Forums > Social Discussion > Talking......Do You Think it Would Work
Login/Join to ParticipateGod's illgitament son
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
Posted:
Ok this is going to get interesting to say the least.......
I was talking to my father last nite, and we got on the topic of the Iraq war. Now my father is retired military and a republican, but still thinks this war was wrong and has gone on long enough. We began to discuse what we thought might bring an end to this war. My idea caused an even longer discussion between the 2 of us, he saw my points and I his, but we never agree when it comes to politics........so now that you know the back story heres my idea................
Bush and Osama sit down and discuse how to bring and end to this war. Now I know that sounds like some hairbrain idea, and it will most likely never happen, but on the other side of that coin, it has never been tryed.
Now from what I can gather, the problem on Osama's side is America's policy towards the muslim world. Now I looked into this, what I found (and again I do understand that I might or did miss something) was that the problem is the U.S. is giving aid to Israel. If it realy is something this small, then shouldn't there be a peacefull solution?
At this point there have been so many deaths, on both sides. People have lost, fathers, brothers, sisters, mothers, and best friends. It's apparent that this war will not end with a decided victor, so why not try talking........I don't know maby I'm just a hopless pacifist, but in the wake of Asian tsunami, and the mudslide in California, and the 4 storms my state faced we have lost so so so many people, why continue to kill?
Ok I'm done.........your thoughts please......and keep it nice people, i understand that this "talking" idea is not the most popular, but DO NOT attack any ones ideas.......thank you F>F
Ok this is going to get interesting to say the least.......
I was talking to my father last nite, and we got on the topic of the Iraq war. Now my father is retired military and a republican, but still thinks this war was wrong and has gone on long enough. We began to discuse what we thought might bring an end to this war. My idea caused an even longer discussion between the 2 of us, he saw my points and I his, but we never agree when it comes to politics........so now that you know the back story heres my idea................
Bush and Osama sit down and discuse how to bring and end to this war. Now I know that sounds like some hairbrain idea, and it will most likely never happen, but on the other side of that coin, it has never been tryed.
Now from what I can gather, the problem on Osama's side is America's policy towards the muslim world. Now I looked into this, what I found (and again I do understand that I might or did miss something) was that the problem is the U.S. is giving aid to Israel. If it realy is something this small, then shouldn't there be a peacefull solution?
At this point there have been so many deaths, on both sides. People have lost, fathers, brothers, sisters, mothers, and best friends. It's apparent that this war will not end with a decided victor, so why not try talking........I don't know maby I'm just a hopless pacifist, but in the wake of Asian tsunami, and the mudslide in California, and the 4 storms my state faced we have lost so so so many people, why continue to kill?
Ok I'm done.........your thoughts please......and keep it nice people, i understand that this "talking" idea is not the most popular, but DO NOT attack any ones ideas.......thank you F>F
You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too
GOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
Posted:
I agree it could work, but it'll never happen unfortunately becuase of both parties not either one of them.
Maybe one day the world will wake up and realise somethings are more important, but probably not in our lifetime
I agree it could work, but it'll never happen unfortunately becuase of both parties not either one of them.
Maybe one day the world will wake up and realise somethings are more important, but probably not in our lifetime
Let's relight this forum 
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
Lol, don't be so defensive FF, your views are as valid as anyone elses.
And I fully agree... the leaders of any conflict should at least have the decency to sit down and talk to one another (putting the issue of winning the next election aside), before sending young men and women to kill each other.
However, Osama bin Laden has nothing to do with Iraq. His war was the treatment by America of the muslim world. And that is a huge issue which cannot be resolved through Israel. It is much deeper than that - right down to America's domination and oppression of the world economy and the subsequent spread of Americanisation (western culture).
If that is to be fixed, it needs a huge effort - I'm crossing my fingers, but am not particularly hopeful, for the G8 summit. (You are right in that backing away from Israel would have been a sign of good faith - so to speak
).
As for negotations with Saddam... well, my view is they shouldn't be there in the first place. But negotiation should have been tried before the invasion... I fear it is too late now... too many families torn apart, too many abuses of human rights. America will be hated for decades in that country (rather like they still are in many parts of Vietnam).
Tis sad
Lol, don't be so defensive FF, your views are as valid as anyone elses.
And I fully agree... the leaders of any conflict should at least have the decency to sit down and talk to one another (putting the issue of winning the next election aside), before sending young men and women to kill each other.
However, Osama bin Laden has nothing to do with Iraq. His war was the treatment by America of the muslim world. And that is a huge issue which cannot be resolved through Israel. It is much deeper than that - right down to America's domination and oppression of the world economy and the subsequent spread of Americanisation (western culture).
If that is to be fixed, it needs a huge effort - I'm crossing my fingers, but am not particularly hopeful, for the G8 summit. (You are right in that backing away from Israel would have been a sign of good faith - so to speak
).As for negotations with Saddam... well, my view is they shouldn't be there in the first place. But negotiation should have been tried before the invasion... I fear it is too late now... too many families torn apart, too many abuses of human rights. America will be hated for decades in that country (rather like they still are in many parts of Vietnam).
Tis sad
Getting to the other side 
God's illgitament son
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
Posted:
I know Osama has nothing to do with Iraq, but the 9/11 attacks are the reason we are in Iraq, thats why they are in the same topic.
As for Sadam, there are 2 sides to that. !) he was a a verry harsh dictator and was a threat to his people but.......2) look at the out come of ousting him.......complete chaos.....so was the cure worse than the sickness (so to speak)
I know Osama has nothing to do with Iraq, but the 9/11 attacks are the reason we are in Iraq, thats why they are in the same topic.
As for Sadam, there are 2 sides to that. !) he was a a verry harsh dictator and was a threat to his people but.......2) look at the out come of ousting him.......complete chaos.....so was the cure worse than the sickness (so to speak)
You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too
SILVER Member
old hand
768 posts
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
old hand
768 posts
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
Posted:
The "talking" idea really should be the way of the world. We'd all be better off. If only the leaders in question were reasonable men. But they're both fundamentalists (one Christian and one Muslim) and one thing fundamentalists of any kind are incapable of is seeing where the "other" is coming from.
I do want to add that the U.S. giving aid to Israel is no small thing, particularly in light of Israel's flagrant disregard for the borders established after the 1968 war. The bottom line is the U.S. is essentially underwriting Israel's military capacity -- without U.S. aid Israel simply would not be able to continue their occupation of Palestinian territories. I think that to the Arab world, the Israel/Palestine conflict and the U.S. occupation of Iraq are two fronts in the same war, (something that most U.S. citizens seem incapable of comprehending) and that is the Western world's take-over -- militarily, economically and culturally -- of the Arab world.
The "talking" idea really should be the way of the world. We'd all be better off. If only the leaders in question were reasonable men. But they're both fundamentalists (one Christian and one Muslim) and one thing fundamentalists of any kind are incapable of is seeing where the "other" is coming from.
I do want to add that the U.S. giving aid to Israel is no small thing, particularly in light of Israel's flagrant disregard for the borders established after the 1968 war. The bottom line is the U.S. is essentially underwriting Israel's military capacity -- without U.S. aid Israel simply would not be able to continue their occupation of Palestinian territories. I think that to the Arab world, the Israel/Palestine conflict and the U.S. occupation of Iraq are two fronts in the same war, (something that most U.S. citizens seem incapable of comprehending) and that is the Western world's take-over -- militarily, economically and culturally -- of the Arab world.
taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco
SILVER Member
old hand
768 posts
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
old hand
768 posts
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
Posted:
I wouldn't say the 9/11 attacks are the reason we're in Iraq so much as they're the justification our leaders used to sell the war to the U.S. populace.
I wouldn't say the 9/11 attacks are the reason we're in Iraq so much as they're the justification our leaders used to sell the war to the U.S. populace.
taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco
God's illgitament son
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
Posted:
I think that you put it better so
Written by: blueboy
I wouldn't say the 9/11 attacks are the reason we're in Iraq so much as they're the justification our leaders used to sell the war to the U.S. populace.
I think that you put it better so
You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
Im still working on my plans to kidnap the pair of them and lock them in a toilet with each other....
Then 30 mins later send int eh interpreter.
Bush would probably say something like "The hopes and dreams of good honest American citizens will never be able to be understooded by this mass murdering, freedom hating, mental fundamentalist terrorist."
Or something like that but with more gramatical errors.
Im still working on my plans to kidnap the pair of them and lock them in a toilet with each other....
Then 30 mins later send int eh interpreter.
Bush would probably say something like "The hopes and dreams of good honest American citizens will never be able to be understooded by this mass murdering, freedom hating, mental fundamentalist terrorist."
Or something like that but with more gramatical errors.
SILVER Member
no excuses. no apologies.
1,799 posts
Location: aotearoa, New Zealand
no excuses. no apologies.
1,799 posts
Location: aotearoa, New Zealand
Posted:
makes me queasy just thinking about it all..
pass me my poi and my minidisc, im going out to play.
makes me queasy just thinking about it all..
pass me my poi and my minidisc, im going out to play.
those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
Blueboy... I agree, Israel is no small thing... but it is part of a larger picture
Jon, great idea sunshine... can I suggest the loo from Trainspotting?
Blueboy... I agree, Israel is no small thing... but it is part of a larger picture
Jon, great idea sunshine... can I suggest the loo from Trainspotting?
Getting to the other side
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
I don't think many of the Iraqis currently shooting at our boys would claim any allegance to Osama.
I think you've got your facts seriously wrong and have greatly oversimplified why the Iraqis are shooting at us. You've also greatly oversimplified GWB's motivation for being in Iraq and why we're shooting at them.
I'm sad to see that Bush's plan to link Iraq and Osama worked so well in your mind even though an independant invesigation by the 9/11 found little link.
I blame gay marriage.
I don't think many of the Iraqis currently shooting at our boys would claim any allegance to Osama.
I think you've got your facts seriously wrong and have greatly oversimplified why the Iraqis are shooting at us. You've also greatly oversimplified GWB's motivation for being in Iraq and why we're shooting at them.
I'm sad to see that Bush's plan to link Iraq and Osama worked so well in your mind even though an independant invesigation by the 9/11 found little link.
I blame gay marriage.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
God's illgitament son
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
Posted:
NYC do to our past problems, im simply saying this
i know what i put, no i have not got facts wrong, and yes i did over simplify this, because i was making a direct point, how ever if you want to get technical then lets.............
bush's intentions for going to war in iraq change from person to person, the larger consensis thinks it was for oil, others to oust sadam for trying to kill bush sr. so i can guess you fall in to the first consensis sense you probubly didnt fallow current events when bush sr wasin office, hell i hardly did
as for who the iraq people claim allegance to, well it depends on their pary, as im sure you know there are several dif parties over there, the baath party, still loyal to sadam.....the the sunni tribes, and the shiite party (sunnis are mostly iraq while that shiite party are mostly iran muslims)
the ones that we are faceing with this insurgency are the shiits (who we trained)..........so, next time you wish to question my wording on a discussion, pm first ok
P.S. on the 9/11 part of your post......ever hear of 6 degrees of seperation.......if you look hard enough you can link everyone to everyone with in 6 people..........while not clear to the public, im sure at one point in time osama was in iraq, and at the time thats all the intel our wonderfull government (sarcasim intended) needed.....
NYC do to our past problems, im simply saying this
i know what i put, no i have not got facts wrong, and yes i did over simplify this, because i was making a direct point, how ever if you want to get technical then lets.............
bush's intentions for going to war in iraq change from person to person, the larger consensis thinks it was for oil, others to oust sadam for trying to kill bush sr. so i can guess you fall in to the first consensis sense you probubly didnt fallow current events when bush sr wasin office, hell i hardly did
as for who the iraq people claim allegance to, well it depends on their pary, as im sure you know there are several dif parties over there, the baath party, still loyal to sadam.....the the sunni tribes, and the shiite party (sunnis are mostly iraq while that shiite party are mostly iran muslims)
the ones that we are faceing with this insurgency are the shiits (who we trained)..........so, next time you wish to question my wording on a discussion, pm first ok
P.S. on the 9/11 part of your post......ever hear of 6 degrees of seperation.......if you look hard enough you can link everyone to everyone with in 6 people..........while not clear to the public, im sure at one point in time osama was in iraq, and at the time thats all the intel our wonderfull government (sarcasim intended) needed.....
You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too
SILVER Member
Star Trekker
1,733 posts
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom
Star Trekker
1,733 posts
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom
Posted:
This is the worst thing about going into iraq - nevermind the justification (or lack of it), motivation (oil) or connections, the world finds itself in a much worse position than it did prior to the invasion.
Firepoise I hope I don't offend you by this analogy, but just look what sending in the military too soon did to Ireland - once 'innocent civilians' are killed, families become united against an enemy which has a name and a face. Occupation doesn't work to bring about peace unless it's brief and to the point and the longer it goes on, the more entrenched the hatred becomes and further away from resolution.
I wish shoving them both in a room to talk would work - but i fear it's gone too far and wide and deep for that now
Written by: Firepoise
As for negotations with Saddam... well, my view is they shouldn't be there in the first place. But negotiation should have been tried before the invasion... I fear it is too late now... too many families torn apart, too many abuses of human rights. America will be hated for decades in that country (rather like they still are in many parts of Vietnam).
Tis sad
This is the worst thing about going into iraq - nevermind the justification (or lack of it), motivation (oil) or connections, the world finds itself in a much worse position than it did prior to the invasion.
Firepoise I hope I don't offend you by this analogy, but just look what sending in the military too soon did to Ireland - once 'innocent civilians' are killed, families become united against an enemy which has a name and a face. Occupation doesn't work to bring about peace unless it's brief and to the point and the longer it goes on, the more entrenched the hatred becomes and further away from resolution.
I wish shoving them both in a room to talk would work - but i fear it's gone too far and wide and deep for that now
'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
Ohhhhh
The British army should never have been in Ireland. But they are, and were, and it was a long time ago now. Fighting over that occupation/presence broke out and there were deaths on all sides - this rings true of every occupation.
And you are very right Wild Child... the longer an occupation continues, the more entrenched the hatred becomes. Human Rights abuses and murders are carried out on all sides, and the hatred grows and is passed down through the generations.
Unfortunately, here in Norn Iron, the 'shoving them in a room to work it out' tactic has failed - as evidenced by the farcical shambles of a peace process we have. Ian Paisley (DUP) and Gerry Adams (Sinn Fein) have brought shame on themselves and their supporters by their intransigent stances.
These two have the opportunity to set up a power-sharing agreement in Northern Ireland - we could govern ourselves - and instead, they get petty about whether IRA decommissioning should be photographed or not (not whether it should happen, that has been agreed... just the frickin photographs).
Anyhows, (calm, breath), it's all a mess... in 35 years of violence in this country we've seen around 4,000 deaths for a country of a million and three quarters. In a couple of years of US invasion in Iraq, I believe the death toll stands around 18,000. How long will that bitterness and resentment remain?!!
Ok, am away home now.
Take care
Clare x
Ohhhhh
The British army should never have been in Ireland. But they are, and were, and it was a long time ago now. Fighting over that occupation/presence broke out and there were deaths on all sides - this rings true of every occupation.
And you are very right Wild Child... the longer an occupation continues, the more entrenched the hatred becomes. Human Rights abuses and murders are carried out on all sides, and the hatred grows and is passed down through the generations.
Unfortunately, here in Norn Iron, the 'shoving them in a room to work it out' tactic has failed - as evidenced by the farcical shambles of a peace process we have. Ian Paisley (DUP) and Gerry Adams (Sinn Fein) have brought shame on themselves and their supporters by their intransigent stances.
These two have the opportunity to set up a power-sharing agreement in Northern Ireland - we could govern ourselves - and instead, they get petty about whether IRA decommissioning should be photographed or not (not whether it should happen, that has been agreed... just the frickin photographs).
Anyhows, (calm, breath), it's all a mess... in 35 years of violence in this country we've seen around 4,000 deaths for a country of a million and three quarters. In a couple of years of US invasion in Iraq, I believe the death toll stands around 18,000. How long will that bitterness and resentment remain?!!
Ok, am away home now.
Take care
Clare x
Getting to the other side
SILVER Member
Star Trekker
1,733 posts
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom
Star Trekker
1,733 posts
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom
Posted:
We're of a mind. Night love
e
x
We're of a mind. Night love
e
x
'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus
God's illgitament son
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
Posted:
the occupation thing is a good point.
now im not sure as to the validity of this as i havent researched it myslef yet, but one of myfriends who is studying as a history major, said no one party or country has occupied the iraq, iran area for to long. the local residents fight to hard and with to much resolve for any one but them to hold that part of the world
the occupation thing is a good point.
now im not sure as to the validity of this as i havent researched it myslef yet, but one of myfriends who is studying as a history major, said no one party or country has occupied the iraq, iran area for to long. the local residents fight to hard and with to much resolve for any one but them to hold that part of the world
You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too
SILVER Member
Pasta of Muppets
2,722 posts
Location: in the interwebs..., United Kingdom
Pasta of Muppets
2,722 posts
Location: in the interwebs..., United Kingdom
Posted:
I personally believe its all about Oil and GWB fixing Dad's mistake.
9/11 was, and i dont mean any offence to the people of the USA, a convenient excuse for GWB to put in action all the policies that a Christian Fundamentalist politician would dream of. I believe over there you now have more contraints of your freedom than ever before, if you are not a white christian man.
I was always told "look for the money". The world's oil reserves are running out, therefore anyone would look to control as much of the worlds oil supply as possible. Why then do they overlook human rights in other parts of the world?
The best hope for us all is Siberia and the rest of Russia, where there is likely to be huge (and i mean HUGE) oil reserves. and thank God, Russia will not kowtow to the USA, or anyone else for that matter.
Call me cynical if you will, but putting such people with interests in a room and telling them to sort it out, short of electric straps and an acid footbath, won't work. i totally agree with Firepoise and Wild Child on that point.
Billy Connolly "The mere fact that someone wants to be a politician should immediately prevent them from ever becoming one"
The English kid in South Park the Movie, in reference to USA policy "Home of the free indeed..."
My 1/2p's worth
I personally believe its all about Oil and GWB fixing Dad's mistake.
9/11 was, and i dont mean any offence to the people of the USA, a convenient excuse for GWB to put in action all the policies that a Christian Fundamentalist politician would dream of. I believe over there you now have more contraints of your freedom than ever before, if you are not a white christian man.
I was always told "look for the money". The world's oil reserves are running out, therefore anyone would look to control as much of the worlds oil supply as possible. Why then do they overlook human rights in other parts of the world?
The best hope for us all is Siberia and the rest of Russia, where there is likely to be huge (and i mean HUGE) oil reserves. and thank God, Russia will not kowtow to the USA, or anyone else for that matter.
Call me cynical if you will, but putting such people with interests in a room and telling them to sort it out, short of electric straps and an acid footbath, won't work. i totally agree with Firepoise and Wild Child on that point.
Billy Connolly "The mere fact that someone wants to be a politician should immediately prevent them from ever becoming one"
The English kid in South Park the Movie, in reference to USA policy "Home of the free indeed..."
My 1/2p's worth
ohmygodlaserbeamspewpewpew!
God's illgitament son
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
Posted:
you could not be more right flash
Written by: =Flashpoint=
I believe over there you now have more contraints of your freedom than ever before, if you are not a white christian man.
you could not be more right flash
You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too
SILVER Member
Pasta of Muppets
2,722 posts
Location: in the interwebs..., United Kingdom
Pasta of Muppets
2,722 posts
Location: in the interwebs..., United Kingdom
Posted:
BTW fish, your sig (when i actually read it) had me on the floor!
BTW fish, your sig (when i actually read it) had me on the floor!
ohmygodlaserbeamspewpewpew!
God's illgitament son
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
Posted:
Thank you, i cant take credit for it, it was a shirt i use to own......so i take it you get it right
Thank you, i cant take credit for it, it was a shirt i use to own......so i take it you get it right
You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too
SILVER Member
Pasta of Muppets
2,722 posts
Location: in the interwebs..., United Kingdom
Pasta of Muppets
2,722 posts
Location: in the interwebs..., United Kingdom
Posted:
indeedy! Pac man is third in the old skool classix chart, right after Asteroids and Space Invaders, anyway... IMHO
indeedy! Pac man is third in the old skool classix chart, right after Asteroids and Space Invaders, anyway... IMHO
ohmygodlaserbeamspewpewpew!
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
There's no way talking will work because there's no single leader or group of leaders on the Iraqi rebels side. Ideally people would be able to talk out their problems and compromise, but unfortunately few humans work that way and we soon become blind to other ways of thinking and become greedy and worry too much about what we've giving up, not what we might end up losing.
Here's the long bit why OBL has nothing to do with it, and there's no leaders:
The insurgency is mainly Iraqi Sunni Muslims angry at the way they're treated by the Americans and the Shia majority (in the rest of the muslim world Sunnis are the majority). There's currently and estimated 200,000 insurgents, with about 40,000 being 'hard core' fighters. These Iraqis are not all religious fanatics - they're doing what you'd expect oppressed, humiliated, poverty inflicted people would do: fight for their freedom and fight for revenge for the wrongs committed against them. What would you do if Arabs invaded your city, reduced most of it to rubble and left you living in a room with a dozen other people and you happened to have a machine gun?
So there's very little connection between OBL and the Iraq insurgency. What connection there is is through the ideology of a small number of Islamic fundamentalists of whom OBL was a follower of and happened to be a relatively rich but relatively insignificant ideologist who used to pay people to pose as his militia in videos. His power only grew when the West decided they needed a boogie man and he went on to become a figurehead for the ideas he shared with only a few, and those ideas spread. OBL is, as much as anything else, a great publicist.
The insurgency in Iraq has as some of it's members fundamentalist Muslims who believe that if fellow Muslims do not rise up against their evil foe then they are not true Muslims and so valid targets of violence designed to ignite the country into rebellion. These acts in themselves have some effect on the population, but the main cause of the people's anger is the response by the American army and an Iraqi government and army that are seen by most, even their supporters, as America's stooges. The American military and leadership consistency fails to understand Arab mentality and social structures and so acts to cause upmost offence and so push more people towards hatred on the Americans an their puppet government.
So maybe the people who need to talk to each other are the experts on Arabic culture in the UK and USA, and the people in charge of this mess. Because in universities and government departments across the world you'll find people who predicted this mess, advised otherwise, and were ignored.
Except that now it's considered by most of them to be far too late. Increasing violence and a civil war is almost inevitable. The elections are due soon and many people haven't been registered to vote and some areas will not be allowed to vote, immediately disenfranchising the social and tribal groups across Iraq. With USA troops in Iraq or not the place is going to be hell for a good while. If you're not seeing bad news about Iraq on TV it's not because life is suddenly better: the media has just got bored.
Pessimistic, isn't it
There's no way talking will work because there's no single leader or group of leaders on the Iraqi rebels side. Ideally people would be able to talk out their problems and compromise, but unfortunately few humans work that way and we soon become blind to other ways of thinking and become greedy and worry too much about what we've giving up, not what we might end up losing.
Here's the long bit why OBL has nothing to do with it, and there's no leaders:
The insurgency is mainly Iraqi Sunni Muslims angry at the way they're treated by the Americans and the Shia majority (in the rest of the muslim world Sunnis are the majority). There's currently and estimated 200,000 insurgents, with about 40,000 being 'hard core' fighters. These Iraqis are not all religious fanatics - they're doing what you'd expect oppressed, humiliated, poverty inflicted people would do: fight for their freedom and fight for revenge for the wrongs committed against them. What would you do if Arabs invaded your city, reduced most of it to rubble and left you living in a room with a dozen other people and you happened to have a machine gun?
So there's very little connection between OBL and the Iraq insurgency. What connection there is is through the ideology of a small number of Islamic fundamentalists of whom OBL was a follower of and happened to be a relatively rich but relatively insignificant ideologist who used to pay people to pose as his militia in videos. His power only grew when the West decided they needed a boogie man and he went on to become a figurehead for the ideas he shared with only a few, and those ideas spread. OBL is, as much as anything else, a great publicist.
The insurgency in Iraq has as some of it's members fundamentalist Muslims who believe that if fellow Muslims do not rise up against their evil foe then they are not true Muslims and so valid targets of violence designed to ignite the country into rebellion. These acts in themselves have some effect on the population, but the main cause of the people's anger is the response by the American army and an Iraqi government and army that are seen by most, even their supporters, as America's stooges. The American military and leadership consistency fails to understand Arab mentality and social structures and so acts to cause upmost offence and so push more people towards hatred on the Americans an their puppet government.
So maybe the people who need to talk to each other are the experts on Arabic culture in the UK and USA, and the people in charge of this mess. Because in universities and government departments across the world you'll find people who predicted this mess, advised otherwise, and were ignored.
Except that now it's considered by most of them to be far too late. Increasing violence and a civil war is almost inevitable. The elections are due soon and many people haven't been registered to vote and some areas will not be allowed to vote, immediately disenfranchising the social and tribal groups across Iraq. With USA troops in Iraq or not the place is going to be hell for a good while. If you're not seeing bad news about Iraq on TV it's not because life is suddenly better: the media has just got bored.
Pessimistic, isn't it
God's illgitament son
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
Posted:
Pessimistic...a litle, but well thought out and well put......
and the last part about the media being bored, i could not agree more, its almost to were you haveto do a google search to get current events in iraq
Pessimistic...a litle, but well thought out and well put......
and the last part about the media being bored, i could not agree more, its almost to were you haveto do a google search to get current events in iraq
You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
Excellent points Dom, well made.
I have nothing else really to add, except that I believe that sooner or later (probably later) a leader, or leading group will emerge from the insurgents. Maybe around then whatever makeshift and ineffective leadership the US has installed in Iraq will be able to begin negotiations.
In 10 years time, will America stand back and look at the chaos it has created?!
I wish it was just pessimistic... it's realistic too.
xx
Edit: That the media has moved on from Iraq should not surprise anyone at this stage. We've had a massive disaster which has turned attentions away - sadly even that is sliding down the agenda now.
EDITED_BY: Firepoise (1105491219)
Excellent points Dom, well made.
I have nothing else really to add, except that I believe that sooner or later (probably later) a leader, or leading group will emerge from the insurgents. Maybe around then whatever makeshift and ineffective leadership the US has installed in Iraq will be able to begin negotiations.
In 10 years time, will America stand back and look at the chaos it has created?!
I wish it was just pessimistic... it's realistic too.
xx
Edit: That the media has moved on from Iraq should not surprise anyone at this stage. We've had a massive disaster which has turned attentions away - sadly even that is sliding down the agenda now.
EDITED_BY: Firepoise (1105491219)
Getting to the other side
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Well said. I appreciate your diplomacy as well. No, I don't really want to get technical. My buddy Dom is far more eliquant on the topic. I just wanted to say that you were oversimplifying which we both agree.
I'm way way way over any past topics. You've shown quite a bit of respect for the boards and the site which was my only initial concern.
Damn, I can't type anything without sounding all serious. Pesky internet making everything look overly important.
You guys hash this one out. I just spent two beers worth talking about it at a pub with a buddy.
Peace.
Written by: Fryed Fish
NYC do to our past problems, im simply saying this
i know what i put, no i have not got facts wrong, and yes i did over simplify this, because i was making a direct point, how ever if you want to get technical then lets.............
Well said. I appreciate your diplomacy as well. No, I don't really want to get technical. My buddy Dom is far more eliquant on the topic. I just wanted to say that you were oversimplifying which we both agree.
I'm way way way over any past topics. You've shown quite a bit of respect for the boards and the site which was my only initial concern.
Damn, I can't type anything without sounding all serious. Pesky internet making everything look overly important.
You guys hash this one out. I just spent two beers worth talking about it at a pub with a buddy.
Peace.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
"I just spent two beers worth talking about it at a pub with a buddy."
The only way! Pesky nightshift, don't get to the pub these days at all!
hugs all round
xx
"I just spent two beers worth talking about it at a pub with a buddy."
The only way! Pesky nightshift, don't get to the pub these days at all!
hugs all roundxx
Getting to the other side
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
now right there is where I perceive a flaw in your plan.
if Bush and Osama were to talk, it wouldn't be about ending the war, but rather about how they can both extend it to further each of their needs. Bush and Osmama have a symbiotic relationship - this whole mess is the best thing that ever happened to both of them. I wouldn't even be too suprised to find out they did talk to each other - say about 6 month before 9/11, and things are pretty much going according to plan for both of them right now. Even if that isn't true, I hope you can at least see the point that Bush's power is increased 10 fold since 9/11, and so has Osama's. It is not something either wants to give up now, even if they came upon it unplanned.
Written by: Fryed Fish
Bush and Osama sit down and discuse how to bring and end to this war. Now I know that sounds like some hairbrain idea, and it will most likely never happen, but on the other side of that coin, it has never been tryed.
now right there is where I perceive a flaw in your plan.
if Bush and Osama were to talk, it wouldn't be about ending the war, but rather about how they can both extend it to further each of their needs. Bush and Osmama have a symbiotic relationship - this whole mess is the best thing that ever happened to both of them. I wouldn't even be too suprised to find out they did talk to each other - say about 6 month before 9/11, and things are pretty much going according to plan for both of them right now. Even if that isn't true, I hope you can at least see the point that Bush's power is increased 10 fold since 9/11, and so has Osama's. It is not something either wants to give up now, even if they came upon it unplanned.
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
SILVER Member
Star Trekker
1,733 posts
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom
Star Trekker
1,733 posts
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom
Posted:
And I'm cynical about that too (the media has that affect on my otherwise positive nature!). The Tsunami enables the Western world to get on and throw money and resource (manpower, skills & equipment) at a problem for which it feels no guilt.
When it comes to 3rd world poverty Western World has a real problem cos they/we know it's solvable and nothing short of disgusting that people are starving to death when we have and waste so much - but the solution requires giving up something we've got and curtailing Big Businesses' interests in those afflicted countries.
hell, they're already talking about freezing Debt repayments in the Tsunami countries....
Sorry - pee's me off
Written by: Firepoise
Edit: That the media has moved on from Iraq should not surprise anyone at this stage. We've had a massive disaster which has turned attentions away - sadly even that is sliding down the agenda now.
And I'm cynical about that too (the media has that affect on my otherwise positive nature!). The Tsunami enables the Western world to get on and throw money and resource (manpower, skills & equipment) at a problem for which it feels no guilt.
When it comes to 3rd world poverty Western World has a real problem cos they/we know it's solvable and nothing short of disgusting that people are starving to death when we have and waste so much - but the solution requires giving up something we've got and curtailing Big Businesses' interests in those afflicted countries.
hell, they're already talking about freezing Debt repayments in the Tsunami countries....
Sorry - pee's me off
'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
I don't think it's true to say that the rest of the world feels no guilt. If these countries had been wealthier (perhaps) not so many people would have died.
It's hard to criticise the relief effort because it is badly needed, but it does raise questions about why we are not so generous when we hear of another African famine or drought or massacre.
Gordon Brown is in Africa at the minute:
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4167407.stm
This morning on a TV news programme they were talking about Brown's proposed increase in aid. An African spokesman made the point, very forcefully, that the aid was welcome, but would not solve anything.
It is the corruption of the leaders, the lack of trade agreements with the Western world and imported subsidised goods from the West that is keeping Africa poor.
Let's hope Brown realises this while he's being chauffeured around the shanty towns.
And Wild Child, certainly freeze debt payments for the tsunami affected countries... maybe it will spread to other parts of the world and eventually all debt will be dropped!
"I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one"
Dom, I wanted to say, it's not often that something written on these boards really stays with me through the day, but your comment:
"We soon become blind to other ways of thinking and become greedy and worry too much about what we're giving up, not what we might end up losing."
really struck a chord with me.
It's interesting how a thought worded differently can ring more clear...
It's so true that we spend our time worrying about what we haven't got and needing more, until giving anything becomes a challenge. Eventually we lose sight of the things that are really being lost - things that make us human and that we can't get back.
Take care xx
I don't think it's true to say that the rest of the world feels no guilt. If these countries had been wealthier (perhaps) not so many people would have died.
It's hard to criticise the relief effort because it is badly needed, but it does raise questions about why we are not so generous when we hear of another African famine or drought or massacre.
Gordon Brown is in Africa at the minute:
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4167407.stm
This morning on a TV news programme they were talking about Brown's proposed increase in aid. An African spokesman made the point, very forcefully, that the aid was welcome, but would not solve anything.
It is the corruption of the leaders, the lack of trade agreements with the Western world and imported subsidised goods from the West that is keeping Africa poor.
Let's hope Brown realises this while he's being chauffeured around the shanty towns.
And Wild Child, certainly freeze debt payments for the tsunami affected countries... maybe it will spread to other parts of the world and eventually all debt will be dropped!
"I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one"
Dom, I wanted to say, it's not often that something written on these boards really stays with me through the day, but your comment:
"We soon become blind to other ways of thinking and become greedy and worry too much about what we're giving up, not what we might end up losing."
really struck a chord with me.
It's interesting how a thought worded differently can ring more clear...
It's so true that we spend our time worrying about what we haven't got and needing more, until giving anything becomes a challenge. Eventually we lose sight of the things that are really being lost - things that make us human and that we can't get back.
Take care xx
Getting to the other side
enthusiast
247 posts
Location: Cork, Ireland at present
247 posts
Location: Cork, Ireland at present
Posted:
The media may have got bored with the iraqi news... but if the governments wanted the issue to be in the public eye for whatever propganda reasons, the media would report like good little boys!!!!
The media may have got bored with the iraqi news... but if the governments wanted the issue to be in the public eye for whatever propganda reasons, the media would report like good little boys!!!!
I used to be indecisive, but I'm not so sure now.....
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
Owing to the pressures of a deadline, most papers will report what information they have in front of them... that's why the government line is so often in the media - they are excellent at 'information' giving. They also, rightly or wrongly, have credibility in authority.
In the UK and Ireland anyways, the media is not part of some huge conspiracy theory (sorry to upset anyones ideas), it's just a group of people trying to do a job.
Iraq and the tsunami disaster don't get reported as consistently and continually as the editors, reporters or readers would like because not every paper in the world can afford to send staff there - think about it, a couple of thousand extra media people at each event?! It's just not realistic. Also, the majority of people who actually regularly buy newspapers do so for local news (the families, the businessmen), and if the editors ignores that demographic the paper will not remain operating.
Owing to the pressures of a deadline, most papers will report what information they have in front of them... that's why the government line is so often in the media - they are excellent at 'information' giving. They also, rightly or wrongly, have credibility in authority.
In the UK and Ireland anyways, the media is not part of some huge conspiracy theory (sorry to upset anyones ideas), it's just a group of people trying to do a job.
Iraq and the tsunami disaster don't get reported as consistently and continually as the editors, reporters or readers would like because not every paper in the world can afford to send staff there - think about it, a couple of thousand extra media people at each event?! It's just not realistic. Also, the majority of people who actually regularly buy newspapers do so for local news (the families, the businessmen), and if the editors ignores that demographic the paper will not remain operating.
Getting to the other side
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