Forums > Social Chat > terrorism on the 4th

Posted: 4th Jul 2002
oh my good god, angry people!!

dont mess up ur fun for some scaremongering. I've had to continue judging a dance competition for eight year olds from manchester ten mins after i found out that the bomb had gone off. You cant say "okay everyone, stop. by the way kiddies, ur parents might have been in a bomb attack..."

i think its very very unfair for americans to ask ME to stop and think about terrorism. Unless you have lived in England during the constant threat of IRA bombs, grown up with a family that is very much inside that threat and also the confusion that ur great grandfather was one of the terrorists inside the Dublin GPO then u have no right to glamourise what has happened to you.

It is horrific yes, but ask anyone living in Isreal what really is terrifying.

At least people in america can consider going out to raves. For some people, it is not an option.

oh and by the way, germany did start ww1. Okay so it didnt help that Archduke Ferdinand got himself killed, but germany were preparing war for a long time.

ex-hop-aholic, now inconsistent lurker...

Posted: 4th Jul 2002
to address your first issue about soldiers in war:
yes they follow there orders however they are not brainless fodder they do make the decision to fight because they believe in there country, leaders and way of life. are military is %100 volunteers. why do you think they go through the training and give up so much of there own life??
for political gain?? for oil?? name one war that US was envolved in that didnt have humanitarian goals. name just one and i will shut up. are military has great morale because they feel they are doing whats right.
second issue
"Which countries begged to have their leaders overthrown by the US?"
uh well first of all i never said that, hooked on phonics. in most wars our allies leaders ask us for help. we arent over throwing any leaders not even the leaders of the opposing military. the goal is to have both societies live together in peace. in some situations we have put men in power
simply because the country was in such turmoil that they cant institute any kind of stable goverment on there own. and yes i realize some of those leaders have become a problem too. well you have to try it doesnt mean everything is gonna be peachy.
am i speaking greek... for the 3rd time i know its not all about freedom.. we do fight for economic and political gain but in every war there are issues concerning the well being and freedom of other people and that is %100 acurate..
and in no way am i blindly following anyone i look at all sides of a situation... im not in the business of running a goverment and neither are you.. bottom line, the US the UK and are allies are the most successful societies in the world and have been for a long time. these govermants must be doing somthing right. true or false?
and my typing?? who the hell cares if my sentences dont start with a capitol. her typing was bad because you could barely understand the point she was making... and you live in the uk, you dont agree with your goverment??? please sont try to tell me the uk is different..

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

Posted: 4th Jul 2002
twirlyvic,
i dont know if you were responding to my post or
what. in no way was i down playing englands losses at the hands of terrosim. US has probably suffered the least of anyone at the hands of terrorism. im all about england. i like the english..
and i did say that germany more or less started ww1.. so we are in agreement there. im not trying to come off like united states is high and mighty or anything.. we are just a nation like any other.. however i dont like hearing the constant bashing we get. i think we are treated pretty shabby by alot of other countries and its not right.. we are good people for the most part.

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

Posted: 4th Jul 2002
from the man who thinks that somedays being canadian isnt all that bad, happy 4th of july america! have fun and drink bin laden under the floor! ( i did on canada day (july 1) )
lol

~A Soft Rubber Bodybuilding Smurf~

Posted: 4th Jul 2002
Well, I'm sorry to have begun an international discussion on war and all those heavy issues. I just hope that everyone has a super fantastic Independance Day and remember why we are watching those beautiful sparkly showers of fire in our sky! Happy Fourth everyone!!!

peace & luv,

The Caged One

Without further guilding the lily and with no more ado, I bid you farewell and sweet dreams...

Posted: 4th Jul 2002
I'm really fricken tired, so i'm going to have to reply to you later lightbug. However...

quote:

---

we arent over throwing any leaders not even the leaders of the opposing military.

---

Gee, they even admitted openly to the fricken Venezualua(sp sorry)coup...

oh, and "honest to whatever" was a replacement for "honest to god" .. sorry if i confused anyone or if that made it hard to understand.

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

Posted: 5th Jul 2002
*YAAAAAAAAAAWN* _stretch_

I go away for a couple of months and Dom is still making incredibly intelligent observations based on the truth whilst US patriots angrily mispell and use poor grammer to shit out opinion based on mindless patriotism. I love my country but I don't support their agenda.

To the original question at hand, people get hit by cars I still cross the road. Planes crash I still fly in 'em. Mindless idiots blow things up, I stil;l go out and live my life. Don't let the fear get you down.

Posted: 5th Jul 2002
Dom, You are by far the most ignorant person that I know when it comes to the military. I do not follow my orders blindly but I do not question them either. If I know there is a better way of doing something I tell those in charge. I really want to say some harsh things, but I know that they will fall on deaf ears. Continue to think what you will about me and my military brothers and sisters. You dont matter, Oh and I did live in England during the late '80 's and early '90's. Bet some of you didnt know that. I also lost an aunt in the September 11 attacks.

It is no lie that America has done some shady things in the past. Then again wasnt it the Brittish who tried to opress thousands of colonists who only wanted freedome, ohh and the French who set out to conquer the world, and the Germans and the Romans, and the Communist countries. Ohh and Spain didnt they slaughter millions of people in Centrial America for gold and other stones? Sounds to me like Europe has done more crappy things than America has. I dont blame any of you living today for those actions, so why do you blame me? I can not attone for Americas sins any more than you can for your countires. (Please understand that most of this is generalised and is not to one specific person)

Dom, you are a peacenik, and thats out of your own mouth. You will never understand what it is like to be willing to lay your life down for people you dont even know. I doubt you would lay down your life for someone you did know!

There is somthing I must know from you Dom, I know and I say with upmost confidence that I would die for you, I would take a bullet for you I would fall on a grenade for you. Could you do the same for me?

I honestly dont think you have the guts to answer that question. However if you do and you honestly answer yes, then you have only had a fraction of a taste of what it means to be me.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 5th Jul 2002
thank you ray, i was begining to think i was standing alone here. i wasnt even begining to cast stones at other countries. it seems to me like america has been the most responsible with there military power. all of you are quick to pass judgement but none of you have any suggestions on what should be done instead. you just like to talk big. i guess you would just do nothing about the problems the world faces right. just let everyone fend for themselves? is that what should have been done in ww2? dom your probably the type of person who would stand by while your good friend gets his ass kicked. well good for you, you ll live a long life provided there are people like ray still out there protecting your ungrateful ass. you ll never understand commradery or brotherhood. your loss.
anyway thanks to our canadian buddy red dragon.
and i hope everyone had a great 4th. i know i did.
i still get choked up, especially when ray charles sings america the beautiful....

always faithful

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

Posted: 5th Jul 2002
arguements like this make me glad patriotism is dead in britain

ex-hop-aholic, now inconsistent lurker...

Posted: 5th Jul 2002
kyrian, first of all im sorry if i came off rude.
you are entitled to your opinion of course.
in regards to venezuela, i fail to see your point.
chavez is not a good leader. thats why there is a coup. he made big promises to get into power and never delivered. not only that but he is childish and not interested in others opinions.. he passes laws without consent of the people. these laws are pushing business owners and workers out of work. these laws were supposed strengthen the economy. they have done no such thing. in fact i think there worse then ever. and when others in the venezuela goverment opose him, he removes them from power and replaces them with his buddies. with all his lies and campaigning before elected he had i think about %80 of the people favoring him. at the present i believe he has about %30... unfortunatley you cant impeach him. they have to wait till his term is up (2004). by that time the damage would be done.. they were already revolting against there goverment. the US is just giving them a little help.. sounds to me like thats the right thing to do.. not to mention they get alot of money through oil exports with us and chavez is cutting that export which will only hurt both countries.. hes doing it out of spite.

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

Posted: 5th Jul 2002
That is unfortunate, but then again what you said makes sence, the only time Brits gather in any sort of numbers its to wave at the Queen when she does her anual "I'm still alive" parade.

Ohh simotainius (sp) posts

[ 06 July 2002, 06:48: Message edited by: Raymund Phule ]

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 5th Jul 2002
hee hee, oops.. are you telling me you wouldnt stand up to defend your country. nice. and if thats true why is your military our biggest supporter in battle and our greatest ally. after sept 11th they stood up with us and helped us destroy taliban facilities. they were right there with us.
thats patriotism.

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

Posted: 5th Jul 2002
I don't feel the need to be angry towards anyone in this thread or pick on people's grammer - a point's a point regardless of how the words are spelled and formatted. I just want to reitterate and suggest that people should realize that things are not as clear cut. "black and white" as they seem.....

quote:

---

Which countries begged to have their leaders overthrown by the US?

The US doesn't always fight for freedom, in fact it consistently helps dictators maintain power or helps overthrow elected leaders. The US government doesn't care much about other people's freedom, only it's own freedom to exploit and the money pooring into their pockets.

---

I won't completely argue with this statement - one example - Guatemala- 1954c or 55- We sponsored the exile of the country's nationalist president Arbenz.... For reasons including the fact that we make money off of the fruit being grown there and were at risk for losing out if that land was used to house and develop for the benefit of Guatemalans.... However, I hope that our government's actions are not out of sheer greed.. That said, I have done research on Colombia - not an easy topic- And have been told first hand by Colombians that they NEED outside help to get rid of the problems happening amongst the guerrilla, drug traffickers and the military...

A couple of people told me that the only hope many Colombians see is if the US does take action there... They don't want to live in fear and amongst chaos....
There is no easy solution, and I have felt very anti US policy in the past, but I learned to watch myself. ... I came to realize that it's not so clear cut and I need to start to realize why the US has made the moves they have...
I still get shakey and am unsure of our foreign policy and all of its motivations, but I hope you all don't feel like it's 100% evil... If you do, I think you should check yourself..... And respect those who do fight for our freedom - what would happen if we had no military?? Even our Canadian friends would most likely feel the effects......

So, those are some more of my thoughts... However, since it is the 5th of July now (& my birthday), I suggest if we want to keep up this discussion we move it to a new thread????? And hey, we made it through another day with the threats we've all heard not turning into actions...let's celebrate......
peace

Posted: 5th Jul 2002
Personally I'm amazed! Really quite impressed! I take my hat off to lightbug! Althouigh only knowing me through a discussion board you joined only 6 weeks you already know exactly how I think and act, even in trauma situations! Wow! Have you considered a career in behavourial psychology?

Unfortunately I'm extremely busy at the moment and can't get drawn into a big discussion. However if you're interested go have a read through the anti war thread from a while ago. There was loads of great points from people there, with Ray going a great job of putting his point across.

Right, I'm off to floss between my toes...

Posted: 5th Jul 2002
happy birthday dulce!!

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

Posted: 5th Jul 2002
i was just takin a couple shots at ya dom. im sorry to judge you. i was just talkin trash, kinda like you were about my country. this should not reflect on my other comments. i can get a bit nasty but im not a bad guy. im just defensive when it comes to my home. i didnt mean anything by it. to each his own...
lets be friends...

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

Posted: 5th Jul 2002
Happy B-day Dulce!!

Dom, that Brittish humor of your... gotta love it. You see how he smoothly deflects issues and points off of himself and on to others. Yes I know that his main source of the internet comes from work, and while he is at work he should be doing work. So I can not get offended at the fact that he has little time to be drawn into a big discussion.

However I must point out how he loves to dodge the big questions that are asked of him.

I am not one to say how we should speek to eachother on this bored, judging by my past posts, but it would be wise if we didnt nit pick at eachothers grammer and punctuation.

Dom is a very good speeker and is very book smart. I will admit that fully, but he lacks what I and a few others have. That is simply loyalty twords one country, patriotisim, and love for ones countrymen.

BEZERKER, first off welcome back, secondly, Dom hates America. America will never do anything good or right in his eyes. I wouldnt be supprised if he isnt infront of the American Embasy with a picket protesting about something different every night!

Yes that is me judging Dom but it also comes from Dom not denying it when I said that he hated America. I indulged a little.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 5th Jul 2002
ouch.

This argument will never be settled because your opinions (and i repeat OPINIONS) are counteracting. There is nothing wrong with that. But this conversation is the same as the one on religion.

All I have to say on the matter of anything (and I don't have much to say, not because I don't care, but because I find it pretty pointless talking about it) is; when I first listened to Bush's response to what happened on septemebr 11th of last year, i was more terrified about what was to happen than what had just happened. That man is an absolute lunatic. And I am ashamed that our government HAS to do as he says, otherwise we are on a losing streak too. I don't dislike americans or america. But your government is more of a threat to you then i can imagine. He's lost it. Completely lost it.
btw, I'm not praising the british government in that at all. They're shite too. All lying bastards. And yet, we vote them into parliament. Ooops. Something drastically wrong there.

Sorry if anything i said offended anyone, it isn't meant for that. I'm just voicing my opinion.
big kiss to everyone who celebrated independence day - hope you guys did some amazing spinning.
much love, Dibs xxx

Can miles truly separate us from friends? If we want to be with someone we love aren't we already there? If there is someone willing to show, and there is someone willing to see; magic happens. This is whem humans are alive. This is when the wingless fly.

Posted: 6th Jul 2002
Ok, i'm going to come back and clarify what all i was too tired to write earlier.

Ok first a point. I don't object to extra military spending for your beds or your kids education. it's the 18 billion dollar subamrines that bother me. Our military can hold off any other countries in teh world by a lot. A heck of a lot of people woudl haev to gang up on us before we'd fall. Or, we'd haev to fall from the inside, which is not impossible. Not even unlikely, in fact. I wish i could find the discussion/references i'd seen on this, it was very interesting. Our military didn't help us too much on September 11th. and I think that and inside corruption are the real threats to this country, not likely flat out war.

ok, next thought. vague warnings. don't think this is any conspiracy, don't think it's useful, just think someone somewhere thouught it was a bright "cover ur asses" type deal. i don't read a lot of significance into it. it's not new info. they're just sharing it now so no one gets upset about it later.

ok, so about the going into coutries for other reasons? The humanitarian thing is, IMO, a front at high levels. I'm not saying that soldiers don;t care. that they don't belive (at least in some situations) that what they are doing is to save peopel and in their hearts that's what they want. I do belive, based on evidence of how they pick where they fight and how long it takes them to get involved where thye go... (not to mention documenst on all the terrorism they supported in central america... some of those are declassified now, but no one wants to report on it.. especially not afetr september 11th.) Ok, i'm starting that sentence over. I do belive the descisions at the top are based on other reasons than humanitarianism. Especially considering teh ignorance of domestic problems at times. And that's totally a two way street, i'm just saying

ok, not having an intelligent arguement was 'cause i didn't want to get involved. but i am now.

"feeling sorry for the future of our country" was because a lot of people fail to see when teh government does something it's not supposed to. if we all stand up and say no, it might work. i think america's enough of a democracy for taht at least. example of something we need to think about: military tribunals for american citizens!

perhaps there are people begging for our assistance. there are also people who have suffered at our hands. recently too, not just "in the past. we did things differently then." I personally don't liek war. i still admit taht miltary is nescicary at times. i don't like the way we handled afgahnistan. especially the propaganda. and the mis-reported numbers of Al-Queada fighters for propaganda. they started out saying they wouldn't hurt civilians, but they did. *sighs* I'm not saying military isn' tnesc. or that there isn't honor involved especially for lower ranking soldiers, who are often truly out there in defense of freedom and other people (often, not always). I was born on a military base, my dad was in the militray for a time, i was going to join for a few years but i'm not eligible. i don't hate the individuals. i'm not happy with the stuff up top though.

As far as humanitarian goals in war, i think i said this but they could never appear to be going in for non-humanitarian reasons. The US govt was negotiating with the taliban up until the sept 11th attacks. they only became concerned with humanitarian issues when it became convinient (sp).

oh, and er, world war II? we didn't get involved till we got hurt.... i'm not assigning blame to us, certianly a lot of people didn't do anything... but neither did we..
kind of like how no american has even heard of East Timor? and now i'm not even sure i got that country right....over by australia.... eesh, i got told about this by a canadian friend a few years back, and i can't think now...

I still like america well enough. but it's starting to scare me. i realize most of my problems with it are very non-specific to america and are more humanity issues other than the health care thing and specific govt issues (which every govt has, so who's to say we're better or worse?.. [i don't know enough] so far, anyhow.) we're loosing rights very quickly though... patriotism is turning into something ugly sometimes- *sigh*

lightbug... bush isn't that great of a leader either... errr... his puppet masters, i mean. they're actually content to be working against most of Europe in the UN on abortion issues, with the very same islamic fundamentalists we are supposedly not in agreement with.... sitting around letting the military make extra descisions, decding we're at war w/o congressional approval again and then using it as an excuse for everything... kinda like the "war on drugs"...

and in order for our economic system to work we have to keep people to poor to survive legally... so some can be super rich... now, that's a whole other argument, so i'm going to move backwards from it, i'm just saying that who are we to pick leaders? i mean, we tried to throw out anotehr leader in S.A. for having a decent socialist agenda... god i need to do my research again, cuase i can't think of teh counrty or how long ago it was, i know it worked tho, i'd say early 90's but i could be mixing again....

and dibs? yeah, bush has lost it. no, i don't think he ever had it. he is kinda scary, but not as scary as local police and courts can be... or mebbe scarier, b/c he could start worse things rolling....

ok, i'm tired again. if i missed something let me know.

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

Posted: 6th Jul 2002
Anybody wanna dance??? I need a break... But overall it's pretty cool to be able to hear so many opinions in one place... Regardless of what they are, I'm glad ya shared.... Good night...
peace

Posted: 6th Jul 2002
Aye good points have been made, Personally you will never hear me say that any country is perfect and that they have done no wrong. America does do things for its own advantage, and truth be known we arnt the only ones!!

I can not argue with anything that has recently been said (bummer )

Ohh well this topic will die in a few hours unless someone says something to flare it up again... I sure wish I could think of something mean to say but I cant hehe

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 6th Jul 2002
ok wtf? why do you all think bush is crazy??
i mean dont get me wrong, i didnt vote for him. he does come off like a ya-hoo but come on what has he done thats so crazy. anyway he doesnt have absolute power over anything. do you live in the states kyrian. if you do it doesnt seem like you ve been here long.. just curious.. and as far as this country falling from the inside. it will never happen. my only concern is crazy lunatics with nukes and chem weapons from angry jealous spiteful countries.. i think some americans are a little to rage against the machine and the brits are going soft.

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

Posted: 7th Jul 2002
lol @ ray, be careful what you say eh?

i'm surprised i think that you didn't argue with me, but pleased to haev actually agreed with you for once! not sure it'll ever happen again... no hard feelings though from ever, even tho you'll be long gone when i hit san diego i think...

lightbug... yes, i have lived here almost all my life, except a year when i was pretty little, when my dad was on military duty in West Germany (back when there was such a thing).

why do you think i havn't lived here all my life?

and you have to admit, Bush's axis of evil comment was extremely stupid from an international relations standpoint. Also, the question to Brazils' president about "Oh, do you have blacks here too?" Or getting mad at the french reporter for speaking french? i don't know if he's crazy, but he's not the sharpest knife in the box...

And if you truly belive it's impossible for America to fall from the inside, go read some history. Ever heard of the Holy Roman Empire? I hope I can still find the discussion I had been reading on it, I'm gonna go look soon Thanks for reminding me of that.

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

Posted: 8th Jul 2002
I found a qote that I should put on the patriotism post but my time is limited so this will have to do.

This is for those of you who question me and my motives, why I would die for my country and follow orders to my death. Or should I say, namely Dom.

U.S. Marines are the most peculiar breed of human beings I have ever witnessed. They treat service as if it was some kind of cult, plastering their emblem on almost everything they own, making themselves look like insane fanatics with haricuts to ugentlemanly lengths, worshiping their Commandant almost as if he was a god, and making weird animal noises like a gang of savages. They'll fight like rabid dogs at the drop of a hat just for the sake of a little action, and are the cockiest sones of bitches I have ever known. Most have the foulest mouths and drink well beyond man's normal limits, but their high spirits and sense of brotherhood set them apart and, generally speaking, the United States Marines I've come in contact with are the most professional soldiers and the finest men and women I have ever had the pleasure to meet. The man who will go where his colors go, without asking; who will fight a phantom foe in a jungle and mountain range, with out counting; and who will suffer and die in the midst of incredible hardsip without complaint, is still what he has always been from Imperial Rome to sceptered Britain to demorcatic America. He is the stuff of which legions are made. His pride is his colors and his Regiment, his training hard and thorough and coldly realistic to fit him for what he must face,and his obedience is to his orders. As a legionary, he held the gates of civilization for the classical world.... he has been called United States Marine

LtCol T.R. Fehrenbach
US Army- in This Kind of War

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 9th Jul 2002
ya, bush is kind of a dumb ass.. however i dont feel he really represents america.. the people do.
theres no use argueing about it i guess some people just dont get it. i feel great pride in my country and the men and women who made it possible, and great respect especially for the people who paid in blood for my freedom. america is a great country. sometimes people who have been here all there lives forget... ask some of the people who fled there countries to come here.

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

Posted: 9th Jul 2002
Outstanding point lightbug, if America is so terrible why do we get tons of imigrants ever year?

I find it interesting that some poeple will stop posting on a topic when puch comes to shove. They will use the convienience of work to stop posting or something else. Yes your supposed to work at work (duh thats why its called work) but they have pleanty of time to post on other things. Interesting, did perhaps the lame patriots who defend their country blindly strike a blow that the Anti- America persons can not repell?

Damn now I am sounding like Bush hehe Axis of Evil and all that. Yes I agree that lable was rather lame.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 9th Jul 2002
affirmative we could go around in circles all day talking about why america is bad or why its good.
bottom line is for many years america has been a shining light in the world.. america has advanced this world in everyway i can think of. and whenever this world was close to being plunged into to darkness americans stood up for what is right. im not saying we are the only ones but pick another country to bash. theres alot worse out there. alot worse. worry about the countries who have not tried to better mankind. worry about the bastards who just destroy and kill with no regard or respect to human life. i cant beleive people want to point fingers at the america. its ridiculous and its unwaranted..

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

Posted: 9th Jul 2002
i think we have won!!

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

Posted: 9th Jul 2002
we beat england again!! thats gotta hurt.

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!