Forums > Social Discussion > COP15 Protest Video

Posted: 20th Dec 2009
thanks for the notification, dream

It comes to no surprise to me that a(ny) system which is prone to protect itself even resorts to violence and undemocratic means.

The amount of responses to your post (to me) demonstrate that in these times (and this forum) more people enjoy passive and peaceful protest (from the comfort of their own desktop). Political demands - I admit - are far more easy (and comfortable) to proclaim in online petitions than with a banner in your hand, facing grim security with helmets and batons.

I don't know whether you've been there yourself - but my respect goes to those who went.

Many do still live in the delusion that we're actually live in a democracy when to others the people merely are a "tolerated evil" - batteries, so to speak - that fuel the system with energy.

"Democracy" (as "communism") is yet to be realized on this planet.

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 21st Dec 2009
So we have world leaders burning oil to get together do discuss burning less oil.

Then we have protesters burning oil to attend..and protest what, exactly? That "we're" burning to much oil?

The mind boggles.

Quote:Political demands - I admit - are far more easy (and comfortable) to proclaim in online petitions than with a banner in your hand, facing grim security with helmets and batons.

Yes, I agree, it's also way greener, we had activists from here fly to Hopenchangen.

Posted: 22nd Dec 2009
you mean it's way greener to stick clownfish pictures on the inside of a mask and dive in a bathtub than going all the way down to Andaman sea, don't you?

I would say that the protesters went to Copenhagen not to protest about burning too much oil but to protest about a puppet theater that every sane person knew was one - way before Barack Obama declared it as a great success/ step for mankind...

It's maybe not so much about burning less oil... As I see it it's about companies installing CO² filters in their plants... (simple, cheap and effective ones being available), it's about reducing CO² emissions - not just about burning less fuel.

It's maybe about the fact that industries are caught up in a race (spurred by stock market gamblers) which is unrestricted by governments. That managements are maximizing revenues - thus green technology is quite unpopular. It doesn't serve a purpose - as long as goods don't get taxed for their environmental impact.

It's maybe further about aid being paid to third world countries - taxpayers money of course - so "they" can "afford" to buy higher technology - from western companies of course...

Maybe about the fact that 50% of the worlds billionaires are US Americans (the worlds second largest emitter of greenhouse gases) and the US not being ready to make that important step (committing itself to reduce greenhouse gases (by implementing filters) by a reasonable number - let alone ratifying the Kyoto protocol...)

t's maybe about "transparency" about *factual* CO² emissions from China... What we seem to know is that China is the largest emitter of CO² - but we don't exactly know just by how much...

So basically what these protests might be about, is: leave your comfort zone "now"... it's about raising demands - not just "ooh, but I just stopped to eat meat yesterday - so I do contribute my part (effective in 10 years maybe)... I signed petitions for polar bears, dolphins and tuna fish and donate 20 bucks every month to aid 3rd world countries... the rest certainly politicians and lobbyists will (have to) manage... because (you know) next elections will certainly come and they want to keep their job"... Maybe it's also about BS deals with countries where everybody is burning plastic in the backyard and who comprise almost 50% of the worlds population...

And maybe it's a tiny bit about ordinary people falling for propaganda and letting themselves be sold for quite cheap... "ooh yes, I preserve water... and petrol... and electricity" - so the industrial plant next door can continue to excessively burn and waste theirs for a few more years.

Because some people know one thing: when it comes to give up commodities (like car, TV and holidays) - it's exactly where they got others by the balls. First create demand, then dependency and then threat to take it away... aka "let's talk about crack... first gram is free..."

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 22nd Dec 2009
Quote:you mean it's way greener to stick clownfish pictures on the inside of a mask and dive in a bathtub than going all the way down to Andaman sea

Yes..of course. But if environmentalist see fit to fly, then why shouldn't I ? I'll make sure to complain about the environment whenever i get the chance. Got my hemp Greenpeace T-shirt already..no wait, maybe it's not the smartest thing to take hemp to Thailand I may end up posting from a really nasty jail.

CO2 filters are all fine and well..on the surface but what happens to the billions, and I mean billions of tonnes of carbon removed by these things? Can we convert it to baking soda and bury it somewhere ? Maybe in tapped out oil wells ?

I see the pay out developing nations angle, just give them money. To do what with, exactly? can they not afford their own carbon free, read nuclear, technologies? Or is this more of a "ransom demand" that the protesters want to see the first world pay for "social justice" reasons? I think it is.

Quote:So basically what these protests might be about, is: leave your comfort zone "now"...

Yes, but how many of these protesters are willing to leave their comfort zones and set an example? If they expect me to leave mine, then i expect them to leave theirs..first.

I'm fully aware of the "dump it on the politicians" tactic only I see it as one of those have your cake and eat it too philosophies.

Posted: 22nd Dec 2009
always refreshing to read your posts

don't worry, there are no workstations in Thai jails... but when in BKK you could do some Karma Yoga and visit the tibetan monk who already served 7 years there... he's a really nice guy and ... well just got caught up in the wrong place... at the wrong time. happy to give you details...

it's quite pointless to discuss depositing CO² if it is not even to be removed. but whilst talking about repositories: you reckon those existing for radioactive waste are safe? But as Chernobyl proves - nuclear accidents can be blessings in disguise for nature...

I'm certain that even some activists have their fair trouble in identifying the issues. IMO it's not about "ransom" being paid to 3rd world nations... and I'm certain that a number of activists repeatedly fall for the pity game and are easy to put forth demands (they can't finance). Western governments pay "social justice" to third world dictators already...

Well Stout... who moves first, looses. This is why people rather fly to space and wave a banner than putting that money in the projects directly. This is why people only expose themselves signing petitions, but keep their fortnight all inclusive 2 dives/day + 1 nightdive... whaleshark guaranteed and if it were for dinner only.

It's not "dump it on the politicians" - they are only the ones staging the show. It's about come back out to the streets... you're old enough to remember the times.

Only after massive protests governments started putting pressure on the industry... you still find occupied houses today in Hamburg and Berlin... 30 years later...

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 22nd Dec 2009
Cheers Tom

BKK isn't really on the menu, BTDT and since my flight lands at midnight and I'm already at the airport, I'll just be jumping a flight to Samui first thing in the morning. I'm aiming for Tao, not so much to dive because at this time of year, visibility ( in my experience) isn't so good, but I'm returning to my fire spinning roots. yep, heading back to that beach bar where I started, 7 years ago, when I was so drunk I was going back to my bungalow to puke and this big fat Thai guy lit up the poi and handed me the chains.

Then it's on to Lanta for some diving. Unfortunately, everywhere else i research into going is turning out to be an overdeveloped schlockfest ie Ao Nang, so I might just stay there and rent a scooter and explore the island on non diving days.

No, I don't think repositories for storing nuclear waste are all that "safe". This,however is an issue that technology can at least try to deal with in a realistic manner. Just think, tons of available cheap electricity and electric cars. No more gas stations, no more shipping fuel, no more NOx pollution (smog). All home heating can be done electrically, so no more gas furnaces (lots around here, oil burning ones even). leaving fossil fuels for shipping and long distance transportation.

I'd be all about hydroelectric instead however this isn't feasible everywhere, much like geothermal.

Quote:Western governments pay "social justice" to third world dictators already

Yes they do..but it's never enough is it?

Quote:Well Stout... who moves first, looses.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Looses in what respect ?

Quote:It's not "dump it on the politicians"

But it is, I read it everyday on my "progressives" board and that's what the logic is all about. That society has to be chanced, tacitly through force, for the betterment of "all". What I'm on about is if protesters think this change is necessary and want to force it on me, then please excuse my pointing out the "inconsistencies" in their lifestyles.

Did you read that piece I posted by Derek Jensen? That kind of thinking. That change can happen ONLY at the political level and the personal is ineffective and minor. Why wait for it to be "forced" on us? That's my question to the protesters.

We've already covered the whole ACC denial thing, but that's a separate issue. Stone posted an excellent article on it upthread and it dovetails quite nicely with the dump it on the politicians mindset.


Quote:Only after massive protests governments started putting pressure on the industry

I don't know what you're referring to here.

Couldn't consumers demanding things like electric cars be seen as a form of protest?

Posted: 22nd Dec 2009
Originally Posted By: Fire TomIt's maybe not so much about burning less oil... As I see it it's about companies installing CO² filters in their plants... (simple, cheap and effective ones being available), it's about reducing CO² emissions - not just about burning less fuel.


Tom, it’s not just about reducing carbon dioxide emissions. It is about reducing Greenhouse gas emissions. That’s why reducing meat consumption is important. Cows and sheep (ruminants) are the third largest emitters of greenhouse gasses (in particular methane) next to energy and transport. You need an integrated approach.








EDITED_BY: Stone (1261530995)
EDIT_REASON: change of mind

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 23rd Dec 2009
no Stone, it's actually ALL about going veg...

Stout: not sure whether an electric Enfield would still sound as sexy but I hear you loud and clear on the "burning fossil fuel for transport and heating" issue...

Europe does have a much longer and stronger history of (militant) protest against their governments. Personally I'm not supporting violence as ultima ratio and appropriate means to pursue political goals but many (if not most) environmental protection acts are based upon the protests of the 80s (btw the most violent in recent history).

In the following decades, greens pushed into parliaments of some European nations and whilst I can't talk for other nations, if not for them, Germany would not be one of the strongholds of environmental protection.

Hence this protection only works if people have jobs. Facing financial/ economical crisis and fierce competition from third world countries, these achievements are at stake - at least the new challenges are not being picked up as they should.

"Who moves first, looses." Meaning that the first country, or coalition that is ready to offer necessary steps, (fears) loosing ground.

We're facing the situation that aid has been paid, but that never really trickled down to those who needed it. Not sure exactly HOW much ended up on Swiss bank accounts but certainly the bigger share.

Whilst I agree that ultimately you need to educate people and tell them what exactly they could contribute to the necessary change, you also need to regulate.

I'm not sure exactly WHY people choose to allow environmental catastrophes happening... and don't do something about it even though they have expertise and access to facts much more than the average Joe...

However, gaining length whilst sunset is near:

You may criticize others for their hypocrisy but it's not helping.

Personally I choose to have respect for those who are still willing to stand up for their civil and human rights (peacefully) and demonstrate that this movement is still alive.

I rather show support for them, than for powerless politicians who kiss lobbyists ass.

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 24th Dec 2009
Ummm yea, electric motorcycles. Not sexy ATM but we could turn the whole issue over to the marketing and fashion people and get them to redefine cool, the new cool, as zipping around on a techno ride in a silver jumpsuit. it would be huge in Japan methinks.

I owned an Yamaha XJ 750, nice bike, went like stink, looked kinda cool in a scalloped tank, sitting upright kinda way but did that thing ever sound awful ! Weeeeeeeeeeee, like something out of the movie Tron. Even with an aftermarket header on the thing, it still sounded bizarre and the mechanics told me it was "gear whine"

Anyways.

Quote:You may criticize others for their hypocrisy but it's not helping.

Maybe, maybe not.

If people are unwilling to acknowledge that their lifestyles are part of the problem, that's one thing but if those who advocate for change are themselves unwilling to make those admissions and advocate for a political approach to ACC, then that's a whole 'nother ball o' wax.

What are our alternatives? Willingly adjust our lifestyles or bitch that "somebody should do something" and when somebody does do something, bitch about how that those something(s) are "costing us" ?

Take a simple example..federal regulations on personal automobile fuel consumption. Do we want to demand that the government outlaw larger vehicles and thereby take that choice away from us or would we rather make something "socially unacceptable" and have people give up large vehicles willingly?

Like happened with the Hummer...

Isn't Germany set to build a whole bunch of coal fired power plants in the near future, seeing as how they're closing down nuclear reactors ?

Posted: 25th Dec 2009
Ironically a coal power plant with the right technology installed might be cleaner than a nuclear won...

Originally Posted By: StoutWhat are our alternatives? Willingly adjust our lifestyles or bitch that "somebody should do something" and when somebody does do something, bitch about how that those something(s) are "costing us" ?

Aint that exactly what's happening? People do something but we don't agree with what they do, so we complain about them doing the wrong thing, when at the same time we do something we "know" is the wrong thing... kind-a like in this one:

[add]this is exactly that, what I am going on about also in the "Veg for Cchange" thread: people who are willingly changing their lifestyles should do that without turning it into a religious dogma à la "if you're NOT doing as I am, then you're stoopid and it's not going to make that (required) change..." Everyone to their capacity... as long as we/ they show that they are willing, that's a good step.





Originally Posted By: StoutIf people are unwilling to acknowledge that their lifestyles are part of the problem, that's one thing but if those who advocate for change are themselves unwilling to make those admissions and advocate for a political approach to ACC, then that's a whole 'nother ball o' wax.

Did I miss the part where you were advocating for change? Or did I say that about my own lifestyle?

However: One thing I do remember quote clearly is that the car industry in Germany was strongly opposing unleaded fuel, saying that the engines would definitely suffer damage - when at the same time they've been exporting cars running unleaded to California for years already ... Until been forced by the government after massive protest from environmental groups, they implemented - quite quickly...

I don't hold the ultimate solution of all this... only trying to keep up a positive attitude, watching everydays menace... errm madness that is... sort of succeeding... maybe not... depends on how you look at it at least with one eye closed or blinded or both...

happy x-mas

[add] some in the EU are seriously considering to implement a CO² added import tax on goods to reflect on their environmental impact. It's opposed by lobbyists and thus by some politicians (still) - IMO this would be a good thing... along with taxing the exportation of jobs to 3rd world countries, be it in form of (old and dirty) technology or shifting workforce.

Capitalism is the worst of all systems when it comes to respect nature and upholding quaint humanitarian values... it needs regulation and the only ones opposing that are either those who directly profit, those who expect to or those who left their brains at the cloak... the rest keeps either screenbangin' or sloganshouting outside G7/8/32/365/***-conference centers...


EDITED_BY: FireTom (1261737412)
EDIT_REASON: why not?

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 25th Dec 2009
Quote:Ironically a coal power plant with the right technology installed might be cleaner than a nuclear won...

it might be, it all depends on how we deal with all that carbon we're dredging up from the bowels of the Earth. Local environmentalist guy who flew to Copenhagen is a "save the trees" guy and his position is that old growth trees not only store carbon, but when their harvested and made into long term goods like furniture, they continue to lock up that carbon.

True to a point but it hinges on the assumption that wood will be around 'forever" and discounts the possibility that this wood is going to be eventually discarded to either rot or burn, releasing all that stored carbon into the atmosphere. It's a rather short sighted approach, like storing nuclear waste in those giant swimming pools.


Quote:this is exactly that, what I am going on about also in the "Veg for Cchange" thread: people who are willingly changing their lifestyles should do that without turning it into a religious dogma à la "if you're NOT doing as I am, then you're stoopid and it's not going to make that (required) change..." Everyone to their capacity... as long as we/ they show that they are willing, that's a good step.
I agree. going veg is just ONE thing you can do though. I haven't done it, but due to that thread I'm eating waaaaay more chicken.

Quote:Did I miss the part where you were advocating for change?

I'm advocating for change through awareness, specifically targeting those activists who feel that their ideology outweighs their personal contribution to ACC.

I remember all that fuss about leaded gas. IMO it was a no brainer really, industry was being stupid. In continuing with the lead in the environment theme, I also remember the fuss about lead shot in shotguns. Hunter fires a round of pellets, misses, or only hits the bird with a few, the remaining pellets end up in the marsh, trumpeter swan eats those pellets while scouring the bottom of the marsh for food, swan gets lead poisoning.

Hunters squawked like banshees about how steel shot will damage their shotguns, kvetched and moaned, but the gov't said, suck it up and banned it anyway. Good move. Now we're facing similar issues with lead sinkers and fishers. They're whining about the increased cost of alternative weights but i highly suspect the environment is going to win again.

ACC is different though, instead of affecting specific groups, it affects nearly everyone on the planet. It's not enough to dump "the blame" on government and industry only without looking at ( and acknowledging) the role we as consumers play in creating the demand for the processes that are giving us ACC.

Quote:some in the EU are seriously considering to implement a CO² added import tax on goods to reflect on their environmental impact
Yes, good idea. I try to buy local whenever I can eg. wine. We already have this thing called a "carbon tax" on fuels, and an "eco fee' on products like spray paint. Dunno if it's helping though.

Quote:Capitalism is the worst of all systems when it comes to respect nature and upholding quaint humanitarian values...

Maybe...but I remember listening to many Germans complain about the toxic wasteland they'd inherited when Germany was reunified.

Merry Christmas

Off to ingest 10 000 calories.

Posted: 26th Dec 2009
that toxic wasteland (ironically) was - by some fair share - created by Germans, exporting their toxic waste there, when it was still socialist... Environmentalists have (unsuccessfully) complained about it an entire decade before the reunification.

Germany too is capitalist... although "social capitalist" - has not necessarily much to do with the environmental movement.

Red meat is not even 0.5% of my carnivore diet... meat itself only makes 10% of my entire intake. I do intercontinental travels... just I don't have to do any heating and just ride a motorbike... I even avoid Chinese food wherever possible I plant treesyaddayaddayadda... are we back to justifying our individual actions?

What I don't support is the fingerpointing at other people, claiming that their contributing actions are the wrong ones (apart from the obvious madness).

Point being is that the informations and predictions have been around for ages and accessible especially to an elite - which chose to ignore it. Maximizing profits is still the big slogan. Ozone layer depletion? Not too bad, so we can sell more sunscreen... that's not a joke but sad reality...

And this attitude is what activists try to change. And they feel that they need to bring more awareness and do something "more" as not having to just shrug off the (unasked) questions of their grandchildren... They do the best they can at this given time... as the rest of us.

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 26th Dec 2009
Tom, I find it difficult to believe you are serious. Perhaps you are just trying to wind people up

Quote:...I plant treesyaddayaddayadda... are we back to justifying our individual actions?...

Ozone layer depletion? Not too bad, so we can sell more sunscreen... that's not a joke but sad reality...

The sad reality according to Einstein in one of his more religious moments:

'A human being is part of a whole, called by us the “Universe” —a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts, and feelings, as something separated from the rest—a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness'.

This very basic distinction — or delusion — of there being an inner world and an outer world is so fundamental, that we rarely question it.

EDITED_BY: Stone (1261827289)

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 26th Dec 2009
Not sure what you're referring to. My remark regarding the ozone layer depletion and increased sales of sunscreen was told to a friend of mine by a CEO who attended a meeting of the world bank some 15 years back.

Could come across as a wind-up merchant - but the fact is that some people are so eager to find a good thing (for themselves), they would rather start selling gas masks in the CBD than introducing enhanced soot filter into delivery trucks.

And exactly this is why pressure needs to be put on governments.

The German reunification and toxic waste suddenly being back into our very own borders is a perfect example (btw: ever checked where exactly the French are building the majority of their nuclear power plants? on a sidenote: In Europe the wind usually comes from West *cough* )

So we're making regulations to protect the envorinment... industry exports their dirty production to countries where is no regulation and keeps producing with the same if not enhanced pace... guess why China now is the largest emitter on the planet? And India is on 4th...

I like that Einstein quote... now the question is why nature created us in such way and whether only humans suffer from this "delusion"... on that

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 26th Dec 2009
Originally Posted By: FireTomthat toxic wasteland (ironically) was - by some fair share - created by Germans, exporting their toxic waste there, when it was still socialist

Fair enough, I was unaware of that thinking that environment was rather low on the Communists list of priorities. Maybe it was given that they accepted the waste.

Quote:What I don't support is the fingerpointing at other people, claiming that their contributing actions are the wrong ones

I'll admit the personal responsibility angle is a rather right wing approach. I can see the appeal of avoiding it.

Quote: are we back to justifying our individual actions

No, not on this thread we've BTDT. If I wanted to I could justify my upcoming vacation. I could do it with a straight face. I might throw up a little as I'm writing it knowing it's a bunch of cowspoo in the grand scheme of things but I can still come out smelling like a rose.


Quote:Point being is that the informations and predictions have been around for ages and accessible especially to an elite

As well as being accessible to the common folk who IMO are somewhat hesitant to act on a personal level unless there's something in it for them, usually social status as a "greenie"

Quote:Ozone layer depletion?

Yes, an easy fix. Nobody had to give up much of anything. There was zero impact on anyone's lifestyle when CFCs were banned. I didn't notice anything, did you ? I do wonder what the contribution of the dry cleaning industry is to this problem, I'll look into it but since I don't have anything that requires dry cleaning ( yes, I'm a slob )

Quote:And this attitude is what activists try to change.

Yes, however they spend very little time trying to change our habits as consumers. I wonder why.....?

Posted: 26th Dec 2009
Tom, excellent post. Though, I think you should warn the sun block CEO from the World Bank about the real danger of melanoma and other skin cancers.

I think I mentioned previously that some Governments are starting to put pressure on business to clean up their acts. An example of this is the US environment watchdog moving to fight climate change. However, I think the development of so-called Clean Coal technology is a bit of a misnomer propagated by the coal rich countries like Australian and others. And is just bending to the pressures of the energy industry. Not many Australians believe that Clean Coal technology is viable, or that carbon dioxide will stay sequestered in the ground long term or even short term for that matter.

Quote:I like that Einstein quote... now the question is why nature created us in such way and whether only humans suffer from this "delusion"... on that

I’m glad you said nature created us Our big brain is the result of evolution, so we are not restricted by a primitive ‘reptilian’ brain as are other animals. Unfortunately, most of us human beings are still locked into reactive thinking and survival mode because we let our primitive brain drive our thinking process. Once we can overcome this survival process we can gain free will and make rational decisions, like not killing each due to unfounded fears of others or stuffing up the planet because of greed.

All the best for the New Year.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 28th Dec 2009
Stout: the environmental problems inherited have been devastating. The entire process cost about 171,8 billion Euro till date and you should look at Germany as a Federal Republic with individual countries that is only politically and financially unified when it comes to deal on the international platform. It's not quite same-same as the US but in some respects it is.

Point I'm trying to make is that the AJoe is quite entangled in making a living and paying taxes. With this money also a government gets paid... they should just do their job and keep the show running well for the future of our grandchildren as well.

Stone: I assume you haven't worked on a higher level in corporate management... there is no "real danger" (that you cannot make a fortune with).

Higher mortality rates will make more people sign for life insurances, healthcare plans, make them buy sunblockers and appropriate clothing. On the corporate level, those survive who can turn a loss into a win... profit is the overlord.

Yet: even the Munich Re (an insurance company that insures the insurance companies) demands governments to take action. (note "governments") According to their data from 1980 till date, the losses resulting from natural catastrophes caused from weather (and climate having a significant part in this) level up to 1600 billion US$.

Still Munich Re's business last year only declined by ~6%... so it is more about "adjustment"...

Please do not mistake political agenda with propaganda. I'm not questioning Mr. Obama's personal attitude towards preserving the environment but how much actually lies within his power to make a change really happening.



to an even better new year

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 28th Dec 2009
Quote:Point I'm trying to make is that the AJoe is quite entangled in making a living and paying taxes. With this money also a government gets paid... they should just do their job and keep the show running well for the future of our grandchildren as well.

So then who should convince AJoe that purchasing that smaller car might be a better idea that purchasing that monster SUV? That AJ should make that choice willingly rather than demanding his government make the choice for him.

Have you gone Marxist? Just curious, because the anti-war guy featured in the video you posted (Mike Prizner) is a Marxist and if you're advocating that big government is the only solution then you must know how tough a sell that's going to be..in the long run.

Posted: 29th Dec 2009
Have you seen Amelie (the movie)? There is one sentence that (though I pose to be that fool often enough) left a deep imprint on me: "Only a fool stares at the finger, rather than at what it points at."

Mike Prizner's political views are not my concerns. The words he uses to describe what wars have always been and always will be based on, are the truth (at least to me). I live most of my time in countries that are not my native one and I only meet human beings - whose language and concepts and politics I only start to remotely understand now - after 20 years of traveling.

They love their children too.

I side you that AJoe should make the choice willingly rather than forcing it on him. But we do live in a society that claims the "freedom" to come up with the most ridiculous temptations on every occasion.

This government takes the choice of going to war pretty much without him. Not sure, did the last president of the US consult the American public on "enhanced interrogation techniques"? Guess not. He waged psychological warfare against his very own people... and it's still going on.

If a government truly believes that you are in any way endangering its continuation, you reckon they sit in the comfort of their homes and sign petitions online? They pretty much come knocking at your door - and if deemed necessary they will pump you so full of lead you won't even have time to say "excessive force" or "sinker"...

Ever thought that these activists truly believe those who got access to reliable information are telling lies as long as it serves their interest? And that these lies and interests are endangering our health, current and future generations?

It's within an individuals democratic right to buy a plane ticket and demonstrate ... the way democratic governments respond to this should give you a remainder of how much of a democracy you're really living in...

Maybe that is the entire story behind all this

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 30th Dec 2009
Oh yea I've seem Amelie, it's one of my all time favourite movies. The fool may be staring at the finger, yet the "fool" may be staring at who the finger is attached to as well.

So you haven't got Marxist then. good, I was getting worried there. That POV opens up a whole different ideological can of worms.

Quote:But we do live in a society that claims the "freedom" to come up with the most ridiculous temptations on every occasion.

Yes, this is true and maybe we, as a society, should look at rejecting some of those temptations. We've done it with cigarettes.

Quote:He waged psychological warfare against his very own people... and it's still going on.

I won't dispute this at all.

Quote:They pretty much come knocking at your door

Yes, this is also true. Locally we're having the owelympics early next year and "protesters" have been complaining that the police have been "checking them out" wondering what kind of actions they're going to take. Nobody's been pumped full of lead, nobody's been thrown in jail but there have been a few questionable incidents by protesters that have NOT endeared them to the public.

IMO Copenhagen was one of those events that didn't Need protesting. This was a good thing no? World leaders getting together to discuss "the problem". Why go protest, especially if it requires flying half way 'round the world. I'm thinking it was more of a quest for street cred, a bee seen kind of thing.

Quote:Ever thought that these activists truly believe those who got access to reliable information are telling lies as long as it serves their interest

No, not in this case. All the revlaent information is freely available for anyone to come up with their own conclusions that ACC is indeed very real and that digging up fossil fuels and burning them "for the heck of it" probably isn't a good idea.

Granted, the science of ACC is horribly complicated but the basic gist is pretty simple.

Quote:It's within an individuals democratic right to buy a plane ticket and demonstrate

Yes it is, but in this case it's also highly ironic. Doing this to protest G20 I could maybe see although I highly doubt there'd be a shortage of local protesters making these international types rather redundant.

Posted: 31st Dec 2009
To further belabour the point...

I came across this letter in our local weekly progressive weekly, written by an anti poverty activist.

Quote:Re: “Danish hopes dashed,” Dec. 24-30

If the 100,000 plus citizens who comprised Copenhagen’s “Peoples’ Summit,” those marching peacefully (and being arrested for it) were to have agreed to simplify their lifestyles, then it’s not a complete loss. Did they, perhaps, agree to quit drinking coffee? Quit oppressing animals and the earth and instead go vegan? Sell their cars and ride bicycles and public transit instead? Lobby their municipal governments to turn down the Christmas lights? If they crafted any such agreement, even in their individual minds, then the conference was not a complete waste.

Many of us environmentalists, who live simply so that others may simply live, gave up waiting for the politicos long ago. We just gotta do it ourselves! When the people lead, maybe the leaders will follow. Maybe not. But one of the only powers we have, under capitalism, is the law of supply and demand. Buy local. Buy organic. Plant gardens. Use less energy. If the hearts and minds of a portion of the 7 billion would only embrace the idea of systemic adjustment and be the change they wish to see in the world, then Copenhagen won’t have been a colossal waste of carbon and time.

Janine Bandcroft, Victoria


linky

Posted: 11th Jan 2010
Hey Janine, only because you're scared of airplanes doesn't mean that them activists in Copenhagen did not already meet some or all your suggestions.

Stout - does "divide and rule" ring a bell with you? I'd guess those who hold influential positions in the media are the best assistants for the system...

happy new year btw.
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1263230154)
EDIT_REASON: wrong drink

the best smiles are the ones you lead to