Forums > Technical Discussion > Club/torch swinging
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Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
There had been a bit of interest shown in club/torch swinging recently so perhaps it's a good time to start a general discussion on club swinging.
I really enjoy clubs because I like the symmetry of club swinging, and I think they teach you the natural pathways for the body movements required for good poi/staff technique (if you know what I mean).
However, it's taking me ages to learn the proper grips, especially the ring grip, and I sometimes wonder if I'm wasting my time learning the proper grips. I've noticed that quite a few people hold their clubs with the club between the first and middle fingers, and this grip makes it easy for poi like moves. Some club's even have a groove around the knob to facilitate this grip (don't start).
I've always followed Daina the Huntresse'srecommendations "You may have the urge to hold the torch between you first and middle fingers instead of the thumb and first finger, but resist! The ball-and-socket grip will give you a lot move flexibility once you're used to it.
So I wondering what grips are people using, and is it worth persevering with the proper grips???
[ 30 September 2002, 07:48: Message edited by: Stone ]
There had been a bit of interest shown in club/torch swinging recently so perhaps it's a good time to start a general discussion on club swinging.
I really enjoy clubs because I like the symmetry of club swinging, and I think they teach you the natural pathways for the body movements required for good poi/staff technique (if you know what I mean).
However, it's taking me ages to learn the proper grips, especially the ring grip, and I sometimes wonder if I'm wasting my time learning the proper grips. I've noticed that quite a few people hold their clubs with the club between the first and middle fingers, and this grip makes it easy for poi like moves. Some club's even have a groove around the knob to facilitate this grip (don't start).
I've always followed Daina the Huntresse'srecommendations "You may have the urge to hold the torch between you first and middle fingers instead of the thumb and first finger, but resist! The ball-and-socket grip will give you a lot move flexibility once you're used to it.
So I wondering what grips are people using, and is it worth persevering with the proper grips???
[ 30 September 2002, 07:48: Message edited by: Stone ]
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
member
30 posts
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
30 posts
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Posted:
The first and middle finger grip is good for a funny little move called a flurry, but not much else really. Plus it hurts a lot if you do it too much. ( I.E. mastering Flurries, ha ha ).
For front circles ( with arms down ) I find I use the ring grip with my index finger loose though because for some reason it is les likely to hurt my index finger joint, and I find it allows the index finger to extend out quickly for stopps, direction changes, and any toss moves ( the fulcrum of your index finger is the control point for club tosses. )
For back circles I use a ball and socket grip where the socket is all my fingers curled loosely around the ball. Where your arm is will determine which grip is right for which circle. ( I.E. if your right arm is across your body parrallel to the ground and pointing left, the grips need to be reversed. )
I'm no expert, but I got the above from my buddy Sling who got it from the man himself, Allan Jacobs years ago. I did have the privilege of meeting Allan at a Gizmo Guys shows a few years back. ( For those who don't know, he is one of the crew that originally brought club swinging back from obscurity in the early eighties. And a kick ass juggler and performer. )
You know what would be really handy is some clear close up video footage where you can actually see the hands up close.
Iain
The first and middle finger grip is good for a funny little move called a flurry, but not much else really. Plus it hurts a lot if you do it too much. ( I.E. mastering Flurries, ha ha ).
For front circles ( with arms down ) I find I use the ring grip with my index finger loose though because for some reason it is les likely to hurt my index finger joint, and I find it allows the index finger to extend out quickly for stopps, direction changes, and any toss moves ( the fulcrum of your index finger is the control point for club tosses. )
For back circles I use a ball and socket grip where the socket is all my fingers curled loosely around the ball. Where your arm is will determine which grip is right for which circle. ( I.E. if your right arm is across your body parrallel to the ground and pointing left, the grips need to be reversed. )
I'm no expert, but I got the above from my buddy Sling who got it from the man himself, Allan Jacobs years ago. I did have the privilege of meeting Allan at a Gizmo Guys shows a few years back. ( For those who don't know, he is one of the crew that originally brought club swinging back from obscurity in the early eighties. And a kick ass juggler and performer. )
You know what would be really handy is some clear close up video footage where you can actually see the hands up close.
Iain
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Oops, perhaps a nice mod could move this thread to Other Toys. Thanks
Thanks Iain. I have been dropping the clubs a bit recently; that's a good thing?
Any advice on that pesky outward hip (draw) spiral. I'm missing something important when I try to go behind (after completing the circles in front)if you know what I mean.
[ 30 September 2002, 09:27: Message edited by: Stone ]
Oops, perhaps a nice mod could move this thread to Other Toys. Thanks
Thanks Iain. I have been dropping the clubs a bit recently; that's a good thing?
Any advice on that pesky outward hip (draw) spiral. I'm missing something important when I try to go behind (after completing the circles in front)if you know what I mean.
[ 30 September 2002, 09:27: Message edited by: Stone ]
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
member
30 posts
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
30 posts
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Posted:
Yes it's a good thing to be dropping them! That's because the motion should use as much of the clubs natural momentum as possible, so that as the club goes through your hand, your grip is only as tight as it needs to be to keep it there. Thus, you should be erring on the too loose side sometimes, meaning a club goes flying.
For the outward spiral, this is especially important. For you to switch grips, the club has to be really coasting, allowing you to move your fingers while it just merrily sails around it's circle. I'd suggest trying it at various speeds, including really slow, and try it with your hand as loose as you can get it. ( Drop some clubs I mean, = )
Iain
Yes it's a good thing to be dropping them! That's because the motion should use as much of the clubs natural momentum as possible, so that as the club goes through your hand, your grip is only as tight as it needs to be to keep it there. Thus, you should be erring on the too loose side sometimes, meaning a club goes flying.
For the outward spiral, this is especially important. For you to switch grips, the club has to be really coasting, allowing you to move your fingers while it just merrily sails around it's circle. I'd suggest trying it at various speeds, including really slow, and try it with your hand as loose as you can get it. ( Drop some clubs I mean, = )
Iain
Laguna dude
1,438 posts
Location: Laguna, California, US
1,438 posts
Location: Laguna, California, US
Posted:
hey, nice new thread on a new toy in our active repertoire!
i have little experience with clubs myself, so i'm gonna enjoy seein who uses them, what moves y'all do, & maybe pickin some up. . . good to have Iain with us here now, gotta see some live pix or even video of you playing clubs, dude, maybe you can even write an article, ya know we got a damn good series of poi lessons with little videos so peeps can really see what the move descriptions are all about, & their rhythm? ya wanna set the world on fire with clubs, let's get some club lessons up there too!
Stone, ya got any good pix?
hey, nice new thread on a new toy in our active repertoire!
i have little experience with clubs myself, so i'm gonna enjoy seein who uses them, what moves y'all do, & maybe pickin some up. . . good to have Iain with us here now, gotta see some live pix or even video of you playing clubs, dude, maybe you can even write an article, ya know we got a damn good series of poi lessons with little videos so peeps can really see what the move descriptions are all about, & their rhythm? ya wanna set the world on fire with clubs, let's get some club lessons up there too!
Stone, ya got any good pix?
molten cheers,
~ FireMike
FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US
BRONZE Member
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
would you like me to move this to the Other Toys forum for you, then?
would you like me to move this to the Other Toys forum for you, then?
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SILVER Member
Are we there yet?
1,897 posts
Location: australia
Are we there yet?
1,897 posts
Location: australia
Posted:
In another thread (in the poi section) wooden spoons are being discussed as a tool to help learn the weave. Just wondering if wooden spoons could be used as a substitute club training tool - or would it be better to just use clubs?
I ask, 'cause I'm not that interested (at this stage) to learn clubs, but can see how some of the movements would improve my poi work and if I could get away with using a spoon, well all the cheaper....
In another thread (in the poi section) wooden spoons are being discussed as a tool to help learn the weave. Just wondering if wooden spoons could be used as a substitute club training tool - or would it be better to just use clubs?
I ask, 'cause I'm not that interested (at this stage) to learn clubs, but can see how some of the movements would improve my poi work and if I could get away with using a spoon, well all the cheaper....
SILVER Member
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2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
I have just started to learn clubs myself, and have translated all my regular poi moves across, but want to extend what I know.
Do you know any good web or book resources where I can pick up some more info?
I have just started to learn clubs myself, and have translated all my regular poi moves across, but want to extend what I know.
Do you know any good web or book resources where I can pick up some more info?
It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.
What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...
member
30 posts
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
30 posts
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Posted:
Sure I guess moving this makes sense. ( Or start a torch/club section, hint hint ;P )
Um, wooden spoons would really not work well. I mean, you could probably do it, just like I can devil stick pretty much any linear object, but it will be hard and not conductive to learning the skill well. A better cheap substitue would be to make your own with some dowel, some kind of weight on the bulb end, and some kind of smooth round ball that fits easily in your hand ( say an inch or inch and a half across ) screwed to the other end for a grip. I think you can find wooden balls that you can screw on to things pretty easily at hardware stores. You need the weight at the end and the knob for learning proper technique.
As to resources, I think the best is probably the out of print video ( I think it was by Allan Jacobs ) and the Jillings book, also out of print. But you can at least order the Jillings book as photocopies here:
https://www.semlyen.net/cosmosjugglers/welcome.htm
Also, some one mentioned elsewhere that the Gandini video was really good.
https://www.mediacircus.biz/
I'd sure like to hear of any good online video clips, but I haven't found any yet. You could also look at the rec.juggling usenet group, as well as www.juggling.org and www.jugglingdb.com
Iain
Iain
Sure I guess moving this makes sense. ( Or start a torch/club section, hint hint ;P )
Um, wooden spoons would really not work well. I mean, you could probably do it, just like I can devil stick pretty much any linear object, but it will be hard and not conductive to learning the skill well. A better cheap substitue would be to make your own with some dowel, some kind of weight on the bulb end, and some kind of smooth round ball that fits easily in your hand ( say an inch or inch and a half across ) screwed to the other end for a grip. I think you can find wooden balls that you can screw on to things pretty easily at hardware stores. You need the weight at the end and the knob for learning proper technique.
As to resources, I think the best is probably the out of print video ( I think it was by Allan Jacobs ) and the Jillings book, also out of print. But you can at least order the Jillings book as photocopies here:
https://www.semlyen.net/cosmosjugglers/welcome.htm
Also, some one mentioned elsewhere that the Gandini video was really good.
https://www.mediacircus.biz/
I'd sure like to hear of any good online video clips, but I haven't found any yet. You could also look at the rec.juggling usenet group, as well as www.juggling.org and www.jugglingdb.com
Iain
Iain
Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
4,224 posts
Location: Back in Paris... for now !
4,224 posts
Location: Back in Paris... for now !
Posted:
Good day
Flash is right, this actually would be much more cosy in the "other toys" forum
Anyway , I just wanted to recommend and amazing DVD for club swinging released by the Gandini juggling troop.
I have had the opportunity to watch it in Paris and found it highly interesting, very clear . It gives the basic of club swinging, but also opens new possibilities.
very helpfull to adapt to poi afterwards
If you can buy it / take a look at it, please do. you will not regret it
shine on
cassandra
Good day
Flash is right, this actually would be much more cosy in the "other toys" forum
Anyway , I just wanted to recommend and amazing DVD for club swinging released by the Gandini juggling troop.
I have had the opportunity to watch it in Paris and found it highly interesting, very clear . It gives the basic of club swinging, but also opens new possibilities.
very helpfull to adapt to poi afterwards
If you can buy it / take a look at it, please do. you will not regret it
shine on
cassandra
"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"
member
30 posts
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
30 posts
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Posted:
You were the someone! Ha ha. I may just order that, there seems to me be not a whole lot available.
Iain
You were the someone! Ha ha. I may just order that, there seems to me be not a whole lot available.
Iain
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Flash is a nice mod. And from memory, had some good hints on buying round draw knobs from the hardware.
FireMike, there is a nice club pic in the gallery at Concentrate.
Hi Ade, another alternative might be to invest in some of those white, one piece, plastic clubs like they sell at juggleart.
I think they call them universal or beginner clubs because you can use them for club swinging (they have a knob) and if you buy three you can learn to juggle (if you don't already). That's what I did. They are about $15 (aud) each and will last forever.
Rozi, like Iain said, the Jillings site has some good info. Juggleart (as well as other places) sell The Book of Club Swinging by Ben Richter and Schatz's Club Swinging book. I brought Shatz's book then found I had to go back and get Richter's Intro book.
Interestingly enough, Juggleart generally recommend Richter's book for learning poi. I suspect it's because they don't have any poi books.
Pele dug up these links a while ago, and they are well worth reading.
here
here
here
and here
Hi Cass, looks like there might be a run on that Gandini club swinging DVD.
Cheers
Flash is a nice mod. And from memory, had some good hints on buying round draw knobs from the hardware.
FireMike, there is a nice club pic in the gallery at Concentrate.
Hi Ade, another alternative might be to invest in some of those white, one piece, plastic clubs like they sell at juggleart.
I think they call them universal or beginner clubs because you can use them for club swinging (they have a knob) and if you buy three you can learn to juggle (if you don't already). That's what I did. They are about $15 (aud) each and will last forever.
Rozi, like Iain said, the Jillings site has some good info. Juggleart (as well as other places) sell The Book of Club Swinging by Ben Richter and Schatz's Club Swinging book. I brought Shatz's book then found I had to go back and get Richter's Intro book.
Interestingly enough, Juggleart generally recommend Richter's book for learning poi. I suspect it's because they don't have any poi books.
Pele dug up these links a while ago, and they are well worth reading.
here
here
here
and here
Hi Cass, looks like there might be a run on that Gandini club swinging DVD.
Cheers
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
member
30 posts
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
30 posts
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Posted:
That *is* a really nice torch swingin pic! Are you part of Concentrate, Stone?
Yeah the Schatz book is weird, hard to read, but good stuff in there. I've never seen the Richter book. I'll have to find that one. I've seen a friend's copy of Jilling's and it looks very well done.
As to buying cheap clubs, what you want are narrow bodied one piece plastic with *round* knobs. They don't have to be full circles ( on the knobs ) but should be close to full circles. However, the body should be slim. Most decorated one piece clubs are "american" which means a very fat body, much harder to swing. You want a euro body with an american knob essentially. Two good options cheap are:
- the "spotlight" from www.renegadejuggling.com
- the "airflight" from Dube.
If you want something better for juggling ( and pricier ) but that you can spin too, the Todd Smith Euros are really nice clubs with much rounder knobs than most upscale euro clubs ( though it is not as smooth ). Also Radical Fish makes cool looking clubs with fairly round knobs.
One of my favourite dealers is Ben Schoenberg from Serious Juggling. Really good guy, deserves our business! www.seriousjuggling.com
iain.
That *is* a really nice torch swingin pic! Are you part of Concentrate, Stone?
Yeah the Schatz book is weird, hard to read, but good stuff in there. I've never seen the Richter book. I'll have to find that one. I've seen a friend's copy of Jilling's and it looks very well done.
As to buying cheap clubs, what you want are narrow bodied one piece plastic with *round* knobs. They don't have to be full circles ( on the knobs ) but should be close to full circles. However, the body should be slim. Most decorated one piece clubs are "american" which means a very fat body, much harder to swing. You want a euro body with an american knob essentially. Two good options cheap are:
- the "spotlight" from www.renegadejuggling.com
- the "airflight" from Dube.
If you want something better for juggling ( and pricier ) but that you can spin too, the Todd Smith Euros are really nice clubs with much rounder knobs than most upscale euro clubs ( though it is not as smooth ). Also Radical Fish makes cool looking clubs with fairly round knobs.
One of my favourite dealers is Ben Schoenberg from Serious Juggling. Really good guy, deserves our business! www.seriousjuggling.com
iain.
SILVER Member
Are we there yet?
1,897 posts
Location: australia
Are we there yet?
1,897 posts
Location: australia
Posted:
Thanks Ian, thanks Stone, invaluable advice - I've actually got some of those plastic juggling clubs - but never use them looks like it's time to get them out.
Thanks Ian, thanks Stone, invaluable advice - I've actually got some of those plastic juggling clubs - but never use them looks like it's time to get them out.
BRONZE Member
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
I'm gonna move this to Other Toys
Thanks Stone. You get points for that.
I'm gonna move this to Other Toys
Thanks Stone. You get points for that.
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