Forums > Social Chat > Anyone want to give an opinion?...

Posted: 13th Apr 2002
I had an awesome thread or two about this at another board I used to be on a lot (until it sucked all of my life away, i'm not even kidding, i could spend seven or eight hours at a stretch there...) Can't seem to find it right now but if I do I'll let you know... if you want to look it's the Arstechnica Open Forum, go to the soapbox:) If you are having trouble finding it, I don't remember if you can search by username there but I know Sneakerlint was one of the posters... I think he started one of teh threads too...

it's a lovely subject, i'm just not ready to take another swing at it just this yet

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

Posted: 13th Apr 2002
Hey
Just so you know, i started writing a reply I was really pleased with but I had to log off my computer and lost it, doh! But I will be back with some theological ramblings that you may like...

The answer is never the answer. What's really interesting is the mystery. If you seek the mystery instead of the answer, you'll always be seeking. I've never seen anybody really find the answer-- they think they have, so they stop thinking. But the job is to seek mystery, evoke mystery, plant a garden in which strange plants grow and mysteries bloom. The need for mystery is greater than the need for an answer.-- Ken Kesey

Posted: 13th Apr 2002
Looking forward to it Wikkaman

Posted: 13th Apr 2002
Well, I would think that being an omnipotent being would get really boring after a while. You control this and you control that, and you know exactly how everything is going to turn out. So why not create a little planet with little people that have independant thought and free will to keep things interesting, kinda like some sort of divine TV set.

So what my opinion is this:
God (Jeebus) is really bored and he is just screwing with us for his own amusement.

Jesus helps me trick people.

Posted: 13th Apr 2002
In my worthless opinion, I think you are looking at "free will" in the wrong context.

The opening post seems to be saying, Allah made me do this by giving me free will and then condemns me for it.

Think abiut that for a little while. If Allah made you do it, then it's NOT free will. Free will means you are suddenly responsible for your actions and so can be condemned or respected etc etc.

Many people fall into the trap of assuming that Allah makes everything happen. He/She doesn't make our choices for us, thats what free will is, and we are then ultimately responsible for those consequences.

Well, thats my take on this age-old question anyway.

HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Posted: 13th Apr 2002
Maybe it's just a matter of consequences for our actions... If you do good things your are respected, and good things happen if you do yucky things nobody likes you and, in consequence, not so good things will come back and smack you in the face. What goes around comes around... What you put out there comes back to you... all that stuff, it's all the same

*:...one day all the fairy fridges will be aligned and my pixie world will be complete...:*

Posted: 16th Apr 2002
The point is that humans are domesticated primates (see Robert Anton Wilson, Prometheus Rising). As domesticated primates we all have biological needs and age old genetic programming. This is all well and good in hunting gathering times when we had no organised relgion to set rules and taboos, but now Many of our biological programming traits are seen as sinfull, such as reproduction. This post wasn't as good as the one I lost but Hey i tried.

[ 17 April 2002, 00:06: Message edited by: Wikkaman ]

The answer is never the answer. What's really interesting is the mystery. If you seek the mystery instead of the answer, you'll always be seeking. I've never seen anybody really find the answer-- they think they have, so they stop thinking. But the job is to seek mystery, evoke mystery, plant a garden in which strange plants grow and mysteries bloom. The need for mystery is greater than the need for an answer.-- Ken Kesey

Posted: 16th Apr 2002
Watch "Dogma" for an offbeat view of religion, freewill, and lack of it.

If you ask me, truly free will is neither permitted by religion or even society (any society) at large. You don't even have a truly free will at Burningman. Anywhere there are rules (and there are rules anywhere there is more than one person present, even if they are only present by proxy of something they built or owned or whatever), your will is constrained. This is often for particularly good reason, most of which even benifit you either directly or indirectly.

I am completely non-religious (to the point that I won't even say I am agnostic or atheist) and grew up in a household that was more or less the same (I didn't even know that the word god meant anything other than an explicative until I was about 5 or 6), but I can see the value of the tenants most religions hold as the word of god, and what I suppose is what you are referring to as him (her, it, whatever) condemning free will. Now, if we could just get those darned religious zealots to follow the word of their own religion (it seems to me that these are the exact type of people these rules were made for), then perhaps the human race could get on to doing something worthwhile.

But surely the dreams I have are too big for reality.

I think I would have like to have seen Wikkaman's original post.

[ 17 April 2002, 04:20: Message edited by: vanize ]

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Posted: 16th Apr 2002
Well, first off if this is to be a meaningfull question we must assume a few things.
1. God exists
2. God gave us free will/we have free will
3. God is all good, God is all powerful

If any of these assumptions are false then the question is rendered incomprehensible.

Now, you can either attack the assumptions made or try to find an answer to the question asked. First, God exists. Historic.y, God has been used to explain things that science could not. As our scientific knowledge increases, the role of god in our universe decreases. Just because we cannot explain everything with our current understanding of the workings of the universe does not mean that a divine being created it.

Second, God gave us free will. How do we know that we are truely free? Is it not possible that there are options that we never even think of because we were not given that option? Also, physics has become very good at predicting collision-reaction equations. Everyting in the universe is matter and follows the same equations. Then if you know (theoreticly) where every particle of matter is, and it's momentum, it would be theoreticaly possible to predict where every particle will be in the next instant and so on. Where does that leave room for free will?

Third, God is all good, god is all powerful.Terrible things happen. No religion has been able to explain this phenominon of evil without resorting to ad-hock hypothesses. When faced with this question, many religious devotees resort to such mistical answers as "it is in the name of the greater good which we will not and cannot understand", or because we have free will, we have the capacity for evil. The second answer holds better when dealing with human atrocities, but still cannot explain the existance of plagues, viruses, or any other natural disaster.

Now, assuming those three assumptions are correct, god gave us free will as the ultimate act of love. He gave us our freedom to do as we please, yet still does not condone evil and so puneshes those who do evil. *shrug*

The world is not out to get you but if you fight it you will be eaten alive

Posted: 16th Apr 2002
Ok this is the way I see it, once again you dont have to like it just accept it.

God does not want a bunch of puppets running around. Also God doesn't condem you, YOU DO!!

It's just like asking a cop when they pull you over for speeding, why do you have cars that go faster than the speed limet and then expect us to go the speed limit or slower?

God gave you the ability to make your own decisions, if you make the wrong one you get puneshed. Just like with human law. Thats the way the cookie crumbles. Fact of life.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"