Forums > Social Discussion > No anti-war posts yet?!?

Posted: 20th Mar 2003
::wonders wherer this will lead...::

chill out guys...I think Vanize knows of the other threads but meant like a more "up to date thread"
in his own personal way though (IRL, he is an adorable person I promise;) )

::hands wessex girl a cup of earl grey tea::

exiting that thread before it becomes all heated again... hope that you guys keep it lukewarm and intelligent, as always

Much love, respect and sadness at the current situation...
shine on
Cassandra

"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

Posted: 20th Mar 2003
None on today's active topics that I can find.

I know there have been plenty against the impending war, but I was trying to be funny and say that no ones said anything about it since it actually started, and apparently failing miserably.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Posted: 20th Mar 2003
Well I think enough has certainly been posted here but above and beyond that, I will be walking out of work for 10 minutes silence at 12. Then 6 pm meeting in the city centre and a protest march at 2pm on saterday.

I found it interesting watching the English news last night that the church was saying there was no more point in protesting anymore because the decisions have been made and the idea of protesting is to influence the decisions made by the government. I disagree because now is when governments are going to be under the most pressure.

I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

Posted: 20th Mar 2003
That's more like it!
Go DeepSoulSheep!


Sorry guys if I'm being too much of a smartass. I'm the only American in this South African town and am developing a very strange attitude about all this since it is all anyone here ever talks to me about.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Posted: 20th Mar 2003
I was thinking of walking out of work, but I work for a small company, so it would only harm my company and my position instead of making a point.

I'm the only one in the office at the moment.. so theres not much I can do except sit here and shake my head.. However I will be in my town center at about 6.20 as i don't / can't finish work till 6..

Then tonight I'll be going to Guildford to go and spin some poi..

The whole thing sux - I was sitting at home last night watching the news.. I got so depressed I curled up into a little ball on my sofa and hugged a pillow..

I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

Posted: 20th Mar 2003
All I can say is

My country's government is populated by narcissistic morons.

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Posted: 20th Mar 2003
in a way what's done is done, but it doesn't make it any easier to stomach..I just offer love and hope for the innocent people caught in the middle of an ugly dispute, and unfortunately, it's only going to get uglier..Sad day...

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

Posted: 20th Mar 2003
sweetie, never said it was heated, was just hoping taht this thread would nto developp into a heated one... this is why I usually stay out of political threads online , and even in real life I am cautious as to who I chat with. nothign personal at all, just did nto want this question to upset you cause I knew that Vanize was definitely not meaning it in a bad way...
wessex girl

anyway...

WIll now step back and reflect on everythign that is happening and try to find a meaning...

shine on, yes, PLEASE SHINE ON
cassandra

"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

Posted: 20th Mar 2003
I just hope it's over fast with minimal loss of life and that the promises being made are followed through especially regarding Israel. Does that mean I'm condoning regime change though? Should I rather hope things go badly.

I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

Posted: 20th Mar 2003
Hmmm,ya want a post? I’ve now got time to write a long post, and at such an intense time too! So, here’s a long, long, LONG! (but shortened to get point across quicker and not write a novel!) post based on my thoughts on the war, the peace movement, etc…

I think that the peace movement has gained a lot of power, but has also tended to become rather over zealous in its single minded approach to tackling the war we’re now all part of. And we’re all part of this war. Every one of us living today is responsible in part for all the actions of all our fellow humans as we collectively create the environment that causes everything to happen and allow events to happen by our idleness. Think about that, as it’s an incredibly powerfully concept that links every soul on this planet.

When I see the peace movement I see 2 things:

The first is an intensely powerful demonstration that many people do desire peace on a level that breaks through the heavy apathy of our culture and sounds out. As a base nature everyone desires peace and happiness, but we often compromise those desires either through a desperate need we imagine is more important, or simply forgetting! So the peace movement is a refreshing sign that there is a strong desire for peace out there. When people start thinking more about peace it affects their lives and those around them and slowly this spreads and multiples and manifests as good acts. The desire to impart peace is a powerful motivator factor that daily drives people to do great things. The more peace vibes in the world the better.

I also see a lot of simplistic thinking behind the people calling for peace now. Marching upon our leaders for peace is a great thing to do and we mustn’t ever stop. However it seems that a narrow mindedness has overwhelmed many antiwar supporters who can often come up with little more rhetoric than: “Bombs are bad! We mustn’t bomb Iraq because we’ll kill people.”

This is very true, but when you’re dealing with a war to overthrow a leader who would cause deaths either way the situation becomes more complex. Go to war and people die, don’t go to war and people die. How many deaths justify each action? What cost life in this Catch 22 situation. The antiwar movement has often failed to get across deeper arguments than ‘No War!’ But these points were expressed and the antiwar and peace movements served a far greater purpose than many people realize and this is where we see real political effect that makes it all worthwhile.


So has the peace movement been a failure, a complete waste of time? If you’re a leering war supporter, chuckling to yourself that all these peacenik hippies have been shown up as useless, then sorry, you’ve got it wrong. The movement has made a difference. If the desired goal was to have the ironically Christian proclaimed “peace on earth and good will to all men” overnight then the answer of course not. And if you’re trying to work out who ‘won’, then realize there are no winners here as life isn’t that simple. And, you shouldn’t be applying such childish notions to international politics and peoples lives.


Some ask what the antiwar movement stood for. Well, it certainly wasn’t the “pro-Saddam” propaganda machine some of its opponents claimed it to be. It that we wanted to leave Saddam alone to keep on being his evil old self. What the antiwar movement stood against was a hypocritical war waged by a fanatical leader who disregarded logic and international politics, threatening the delicate political structures that exist in our world. A war waged for all the wrong reasons. Whilst Israel and Palestine were ignored, and North Korea only talked about, Bush waged war with Iraq.

And the reasons: to bring democracy to Iraq – while at the same time supporting an undemocratic coup in South America; ignoring the persecution of Palestinians by a leader they have no choice over; doing trade deals with China; working with undemocratic countries to allow them to ‘free’ a country from a country that isn’t ‘free’. To bring aid to Iraq and help citizens suffering – even though Bush stated he expects cash-strapped aid agencies to supply this aid; forgetting that Iraq, under Saddam, once had a public health care and education system that put the US to shame; forgetting that it is the US which has vetoed these much needed supplies anyway. To reduce a threat from weapons of mass destruction – when even respected members of the UN Security Council, weapons inspectors and many other experts were not satisfied by the flimsy evidence provided.

The unspoken reasons outraged us all: oil, American imperialism and capitalism corrupting world politics. The US seemed blind to even the obvious considerations of respect for international institutions, fellow nations and world stability. All these things and more we stood up against and continue to resist.

There were alternate suggestions as to how to deal with the situation. Just because nobody in a group of antiwar supporters can’t mention them, don’t think there isn’t a solution. In fact the various solutions have been shouted from the rooftops on several occasions. Just maybe they weren’t as easy to absorb as “go to war!” or “no war!”. The answer “play the delicate and complex games of international politics” just ain’t as snappy!

The peace movement has played a vital role in making sure this war is an important and continuing issue, when it could have so easily been a virtual global non-issue like many other US regime changes that have, either directly or by proxy, more than once removed a democracy in favor of a ruthless dictatorship. Because of the pressure applied by the antiwar lobby this war and the events after it will be subject to intense scrutiny that will force even those like Bush and Blair, who claim they’re not affected by the antiwar protests, to ensure that their actions will stand up that scrutiny. Over the last few months the approach to this war and the rhetoric used has changed as antiwar pressure has been increased. There has been success.

When one million people march through London for peace it’s unlikely the PM will take immediate notice. However the people who do notice are those antiwar supporters in the government, media and other positions of power and influence. You directly may not make a change, but indirectly you support those who do. Do you think that the papers would be so intense in their analysis if we didn’t march? Do you think they’d be such a resignation of MPs without the public so loudly supporting the common cause? I think not, and these things make a difference, so the marches, the protests, have all made a difference. And they’ll keep making a difference and so we must keep on going.

The role of the antiwar movement now must be to keep Iraq an issue. Sprouting “No war in Iraq” is getting boring and is going to lose its power. For the last year this war has been inevitable, and anyone who didn’t think so even 6 months ago was blind. Now we have to cope with the fact that the bull has been unleashed in the china shop, and the role now is to keep up pressure to work for a brighter, more stable future for the region, and the world. The tension in the Middle East is rising and it’ll take careful maneuvering by our leaders to make it come out better. And it can all work out for the best, but I believe only if we keep up the pressure upon our governments, and remind them daily that we desire a world of peace and respect for each other and that we support those global institutions and laws that unify nations in the hope for a peaceful world.

So make your voice heard to help push our governments towards promoting peace at home and abroad.

And one of the most useful things you can do before going out protesting is donate to one of the charities that will be left to mop up the mess our governments create. UNICEF, Save the Children, Oxfam, etc… and you’ll be helping people across the globe experience a better life.

Posted: 20th Mar 2003

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dom:


Some ask what the antiwar movement stood for. Well, it certainly wasn’t the “pro-Saddam” propaganda machine some of its opponents claimed it to be. It that we wanted to leave Saddam alone to keep on being his evil old self. What the antiwar movement stood against was a hypocritical war waged by a fanatical leader who disregarded logic and international politics, threatening the delicate political structures that exist in our world. A war waged for all the wrong reasons. Whilst Israel and Palestine were ignored, and North Korea only talked about, Bush waged war with Iraq.

---

*stands and applauds*

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

Posted: 20th Mar 2003
... and Zimbabwe has been totally forgotten.. coz the crickets nearly over...

I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

Posted: 20th Mar 2003
Will read all this later.... but would like to point out that i myself posted about the wars begining, and even got into an arguement already *sheepish grin* that was yesterday, when it started.

NQAyhow, i must leave for Chicago, cya'll soon

More Peace & Love (for those who don't speak hebrew)
K.

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

Posted: 20th Mar 2003
Dom, that was awesome. I have been reading about the anti-war protestors and the interviews with them. I will link to a story of a really stupid one in a sec.
However, I wanted to thank you for that insight into a view that is not familiar to me.

Now, onto the humor.
Protester picks wrong spot to lock himself

quote:

---

Jody Mason of Olympia is locked to the Washington State Grange office building Tuesday to protest war. He intended to chain himself to a federal Department of Energy office building, but discovered he was at the wrong location.

---

This idiot not only used an old "Reduce Deficit" sign to protest, but went to the wrong building.
He chained himself to a non-profit organization setup to help rural families.
It's people like him that give peace activists a bad name.

FYI: I am not Pele. If you wish to reply to me and use a short version of my name, use: PWB.

English? Who needs that? I'm never going to England. - Homer Jay Simpson

Posted: 20th Mar 2003
And that is why we dont hit the green before we go protest.


I also will be stepping out for a moments silence.I do not know if there is an organized gathering here or not ,but rest assured if there is I am there,and if there isnt then I will have to go make my own.
thank you for reading my nonsense.
~Jonny~

PS:Although I highly doubt he reads this or has the time to this one is for saddam


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Posted: 20th Mar 2003
I think the time for protests has passed. Let's face it, we are at WAR. Diplomacy, negotiations, even potests, did not change that. The US government has a tendency to ignore it's own people. The majority of people didn't want this. But we ARE at war.

I don't like it. I don't agree with it. I will, however, support the troops that that are now in a life-threatening situation. I'm not going to waste my breath at this point. We've said our peace, we can only prepare for the worst, & hope for the best.

I can't help but feel a little frustrated. Guess I wish there was more I could do besides donate blood...

Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

Posted: 20th Mar 2003
Lightning, don't stand up too fast, they might think you're a terrorist!

Prometheus, I'd be interested to know if you read my post (I know, it's stupidly long!) and if so do you still think it as a total waste of time? And there will always be plenty you can do to help others.

Posted: 21st Mar 2003
Loud applause to Dom!

I don't think people should just lie down and let their voices be trampled on. I think as long as people still protest then there is a greater chance of peace.

This is not to say that I think the protests will work. For one, many of the protests in UK are teenagers bunking off school to enjoy the sunshine!!

I bunked off yesterday but when I rang in sick, I was asked 'this is cause of the situation in Iraq' which I denied vehemently. SO I stayed at home, chicken in case tv cameras caught me in all my glory. It would be just my luck!

Secondly, did anyone hear Tony Blair talking today about 'the weakness' of retreating.

It is a shame that our 'leaders' cannot realise that their is more strength and courage in walking away from conflict. Boys with their toys

So no, the governments will not listen to us and stop the war. Yet, please continue to express your anger at this war, and at all wars raging around the world.

It is only through the united desire of the people that there is a chance for peace. The world has a whole, even in the midst of this conflict have not been so united in this desire for many many years.

Let's hope we don't all fall back into our apathetic states. We all have a tendency to block out what does not affect us personally.

I won't be at Saturday's march as I have plans but even if you don't march you can still protest. Talk with those who think war is an answer or to those who have just been fed propeganda.

To quote Dalai Lama speaking about Kosovo but it can also be applied here ' One of the major features of violence is that it is very unpredictable, so once you commit it, it may create many complications or side-effects that were originally unforseen. This is how we get violence and counterviolence, endlessly, and a lot of suffering and pain. For this reason I think violence is better avoided'

Look to the examples in history recent and in our past - Northern Ireland, Kashmir, Palestine and Israel.

Call out for peace and help break the circle of violence

Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

Posted: 21st Mar 2003
One of the problems I see currently is that many anti-war protestors who claim to be a part of the peace movement are acting violently.

Does anyone else see the folly in this?
I've heard stories of them destroying a woman's car because it said "Proud wife of a US Airforce Officer."

I think those who continue to be heard should ensure we're fighting for the right reasons. Dom, thank you for making that point in your post. (I did read it and I liked it.)

FYI: I am not Pele. If you wish to reply to me and use a short version of my name, use: PWB.

English? Who needs that? I'm never going to England. - Homer Jay Simpson

Posted: 24th Mar 2003
I really don't know why people bother protesting for peace if they are going to get violent!

I was also mightily annoyed by the amount of rubbish that was left behind by the protestors.

We need to respect those with different opinions even if those opinions make us angry. I have friends who are pro-war. I may not agree with them, but I am not going to fall out with them over it.

Anyone see death count reported this morning?
70 Iraqi soldiers dead

85 Iraqi civilians dead

12 US dead in Combat
6 accidental
16 British dead accidentially.

Seems to me allieds are there own worst enemy.

My thoughts go out to the families of all who have died, no matter what side they are on.

Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

Posted: 24th Mar 2003
My 1 question for all the pro-war peoples: Why?

You. Its whats for dinner!

As time passes, you realise all the mistakes you amde and the ones you wish you never did make.

The wave crashing on the beach

Posted: 25th Mar 2003
Hi, Bram

If you do want to know, then why not read posts in a more "pro-war" thread. The pro and anti threads have naturally separated out, because the ones that didn't ended up getting too heated, so people stopped taking part. The ones that have remained are for the most part good humoured and intelligently written.

Try the Is Anyone Actually Pro-war? Thread for some reasons why people think this war may end up being for the greater good.

OK, I'm going now

[ 25. March 2003, 21:59: Message edited by: Simian ]

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

Posted: 4th Oct 2004
well alow me to voice my thoughts THIS WAR IS STUPID!!!

SLEEP WITH ANGELS muckieha