Forums > Social Chat > poi as viewed by other object manipulators.
Login/Join to Participategeek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
this comes from the glow vs fire thread, but i thought as a side topic it deserved a separate discussion:
this is only partly true.
as a fanatic juggler i hear the reasons behind this one a lot. and stick up for poi in a juggling-centric world.
the reason other manipulators don't like poi is this: someone starting to juggle takes up this much space: themselves. about 3ft in front of them. and they don't move.
someone starting to poi can learn the three beat weave and dance all over the place, taking up as much space as there is available, and sometimes more than that.
jugglers tend to be a bit more singleminded on trick-learning, which in general is a static activity, and spinners are more dancey(
) and focussed on being beautiful 
. if you are trying to learn 9444455555 and some guy keeps meandering through your pattern you are going to get pissed off. whereas most spinners i know if they are hit by another spinner will shrug it off (after an apology 
) as an occupational hazard.
so this is what i mean by tim being part right.
altho low entry level is part of the problem(the fact that practically anyone can learn enough to dance in a day), most jugglers i know now accept that poi can be tricky, and wierd and wacky, and downright difficult. that doesn't stop them getting angry with what they view as a space infringement.
any opinions on this one?
incidentally it has been one of my major aims to get spinning more recognised by jugglers as a valid circus art, and i felt my mission was in some way fulfilled when luke burrage(juggler extraordinaire, hater of poi
) came up to me after a practise session at the bristol convention and said 'hey. nice poi stuff. is all that [censored] new?', and wanted to know how to get into contact staffcause he liked that too(may have just been polite, i've seen no evidence he's gone anywhere near a stick although knowing him he'll come to renegade in a year or so and spin 9 staffs at once 
)
happy cogitating and spacially-aware spinning
R
this comes from the glow vs fire thread, but i thought as a side topic it deserved a separate discussion:
Quote:
Don't know about In other countries but in the UK Poi has had a real hard time getting the respect that it deserves from other forms of object manipulation. Mainly because it's got quite a low entry level and people seemed to make the leap that if it starts easy it must all be easy. This of course is a big pile of poo, it's not about about how high or low the entry level is it's about where you can take it to.
this is only partly true.
as a fanatic juggler i hear the reasons behind this one a lot. and stick up for poi in a juggling-centric world.
the reason other manipulators don't like poi is this: someone starting to juggle takes up this much space: themselves. about 3ft in front of them. and they don't move.
someone starting to poi can learn the three beat weave and dance all over the place, taking up as much space as there is available, and sometimes more than that.
jugglers tend to be a bit more singleminded on trick-learning, which in general is a static activity, and spinners are more dancey(
) and focussed on being beautiful . if you are trying to learn 9444455555 and some guy keeps meandering through your pattern you are going to get pissed off. whereas most spinners i know if they are hit by another spinner will shrug it off (after an apology ) as an occupational hazard.so this is what i mean by tim being part right.
altho low entry level is part of the problem(the fact that practically anyone can learn enough to dance in a day), most jugglers i know now accept that poi can be tricky, and wierd and wacky, and downright difficult. that doesn't stop them getting angry with what they view as a space infringement.
any opinions on this one?
incidentally it has been one of my major aims to get spinning more recognised by jugglers as a valid circus art, and i felt my mission was in some way fulfilled when luke burrage(juggler extraordinaire, hater of poi
) came up to me after a practise session at the bristol convention and said 'hey. nice poi stuff. is all that [censored] new?', and wanted to know how to get into contact staffcause he liked that too(may have just been polite, i've seen no evidence he's gone anywhere near a stick although knowing him he'll come to renegade in a year or so and spin 9 staffs at once )happy cogitating and spacially-aware spinning
R
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
This is a subject dear to my heart; as someone who spent years juggling, then started poi just before it started appearing in juggling clubs I've seen how it was reacted to.
More recently I've become more aware of the space issues you mention (i.e. the jugglers perspective).
I've been working on a document on the poi/juggling situation which is currently 9 pages long, the main work on it recently has been to make it not only unbiased, but to try and make it so unbiased that jugglers will actually read it all the way through.
It's basically an attempt to show each sides view to the other, and based on the premise that the whole conflict thing was based on misunderstandings that can be resolved.
To summarise it very concisely, there are valid grounds for complaint concerning what jugglers have seen as a 'poi invasion' into spaces they set up; but, their approach of complaining (without looking for practical solutions), insulting spinners (whether directly, or through humour) and generally being elitist, has not helped at all.
Concerning Luke Burrage, having done a web search designed to find references to poi in juggling forums, Lukes was the only analysis of the issue that usefully addressed it in an unbiased way.
While I personally disagree with much of what he said, I respect the fact that he was objective and non insulting.
This is a subject dear to my heart; as someone who spent years juggling, then started poi just before it started appearing in juggling clubs I've seen how it was reacted to.
More recently I've become more aware of the space issues you mention (i.e. the jugglers perspective).
I've been working on a document on the poi/juggling situation which is currently 9 pages long, the main work on it recently has been to make it not only unbiased, but to try and make it so unbiased that jugglers will actually read it all the way through.
It's basically an attempt to show each sides view to the other, and based on the premise that the whole conflict thing was based on misunderstandings that can be resolved.
To summarise it very concisely, there are valid grounds for complaint concerning what jugglers have seen as a 'poi invasion' into spaces they set up; but, their approach of complaining (without looking for practical solutions), insulting spinners (whether directly, or through humour) and generally being elitist, has not helped at all.
Concerning Luke Burrage, having done a web search designed to find references to poi in juggling forums, Lukes was the only analysis of the issue that usefully addressed it in an unbiased way.
While I personally disagree with much of what he said, I respect the fact that he was objective and non insulting.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
BRONZE Member
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
the fond memories of lukes fire work poi, thanks rob you just made me laugh by making me remember that video.
i dont think luke will be back in the country unitll the EJC though, prolly doing some crazy juggling.
back to the thread:
i got into poi, i now dont poi much, when i do its all good, my brain is constantly being fed ideas from other resources.
i juggle too much right now, im in the park as often as i can trying to get 3 clubs and think of new patterens with them, i got doubles consistently yesterday so im happy with that.
as for entry levels, i think learning to poi and to juggle are equally as hard as each other to get to a certain level, poi can be made to look so easy but we all know different.
juggling teaching wise has its benefits, if the person being taught is focused on site swap and can understand and go away and practice, juggling with numbers like that 441 you taught me the other weekis a lot easy for me to get to grips with, none of this you rigth hand has to be in this possition and so on so forth malark you get with teaching poi.
i think slowly the juggling society is coming to terms with the whole poi thing, especially here in the UK, there are so many people now learning poi and the demand to get better is increasing all of the time, i think we in the UK are more fortunate that we have a higher standard of spinners, dont get me wrong, every where has standards, but i feel like there has been so much new poi stuff come from london than any where else and every one is getting so damn good. i think with all the standards getting so high and most of us into juggling as well and turning up at juggling conventions its getting far more better recognition now, and hopefully more in the next few years.
as for the rest of the world i wouldnt be able to contribute on the subject, i havnt experienced any thing out side of the UK.
things are looking up for the poi world, i hope other manipulation societies will join us and find a better understanding of whats driving the poi scene world wide.
resources are ever growing and more and more communities are popping up around theirs, so why not be open minded about poi.
being good at some thing isnt the be all and end all, its about the benefits you get from it personally and doing what you enjoy.
i enjoy unicycling, juggling and poi... it keeps me sane in a way, i keeps my brain occupied, keeps me fit, i like to do them all as much as i can and inturprate them all into each other in the way of patterns.
anyway be kewl... nice topic.
the fond memories of lukes fire work poi, thanks rob you just made me laugh by making me remember that video.i dont think luke will be back in the country unitll the EJC though, prolly doing some crazy juggling.
back to the thread:
i got into poi, i now dont poi much, when i do its all good, my brain is constantly being fed ideas from other resources.
i juggle too much right now, im in the park as often as i can trying to get 3 clubs and think of new patterens with them, i got doubles consistently yesterday so im happy with that.
as for entry levels, i think learning to poi and to juggle are equally as hard as each other to get to a certain level, poi can be made to look so easy but we all know different.
juggling teaching wise has its benefits, if the person being taught is focused on site swap and can understand and go away and practice, juggling with numbers like that 441 you taught me the other weekis a lot easy for me to get to grips with, none of this you rigth hand has to be in this possition and so on so forth malark you get with teaching poi.
i think slowly the juggling society is coming to terms with the whole poi thing, especially here in the UK, there are so many people now learning poi and the demand to get better is increasing all of the time, i think we in the UK are more fortunate that we have a higher standard of spinners, dont get me wrong, every where has standards, but i feel like there has been so much new poi stuff come from london than any where else and every one is getting so damn good. i think with all the standards getting so high and most of us into juggling as well and turning up at juggling conventions its getting far more better recognition now, and hopefully more in the next few years.
as for the rest of the world i wouldnt be able to contribute on the subject, i havnt experienced any thing out side of the UK.
things are looking up for the poi world, i hope other manipulation societies will join us and find a better understanding of whats driving the poi scene world wide.
resources are ever growing and more and more communities are popping up around theirs, so why not be open minded about poi.
being good at some thing isnt the be all and end all, its about the benefits you get from it personally and doing what you enjoy.
i enjoy unicycling, juggling and poi... it keeps me sane in a way, i keeps my brain occupied, keeps me fit, i like to do them all as much as i can and inturprate them all into each other in the way of patterns.
anyway be kewl... nice topic.
geek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
thanks guys, you(dave) were one of the people i was really aiming this thread at, as someone who is good at both and objective from soo many angles
i couldn't agree more with your sentiments on jugglers being elitist tho... i think that is a reflection on the fact that juggling is the 'premier'(would say first, but diabolo...?) form of object manipulation, i.e. the one practised by more people than any other...
would you object if i could have a read of what you are compiling dave? it is a subject i have felt veryvery strongly about for a long time and so would be really interested in hearing your in-depth arguements on it...
cheers
R
thanks guys, you(dave) were one of the people i was really aiming this thread at, as someone who is good at both and objective from soo many angles
i couldn't agree more with your sentiments on jugglers being elitist tho... i think that is a reflection on the fact that juggling is the 'premier'(would say first, but diabolo...?) form of object manipulation, i.e. the one practised by more people than any other...
would you object if i could have a read of what you are compiling dave? it is a subject i have felt veryvery strongly about for a long time and so would be really interested in hearing your in-depth arguements on it...
cheers
R
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
GOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
Posted:
I have little to say on this issue as i think both are completely seperate arts that have difficulties/easiness throughout each. The only problem that really exists seems to be various peoples over inflated ego's about which is better and thus tends to be the art they do. The folk who do both seem to be very neutral (ie OWD)
But....I have a question
There are a lot of throwing moves in poi, infact I read PoiPoiPoi say that he was beginning to experiment spinning poi without spinning at all, and only using knocks and throws in a performance. And from looking at the videos onhis website he throws very fluidly and his transitions are par none.....so (question in here somewhere!) would this count as juggling?? And if you're combining a lot of throws and knocks throughout a poi performance would it be more acceptable to the juggling crowd who don't like poi??
I have little to say on this issue as i think both are completely seperate arts that have difficulties/easiness throughout each. The only problem that really exists seems to be various peoples over inflated ego's about which is better and thus tends to be the art they do. The folk who do both seem to be very neutral (ie OWD)
But....I have a question
There are a lot of throwing moves in poi, infact I read PoiPoiPoi say that he was beginning to experiment spinning poi without spinning at all, and only using knocks and throws in a performance. And from looking at the videos onhis website he throws very fluidly and his transitions are par none.....so (question in here somewhere!) would this count as juggling?? And if you're combining a lot of throws and knocks throughout a poi performance would it be more acceptable to the juggling crowd who don't like poi??
Let's relight this forum 
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
My general view is this:
I try to be courteous when I'm practicing around others. Other than that, I could give a rat's posterior what anyone thinks about me spinning poi. And if a juggler wants to be a snooty brat about it, then that's his problem.
And not mine.
Sorry, I guess I'm sort of a party-pooper when it comes to these sorts of debates because I'm very much a pragmatist.
My general view is this:
I try to be courteous when I'm practicing around others. Other than that, I could give a rat's posterior what anyone thinks about me spinning poi. And if a juggler wants to be a snooty brat about it, then that's his problem.
And not mine.
Sorry, I guess I'm sort of a party-pooper when it comes to these sorts of debates because I'm very much a pragmatist.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
geek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
i don't think its particularly throws that make something acceptable to a juggly crowd, although when i've been practising them, some jugglers do take a second look they wouldn't usually....
more just something different they are after: something innovative, not the usual stuff...
i've seen some poi routines get huuuge rounds of applause at juggling conventions, but its usually for one of two reasons: either there's a gimmick(the bouncing football guy, i don't know his name, but there'll be a couple of people on here who could tell you who it is...) or the routine is tightly choreographed and fairly technical...
R
i don't think its particularly throws that make something acceptable to a juggly crowd, although when i've been practising them, some jugglers do take a second look they wouldn't usually....
more just something different they are after: something innovative, not the usual stuff...
i've seen some poi routines get huuuge rounds of applause at juggling conventions, but its usually for one of two reasons: either there's a gimmick(the bouncing football guy, i don't know his name, but there'll be a couple of people on here who could tell you who it is...) or the routine is tightly choreographed and fairly technical...
R Holistic Spinner (I hope)
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
I've put it here: - (let me know what you think)
https://www.geocities.com/combatunicycle/poi_juggling.html
I'm wary these days of some of the stuff I write because it can come across as a bit 'ranty', especially with something like this which I've felt quite strongly about.
Also I wonder if in addressing the poi/juggling issue there's a danger of prolonging it?
(By juggling I'm refering to the whole range of skills that appear in juggling groups eg juggling, diablo, devil stick etc etc)
My impression of the situation years ago is that, whilst all the complaints from jugglers were going on, most poi spinnere were oblivious to it.
Now we're at a point where the jugglers have pretty much accepted poi as being not a fad, and of having value even within their strict terms of skill/performance criteria.
My main feeling is that I'd like the juggling community to reflect on their handling of new things like poi (also others such muni- 'off road unicycling', which they also dismissed and ridiculed), because I feel that it would be better for them to accept and skillfully integrate them from the start, rather than project hostility.
However, any attempt to do this is liable as being seen as a biased criticism of the juggling community.
I'd appreciate any feedback on the document, especially regarding whether it comes across as overly accusing or one-sided.
Quote:
thanks guys, you(dave) were one of the people i was really aiming this thread at, as someone who is good at both and objective from soo many angles
i couldn't agree more with your sentiments on jugglers being elitist tho... i think that is a reflection on the fact that juggling is the 'premier'(would say first, but diabolo...?) form of object manipulation, i.e. the one practised by more people than any other...
would you object if i could have a read of what you are compiling dave? it is a subject i have felt veryvery strongly about for a long time and so would be really interested in hearing your in-depth arguements on it...
cheers
R
I've put it here: - (let me know what you think)
https://www.geocities.com/combatunicycle/poi_juggling.html
I'm wary these days of some of the stuff I write because it can come across as a bit 'ranty', especially with something like this which I've felt quite strongly about.
Also I wonder if in addressing the poi/juggling issue there's a danger of prolonging it?
(By juggling I'm refering to the whole range of skills that appear in juggling groups eg juggling, diablo, devil stick etc etc)
My impression of the situation years ago is that, whilst all the complaints from jugglers were going on, most poi spinnere were oblivious to it.
Now we're at a point where the jugglers have pretty much accepted poi as being not a fad, and of having value even within their strict terms of skill/performance criteria.
My main feeling is that I'd like the juggling community to reflect on their handling of new things like poi (also others such muni- 'off road unicycling', which they also dismissed and ridiculed), because I feel that it would be better for them to accept and skillfully integrate them from the start, rather than project hostility.
However, any attempt to do this is liable as being seen as a biased criticism of the juggling community.
I'd appreciate any feedback on the document, especially regarding whether it comes across as overly accusing or one-sided.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
that is a really good essay dave
although it makes it a bit tricky to write an interesting reply to, cos it says it all really.
a juggler from Brixton was telling me about a workshop he went to where he started balancing a basketball on top of a broomstick on his nose, standing on a roller-bola and spinning simple poi stuff at the same time.
Someone went up to him and said
"I'm sorry, but we don't do poi here. Can you take those outside, please."
It's got to a stage where this is a cliche that is generally treated more as a joke, but the stereotype of the bad poi spinner does still linger a bit. Probably because there are lots of inconsiderate spinners about. i try to maintain a healthy paranoia about invading peoples space when at proper juggling workshops (such as the Brixton or Highgate workshops). As a result i do lots of double staff practice right next to walls. Which helps my planes no end
that is a really good essay dave
although it makes it a bit tricky to write an interesting reply to, cos it says it all really.
a juggler from Brixton was telling me about a workshop he went to where he started balancing a basketball on top of a broomstick on his nose, standing on a roller-bola and spinning simple poi stuff at the same time.
Someone went up to him and said
"I'm sorry, but we don't do poi here. Can you take those outside, please."
It's got to a stage where this is a cliche that is generally treated more as a joke, but the stereotype of the bad poi spinner does still linger a bit. Probably because there are lots of inconsiderate spinners about. i try to maintain a healthy paranoia about invading peoples space when at proper juggling workshops (such as the Brixton or Highgate workshops). As a result i do lots of double staff practice right next to walls. Which helps my planes no end
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
GOLD Member
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
youse guys are too considerate of others' opinions of twiralage.
IMHO if anyone don't see the beauty of poi, then it is not our loss
also learning twirlage is like training a parrot to talk:
easy to obtain, difficult to master!!
:dons a peg-leg:
youse guys are too considerate of others' opinions of twiralage.
IMHO if anyone don't see the beauty of poi, then it is not our loss
also learning twirlage is like training a parrot to talk:
easy to obtain, difficult to master!!
:dons a peg-leg:
Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always
BRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted:
IMHO,
I think jugglers hate poi because to the general public someone spinning basic poi is more impressive than someone juggling 5 balls, so they get a big chip on their shoulder about the percieved disparity of skill levels between say numbers juggling and poi.
Additionally I think that poi has been ridiculed in the past by jugglers as its too 'dancey' - ie, its skill level to space required ratio is too high. But now as we find people who can do all of their most crazy technical moves in teh same space required for a three ball juggler, its becoming more accepted.
I think this may be damaging poi as an art form, but to each their own.
hehe - one of my original reasons for wanting to learn 5 balls was to show juggle snobs that a twirler was capable of holding his own on a traditional skill too, but now that I can run five with not too much trouble, I find it bears its own rewards.
I think jugglers are just scared to dance, which sucks, cuz dance juggling is just *super*
Josh
EDITED_BY: Josh (1076904053)
IMHO,
I think jugglers hate poi because to the general public someone spinning basic poi is more impressive than someone juggling 5 balls, so they get a big chip on their shoulder about the percieved disparity of skill levels between say numbers juggling and poi.
Additionally I think that poi has been ridiculed in the past by jugglers as its too 'dancey' - ie, its skill level to space required ratio is too high. But now as we find people who can do all of their most crazy technical moves in teh same space required for a three ball juggler, its becoming more accepted.
I think this may be damaging poi as an art form, but to each their own.
hehe - one of my original reasons for wanting to learn 5 balls was to show juggle snobs that a twirler was capable of holding his own on a traditional skill too, but now that I can run five with not too much trouble, I find it bears its own rewards.
I think jugglers are just scared to dance, which sucks, cuz dance juggling is just *super*
Josh
EDITED_BY: Josh (1076904053)
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
And fabulous!
Quote:
I think jugglers are just scared to dance, which sucks, cuz dance juggling is just *super*
And fabulous!
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
I like James Ernest's views as expressed in his Contact Juggling book. From memory, he looks at the type and number of object/s being mainpulated. Like one object (pen) 2 (poi) 3 (balls) and so on. IMHO it takes a lot more practice to manipulate 3 or more.
I've been to the local "Juggle Jam" (melbourne) and they don't mind poi, that much, and many do diablo. Though, I've heard it said locally, that poi are for jugglers who can't let go. Dunno whoses having a tug there. I started with do poi and now I juggle.
Also there seems to be less resentment if you swing clubs (especially if u do a few throws). In some respects clubs seem to be the middle ground b/t swinging and juggling. Go clubs
I like James Ernest's views as expressed in his Contact Juggling book. From memory, he looks at the type and number of object/s being mainpulated. Like one object (pen) 2 (poi) 3 (balls) and so on. IMHO it takes a lot more practice to manipulate 3 or more.
I've been to the local "Juggle Jam" (melbourne) and they don't mind poi, that much, and many do diablo. Though, I've heard it said locally, that poi are for jugglers who can't let go. Dunno whoses having a tug there. I started with do poi and now I juggle.
Also there seems to be less resentment if you swing clubs (especially if u do a few throws). In some respects clubs seem to be the middle ground b/t swinging and juggling. Go clubs
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
BRONZE Member
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
Posted:
When I contact juggle I use way more space than with poi as I seem to spend the whole time flinging the ball across the room.
Is that not what you're supposed to do then?
When I contact juggle I use way more space than with poi as I seem to spend the whole time flinging the ball across the room.
Is that not what you're supposed to do then?
There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.
geek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
a good point Eera that seems to argue against the 1,2,3...object statement....no?
after all breakdancing(or even just 'dancing') has NO object to be manipulated, and that to me is waaaaaaaay harder than ANY stuff that i do.
as for the clubswinging... while on the whole i have found that to be true, (that clubs are a 'way in') espescially as i swung clubs weeeell before i started poi, funnily nough the worst reaction i have ever had is from a club swinger who thinks poi are what you spin if you can't do clubs well enough....*shrug* but i've learnt to ignore this tiny minority(hes not the only one, but nearly)....
Dave thats an awesome article.
and comes to pretty much the same conclusion as me: that the major problem is a space issue(in terms of: taking up too much, 'our' space, etcetc.)
and has some damn fine suggestions too that both spinners and jugglers would do well to heed.
i don't feel it adds to the problem by talking about it... as you so eloquently wrote one of the problems has been with a lack of understanding of each others viewpoints. and surely the point of this board and this topic is to bring about a better understanding between disparate groups?
i quite like the london approach to this one.
'spinning' nights on tuesdays and fridays
'juggling' nights on wednesdays and thrusdays
and people from one are quite welcome to go to the other, as long as the 'main' focus is not infringed upon.
one of the bestest things that is bringing the two communities closer are people like yourself dave, drew, cole, adam(both) and others who are quality jugglers who are also very fine spinners; bringing the followig questin to the juggling community hive-mind: 'if its so easy and uninteresting, then why are they doing it...? hmmm. maybe there is something to this poi-thing after all....'
big up all the ambassadors on both sides, and long may the two live in harmony
R
a good point Eera that seems to argue against the 1,2,3...object statement....no?
after all breakdancing(or even just 'dancing') has NO object to be manipulated, and that to me is waaaaaaaay harder than ANY stuff that i do.
as for the clubswinging... while on the whole i have found that to be true, (that clubs are a 'way in') espescially as i swung clubs weeeell before i started poi, funnily nough the worst reaction i have ever had is from a club swinger who thinks poi are what you spin if you can't do clubs well enough....*shrug* but i've learnt to ignore this tiny minority(hes not the only one, but nearly)....
Dave thats an awesome article.
and comes to pretty much the same conclusion as me: that the major problem is a space issue(in terms of: taking up too much, 'our' space, etcetc.)
and has some damn fine suggestions too that both spinners and jugglers would do well to heed.
i don't feel it adds to the problem by talking about it... as you so eloquently wrote one of the problems has been with a lack of understanding of each others viewpoints. and surely the point of this board and this topic is to bring about a better understanding between disparate groups?
i quite like the london approach to this one.
'spinning' nights on tuesdays and fridays
'juggling' nights on wednesdays and thrusdays
and people from one are quite welcome to go to the other, as long as the 'main' focus is not infringed upon.
one of the bestest things that is bringing the two communities closer are people like yourself dave, drew, cole, adam(both) and others who are quality jugglers who are also very fine spinners; bringing the followig questin to the juggling community hive-mind: 'if its so easy and uninteresting, then why are they doing it...? hmmm. maybe there is something to this poi-thing after all....'
big up all the ambassadors on both sides, and long may the two live in harmony
R
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Cheers for that
What you say about the London approach is interesting, separate nights but with a good attitude to mixing sounds good.
I do think that there's scope for a degree of separation with the two arts, partly because they are so different; although they're both forms of object manipulation, so are many other things like pure dancing (where the body is the object), football and motor racing- all of which would raise eyebrows in done in a juggling club.
To give a sensible example, the only time I've ever felt quite strongly that a form of object manipulation should be barred from a club is when people started bringing a football down.
As I'm sure you know a lot of pure object manipulation can be done with a football, however, it's also quite an invasive object when it goes astray. Worse than that though is the effect it has on some men, who inevitably ended up getting into some 'team' object manipulation i.e. a kickaround- resulting in genuine intimidation and, eventually, a broken light.
I feel there's scope for spinners now to get hold of indoor space of their own- many community centers in 'deprived' areas will give you a slot in their hall for free, on the understanding that you encourage local participation.
One real advantage of spinning compared to juggling is that it requires no high ceiling; whereas juggling clubs can have a hard time finding a new space because of this requirement, it's not that important for spinners so they have more options.
I'm currently working on such a spinning space and trying to set it up in such a way that it avoids some of the exclusion issues that have been an (albeit unintentional) part of the juggling scene.
Quote:
Dave thats an awesome article.
and comes to pretty much the same conclusion as me: that the major problem is a space issue(in terms of: taking up too much, 'our' space, etcetc.)
Cheers for that
What you say about the London approach is interesting, separate nights but with a good attitude to mixing sounds good.
I do think that there's scope for a degree of separation with the two arts, partly because they are so different; although they're both forms of object manipulation, so are many other things like pure dancing (where the body is the object), football and motor racing- all of which would raise eyebrows in done in a juggling club.
To give a sensible example, the only time I've ever felt quite strongly that a form of object manipulation should be barred from a club is when people started bringing a football down.
As I'm sure you know a lot of pure object manipulation can be done with a football, however, it's also quite an invasive object when it goes astray. Worse than that though is the effect it has on some men, who inevitably ended up getting into some 'team' object manipulation i.e. a kickaround- resulting in genuine intimidation and, eventually, a broken light.
I feel there's scope for spinners now to get hold of indoor space of their own- many community centers in 'deprived' areas will give you a slot in their hall for free, on the understanding that you encourage local participation.
One real advantage of spinning compared to juggling is that it requires no high ceiling; whereas juggling clubs can have a hard time finding a new space because of this requirement, it's not that important for spinners so they have more options.
I'm currently working on such a spinning space and trying to set it up in such a way that it avoids some of the exclusion issues that have been an (albeit unintentional) part of the juggling scene.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
ambiguous
646 posts
Location: Mpls, MN, USA
646 posts
Location: Mpls, MN, USA
Posted:
I've started to play around with juggling and I take up alot of room. I'm still in the walking/juggling phases, I occupy a 10 foot corridor of space whenever I juggle, unless I stand facing a wall
I've started to play around with juggling and I take up alot of room. I'm still in the walking/juggling phases, I occupy a 10 foot corridor of space whenever I juggle, unless I stand facing a wall
_________________________________
Fuzzy Dice.......................................
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
4,172 posts
Location: Hastings, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
4,172 posts
Location: Hastings, United Kingdom
Posted:
hehe. ive just learnt to juggle, and right now i take up all of the kitchen, which is more room than i need for poi!
This thread is just about how much space we take up during our chosen talent/skill right? in my opinion thats just pathetic. you don't go up to a person in the street and say that their using up too much of the sidewalk do you?
Quote:
I've started to play around with juggling and I take up alot of room. I'm still in the walking/juggling phases, I occupy a 10 foot corridor of space whenever I juggle, unless I stand facing a wall
hehe. ive just learnt to juggle, and right now i take up all of the kitchen, which is more room than i need for poi!
This thread is just about how much space we take up during our chosen talent/skill right? in my opinion thats just pathetic. you don't go up to a person in the street and say that their using up too much of the sidewalk do you?
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
i find a bit of psychologhy normally works.
Start of being crazy and wild and take up about 3 times as much space as you need, then when someone complains say you're sorry and you'll try to contain yourself, slowy reduce the amount of space you take up until you're a sane(?) and normal-amount-of-space-using person and they will thinky you're wonderful!
i find a bit of psychologhy normally works.
Start of being crazy and wild and take up about 3 times as much space as you need, then when someone complains say you're sorry and you'll try to contain yourself, slowy reduce the amount of space you take up until you're a sane(?) and normal-amount-of-space-using person and they will thinky you're wonderful!
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
aimee, its not quite as simple as that.
dave's article explains it better than i ever could but the main point is that these spaces were set up as juggling clubs - places where people could specifically go and practice juggling.
if another discipline starts to monopolise that space you can see where people might get huffy.
imagine starting up a space for people to practice netball skills and gradually more and more people turn up to use the space for football skills.
when it gets to the point that there is no room left to play netball you can see the problem.
great article dave - i would have replied before but you and roberto said it all
aimee, its not quite as simple as that.
dave's article explains it better than i ever could but the main point is that these spaces were set up as juggling clubs - places where people could specifically go and practice juggling.
if another discipline starts to monopolise that space you can see where people might get huffy.
imagine starting up a space for people to practice netball skills and gradually more and more people turn up to use the space for football skills.
when it gets to the point that there is no room left to play netball you can see the problem.
great article dave - i would have replied before but you and roberto said it all
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Back again. Nice article Dave.
For a start, most of the spinners I know juggle. Juggling is growing in Australia and the up-and-comers are multi skilled (juggleing/poi/devilstick/acro etc.). At our regular Wednesday fire meets we get lots of jugglers; with glow (led) balls and passing torches being popular. Perhaps in the future there will be more tolerance. I don’t know about this elitist thing, but I have heard it said that you are nor a REAL juggler unless you can do 5 or more.
On the skill level thing, I just don’t accept that poi/clubs is a relatively unskilful activity that is easy to learn. Remembering that clubs was, and still is an Olympic gymnastic sport (swinging clubs is similar to poi in many respects as far as moves go).
I’m getting out of my depth a bit here, but IMHO some jugglers could learn a lot from poi/clubs in regard to body flexibility, body coordination and planes. If they did a bit of poi then there juggling could improve, especially for endurance juggling where you need very good body mechanics. For example, I swap poi tricks for juggling tricks with a mate. Now, he is a good juggler and has fantastic hands, but since he has learned a few poi moves his juggling has improved.
I thought that as well as the space consideration, that being distracted by poi might interrupt the concentration of some jugglers.
I say look to the future
Back again. Nice article Dave.
For a start, most of the spinners I know juggle. Juggling is growing in Australia and the up-and-comers are multi skilled (juggleing/poi/devilstick/acro etc.). At our regular Wednesday fire meets we get lots of jugglers; with glow (led) balls and passing torches being popular. Perhaps in the future there will be more tolerance. I don’t know about this elitist thing, but I have heard it said that you are nor a REAL juggler unless you can do 5 or more.
On the skill level thing, I just don’t accept that poi/clubs is a relatively unskilful activity that is easy to learn. Remembering that clubs was, and still is an Olympic gymnastic sport (swinging clubs is similar to poi in many respects as far as moves go).
I’m getting out of my depth a bit here, but IMHO some jugglers could learn a lot from poi/clubs in regard to body flexibility, body coordination and planes. If they did a bit of poi then there juggling could improve, especially for endurance juggling where you need very good body mechanics. For example, I swap poi tricks for juggling tricks with a mate. Now, he is a good juggler and has fantastic hands, but since he has learned a few poi moves his juggling has improved.
I thought that as well as the space consideration, that being distracted by poi might interrupt the concentration of some jugglers.
I say look to the future
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
BRONZE Member
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
Posted:
I'd like to say it's intentional but the truth is I'm just a bit crap.
Quote:
a good point Eera that seems to argue against the 1,2,3...object statement....no?
I'd like to say it's intentional but the truth is I'm just a bit crap.
There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.
SILVER Member
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
These days I do most of my spinning with jugglers. I was introduced to the concept by an ex. The relationship ended, the interest in juggling didn't.
There is only one problem, I am terrible at juggling. So I go along and take my poi and my staff, and I take the opportunity to do some practice. I never seem to do that amount of practice when I go along to fire gatherings. And I pick up some very different influences in my spinning.
At first people were a little freaked out. The guy who organises the club mentioned, only jokingly, that he had been trying to keep spinners out for years cos they take over. Most of the jugglers were very uninterested in what I was doing.
Slowly it is changing. Some of the guys are already into club swinging, and so they seem to realise that it is a natural progression to do poi as well. Others are starting to do staff.
Slowly, slowly.
These days I do most of my spinning with jugglers. I was introduced to the concept by an ex. The relationship ended, the interest in juggling didn't.
There is only one problem, I am terrible at juggling. So I go along and take my poi and my staff, and I take the opportunity to do some practice. I never seem to do that amount of practice when I go along to fire gatherings. And I pick up some very different influences in my spinning.
At first people were a little freaked out. The guy who organises the club mentioned, only jokingly, that he had been trying to keep spinners out for years cos they take over. Most of the jugglers were very uninterested in what I was doing.
Slowly it is changing. Some of the guys are already into club swinging, and so they seem to realise that it is a natural progression to do poi as well. Others are starting to do staff.
Slowly, slowly.
It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.
What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
heeheehee. this thread is weird. people are weird. get ready for some 'tude.
okay i can see somebody getting mad at another person taking up all the practice space.
but i really don't see how poi has a lower entry level or even that juggling is anywhere near harder than poi. sounds elitist to me.
sorry but juggling isn't that hard. i can teach somebody to juggle in about 5 minutes. and by those same rights poi isn't hard. but, spinning poi really well takes quite a few years, at least 5 of solid few days a week training if you don't have previous training in another dance/movement art. a person who's been juggling for 5 years with the same amount of training ought to be incredible and able to juggle quite a few balls and do all kinds of stuff.
my point is mainly that poi involves the whole body, and dancing, which really takes a daily devotion to your art. anybody that doesn't agree isn't a dancer. i've seen some pretty out of shape bada$$ jugglers, but not so often with poi.
but really saying one is harder than the other is pretty stupid and is really just an insecurity based viewpoint. practice is practice is practice. why does one person want to feel superior at all? you know, it's like apples and oranges. they're both round and you eat them with your hands. whoopee.
heeheehee. this thread is weird. people are weird. get ready for some 'tude.
okay i can see somebody getting mad at another person taking up all the practice space.
but i really don't see how poi has a lower entry level or even that juggling is anywhere near harder than poi. sounds elitist to me.
sorry but juggling isn't that hard. i can teach somebody to juggle in about 5 minutes. and by those same rights poi isn't hard. but, spinning poi really well takes quite a few years, at least 5 of solid few days a week training if you don't have previous training in another dance/movement art. a person who's been juggling for 5 years with the same amount of training ought to be incredible and able to juggle quite a few balls and do all kinds of stuff.
my point is mainly that poi involves the whole body, and dancing, which really takes a daily devotion to your art. anybody that doesn't agree isn't a dancer. i've seen some pretty out of shape bada$$ jugglers, but not so often with poi.
but really saying one is harder than the other is pretty stupid and is really just an insecurity based viewpoint. practice is practice is practice. why does one person want to feel superior at all? you know, it's like apples and oranges. they're both round and you eat them with your hands. whoopee.
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
This is a side issue really.
I don’t think you can argue against the i23 object statement if you compare hippos with hippos. Like, it’s not whether contact is harder that tossing. IMHO, its more like manipulating three contact balls/staffs is obviously more difficult than manipulating one contact ball/staff.
This is a side issue really.
Quote:
a good point Eera that seems to argue against the 1,2,3...object statement....no?
I don’t think you can argue against the i23 object statement if you compare hippos with hippos. Like, it’s not whether contact is harder that tossing. IMHO, its more like manipulating three contact balls/staffs is obviously more difficult than manipulating one contact ball/staff.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
old hand
1,024 posts
Location: london
1,024 posts
Location: london
Posted:
it seems in human nature to want to divide up, ie skaters divide into skateboarders and inliners and bitch, football fans divide and bitch, manipulators divide and bitch, jugglers divide and bitch (contact etc). It all seems silly take away the juggling balls and the poi and everyone gets along fine.
But i realy hate eliteists, and the thing about elitests is they tend not to be that elite.
cant we all be happy
poi takes up too much space, so mabie we should find a bigger space
and jugglers hate being disrupted, ive had many a rogue aerotech hit me and that puts me off poi too.
And any more bickering children and i will take all your toys away
it seems in human nature to want to divide up, ie skaters divide into skateboarders and inliners and bitch, football fans divide and bitch, manipulators divide and bitch, jugglers divide and bitch (contact etc). It all seems silly take away the juggling balls and the poi and everyone gets along fine.
But i realy hate eliteists, and the thing about elitests is they tend not to be that elite.
cant we all be happy
poi takes up too much space, so mabie we should find a bigger space
and jugglers hate being disrupted, ive had many a rogue aerotech hit me and that puts me off poi too.
And any more bickering children and i will take all your toys away
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
i think this is a pretty fair statement, but my take is that sthey're pretty different disciplines - it's like you said - out of shape people can juggle, but it's harder for poi.
personally, i find poi a very natural movement but can't juggle for $hit. In me experience of teaching poi (although this doesn't apply to everyone obviously) people are mostly either good at juggling or poi, maybe the odd person is good at both, but they're different disciplines.
ok, if you can do both and you're amazing - don't hit me!
Quote:
but i really don't see how poi has a lower entry level or even that juggling is anywhere near harder than poi. sounds elitist to me.
sorry but juggling isn't that hard. i can teach somebody to juggle in about 5 minutes.
i think this is a pretty fair statement, but my take is that sthey're pretty different disciplines - it's like you said - out of shape people can juggle, but it's harder for poi.
personally, i find poi a very natural movement but can't juggle for $hit. In me experience of teaching poi (although this doesn't apply to everyone obviously) people are mostly either good at juggling or poi, maybe the odd person is good at both, but they're different disciplines.
ok, if you can do both and you're amazing - don't hit me!
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
SILVER Member
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
Posted:
it took me about two months to learn to juggle three balls, three months later thats still all i can do. (admitadly i dont practise that much, usually about 5- 10 minutes every other day), and its still pretty shakey, its not that i dont understand it its just my hand eye co ordination is arse, something that i think dosnt matter too much with poi (i can spin quite happily if i close my eyes).
so i dont think you could have taught me to juggle in 5 minutes. maybe you could though?
so to me, i disagree that juggling is easy.
poi is deffienetly easy to impress people with though.... a non spinny, juggely person will be impressed by a weave, everyones seen someone juggle three balls before, and its not that impressive.
i think this could be what jugglers maybe dont like about spinners. but as i dont know any jugglers, im probably wrong.
as for the space thing, my philosphy is that if im stopping someone doing what theyd normally do, ie theyd have to walk around me, im spinning in the wrong place. i dont think that when you are spinning its good to impose yourself on other peoples space.
Quote:
sorry but juggling isn't that hard. i can teach somebody to juggle in about 5 minutes.
it took me about two months to learn to juggle three balls, three months later thats still all i can do. (admitadly i dont practise that much, usually about 5- 10 minutes every other day), and its still pretty shakey, its not that i dont understand it its just my hand eye co ordination is arse, something that i think dosnt matter too much with poi (i can spin quite happily if i close my eyes).
so i dont think you could have taught me to juggle in 5 minutes. maybe you could though?
so to me, i disagree that juggling is easy.
poi is deffienetly easy to impress people with though.... a non spinny, juggely person will be impressed by a weave, everyones seen someone juggle three balls before, and its not that impressive.
i think this could be what jugglers maybe dont like about spinners. but as i dont know any jugglers, im probably wrong.
as for the space thing, my philosphy is that if im stopping someone doing what theyd normally do, ie theyd have to walk around me, im spinning in the wrong place. i dont think that when you are spinning its good to impose yourself on other peoples space.
Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no
geek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
arashi i think we'd pretty much established very few people(even only-jugglers) now think that it is easier to poi than to juggle....
this is more of an issue tho.
also most great jugglers i know(usually those with a good few years more than me, which is now 5 years...) dance their asses off... and its gorgeous fortunately i'm a siteswap nerd too, and love to see the hardhardhard tricks too done to boredom for everyone else
point taken stone.
but then in your original post you said
hence my reply about eeras post.
side note on the whole thing in a new thread
smiles
R
arashi i think we'd pretty much established very few people(even only-jugglers) now think that it is easier to poi than to juggle....
Quote:
poi is deffienetly easy to impress people with though.... a non spinny, juggely person will be impressed by a weave, everyones seen someone juggle three balls before, and its not that impressive.
i think this could be what jugglers maybe dont like about spinners. but as i dont know any jugglers, im probably wrong
this is more of an issue tho.
also most great jugglers i know(usually those with a good few years more than me, which is now 5 years...) dance their asses off... and its gorgeous
fortunately i'm a siteswap nerd too, and love to see the hardhardhard tricks too done to boredom for everyone else point taken stone.
but then in your original post you said
Quote:
From memory, he looks at the type and number of object/s being mainpulated. Like one object (pen) 2 (poi) 3 (balls) and so on. IMHO it takes a lot more practice to manipulate 3 or more.
hence my reply about eeras post.
side note on the whole thing in a new thread
smiles
R
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
In my experience, the vast majority of people can't be taught to juggle in five minutes. Most need about three weeks to get a reasonably decent 3 ball cascade going.
As I tried to say in the article, how difficult something is to learn isn't of that much importance, but, if there's going to be meaningful discussion I think it's important to be realistic and factual. Amongst people who teach poi and juggling I don't think many would go along with the view that juggling can be picked up in five minutes.
As a different perspective on the 'difficulty' issue, there's a sense in which the easier something is to learn, the harder it is to make something of it.
For example, diablo can be learnt faster than most other props, but that means that to perform with it, or to achieve a personal skill goal, is that much harder.
To me the relative difficulty of props is fairly irrelevant to the value of them, but can be a factor when accessiblity is an issue.
For example, a juggling workshop for young people can be problematic because very few of them will achieve anything like a three ball juggle in one session; whereas most will succeed at diablo or some basic poi stuff in that time.
Lastly, I have to disagree with a point that has been made a couple of times i.e. that poi dancing requires better physical conditioning than juggling.
For the past year it's been highly unusual for me to break sweat when spinning, I've made a point of developing a relaxed, and generally slow, style, with the emphasis on stretching and no muscular tension.
Maybe I'm very much in the minority- I'm aware of the energy that can be expended- some recent practices with the local Samba drum band have been of that kind, and matching their beat was a pretty intense experience.
So I'm not saying this just to disagree, simply pointing out that the generalisation that poi requires more condition than juggling is not always true; for me a good slow spin is a nice relaxing contrast to juggling.
Quote:
but i really don't see how poi has a lower entry level or even that juggling is anywhere near harder than poi. sounds elitist to me.
sorry but juggling isn't that hard. i can teach somebody to juggle in about 5 minutes.....
In my experience, the vast majority of people can't be taught to juggle in five minutes. Most need about three weeks to get a reasonably decent 3 ball cascade going.
As I tried to say in the article, how difficult something is to learn isn't of that much importance, but, if there's going to be meaningful discussion I think it's important to be realistic and factual. Amongst people who teach poi and juggling I don't think many would go along with the view that juggling can be picked up in five minutes.
As a different perspective on the 'difficulty' issue, there's a sense in which the easier something is to learn, the harder it is to make something of it.
For example, diablo can be learnt faster than most other props, but that means that to perform with it, or to achieve a personal skill goal, is that much harder.
To me the relative difficulty of props is fairly irrelevant to the value of them, but can be a factor when accessiblity is an issue.
For example, a juggling workshop for young people can be problematic because very few of them will achieve anything like a three ball juggle in one session; whereas most will succeed at diablo or some basic poi stuff in that time.
Lastly, I have to disagree with a point that has been made a couple of times i.e. that poi dancing requires better physical conditioning than juggling.
For the past year it's been highly unusual for me to break sweat when spinning, I've made a point of developing a relaxed, and generally slow, style, with the emphasis on stretching and no muscular tension.
Maybe I'm very much in the minority- I'm aware of the energy that can be expended- some recent practices with the local Samba drum band have been of that kind, and matching their beat was a pretty intense experience.
So I'm not saying this just to disagree, simply pointing out that the generalisation that poi requires more condition than juggling is not always true; for me a good slow spin is a nice relaxing contrast to juggling.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
well i have to say my eyebrows are raised. almost like this but not quite popping out. plus my mouth isn't a little square.
way back in my yooot i used to teach people at renfairs how to juggle three balls and i rarely met anybody that with a few minutes time couldn't do the basic juggle a few times, and most could keep it going for quite a bit. dropping was of course a natural part of it but then so is tangling your chains. and keep in mind i RRRREALLY don't "do" juggling. [thinly veiled understatement of the year] mayhaps you guys need to work on your teaching methodology!
well i have to say my eyebrows are raised. almost like this
but not quite popping out. plus my mouth isn't a little square.way back in my yooot i used to teach people at renfairs how to juggle three balls and i rarely met anybody that with a few minutes time couldn't do the basic juggle a few times, and most could keep it going for quite a bit. dropping was of course a natural part of it but then so is tangling your chains. and keep in mind i RRRREALLY don't "do" juggling. [thinly veiled understatement of the year
] mayhaps you guys need to work on your teaching methodology! -Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
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