Forums > Other Toys > Club/torch swinging

Posted: 18th Dec 2004
The Spiral Fountain - Part One

The Snakesss: - From the Top

The Spiral Fountain is especially attractive and pleasing, as, from the front, it looks as though the clubs were continually spiraling from right to left and left to right” (Schatz, p 86).

The spiral fountain is a follow movement going to the right (or left). Therefore, the right club does outward movements, while the left club does inward movements. Just like a waist wrap.

Description - “Lower back fountain, come back again, and continue circles with the left, execute two spirals (edit, with the right); then fountain across to the left side; and as the left club (see Fig 24, P 39) comes to A, tumble it into a reverse spiral, execute two reverse spirals; with the right continue the circles in front and back of the left hip” (Schatz, p 86.)

Basically a behind the back waist wrap, with the right club doing two spirals on the right, and the left doing two spirals on the left. The non spiraling club doing hip circles.

Notes:

Fountain - Schatz calls a fountain that part of a movement where we cross and uncross the clubs. Like in a waist wrap going to the right, we lead with the right, do the fountain bit in the middle, go behind the left hip and then “carry” back to start, for another movement. More on waist wraps later

The position A – Difficult to explain. Catch the left club in snake grip, at top of the arc on the left side, and start spiraling.

Tumble the club – For the inward hip snake. The club simply falls downward, and at the same time the hand gives a slight jerk upwards and a little push outwards, so the force of these efforts will tumble the club into position (Schatz Fig 43; Jillings Lesson 15, Fig 15.2).

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 18th Dec 2004
The Spiral Fountain - Part Two



Swinging with the Snakes:



“The snakes are considered the most difficult club movements, and form the basis of much of the fancy work” (Schatz, p 56).



Introduction: I’m guilty of thinking “I can do that “ and assume that I can, when in reality, I need to go back and learn how to do it properly. So, I don’t mind admitting that it has taken me much longer than I expected to even start to get this stuff, and I don’t mind discussing the simple things, that seem sooo obvious.



In the end, I think we need to toss the books and vid’s, and figure out things for ourselves; so it works for us. I hope people find this useful.



The Snake: The snake grip is used for all snake movements (See Jillings). The trick to the shoulder snake, and all snakes, is that bit where we turn the wrist to keep the second circle in front.



In the last diagram of Jillings Lesson 14, Fig 14.2 (the first full circle) see how the hand is facing out, and club is still in front ready to start the second circle. All the other snakes are based on this technique, and it’s just a matter of learning the different variations, and getting around obstacles like the hips and stuff.



Common Snakesssss: There are many types of snake. These include the perpendicular snakes, rope snakes, counterfeit rope snakes, draw snakes, full bodied snakes, traveling snakes, sweeps and spirals.



All these snakes work on the principal outlined in the shoulder snake. One complete snake is comprised of two circles in front, and the ‘throw-off”. Snakes can be done inwards or outwards or both together, in vertical or horizontal planes. I think you can learn much from practicing the horizontal snake.



Traditionally, with shoulder snakes you try and keep your elbow at shoulder height throughout the movement. Most of the arm-work occurs from the elbow down, especially on the wrist. The key however, is in the arm and shoulder roll (later).



For good variations, use the first and second half of the snakes independently. Sweep the first half for into a large circle, then do a normal size shoulder snake for the second circle and so on.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 18th Dec 2004
The Spiral Fountain - Part Three



Hip Snakes and Spirals



I’ve had so much trouble getting the outward hip snake smooth and flowing. The first circle in front is fine, but that friggen second circle - all it wants to do is go up, up to the shoulders, and all I want it to do is go back, back around my hips in an orderly and symmetrically manner.



There are a few ways around this, though some are more elegant than others. Having a smooth outward hip snake is the secret to the spirals. The Snake Curl in Jillings Lesson 13 is really sweet, and a good move to learn first.



Outward Hip Snake: This is a three section move, and is similar, but not the same as Jilling’s Lesson 15.



1. Swing out and around for a circle behind the back, and as the club comes up behind, catch the club in snake grip. I try and get some pre-load by starting to roll up the shoulder here. I also lock the neck of the club hard against the bones that form the junction b/t my wrist and forearm (umm, wrist joint). Then when the club comes in front, I to push down from that lock position, while extening the wrist.



2. Bring the club around the hip, keeping it close to the hip and horizontal to the floor. I keep rolling up my shoulder all the way around the hip. I don't think this "close to the hip" bit is mentioned in Jillings, but interestingly enough Bec and Elke have the related “Spin with Straight Pass Behind the Back” in their Fire Twirling Book.



3. When the club arrives in front, start an outward circle. Note the grip in Jilling’s Lesson 15, Fig 15.2. Extend the wrist, and let the wrist move outwards and downward. Then relax the snake grip a little before six o’clock, and let the club describe a lower front circle arriving at 12 o’clock; thus leaving the club in the ring grip and ready for another movement - this is the throw-off. To start another hip snake, just let the club drop to the side; it goes around then hip and behind. You can feel each of the three independent sections of the move in the wrist.



Note: For outward movements, the club is taken close to the hip, coming from behind to in front. For inward movements, the club is taken close to the hip, coming from in front to behind.



Schatz says extend the wrist, and let the wrist move outwards and downward. But I’ve always found it difficult to get enough drive from the grip (Fig. 15.2) for continuous smooth hip snakes. They seem to come out lumpy.



So, I do a few things to increase power and smooth out the move, and I’d appreciate any other tips or advice on this one. I find the reverse hip spiral much easier because it works with gravity.



Rolling up the shoulder on the way around to the front helps. The tension in the arm can be released through the elbow, by pushing down from the elbow as well as extending the wrist. Like, when the wrist arrives around the front, I use the elbow as a pivot and drive down with the forearm. Experiment with this by exaggerating the movement, try pushing down with the elbow, from a higher position somewhere b/t shoulder and hip.



Locking the neck of the club hard against the bones that form the junction b/t my wrist and forearm behind the back helps. Because when I start extending the wrist in front, after the club has passed top dead centre (club end vertical/12:00 o'clock position) I use that joint to give a flick or push down. The grip is shown in Jilling’s Lesson 15, Fig 15.2.



Try the above wrist lock thing with the inward hip snake, which I find easier. Inward snakes are the reverse of outward snakes, as in rewind and fast forward. I think Schatz actually describes coming into that type of wrist lock position for the inward hip snake as “tumbling the club”, though there is no mention of it for the outward hip snake. So, while I probably knew about this bit, it took a long time to be able to execute it as part of the hip snake movement.



When I relax the snake grip a little before six o’clock, I take a firm grip on the club for the change to ring grip. Or to put it another way, I don’t just loosen the snake grip and let the club spin up into the ring grip.



I’ll probably add a few things as I remember them.



Cheers


EDITED_BY: Stone (1103589100)

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 18th Dec 2004
The Spiral Fountain - Part Four



Hip Snakes - Clubs in the Cradle



So ok, in the above hip snake we don’t hold the snake grip for the whole movement. Not that’s a problem, because from this basic hip snake there are lots of other variations to try.



If we do two circles in front at hip level we end up in the lower cradle position, then throw off to go behind, and start again (Jillings Fig 15.4). Now for some reason I’m not that fond of the the throw off from the “club in the cradle” technique. I find it clumsy, especially with staff.



Jillings’s describes an outward hip snake where the first circle in front is a horizontal circle. Room is made by pulling the hand slightly away from the hip, and the club ends up in the lower cradle position (Jillings Fig 15.4). This is a nice variation, and I found you can also use the technique of pulling the hand slightly away from the hip to get an extra vertical circle in front.



For the throw off from the low cradle position, we rotate our arm - with the wrist at the centre of the circle - rotating the club on the long axis. Then we are in a position (centre drawing Fig 15.5) to go behind for the next circle.



Staff - double circles in front: I know a lot of people use the low cradle position to get double circles in front with staff, and they can be made to look smooth and seamless, but it’s all lumpy custard if you ask me. Another way to get double circles in front, with both staff and clubs, is to use the technique of pulling the hand slightly away from the hip, but keep the staff on the inside of he wrist for the throw off. Now, the decree of difficulty increases with staff length, but it’s worth a try



Here do the first circle as described as normal, and if we continue the second circle we end up in the lower cradle. Now, if after finishing the first circle we continue, but pull the hand slightly away from the hip, and end up with the staff on then inside of the wrist (instead of the outside) we throw off by pushing the staff around the back.



In comparison with Jillings shoulder circle, instead of ending up with the first full circle, ready for the second circle in front Jillings Fig 14.2 we end up with the club in the first quarter position. But at hip level, the staff still in front of the hip, and we push the staff around the back. Not sure this is a great variation either. Perhaps the one and a half circles in front is the way to go. I suppose it depends on what you like and what works for you.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 19th Dec 2004
The Spiral Fountain - Part Five

Hip Spiral:

The hip spiral is basically a figure eight in snake grip.

Draw Spiral:

Perpendicular snakes:

Traveling snakes.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 19th Dec 2004
The Spiral Fountain - Part Six



Fountains, Waist Wraps and Windmills: going to the right.



The Windmill consist of long arm and shoulder circles. I learnt the windmill with poi, by speeding up “chasing the sun” and poi people would call this move “the giant windmill”. For details of the club swingers windmill see Jillings Fig 12.2.



The circles for the top part of the windmill are done behind the head. Schatz introduces this move as “the follow movement, or windmill” and he has the circles quarter circle apart. You will know when you have this one because you will hear the sound of a windmill - whoosh, whoosh, whoosh - even without fire.



The Fountain is the name for a combination of 2-beat moves that are linked by the cross and follow, with a pass back to the starting position. See Jillings Lesson 18. This move causes serious confusion, because there are many different ways to do it. I suggest learning each fountain separately, as an individual move. One reason for this is that the pass (sometimes erroneously called a carry ) is different for each type of fountain (see pass below).



The Lower Front Fountain is done at waist level, in-front. From parallel long arm circles to the right, take the right club behind the right hip, the left follows. With the right leading come in front, cross and uncross in front of belly button, the right leads into a circle behind the left hip, do the pass back (clubs parallel) and start another one or try the btb fountain.



The Lower Back Fountain is done at waist level, behind the back. Combine the lower front and back fountains by using the following hand. This can be made to look like you are doing continuous circles around the body.



The Upper Fountain is done shoulder (head) high, with the circles in front (not behind as in a windmill). Schatz’s diagrams of the upper fountain show three interlocking circles, of Spirograph precision.



Starting the upper fountain from the pass (see below). I start low, with my right wrist over my left wrist, and go into the shoulder circle (behind the shoulder now), push up from the shoulder circles into the upper front circle, and peak the fountain directly over the head. At the peak, I have my right and left elbow/wrist/club crossed making an X shape, directly overhead.



The Full Fountain is done by combining the lower and upper fountain. Combine them by including the over and under, and you virtually go into a three-beat weave for the full fountain.



The Overflowing Full Fountain combines all of the above, with variations (below).



The Pass not equal Carry:



Now them good ol' club swingers certainly knew their stuff. The arms are held more like this Ώ for the upper fountain pass. This facilitates getting into the first circle, as the wrists are cupped ready for the right arm over circle. The wrists kinda point up for lower back fountain, this pass really helps the btb stuff.



Transitions:

Schatz joins up the fountains, viz:

Upper to lower fountain. Do an extra circle with the right, in front of the left shoulder. Lower to upper fountain. Do an extra circle in front of hip with right.

Lower front to lower back, bring left arm over back.

Lower back to lower front, pass left arm over front instead of back.

To the right then to the left. Change direction (haven't tried that yet).



After that, you just keep adding stuff like tangles (tie-the knot, twisters), double tangles, under-over, and snakes etc etc for, as Schatz says "combinations of indefinite number" or something like that.



Variations:

Between the legs (Glasses water wheel or water works)

The full fountain with cherry on top. Add cherry by going from the circles in front to shoulder circles, and then reach up for that extra circle or cherry on top.



Note: Some people call the lower front fountain a waist wrap, especially when the lower front and back fountains are combined. I find that term confusing because the fountain, is a combination of moves that move b/t waist and shoulders, and are much more than a waist wrap; and you can’t have an upper waist wrap, because it would be a shoulder wrap.



Second Opinions:

Well for another rundown on the difference b/t fountains and waist wraps it would be difficult to go past Doc Coleman previous comments on the gandini fountain. Consulting physician, Mr Glass should also have an excellent thread on poi fountains somewhere.



“When it comes to the waistwraps, what we call front waistwraps, they refer to as lower fountains. They also do these high (above shoulders, replacing the waist with the head), still with the 1-2-3-carry counting (upper fountains).



A full fountain as they show it starts (all in wall plane) spinning forward 2bt cross-follow on the right hand side, behind your body and goes across the body in front to behind the left hip in reverse cf. then it goes up behind on the left hand side to behind the left shoulder, across the body in front of the face to behind the right shoulder, then down behind on the right from shoulder to hip (which is back to the start position). all of this is spun with your arms moving in a large circle around you.



according to an extremely reliable source, the counting on this section is very dubious. i am *very* bad with understanding counting systems as i have thus far paid them no attention, however the move itself is spun perfectly on the dvd.



for a waistwrap they show what we have been referring to on hop as a 'full waistwrap'. ie a back waistwrap, a simultaneous in front and behind carry into a front waistwrap, followed by the opposite carry's, back into the btb ww. probably my favourite move right now even though i do spin it sloppy as you like. now to work on the other 3 variations...”


EDITED_BY: Stone (1104977714)

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 21st Dec 2004
I suppose people may be wondering what’s happening with all the spiral stuff, and why I’ve been recycling moves, to a certain extent.

Well someone asked me about the spirals, and it all just happened. A few days off before Christmas can be dangerous. Anyhow, it got me thinking that there are many great movies buried in this thread, with contributions from Iain’s, Landd and Josh etcetc.

So, I think it would be good to organise some of this buried treasure, so the moves are more accessible. A couple of options come to mind:

We could start Part 2 of the club/torch swinging thread, and use the first post to link all the moves and resources; similar to this thread.

Maybe put some articles in the HOP vaults and link them. Re links, I have wondered if there are HOP administration problems with all the links we put in to other resources???

Carry on as usual, with an update in the first post to better reflect people’s contributions.

All suggestions welcome.

Happy Christmas

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 22nd Dec 2004
The Taipan or Fierce Snake (Oxyuranus microlepidotus). The world’s deadliest snake.



I think this fierce snake is almost Jedi, but you’ll need to discover the “secrets of the ring” to get it. It’s really more of a one and a half outward shoulder snake, with a modified throw-off, keeping the club in front.



Warm-up: I suppose the last thing I though about when I started shoulder snakes was the “throw-off”, but it’s really important for smooth continuous snakes. Anyhow, to warm up, try some outward long arm circles, catch in snake grip, do an outward shoulder snake, then throw-off back into long arm circles. Keep the arm straight. No problems.



The Taipan is really just a modified shoulder snake with one and a half turns, into a double twist dismount. Do first half outward shoulder snake as normal. Then, from the beginning of the second half snake (Jillings Lesson 14. Fig. 14.2. Dia. 1) slowly start to rotate from the elbow, turning the wrist outwards, using the index finger (or first two fingers) to push the ball into the palm of the hand. We need to rotate the club on the ball a bit, if we can, to get this smooth.



At this point, the under side of the wrist and the forearm should be facing up, the club above the forearm, with the base at 60 - 90 degrees.



Now tricky bit, we have to turn the wrist back the way we just came, by rotating the wrist around the ball, while rotating the club a bit on it’s own axis. Use the fat bit of the thumb, to guide the shaft back into the shake hands position. A little outwards flick helps lock the club in the grip. Do it fast with the flick, while rotating the club on it’s own axis and you will feel the club lock in- like a torpedo.



Ok so perhaps it’s not Jedi, and I haven’t figured how to incorporate it yet, but hey it was fun learning this one



I think you can actually get two circles in front if we use “black magic” to do another mini snake in the palm of the hand, thereby keeping the club in-front of the shoulder.



Secret of the Ring:



I have had so much trouble trying to get the grips to the feel right that at one time I stopped practicing clubs for months. It’s not like you can just go to the local tennis pro, and pay them fifty bucks to learn the eastern, continental and western grips.



Anyhow, I persevered (violin music). Then I met a lovely princess who had trained in the art of “calisthenics” while at the black tower. At the risk of “silencing” and a life of agony, she shared with me some of the ring magic. That, and more, I now pass on to you. Also see Jillings, she has some great tips on the grips, and how to use them



The Ring:



The principal of the Ring works by magic. Like, you know when you try on a ring at the market of something, and if you tense up your finger you will never get the rotten thing off, but if you relax the finger, the ring just slips-off like magic. Well the same thing also applies to the ring grip.





Take the shake-hand grip, and hold one arm out to the side a bit.

Then slowly rotate the wrist upwards, so the back of the wrist (palm side) faces up.

Keep turning wrist, and let club fall into the ring grip.

Give a flick, and feel the wrist lock in for the ring grip.

You’ll know when you get it.



Not convinced? Try this:

Hold one arm straight out to the side, horizontal to the ground.

Then slowly rotate the wrist upwards, letting the club shaft fall into the ring grip.

At the same time let the forearm rise towards the head, hinging at the elbow.

Stop when the forearm is 90 degrees to the elbow.

Now flick the club outwards, and you should feel it lock in, as it approaches horizontal again, shoulder high.



Schatz, had a similar move, going from forward hand circles, to outward shoulder circles.



I keep the grips loose, and even for the ring I use the palm of my hand as a pivot, and I let the shaft float a bit in the ring.



Ball and Socket:



With the ball and socket you use the palm as the socket, and the thumb and first two fingers as the socket.



Long arm circle, with rotating club:

You may have noticed that while doing long arm circles you can rotate the club on it’s own axis a bit, with the wrist. I’ve found this useful to maintain symmetry or move the swing in or out. You rotate the club one way for half a long arm circle, the rotate the other way for the rest of the circle. Which way? Have a go, but watch your head,



Behind the Back Grip:

This is similar the one I was talking about earlier for the btb waist wrap carry (Schatz, fig 25. p41). Let club hang loosely just in front of the hip, use the index finger to push the club up, twist the wrist in towards the back, and take the ball and socket grip.



Red Belly Black Snake:



Still in hibernation.



We do shoulder snakes above the shoulder.

In calisthenics, the folds are done underneath the shoulder.

It should be possible to combine the two for continuous snakes, above and below the shoulder. Have a go!



Throws:

I think I probably under whelmed everyone with that flourish change of direction. Anyhow, I can juggle clubs a bit, but my biggest hurdle has been trying to incorporate throws into a swinging routine. Then I found a missing bit in Jillings; and then it’s why didn’t I think of that sooner;) This is dead easy, and a great way to start incorporating throws into a routine. Just start doing outward or inward alternating hip circles, and make a throw from the hand in front. From inward circles catch the club backwards, fairly high and finish with a flourish over the shoulder.



More cheese:



Camembert - Basically, Chase the Sun, with one club between the legs on the turn:



Start doing parallel hip circles to the right. Left club goes between the legs, turn left, pull out the left club, and go up for a high behind shoulder circle. The right just kinda follows, circle besides the hip.



Cheers






EDITED_BY: Stone (1104977894)

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 22nd Dec 2004
Hi Stone

First up - I agree with the throw offs being critical to smooth transitions - work on them as much as you can to get them smooth and naturally flowing - took me ages not to thrown them away when working on the throw off

And secondly, to both you and Josh, I wasnted to

say thank you to the two of you for being so generous in sharing what you have learnt about club swinging and for inspiring the rest of us to continue to play with these torturous devices

I am gonna have to learn me the red bellied blacksnake - with a name like that, who can resist

Much respect

Posted: 23rd Dec 2004
Thanks Ade. It’s great to see you’re hanging in there, still clubbing away.

I had a crack at the Red Belly Black Snake last night. Started from the cradle, going low, into an inward curl. Ended up with the spin around head throw off :lol. They say half the fun is getting there, and there were some good contact moments as well.

I’ll double you and raise you a high five on the throw offs being critical for smooth transitions. Here is my Three to Two Club Juggling to Swinging Transition

Start juggling three clubs doing what ever, when a club is inevitably dropped. Do a double (both together) over the shoulder throw and go into a giant weave. If you were game, perhaps a double tomahawk throw, and go into a giant weave. Get your sexy (male or female) assistant picks up the fallen club. Cheers

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 5th Jan 2005
Updated bits on ring grip and added Fountains/Windmills and Waist Wraps.

I've was having trouble with my snake throw-offs, then I found an excellent description of the throw-off in Jillings Fig 14.4 (Lesson 14). Understanding the shoulder throw-off, will also help with hip snakes and spirals.

I've found the above method is also good for palm spinning, though it's perhaps not technically correct. I've been doing the first half of a circle in the palm, the using a little bump, to start the second half spin. Also good for setting up horizontal throws.

Try this, with the outward perpendicular snake. Do an outward perpendicular snake and let your arm go out into a V shape as reach shoulder height, then shoulder circle, and long arm circle into a heart-shaped circle.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 9th Jan 2005
Here’s a rather frivolous exercise: From the windmill, just stop and drop the clubs back further behind the head. Then try some pendulums by rocking back and forth b/t shoulder and head high.



Schatz has a move called the scissors. Where starting from outward long arm circles, where we do the scissors, instead of shoulder circles. The clubs cross on top of the head, drop down behind (Bit like a X. Fig 13.), and uncross, back into long arm circles.



If we do inward long arm circles, you can do a body sweep. Start inward long arm circles, and from where the clubs are crossed in the behind the head position, push up for a cross above the head, then sweep the down, tucking in you appendages, follow the contours of the body. Cross in front of the stomach, and behind the legs, back into long arrm circles. I suppose a bit like a full body snake, without the snake grip, in some ways.



Now, we should get a good effect if we add, what I think is called a poi suicide wrap around the neck. For the wrap, you bend your neck back slowly, do a butterfly with the poi, hands stay in front wresting on the neck, and then gently flick the shoulders, neck hands and poi forward simultaneously, and finish.




EDITED_BY: Stone (1105333086)

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 10th Jan 2005
Hey!
I thought I should say hello cause I'm new at spinning clubs, (the new part being the fire).
I've been doing calithenics for a while and then i found a better use for my clubs. I can weave and do all the standard stuff, but i just cant get how to do the behind the back weave, im having real trouble getting anything behind my back.
I was wondering if you could give me any tips

Posted: 11th Jan 2005
Hi flick, they have been doing fire with clubs for over 100 years. I hope you realise there may be a conflict between your fire clubs (aka torches) and your calisthenics club

Tip on getting behind the back (btb) and behind the back weave???

Sure, no problem :groan.

I generally do three beat weaves (forwards and backward) with poi, and it is not my best move be any stretch. From the normal 3-beat weave, I just take my right hand btb and over to the left side, bring my left btb and start a btb weave. Note that a forward weave in-front becomes backwards weave btb, and visa versa.

Tips for behind the back:

First, we need good waist circles. See Jillings Lesson 17 Waist Circles and WaistWwraps. In Fig 17.1 it would be easy to assume that the person in the illustration had extra long arms, like Dom But good technique and practice will also get you there.

First you need to be able to relax your arm/wrist. Like, if you tense up when you try on a ring at the market you will never get the rotten thing off, but if you relax the finger, the ring just slips-off like magic. Well the same thing also applies to and btb moves. You need a relaxed and flexible arm/wrist.

To get an idea of this, take the club in the shake-hand grip, and hold one arm out to the side a bit. Then slowly rotate the wrist upwards, so the back of the wrist (palm side) faces up. Keep turning the wrist, and let club fall into the ring grip. The whole arm/wrist should feel relaxed.

Now sweep down behind the back, with your wrist facing your back, and over to the opposite hip for a hip circle in front using the ring grip. The back of the wrist glides around the hip.

Practice relaxing your arm/wrist while doing long arm circles. Then do long arm circles, and take the club btb and over to the opposite hip, and do a hip circle.

Not sure if that was any help, as btb moves are difficult to explain, but anyone can get btb with practice.

cheers

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 15th Jan 2005
Ive just been given clubs for christmas. I suck though, i still get the grips wrog sometimes purely coz im so used to poi grips. I can just about do reels and thats it so far
My wrists need to become a bit more flexible i think. When i try and do a weave its alot more difficult and my arm sort of gets in the way.
Oh well ill keep at it. Its so tempting to pick up my poi instead though hehehe.

Posted: 16th Jan 2005
keep at it - the grip is really important to get right (well, the different sorts of grips, when to use them and how to transition between the various grips)

have fun - it really helps with your poi work in the end

Posted: 20th Jan 2005
Good points Ade.

And, The Reels are a good way to learn the grips. See Jillings.

cheers for now

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 1st Feb 2005
Whats Up all,
Im new to the art of club swinging . I was wondering where could I get a good set of practice clubs and also a good set of fire ones ? Thanx

Posted: 1st Feb 2005
Hi Az Fire Eater,

My short answer is get three universal white one piece swinging/juggling clubs for practice, and some Mister Babache torches for fire (See Hop shop). The MB torches aren't very good for juggling, so if you are into juggling, then suggest getting juggling torches so you can also swing fire.

The main difference between a swinging club and a juggling club is that swinging clubs generally have a ball on the end of the club, while juggling clubs have a somewhat flatter knob. For more info see Jillings, Lesson One and her Chapter on Equipment.

I think the universal white Juggleart type swinging/juggling clubs are a good place to start, as they are inexpensive and virtually unbreakable. I would suggest buying three, as then you can also learn to juggle, if you don't already. Certainly, Josh and other have gone on to incorporate lots of great juggling tricks into their routines.

As for torches, I use Mr Babache torches as sold in the Hop shop (very good value), but I think I will try some juggling torches next. Dube sell an intermediate juggling/swinging torch, that I find a bit unforgiving. Someone was going to get back to us with a report on theses ones, might be another thread as I can't find the post. Doc Coleman posted a link for Rhythmic Gym Clubs a few pages back.


If you have a Concentrate staff (see Hop shop) then you can also attach swinging knobs and turn your staff into swinging torches.

You can also get Electro glow clubs from Juggleart in Melbourne, Australia.


Cheers and have fun

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 17th Feb 2005
Great to read Stone's detailed analysis of Anna's book - not sure anyone has studied it in such detail before!

Anna and I are running our Fire/UV holiday events again in 2005. I've put them in the site calendar but here are the links:

Laurieston Hall, SW Scotland, 30th April to 6th May 2005

Swindon 26th to 29th August 2005

You can also catch up with Anna at Oxford Dance Camp Fri 5th to Sun 14th August 2005 or hopefully at Glastonbury although this is t.b.c.

Happy club swinging!

Posted: 17th Feb 2005
Thanx jugjimcos, I think I bang on a bit, but you can see we try and put Anna's very useful book, to good use

Wow, those holiday camps look like fantastic fun. I was just going to say UK too far away, but serious after looking at the pics, next year perhaps.

cheers

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 19th Mar 2005
Hi everyone, hows it going?

What’s everyone been trying?

I’ve been trying same direction snakes, one high one low with inside snakes to the side. And same direction perpendicular (rope) snakes, where one is going up as the other is going down (grrr). Think Josh has been doing them (old chestnuts) for a while, but I needed good flexibility to even contemplate them.

I haven’t found a description of the perpendicular snakes in Jillings. Which are a form of travelling snake; club kept vertical (I) going up from the hips or down from shoulders. The key is slipping the club between the inside of the forearm and body. This slip is described in Jillings Fig 15.3.

The inward one takes a bit to get used to as the club is travelling down and you slip the club to go behind for a second circle btb. Anyhow this got me thinking. For outward circles and snakes I travel close to the hip going forward. For inward ones, I travel close to the hip going back. So I started trying the opposite. Have a go with an inward snake close to the hip going forward.

I finally got the 5 beat reverse weave. So if anyone is having trouble with the “Twister, Tying the Knot, Tangle, Double Tangle (Tangle plus Supplement) and Hip Tangle” or whatever they called them back then. Then you have my sympathy. All I think Schatz is doing with the Double Tangle (Tangle plus Supplement) is start the Supplement with the left in front instead of the right as in the Tangle.

To put it another way, I’ve been looking at the transition from hip circle to shoulder circles as a figure eight. So from a lower fountain (waist wrap) going to the right, we lead with the right and go behind the right hip for a circle, left follows. Now instead of continuing the ww, just stop with the trunk turned to the right and bit. Let the left unwind and both clubs come out parallel like Fig 1. below. So from there it’s just a matter of crossing right before left or visa versa, as you go up into shoulder circles.

Fig 1. Clubs facing to the right

Right hand side

I I (forearms/hands/clubs)
O (back of the head)

Left hand side

It’s not rocket science, so I hope it’s understandable. It’s even easier if you come out of the first ww circles and just stop, just let the clubs untwist and let the left travel to the left side of the body, while the right stays on the right. Both forearms/hands should be in front of the body (I o I) ready to start a weave in side plane (ie. wall to side plane).

Finally, I’m starting to get into flowers. I have always had trouble with long arm and hand circles in side plane. One thing I noticed is that we may need to change the grip when swinging long arm circles. As the half the circle is forward (in front of the head) while the other half backwards (behind the head).

I like the name flowers, and this anti-spin think has been a dream since I first tried them with staff (lol staff pinwheels). Got the idea from an amusement park ride called the “octopus”.

Anyone going to Easter Confest?

cheers

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 20th Mar 2005
This was meant to be is a much condensed version of my previous post ?



Follow Circles and Figure Eights and Snakes (to the right, no less)



The first circles of the waistwrap (lower fountain) are a follow circles. The right leads behind the right hip, left follows. Right travels through its circle, and leads in front of the right hip for circle in front, left follows. Ok that bit in between the back and front circles, when the right just in front of the right hip, is a pivot point, apogee or whatever. You can go anywhere from there: up or down - forward of reverse. With either right or left hand leading.



For the normal waistwraps, start the follow circles in front of the right hip. Right club faces forward (side plane) and is ready to fall behind the right hip, the left is held just above the right club, at 90 degrees, facing the side (wall plane).



For the upside down (inverted) waistwraps to the right. Just flip the normal waistwrap starting position over to the left side. Literally, so the left club is starting on top, in front of the left hip, right club facing backwards.



Carries (pass) are a bit different, and have more in common with hip coffee grinders (right behind right hip, left arm over front to follow. Left arm over front alternates with left arm over back).



This is basic, so let me know if I got it wrong.



Re basics - sometimes I concentrate so hard on learning a difficult move like an isolation, that I miss the important thing. I was just using the first part of the waistwrap to start isolations. After the first circles behind. I have trunk turned right a bit and bringing the poi/clubs inside b/t my fore arms for the isolations. Then I go over to the left for an isolated/inside/waistwrap. The important thing for me though, was the figure eights, probably better though of as snakes



Figure eights are really a lemniscate; a strip of ribbon is twisted and attached at the ends, forming a two dimensional surface. I like them because they are really snakes.





cheers

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 20th Mar 2005
stone, I think its time for you to start posting videos

Posted: 21st Mar 2005
cheers glass, I hadn’t thought of a video, but yeah why not.



perhaps after Easter.



And a tip to any poiers who make it down here to the dungeons looking for info on snakes because they can’t do em with poi. Think about the snake grip and you should come up with a compromise; schatz approved none the less.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 30th Mar 2005
While browsing for anything club related on the internet, I found this

https://www.clubswinging.net/

I can't say I've ever seen anyone else using the grip that the bloke on the right's using.
I'm fairly sure it's not in Jillings or Richter. Not to sure about Schatz though, I seem to have mislaid my copy.

But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

Posted: 30th Mar 2005
Cool Bov, haven’t seen that site before. How are your club palms and vanishs going?

It seems like an ad for clubs packed with a Ed Thomas video. I visited Indian clubs hit Ed’s video link and it brought up clubswinging.net. So it could be Ed’s new video or his previous one repackaged; not sure as I haven’t seen them.

The grips do look a bit different. The lady in the middle looks ready to impale someone, so perhaps the grips are the ones recommended by Staff Sarg Moss (c. 1900), and reflect a more martial approach to club swinging

The guy on the left (arms in a V) is using a traditional solid grip with his index finger extended. I used to use this grip, but now I prefer the solid grip recommended by Jillings, without the index finger extended.

The guy on the right has a solid shake hands grip. This is similar to Jillings grip, but Jillings recommends holding the club b/t the thumb and first two fingers instead of wrapping the whole hand around the club. I like the Jillings solid grip because it offers flexibility, control and feel.

cheers

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 19th Apr 2005
everyone

Bov, have you been using that “sabre” type grip in the picture? I was showing a martial arts guy some poi and clubs at Confest. He thought the moves were ok, but the grips a bit weak. Think he would have liked that one.

I suppose it’s ironic that a large percentage of the Indian club swinging information is related to martial arts. Anyhow, I also had a hunt round and found a couple of good club sites I hadn’t seen before. They are: The Secret World of Indian Clubs and Ed Thomas SEALS training. Both have lots of interesting links.

Has anyone come across Kundalini or Sacred Geometry in their travels?

Someone showed me a Kundalini exercise once, but I didn’t know that Kundalini literally means 'coiling,' like a snake. Energy and consciousness - moves in spiralling motion - coils - loops - the snake…….etc.

And I read this nice piece somewhere ”Indian Clubs were the quintessential symbol of the Physical Culture movement that engulfed physical training during the antique era of sports.”

cheers

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 20th Apr 2005
I tried it very briefly, I didn't like it much, although that may well be because I'm more used to the other grips. It seems very restrictive, I like having the relatively weaker grips, they give more maneuverability without needing some seriously bendy wrists.

Holy cow, I've just read a bit of the secret world site - those clubs are huge!
I've got a couple of 2 pound clubs and they're plenty heavy enough for me

But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.