honestly think that a child who committed those acts at such a young age is not going to pose a danger? how would u feel knowing they did what they did if they where your neighbour?
i really doubt that the expert child psychologists would encounter to many children who have tortured, mutilated and murdered a small child, so without a knowledgebase to draw on their expert opinion as to what affect such events would have on a child is speculation
Written by: bonzai
Seconly these boys were 10 when they commited this crime. If we cannot accept that people can reform then we might as well simply hang every criminal that gets caught.
personally i think that people who commit crimes like murder and rape should recieve the death penalty.
Written by: bonzai
Thirdly these boys were like 10 when they commited this crime! Yes it is a terrible crime, but why would a child so young be so twisted? Can we really accept the idea that some children and just black and white all out evil?
how would you describe the act that they commited? if such a thing was portrayed in a movie the child would be possesed by the devil
Written by: bonzai
These are probably kids from really messed up homes who've grown up watching some really messed up movies. I sure I don't know but I imagine these boys have been gone over by some of the top experts to find out. I don't imagine they are being released if they posed any danger at all.
are you serious? do you honestly think that a child who committed those acts at such a young age is not going to pose a danger? how would u feel knowing they did what they did if they where your neighbour?
Written by: bonzai
Fourthly the idea of state involves the seperation of powers between the elements like the political (i.e. us the people) and the judicial. This is good and for a reason. This means expert judges can call on expert child psychologists who can give their expert opinion. Unlike my opinion or the opinion of all the numpties whose only information is this script above.
i really doubt that the expert child psychologists would encounter to many children who have tortured, mutilated and murdered a small child, so without a knowledgebase to draw on their expert opinion as to what affect such events would have on a child is speculation
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
do you think that society deals with crime effectively?
to everyone that thinks that they deserve a second chance, if you dont have a child image that you do, can you honestly say that if two people where to murder your child that you would want them to have a second chance at life? bearing in mind that this isnt some accidental murder we are talking about here, imagine that these two people where to take your child and intentionally make them suffer and then murder them. can you honestly say that you think that these people who have maliciously set out with the intention to hurt and kill your child deserve to have a second chance?
EDITED_BY: ben-ja-men (1110900531)
Written by: bonzai
My intention is to discuss whether or not I'm being a bleeding heart liberal or if these people are failing to understand the way we as a society deal with crime.
do you think that society deals with crime effectively?
to everyone that thinks that they deserve a second chance, if you dont have a child image that you do, can you honestly say that if two people where to murder your child that you would want them to have a second chance at life? bearing in mind that this isnt some accidental murder we are talking about here, imagine that these two people where to take your child and intentionally make them suffer and then murder them. can you honestly say that you think that these people who have maliciously set out with the intention to hurt and kill your child deserve to have a second chance?
EDITED_BY: ben-ja-men (1110900531)
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
i don't think the judicial system is in any way perfect.
but i do think that this case was dealt with in as correct a manner as possible by the british judicial system.
ben, on capital punishment, where would you draw the line?
why only 'crimes like rape and murder'?
what constitutes a crime 'like' rape and murder?
do you thin sexual assault in general should be a capital crime?
what about kidnapping with assault?
a serious assault by a man on a woman or child?
any serious assault on anyone ending in the loss of a physical ability (blindness, paralysation)?
and more to the point, although i believe that pretty much all 10 year olds have the faculties to understand 'this is wrong, if you do it you will be punished', i'm not sure that all children will understand the gravity of certain acts if they have not been raised to consider them.
do you seriously think that death should be offered as a punishment for children?
"do you honestly think that a child who committed those acts at such a young age is not going to pose a danger? how would u feel knowing they did what they did if they where your neighbour?"
for anyone not sure of why they were granted anonymity, there's your answer.
cole. x
i don't think the judicial system is in any way perfect.
but i do think that this case was dealt with in as correct a manner as possible by the british judicial system.
ben, on capital punishment, where would you draw the line?
why only 'crimes like rape and murder'?
what constitutes a crime 'like' rape and murder?
do you thin sexual assault in general should be a capital crime?
what about kidnapping with assault?
a serious assault by a man on a woman or child?
any serious assault on anyone ending in the loss of a physical ability (blindness, paralysation)?
and more to the point, although i believe that pretty much all 10 year olds have the faculties to understand 'this is wrong, if you do it you will be punished', i'm not sure that all children will understand the gravity of certain acts if they have not been raised to consider them.
do you seriously think that death should be offered as a punishment for children?
"do you honestly think that a child who committed those acts at such a young age is not going to pose a danger? how would u feel knowing they did what they did if they where your neighbour?"
for anyone not sure of why they were granted anonymity, there's your answer.
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
see thread on changing the structure of society for my answer to that, its looooong
what would you want if it was your child that had been intensionally tortured and murdered?
does that mean that you would be happy to have them as your neighbour?
Written by: coleman
ben, on capital punishment, where would you draw the line?
why only 'crimes like rape and murder'?
what constitutes a crime 'like' rape and murder?
do you thin sexual assault in general should be a capital crime?
what about kidnapping with assault?
a serious assault by a man on a woman or child?
any serious assault on anyone ending in the loss of a physical ability (blindness, paralysation)?
see thread on changing the structure of society for my answer to that, its looooong
Written by: coleman
do you seriously think that death should be offered as a punishment for children?
what would you want if it was your child that had been intensionally tortured and murdered?
Written by: coleman
"do you honestly think that a child who committed those acts at such a young age is not going to pose a danger? how would u feel knowing they did what they did if they where your neighbour?"
for anyone not sure of why they were granted anonymity, there's your answer.
does that mean that you would be happy to have them as your neighbour?
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
cool, will read the other thread later this week
been meaning to get around to reading and contributing to 1wd's 'why' post too but have recently been too distracted by cool new gadgets, juggling and a sexy girl
i can't say for sure but i'd probably want to kill.
them first (although if i got the chance, i doubt i could kill a child with my own hands - especially if i had just lost my own) and then anyone who came near me, possibly including myself.
this does not mean it is the right thing to do.
and with my full powers of reason (i.e. not under duress from that kind of shock), i doubt that i could be convinced that a reaction such as that would be in any way acceptable.
hate breeds hate as the story posted above about jamie's mother shows.
yes.
i would prefer not to know who they were but if i did and i had a problem with it, i would move away.
how do you know that your neighbour is not a murderer or rapist - do you have full access to police records, have you checked up on everyone you know?
even better, do you know all the bad things i have done in the past?
and if your opinion of me could change if you knew, how can you accept that you have a real idea of who and what i really am?
cole. x
cool, will read the other thread later this week
been meaning to get around to reading and contributing to 1wd's 'why' post too but have recently been too distracted by cool new gadgets, juggling and a sexy girl
Written by: ben-ja-men
what would you want if it was your child that had been intentionally tortured and murdered?
i can't say for sure but i'd probably want to kill.
them first (although if i got the chance, i doubt i could kill a child with my own hands - especially if i had just lost my own) and then anyone who came near me, possibly including myself.
this does not mean it is the right thing to do.
and with my full powers of reason (i.e. not under duress from that kind of shock), i doubt that i could be convinced that a reaction such as that would be in any way acceptable.
hate breeds hate as the story posted above about jamie's mother shows.
Written by: ben-ja-menWritten by: coleman
"do you honestly think that a child who committed those acts at such a young age is not going to pose a danger? how would u feel knowing they did what they did if they where your neighbour?"
for anyone not sure of why they were granted anonymity, there's your answer.
does that mean that you would be happy to have them as your neighbour?
yes.
i would prefer not to know who they were but if i did and i had a problem with it, i would move away.
how do you know that your neighbour is not a murderer or rapist - do you have full access to police records, have you checked up on everyone you know?
even better, do you know all the bad things i have done in the past?
and if your opinion of me could change if you knew, how can you accept that you have a real idea of who and what i really am?
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
I would seriously want somebody to stop me from doing them any harm. I would want to see them punished, maybe dead, probably I'd like to do exactly the same things to them. That's exactly why countries need legislation and stop people from punishing murderers, rapists, even thieves as they think they should. You don't honestly think that the best person to judge punishment for a crime is the one that's been harmed by it? That way we'd go straight into vendettas and probably whole families would kill each other!
Written by: ben-ja-men
what would you want if it was your child that had been intensionally tortured and murdered?
I would seriously want somebody to stop me from doing them any harm. I would want to see them punished, maybe dead, probably I'd like to do exactly the same things to them. That's exactly why countries need legislation and stop people from punishing murderers, rapists, even thieves as they think they should. You don't honestly think that the best person to judge punishment for a crime is the one that's been harmed by it? That way we'd go straight into vendettas and probably whole families would kill each other!
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
Sometimes sword wofter
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
They stopped doing that because it didn't work. They tried it and it failed.
That is because movies are stories not real life.
I think the problem lies with society and not with our legal system. Does your instinct not tell you that this is not the behaviour of a normal, healthy, balanced 10 year old child? I'm going to check out your new society post.
Simply branding them evil, having them killed and ignoring the problem isn't going to work, it is only a attractive solution because it is simple.
Also, I don't know who lives next door to me so for all I know it could be one of them. But it doesn't keep me up at night. I'm far, far more likely to be run over by a bus or stabbed by one of the idiots outside a night-club than murdered by a serial killer.
but yet you are claiming to know better? on what are you basing your knowledge? Years of study and work with child and crime?
Written by: ben-ja-men
personally i think that people who commit crimes like murder and rape should recieve the death penalty.
They stopped doing that because it didn't work. They tried it and it failed.
Written by: ben-ja-men
how would you describe the act that they commited? if such a thing was portrayed in a movie the child would be possesed by the devil
That is because movies are stories not real life.
Written by: ben-ja-men
are you serious? do you honestly think that a child who committed those acts at such a young age is not going to pose a danger? how would u feel knowing they did what they did if they where your neighbour?
I think the problem lies with society and not with our legal system. Does your instinct not tell you that this is not the behaviour of a normal, healthy, balanced 10 year old child? I'm going to check out your new society post.
Simply branding them evil, having them killed and ignoring the problem isn't going to work, it is only a attractive solution because it is simple.
Also, I don't know who lives next door to me so for all I know it could be one of them. But it doesn't keep me up at night. I'm far, far more likely to be run over by a bus or stabbed by one of the idiots outside a night-club than murdered by a serial killer.
Written by: ben-ja-men
i really doubt that the expert child psychologists would encounter to many children who have tortured, mutilated and murdered a small child, so without a knowledgebase to draw on their expert opinion as to what affect such events would have on a child is speculation
but yet you are claiming to know better? on what are you basing your knowledge? Years of study and work with child and crime?
IMPORTANT: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of a sane person.
"just get the f**k on with it and make me the anti-christ already!"
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
i agree
no im not claiming to know better im simply saying that their judgement of them being "safe" now doesnt have much knowledge to draw upon to make it a safe decision.
you didnt answer the question how would you describe their acts?
i think ull find thats because of the way it was implemented and people having nothing to lose
i agree that we do need legislation, i think that it should protect the innocent rather than the guilty, how do u think the familys cope knowing what happened to their children and whats more knowing that their childs murder is getting a second chance in life even though they chose to take the life of another? do u think that its fair that the familys life is ruined but the murders get a new one? doesnt seem particularly fair to me
cole u can live with someone your whole life every waking moment of every day and your will never truely know them, the only person you can ever truely come to know is yourself
Written by: bonzai
I think the problem lies with society and not with our legal system. Does your instinct not tell you that this is not the behaviour of a normal, healthy, balanced 10 year old child?
i agree
Written by: bonzai
but yet you are claiming to know better? on what are you basing your knowledge? Years of study and work with child and crime?
no im not claiming to know better im simply saying that their judgement of them being "safe" now doesnt have much knowledge to draw upon to make it a safe decision.
Written by: bonzai
That is because movies are stories not real life.
you didnt answer the question how would you describe their acts?
Written by: bonzai
They stopped doing that because it didn't work. They tried it and it failed.
i think ull find thats because of the way it was implemented and people having nothing to lose
Written by: Birgit
That's exactly why countries need legislation and stop people from punishing murderers, rapists, even thieves as they think they should. You don't honestly think that the best person to judge punishment for a crime is the one that's been harmed by it? That way we'd go straight into vendettas and probably whole families would kill each other!
i agree that we do need legislation, i think that it should protect the innocent rather than the guilty, how do u think the familys cope knowing what happened to their children and whats more knowing that their childs murder is getting a second chance in life even though they chose to take the life of another? do u think that its fair that the familys life is ruined but the murders get a new one? doesnt seem particularly fair to me
Written by: coleman
even better, do you know all the bad things i have done in the past?
and if your opinion of me could change if you knew, how can you accept that you have a real idea of who and what i really am?
cole u can live with someone your whole life every waking moment of every day and your will never truely know them, the only person you can ever truely come to know is yourself
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
nice attempt at a cop out
i was not asking if you can ever really know someone.
i was pointing out that you seem to be saying 'reform does not work', that these two people should be either killed or locked away forever for their actions in the past when they were children.
what exactly are you saying?
should you have the right to know what bad things i have done in the past in order that you may judge me, even though i feel remorse and disgust at what i had done?
or is taking the sum of your experiences of my actions a good enough measure of what type of person i am?
those two are mutually exclusive - you can't be thinking both.
if you found out that i had made (what i now consider to be) a terrible mistake when i was eight years old, would you conclude that i was destined to repeat my actions?
in reality, when i was a kid i stole things, was involved in fights, i littered, i was cruel to animals, i lied to people close to me and i had little regard for those other than myself.
i don't do these things now but you seem to be suggesting that you think there is no way that i could overcome these past actions or avoid repeating them.
why?
cole. x
Written by: ben-ja-menWritten by: coleman
even better, do you know all the bad things i have done in the past?
and if your opinion of me could change if you knew, how can you accept that you have a real idea of who and what i really am?
cole u can live with someone your whole life every waking moment of every day and your will never truely know them, the only person you can ever truely come to know is yourself
nice attempt at a cop out
i was not asking if you can ever really know someone.
i was pointing out that you seem to be saying 'reform does not work', that these two people should be either killed or locked away forever for their actions in the past when they were children.
what exactly are you saying?
should you have the right to know what bad things i have done in the past in order that you may judge me, even though i feel remorse and disgust at what i had done?
or is taking the sum of your experiences of my actions a good enough measure of what type of person i am?
those two are mutually exclusive - you can't be thinking both.
if you found out that i had made (what i now consider to be) a terrible mistake when i was eight years old, would you conclude that i was destined to repeat my actions?
in reality, when i was a kid i stole things, was involved in fights, i littered, i was cruel to animals, i lied to people close to me and i had little regard for those other than myself.
i don't do these things now but you seem to be suggesting that you think there is no way that i could overcome these past actions or avoid repeating them.
why?
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
i think that one of two possible causes for their actions either a) they are just pure evil or b) they are a product of their environment. i dont think that with all the poverty around that money should not be spent reforming these children i think it could be put to a better use, considering that they have taken a life, ruined their parents lives and ruined the lives of the victems family. i think that changing the fundamental nature of society is the only practical non bandaid solution.
i guess that depends on what it is that you have done if you had been a serial killer that is something i would want to know. i guess a comparision say for example you had had a tiger cub and you had raised it until it was full grown, once it has tasted warm blood from a kill that tiger will never be the same even though u have raised it from a cub it will turn on you because something has been awakened.
what you have listed there i think is sadly quite normal in todays society for young children. the effects of which do have a lasting effect on the person, id hazard a guess and say that your guilt for those things is what makes you the really nice and extra considerate guy that you are. i would guess that you had come to terms with your environmental conditions and new influences at some stage caused a shift in your prioritys causing you to straighten up and fly right.
i think that the deep seeded issues in a 10 year old child who seeks out and murders another child along with the lasting imprint that those events have on the person that child grows into are something that the current system is not able to resolve in the same way that once the tiger tastes blood there is no return
Written by: coleman
i was pointing out that you seem to be saying 'reform does not work', that these two people should be either killed or locked away forever for their actions in the past when they were children.
i think that one of two possible causes for their actions either a) they are just pure evil or b) they are a product of their environment. i dont think that with all the poverty around that money should not be spent reforming these children i think it could be put to a better use, considering that they have taken a life, ruined their parents lives and ruined the lives of the victems family. i think that changing the fundamental nature of society is the only practical non bandaid solution.
Written by: coleman
should you have the right to know what bad things i have done in the past in order that you may judge me, even though i feel remorse and disgust at what i had done?
or is taking the sum of your experiences of my actions a good enough measure of what type of person i am?
i guess that depends on what it is that you have done if you had been a serial killer that is something i would want to know. i guess a comparision say for example you had had a tiger cub and you had raised it until it was full grown, once it has tasted warm blood from a kill that tiger will never be the same even though u have raised it from a cub it will turn on you because something has been awakened.
Written by: coleman
if you found out that i had made (what i now consider to be) a terrible mistake when i was eight years old, would you conclude that i was destined to repeat my actions?
in reality, when i was a kid i stole things, was involved in fights, i littered, i was cruel to animals, i lied to people close to me and i had little regard for those other than myself.
i don't do these things now but you seem to be suggesting that you think there is no way that i could overcome these past actions or avoid repeating them.
what you have listed there i think is sadly quite normal in todays society for young children. the effects of which do have a lasting effect on the person, id hazard a guess and say that your guilt for those things is what makes you the really nice and extra considerate guy that you are. i would guess that you had come to terms with your environmental conditions and new influences at some stage caused a shift in your prioritys causing you to straighten up and fly right.
i think that the deep seeded issues in a 10 year old child who seeks out and murders another child along with the lasting imprint that those events have on the person that child grows into are something that the current system is not able to resolve in the same way that once the tiger tastes blood there is no return
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
wicked reply, cheers ben
there's only one area where i don't see the line of thought you're following and its this bit:
i.e. i was sucessfully reformed
maybe i actually was a murderer in my childhood but new influences caused a shift in your priorities causing me to straighten up and fly right.
if i was, i definitely wouldn't tell you now!
i personally don't think your tiger analogy applies to humans - i believe reform can and does work in many cases.
in fact, i think it probably works far better in cases like the bulger case than it does for adults that have committed crimes.
one of the fundamental things that sets human beings apart from other animals is our ability to reason about and overcome our natural instincts.
great topic bonzai - cheers
cole. x
wicked reply, cheers ben
there's only one area where i don't see the line of thought you're following and its this bit:
Written by: ben-ja-men
id hazard a guess and say that your guilt for those things is what makes you the really nice and extra considerate guy that you are. i would guess that you had come to terms with your environmental conditions and new influences at some stage caused a shift in your prioritys causing you to straighten up and fly right.
i.e. i was sucessfully reformed
maybe i actually was a murderer in my childhood but new influences caused a shift in your priorities causing me to straighten up and fly right.
if i was, i definitely wouldn't tell you now!
i personally don't think your tiger analogy applies to humans - i believe reform can and does work in many cases.
in fact, i think it probably works far better in cases like the bulger case than it does for adults that have committed crimes.
one of the fundamental things that sets human beings apart from other animals is our ability to reason about and overcome our natural instincts.
great topic bonzai - cheers
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
Good post Spanner
Good post Spanner
Getting to the other side
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
Oh dear, and all that in a foreign language... please excuse inaccuracies, they're not intentional but will probably occur!
Take two extreme scenarios:
Scenario 1: The children had a bad childhood (as Spanner just wrote), and have been seriously neglected, and learned their morals from watching television and playing video games. Yes, I exaggerate. But can you really say they are all evil, and there is no chance that with years or decades of being in detention and being in psychotherapy they may not see they've done wrong and try and do better? Think back to when you were 10 or 11, and see if you could possibly have done anything like this in a clear state of mind, or if you agree there must have been something wrong with them.
Scenario 2: The kids were ALL evil, didn't listen to their parents, and are entirely to blame. Now, according to you, it would be "fair" if they were killed for it and their families' lives would be destroyed forever as well as the victim's. My opinion is that it should at least be tried to give them a chance to see what they did to the boy, how it affected the boy's family, and also give them a chance to do better in the future. They may have a great motivation to actually be of benefit to the society now. Not saying they definitely will, but they may.
Last but not least, in a case of murder, who are we to say what is "fair" or if there is, or can be, any "fairness". My own idea about the death penalty is that if I could push the button to kill them, and they had not done anything to me or my family/friends, then I might approve, but so far I haven't heard of a single case with adults where I think I could, and much less with children.
I love children, and I have worked with children from quite a rough area of my (admittedly small) home town. Having seen some of the things their families did to them and how it affected them, and, as I said, this was no big-city ghetto but just the part of my town with comparatively much unemployment, drinking and nasty split-up stories between parents, I am not surprised what children can get up to. They start out as vulnerable little creatures that need protection and love, and even though some of them do things they know are wrong, this is in most cases because they didn't get what they deserve to have for their childhood, or because they had problems nobody realised, mostly because nobody was looking. Unfortunately, most people don't care about other people's problems (see Douglas Adams for comic effect, but it's true...) unless they do something so bad that it gets everybody's attention
Written by: ben-ja-menWritten by: Birgit
That's exactly why countries need legislation and stop people from punishing murderers, rapists, even thieves as they think they should. You don't honestly think that the best person to judge punishment for a crime is the one that's been harmed by it? That way we'd go straight into vendettas and probably whole families would kill each other!
i agree that we do need legislation, i think that it should protect the innocent rather than the guilty, how do u think the familys cope knowing what happened to their children and whats more knowing that their childs murder is getting a second chance in life even though they chose to take the life of another? do u think that its fair that the familys life is ruined but the murders get a new one? doesnt seem particularly fair to me
Oh dear, and all that in a foreign language... please excuse inaccuracies, they're not intentional but will probably occur!
Take two extreme scenarios:
Scenario 1: The children had a bad childhood (as Spanner just wrote), and have been seriously neglected, and learned their morals from watching television and playing video games. Yes, I exaggerate. But can you really say they are all evil, and there is no chance that with years or decades of being in detention and being in psychotherapy they may not see they've done wrong and try and do better? Think back to when you were 10 or 11, and see if you could possibly have done anything like this in a clear state of mind, or if you agree there must have been something wrong with them.
Scenario 2: The kids were ALL evil, didn't listen to their parents, and are entirely to blame. Now, according to you, it would be "fair" if they were killed for it and their families' lives would be destroyed forever as well as the victim's. My opinion is that it should at least be tried to give them a chance to see what they did to the boy, how it affected the boy's family, and also give them a chance to do better in the future. They may have a great motivation to actually be of benefit to the society now. Not saying they definitely will, but they may.
Last but not least, in a case of murder, who are we to say what is "fair" or if there is, or can be, any "fairness". My own idea about the death penalty is that if I could push the button to kill them, and they had not done anything to me or my family/friends, then I might approve, but so far I haven't heard of a single case with adults where I think I could, and much less with children.
I love children, and I have worked with children from quite a rough area of my (admittedly small) home town. Having seen some of the things their families did to them and how it affected them, and, as I said, this was no big-city ghetto but just the part of my town with comparatively much unemployment, drinking and nasty split-up stories between parents, I am not surprised what children can get up to. They start out as vulnerable little creatures that need protection and love, and even though some of them do things they know are wrong, this is in most cases because they didn't get what they deserve to have for their childhood, or because they had problems nobody realised, mostly because nobody was looking. Unfortunately, most people don't care about other people's problems (see Douglas Adams for comic effect, but it's true...) unless they do something so bad that it gets everybody's attention
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,942 posts
Location: London, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,942 posts
Location: London, UK
Posted:
personally when i received that email i deleted it - some forwards although annoying are worth while (often the jokes)
that sort of opinionated and inaccurate (as well as ill informed) forward isnt worth the bandwidth its sent on
The sad thing is it highlights the ease with which people can be swayed by the media. Eg the daily mails name and shame of peadophiles - doing that it wrecked a lot of innocent people's lives when they were badly identified as child moletors
Thats why anominity is given it works to stop vigilate groups.
The law is there to protect the citzens of a country - even criminals once they have served their time are citizens
personally when i received that email i deleted it - some forwards although annoying are worth while (often the jokes)
that sort of opinionated and inaccurate (as well as ill informed) forward isnt worth the bandwidth its sent on
The sad thing is it highlights the ease with which people can be swayed by the media. Eg the daily mails name and shame of peadophiles - doing that it wrecked a lot of innocent people's lives when they were badly identified as child moletors
Thats why anominity is given it works to stop vigilate groups.
The law is there to protect the citzens of a country - even criminals once they have served their time are citizens
back
Sometimes sword wofter
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
It's a good point but not something I feel is central to this debate. I don't think making this issue emotive by using such terms as "good" and "evil" helps. People and society make the right choices when they are thinking calmly and rationally.
You are trying to pin on these boys an innate chracteristic that people can grab and say "this person is completely and utterly evil and is therefore beyond all hope of redemption." You are describing a black and white, line drawn in the sand, axis of evil, there are those people who are with us and everyone else is against us. You are wanting to say that these boys will be forever fixed in this characteristic. Rubbish. All people are forever changing and adapting learning and moving in different directions. This is life. Any system that doesn't understand this is deeply flawed.
I do not think it is constructive to simply label anyone as "evil." It is too easy and too simple. We must assume that everyone has an equal capacity for good and evil acts and assume that in the correct society and environment that they will choose to take the right actions.
Written by: bonzai
That is because movies are stories not real life.Written by: ben-ja-men
you didnt answer the question how would you describe their acts?
It's a good point but not something I feel is central to this debate. I don't think making this issue emotive by using such terms as "good" and "evil" helps. People and society make the right choices when they are thinking calmly and rationally.
You are trying to pin on these boys an innate chracteristic that people can grab and say "this person is completely and utterly evil and is therefore beyond all hope of redemption." You are describing a black and white, line drawn in the sand, axis of evil, there are those people who are with us and everyone else is against us. You are wanting to say that these boys will be forever fixed in this characteristic. Rubbish. All people are forever changing and adapting learning and moving in different directions. This is life. Any system that doesn't understand this is deeply flawed.
I do not think it is constructive to simply label anyone as "evil." It is too easy and too simple. We must assume that everyone has an equal capacity for good and evil acts and assume that in the correct society and environment that they will choose to take the right actions.
IMPORTANT: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of a sane person.
"just get the f**k on with it and make me the anti-christ already!"
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
ok let me highlight what i see to be the biggest issue in what the boys did, it was their intention to murder the child, which i see to be very different to if the child was to accidentally cause the death of the other child
the effect that such an action has on the psyche of a child especially when they became old enough to fully understand the implication of their action i think would be comparable to the effect that going to war and murdering people has on a fully grown adult. while a person can get councilling after they will never be the same person again something inside them changes
cole i agree that reform can work in cases like those of bulgerly. in the case of murder it steps far outside the social boundaries that our society accepts, most people not all mind you can accept a reformed criminal, most people however (hence the whole anonymity thing) can not accept a reformed murder nor can they forgive the murder. this will be a constant reminder for the rest of their life every day they will be reminded of what they did and how much society hates them for it.
this is a very good point, i feel if falsely accusing someone carried the same penalty as the crime itself people wouldnt make false accusations, but again i think that these crimes are symptomatic of society
i note that you say at some point but im still very suprised
i totally agree
i agree
i agree completely and i would add that the change and adaption builds on previous experiences.
i think your first assumption assumption is invalid because it does not take into account the history and values of the individual in regards to what are good and evil acts are, no two people are the same or have the same values. i think that your second assumption is not relavent as the society and environment will have the same influencing factors as the one in which they commited their crimes in
ok let me highlight what i see to be the biggest issue in what the boys did, it was their intention to murder the child, which i see to be very different to if the child was to accidentally cause the death of the other child
the effect that such an action has on the psyche of a child especially when they became old enough to fully understand the implication of their action i think would be comparable to the effect that going to war and murdering people has on a fully grown adult. while a person can get councilling after they will never be the same person again something inside them changes
cole i agree that reform can work in cases like those of bulgerly. in the case of murder it steps far outside the social boundaries that our society accepts, most people not all mind you can accept a reformed criminal, most people however (hence the whole anonymity thing) can not accept a reformed murder nor can they forgive the murder. this will be a constant reminder for the rest of their life every day they will be reminded of what they did and how much society hates them for it.
Written by: Spanner
I disagree. If the wrong person is convicted and murdered, as was the case all too often before we in the UK abolished the practice, it ruins yet another family's lives.
this is a very good point, i feel if falsely accusing someone carried the same penalty as the crime itself people wouldnt make false accusations, but again i think that these crimes are symptomatic of society
Written by: Spanner
It would depend on the individual circumstances, but if someone murdered my own son, I couldn't discount the possibility that at some point in the future, I might want them to have a second chance.
i note that you say at some point but im still very suprised
Written by: Spanner
Robert Thompson's mother was an alcoholic and he had an extremely violent childhood inflicted upon him. Jon Venables was hyperactive, as was his sister. they were neglected by his mother, who, suffering from depression, may have found it extremely difficult to raise her children. It could be argued that their parents, even inadvertantly, were at the beginning of this chain of ruin.
i totally agree
Written by: Spanner
I also believe everyone has a sense of right and wrong, but if the recognition of these senses aren't encouraged, nor the consequences reinforced, any positive childhood potential will dwindle and the negative potential will prevail.
i agree
Written by: bonzai
All people are forever changing and adapting learning and moving in different directions. This is life.
i agree completely and i would add that the change and adaption builds on previous experiences.
Written by: bonzai
I do not think it is constructive to simply label anyone as "evil." It is too easy and too simple. We must assume that everyone has an equal capacity for good and evil acts and assume that in the correct society and environment that they will choose to take the right actions.
i think your first assumption assumption is invalid because it does not take into account the history and values of the individual in regards to what are good and evil acts are, no two people are the same or have the same values. i think that your second assumption is not relavent as the society and environment will have the same influencing factors as the one in which they commited their crimes in
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
Sometimes sword wofter
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
good points
yes it does take into account their history. Someones history is a story of their changing environment and how they have reacted and learned to adapt to it. No two people have the same values because no two people is brought up in the same environment or learned to adapt the same way.
no. change the stimuli and you change the behaviour. Very easily proven. Our society and our environment have huge influence upon our behaviour. I do not think it is possible to deny this?
If you take a boy at 10 or 11 and spend the next ten years continually making them relive their actions, continually telling them how evil it was, continually telling them how much they are hted for their crimes.... Do you think there is something so innate within them that when they are set free they will kill again?
good points
Written by: ben-ja-men
i think your first assumption assumption is invalid because it does not take into account the history and values of the individual in regards to what are good and evil acts are, no two people are the same or have the same values.
yes it does take into account their history. Someones history is a story of their changing environment and how they have reacted and learned to adapt to it. No two people have the same values because no two people is brought up in the same environment or learned to adapt the same way.
Written by: ben-ja-men
i think that your second assumption is not relavent as the society and environment will have the same influencing factors as the one in which they commited their crimes in
no. change the stimuli and you change the behaviour. Very easily proven. Our society and our environment have huge influence upon our behaviour. I do not think it is possible to deny this?
If you take a boy at 10 or 11 and spend the next ten years continually making them relive their actions, continually telling them how evil it was, continually telling them how much they are hted for their crimes.... Do you think there is something so innate within them that when they are set free they will kill again?
IMPORTANT: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of a sane person.
"just get the f**k on with it and make me the anti-christ already!"
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
i dont understand these two statements seem to contradict each other. if people have different values then they will have a different capacity for good and evil.
how are you going to change the stimuli? surely they are a product of their environment are u going to restructure society? if not i think that the stimuli will still be present in society.
what do u think society says about those types of crimes in news every day? or movies? do u think they are not going to relive those tramatic events every day for the rest of their lives?
if it was innate they would have been born with it so no. i do think that there is something that grew inside of them through the conditioning of their environment that made them commit murder that will be apart of them for the rest of their lives
Written by: bonzai
We must assume that everyone has an equal capacity for good and evil acts
No two people have the same values because no two people is brought up in the same environment or learned to adapt the same way.
i dont understand these two statements seem to contradict each other. if people have different values then they will have a different capacity for good and evil.
Written by: bonzai
change the stimuli and you change the behaviour.
how are you going to change the stimuli? surely they are a product of their environment are u going to restructure society? if not i think that the stimuli will still be present in society.
Written by: bonzai
If you take a boy at 10 or 11 and spend the next ten years continually making them relive their actions, continually telling them how evil it was, continually telling them how much they are hted for their crimes
what do u think society says about those types of crimes in news every day? or movies? do u think they are not going to relive those tramatic events every day for the rest of their lives?
Written by: bonzai
Do you think there is something so innate within them that when they are set free they will kill again?
if it was innate they would have been born with it so no. i do think that there is something that grew inside of them through the conditioning of their environment that made them commit murder that will be apart of them for the rest of their lives
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
lovable smart-ass
785 posts
Location: vineyards, Vienna, Austria
785 posts
Location: vineyards, Vienna, Austria
Posted:
i agree that those kids should have anonymity, im sure after they spend so much time in psychiatric care, that they are safe to go into society. And im even more sure that they have some serious guilt issues, about this.
one thing made me cringe tho:
i think that parents should be worried about their kids having a clear differentiation between fiction and reality and not censoring movies. by censoring movies, the responsibility for raising the child in a realistic way is taken from the parents, because if something like this happens, its suddenly movies, computergames, and rock music that leads to the messed up stuff kids do.
i grew up watching james bond, nightmare on elm street, chucky, critters, house 1,2,3, texas chainsaw massacre. I played mortal combat, doom, blood 1,2, and plenty of other mindlessly violent games.
and guess what?
im not a psycho, im not killing babies, and im not eating puppies for breakfast. because my parents raised me in a way where i respect life and and the wellbeing of others...
sorry to rant....
i agree that those kids should have anonymity, im sure after they spend so much time in psychiatric care, that they are safe to go into society. And im even more sure that they have some serious guilt issues, about this.
one thing made me cringe tho:
Written by:
who've grown up watching some really messed up movies.
i think that parents should be worried about their kids having a clear differentiation between fiction and reality and not censoring movies. by censoring movies, the responsibility for raising the child in a realistic way is taken from the parents, because if something like this happens, its suddenly movies, computergames, and rock music that leads to the messed up stuff kids do.
i grew up watching james bond, nightmare on elm street, chucky, critters, house 1,2,3, texas chainsaw massacre. I played mortal combat, doom, blood 1,2, and plenty of other mindlessly violent games.
and guess what?
im not a psycho, im not killing babies, and im not eating puppies for breakfast. because my parents raised me in a way where i respect life and and the wellbeing of others...
sorry to rant....
"is optimism in austria just a lack of information?"
-Alfred Dorfer
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
i see your logic but what exactly do you base this psycology on?
you seem to have opinions that do not consider that there is a even possibility that a murderer can become reformed - that somehow commiting the act overides any other influences post or previous.
is the line you have drawn (i.e. that you can't ever get over murder) based on any evidence or is it an opinion solely based on your beliefs?
if i understand you, you are saying something like:
'you can be reformed up to and including a certain level of evil act (i.e. the evil act that is 'one step below murder') but once you cross this line, you can never be anything but an evil person destined to repeat their ultimately evil actions.'
again i ask is it only the act of comitting murder or rape that sets off this change in the workings of a person?
or is it any violent act?
where exactly is the line (i.e. what do you have to do) past which attempts to reform become useless?
in reference to your earlier analogy; it has been proved that a wild tiger can be tamed (and i mean one that has been brought from the wild, not one that has been raised by humans and only just tasted blood - that would be too easy), so why can't you reform a murderer?
murderers are living around us in society and by no means do all of them reoffend.
in fact in nearly every case, the only ones that do go on to commit another murder are the mentally ill - and i don't mean mentally ill in your 'they are now irreparably evil' sense but rather the 'this man is a severe paranoid schizophrenic' sense.
until you explain what exactly the difference is between murder and any other act that is recognised as 'wrong', you will contradict yourself:
you said to me: "id hazard a guess and say that your guilt for those things is what makes you [less evil now]. i would guess that you had come to terms with your environmental conditions and new influences at some stage caused a shift in your prioritys causing you to straighten up and fly right."
but then you say now: "cole i agree that reform can work in cases like those of bulgerly. in the case of murder it steps far outside the social boundaries that our society accepts, most people not all mind you can accept a reformed criminal, most people however (hence the whole anonymity thing) can not accept a reformed murder nor can they forgive the murder. this will be a constant reminder for the rest of their life every day they will be reminded of what they did and how much society hates them for it. ... how are you going to change the stimuli [for a murderer]? surely they are a product of their environment are u going to restructure society? if not i think that the stimuli will still be present in society."
why does a small amount of guilt make me a good person, when a larger amount of guilt would have the opposite effect?
how much guilt is necessary to switch the reaction a person has to it?
what exactly prevents reform from happening in the case of murder - i mean what medical or psycological condition is inflicted that prevents any change in their character towards the positive?
why do the environmental conditions and influences change for me, but "society and environment will have the same influencing factors as the one in which they commited their crimes in" when it comes to a murderer?
if your answer to all these questions is "it is what i believe" rather than, "this is what has been shown to be the case" or "i have spoken to several murderers and this is the opinion that i have formed" i guess i can stop typing
cole. x
Written by: ben-ja-menWritten by: bonzai
Do you think there is something so innate within them that when they are set free they will kill again?
if it was innate they would have been born with it so no. i do think that there is something that grew inside of them through the conditioning of their environment that made them commit murder that will be apart of them for the rest of their lives
i see your logic but what exactly do you base this psycology on?
you seem to have opinions that do not consider that there is a even possibility that a murderer can become reformed - that somehow commiting the act overides any other influences post or previous.
is the line you have drawn (i.e. that you can't ever get over murder) based on any evidence or is it an opinion solely based on your beliefs?
if i understand you, you are saying something like:
'you can be reformed up to and including a certain level of evil act (i.e. the evil act that is 'one step below murder') but once you cross this line, you can never be anything but an evil person destined to repeat their ultimately evil actions.'
again i ask is it only the act of comitting murder or rape that sets off this change in the workings of a person?
or is it any violent act?
where exactly is the line (i.e. what do you have to do) past which attempts to reform become useless?
in reference to your earlier analogy; it has been proved that a wild tiger can be tamed (and i mean one that has been brought from the wild, not one that has been raised by humans and only just tasted blood - that would be too easy), so why can't you reform a murderer?
murderers are living around us in society and by no means do all of them reoffend.
in fact in nearly every case, the only ones that do go on to commit another murder are the mentally ill - and i don't mean mentally ill in your 'they are now irreparably evil' sense but rather the 'this man is a severe paranoid schizophrenic' sense.
until you explain what exactly the difference is between murder and any other act that is recognised as 'wrong', you will contradict yourself:
you said to me: "id hazard a guess and say that your guilt for those things is what makes you [less evil now]. i would guess that you had come to terms with your environmental conditions and new influences at some stage caused a shift in your prioritys causing you to straighten up and fly right."
but then you say now: "cole i agree that reform can work in cases like those of bulgerly. in the case of murder it steps far outside the social boundaries that our society accepts, most people not all mind you can accept a reformed criminal, most people however (hence the whole anonymity thing) can not accept a reformed murder nor can they forgive the murder. this will be a constant reminder for the rest of their life every day they will be reminded of what they did and how much society hates them for it. ... how are you going to change the stimuli [for a murderer]? surely they are a product of their environment are u going to restructure society? if not i think that the stimuli will still be present in society."
why does a small amount of guilt make me a good person, when a larger amount of guilt would have the opposite effect?
how much guilt is necessary to switch the reaction a person has to it?
what exactly prevents reform from happening in the case of murder - i mean what medical or psycological condition is inflicted that prevents any change in their character towards the positive?
why do the environmental conditions and influences change for me, but "society and environment will have the same influencing factors as the one in which they commited their crimes in" when it comes to a murderer?
if your answer to all these questions is "it is what i believe" rather than, "this is what has been shown to be the case" or "i have spoken to several murderers and this is the opinion that i have formed" i guess i can stop typing
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
i think that everything is possible, technically you could uncake a cake but whether you would want to put all the effect in to making it happen is a whole other question. if there where 100 ppl left on the face of the planet i would say yes its a good idea to invest the time and resources to help that person however when around 60 million people are dieing from starvation every year im inclined to say no thats not such a good use of resources.
ok so that aside ill elaborate a little as to how the person changes and why the acts stay with them forever. the work of drs hal and sidra stone say (im horribly oversimplifying their system)
1. we are born with a clean state
2. as we experience the world we develop subpersonalitys (NOTE this is different to split personalities as subpersonalities are aware of each other actions split personalities are not) to keep us safe in the world, examples your pusher subpersonality is when your at work, your beach bum subpersonality is when your lazy, they are different patterns of behaviour that you have learnt and use to cope and be safe in different environments
3. when we embrase one subpersonality we repress the opposite
4. the repressed subpersonality does not vanish an analogy they use is putting a baby snake in a box, with time it doesnt die instead it grows and grows until we have to sit on the box to stop it from bursting out
5. we all identify with a group of primary subpersonalities which we consider to be "us"
so whatever subpersonality that was formed at a young age and caused those children to behave the way they did its learnt behavour patterns stay with the child as they grow up and is apart of them (not just the act but the subpersonality itself) for the rest of their lives, no ammount of councilling can remove it as it is a part of you, if it was a primary subpersonality even if the children then supressed it after the murder it doesnt vanish it simply grows.
on a fundamental level in an ideal world where children are educated as to the consequences of their actions and how they impact on others in a society with zero tolerance there is no difference. however we dont live in that world as such there has to be a grey zone where you are allowed to become aware of the consequences of your actions. that grey zone has to end somewhere
Written by: coleman
i see your logic but what exactly do you base this psycology on?
you seem to have opinions that do not consider that there is a even possibility that a murderer can become reformed - that somehow commiting the act overides any other influences post or previous.
i think that everything is possible, technically you could uncake a cake but whether you would want to put all the effect in to making it happen is a whole other question. if there where 100 ppl left on the face of the planet i would say yes its a good idea to invest the time and resources to help that person however when around 60 million people are dieing from starvation every year im inclined to say no thats not such a good use of resources.
ok so that aside ill elaborate a little as to how the person changes and why the acts stay with them forever. the work of drs hal and sidra stone say (im horribly oversimplifying their system)
1. we are born with a clean state
2. as we experience the world we develop subpersonalitys (NOTE this is different to split personalities as subpersonalities are aware of each other actions split personalities are not) to keep us safe in the world, examples your pusher subpersonality is when your at work, your beach bum subpersonality is when your lazy, they are different patterns of behaviour that you have learnt and use to cope and be safe in different environments
3. when we embrase one subpersonality we repress the opposite
4. the repressed subpersonality does not vanish an analogy they use is putting a baby snake in a box, with time it doesnt die instead it grows and grows until we have to sit on the box to stop it from bursting out
5. we all identify with a group of primary subpersonalities which we consider to be "us"
so whatever subpersonality that was formed at a young age and caused those children to behave the way they did its learnt behavour patterns stay with the child as they grow up and is apart of them (not just the act but the subpersonality itself) for the rest of their lives, no ammount of councilling can remove it as it is a part of you, if it was a primary subpersonality even if the children then supressed it after the murder it doesnt vanish it simply grows.
Written by: coleman
until you explain what exactly the difference is between murder and any other act that is recognised as 'wrong', you will contradict yourself:
on a fundamental level in an ideal world where children are educated as to the consequences of their actions and how they impact on others in a society with zero tolerance there is no difference. however we dont live in that world as such there has to be a grey zone where you are allowed to become aware of the consequences of your actions. that grey zone has to end somewhere
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
so you're not actually saying that a murderer can't be reforemed at all?
you're just saying you think it is one of the hardest things to help someone to overcome and as such is an unjustifyable drain on society?
i agree with that.
cole. x
Written by: ben-ja-menWritten by: coleman
i see your logic but what exactly do you base this psycology on?
you seem to have opinions that do not consider that there is a even possibility that a murderer can become reformed - that somehow commiting the act overides any other influences post or previous.
i think that everything is possible, technically you could uncake a cake but whether you would want to put all the effect in to making it happen is a whole other question. if there where 100 ppl left on the face of the planet i would say yes its a good idea to invest the time and resources to help that person however when around 60 million people are dieing from starvation every year im inclined to say no thats not such a good use of resources.
so you're not actually saying that a murderer can't be reforemed at all?
you're just saying you think it is one of the hardest things to help someone to overcome and as such is an unjustifyable drain on society?
i agree with that.
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
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