Forums > Social Discussion > Do Faith Healers/Pray actually work?
Login/Join to ParticipateMaster of Mediocrity
25 posts
Location: St Kilda, Australia
25 posts
Location: St Kilda, Australia
Posted:
From what I understand; and if I am wrong or misinterpreting then by all means please correct me. "God" has a plan for us, since "God" knows all and our future is in "God"'s hand. Then, wouldn't that imply that "God" has already decided when and how we will die and such. So, if you have some disease and go to one of the TV Evangelists and are "cured" hadn't "God" already decided that you would be cured and you could have stayed home and being watching TV and still would be cured?. I find it hard to believe that if God had decided that you would die at such and such day that if you suddenly prayed or other people prayed for you or if you went to some faith healer that "God" would be like "Well, Bill was going to die a week from now, but gosh, he went and saw Pat Robertson, and now I have to let him live for many years". Now, I don't just mean the Christian God, I mean any God, whether you call it Ra, Zeus, Odin, Allah, Shiva. Who ever, All I know is that ever since Britney Spears first appeared as a Solo Artist I have been praying that she would walk thru my door and that hasn't happened. I believe the quote from Anchorman sums up prayer: [unveiling the Sex Panther] No, she gets a special cologne... It's called Sex Panther by Odeon. It's illegal in nine countries... Yep, it's made with bits of real panther, so you know it's good. [...] They've done studies, you know. Sixty percent of the time, it works every time.
Now, replace Sex Panther with prayer. So, i dunno, what do ya'll think
cheers
ry
From what I understand; and if I am wrong or misinterpreting then by all means please correct me. "God" has a plan for us, since "God" knows all and our future is in "God"'s hand. Then, wouldn't that imply that "God" has already decided when and how we will die and such. So, if you have some disease and go to one of the TV Evangelists and are "cured" hadn't "God" already decided that you would be cured and you could have stayed home and being watching TV and still would be cured?. I find it hard to believe that if God had decided that you would die at such and such day that if you suddenly prayed or other people prayed for you or if you went to some faith healer that "God" would be like "Well, Bill was going to die a week from now, but gosh, he went and saw Pat Robertson, and now I have to let him live for many years". Now, I don't just mean the Christian God, I mean any God, whether you call it Ra, Zeus, Odin, Allah, Shiva. Who ever, All I know is that ever since Britney Spears first appeared as a Solo Artist I have been praying that she would walk thru my door and that hasn't happened. I believe the quote from Anchorman sums up prayer: [unveiling the Sex Panther] No, she gets a special cologne... It's called Sex Panther by Odeon. It's illegal in nine countries... Yep, it's made with bits of real panther, so you know it's good. [...] They've done studies, you know. Sixty percent of the time, it works every time.
Now, replace Sex Panther with prayer. So, i dunno, what do ya'll think
cheers
ry
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
"God" is just a three letter word - maybe first you should find out for yourself what U're connecting with this combination?
Only what I can tell you from my experience is that "spontaneous healing" can (and does) take place - I experienced it myself and on many others.
Ppl most certainly die one day - at least their physical bodies. In the meantime you can either sit back, relax and enjoy the ride, feel safe and secure - or you can frantically run around and panick. This depends on your personal setup and situation.
You could become a reknown agent or actively DO a prayer (as in "actions") in order to heighten the likelihood that Britney knocks your door eventually... but why would you want this anyway? Just to lay your hands on her? Maybe she (or maybe YOU) don't deserve this to happen?
As I see it, the universe is operating according to its own laws and not necessarily to what you want (in that particular moment). Maybe Britney will walk through your door one day... when she's 68. Would you sill be happy?
So maybe starting with your own actions makes it much easier than with trying to understand how "god" works...
However you got my blessings for being with Britney - hope you'll be able to keep up with her.
"God" is just a three letter word - maybe first you should find out for yourself what U're connecting with this combination?
Only what I can tell you from my experience is that "spontaneous healing" can (and does) take place - I experienced it myself and on many others.
Ppl most certainly die one day - at least their physical bodies. In the meantime you can either sit back, relax and enjoy the ride, feel safe and secure - or you can frantically run around and panick. This depends on your personal setup and situation.
You could become a reknown agent or actively DO a prayer (as in "actions") in order to heighten the likelihood that Britney knocks your door eventually... but why would you want this anyway? Just to lay your hands on her? Maybe she (or maybe YOU) don't deserve this to happen?
As I see it, the universe is operating according to its own laws and not necessarily to what you want (in that particular moment). Maybe Britney will walk through your door one day... when she's 68. Would you sill be happy?
So maybe starting with your own actions makes it much easier than with trying to understand how "god" works...
However you got my blessings for being with Britney - hope you'll be able to keep up with her.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
No
There's no evidence that faith healing or prayer "work" at all however they may be connected to the placebo effect that's still *mostly* not understood.
Quite often aliments go away on their own without any type of intervention.
If you think back to all the diseases that had the potential to kill you 200 years ago, and think about the millennia that people tried to treat these diseases using prayer/faith healing and compare the success rates to modern medicine, you'll get a pretty good picture of just how effective these spiritual methods actually were.
Have you ever been to Lourdes. France ? If not, it's the faith healing capital of the western world and they have this huge display of canes, crutches, walkers and wheelchairs meant to serve as proof (inspiration?) that the place works to heal the crippled.
Strangely enough....there's no wooden legs on display.
No
There's no evidence that faith healing or prayer "work" at all however they may be connected to the placebo effect that's still *mostly* not understood.
Quite often aliments go away on their own without any type of intervention.
If you think back to all the diseases that had the potential to kill you 200 years ago, and think about the millennia that people tried to treat these diseases using prayer/faith healing and compare the success rates to modern medicine, you'll get a pretty good picture of just how effective these spiritual methods actually were.
Have you ever been to Lourdes. France ? If not, it's the faith healing capital of the western world and they have this huge display of canes, crutches, walkers and wheelchairs meant to serve as proof (inspiration?) that the place works to heal the crippled.
Strangely enough....there's no wooden legs on display.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Wow, what a nice, safe, non-controversial topic you've picked!
Sorry, boys. I'm sitting this one out.
Wow, what a nice, safe, non-controversial topic you've picked!
Sorry, boys. I'm sitting this one out.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
How come Doc ?
Thinking about becoming a faith healer?
How come Doc ?
Thinking about becoming a faith healer?
journeyman
99 posts
Location: canada
99 posts
Location: canada
Posted:
it certainly works to fatten the bank accounts of lots of individuals. I think their is certainly some truth that our minds can affect reality, but I think people really need to be suspicious of anyone who runs a business faith healing.
it certainly works to fatten the bank accounts of lots of individuals. I think their is certainly some truth that our minds can affect reality, but I think people really need to be suspicious of anyone who runs a business faith healing.
The less people know the more they believe
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
My sister is a member of one of those "faith healing" churches. I've been to one of thier, ummm, healings (not by choice. I went to a play there to see my bro-in-law play Satan, cause I think he is, and it ended with this crazy healing revival they tried to make us take part in).
The people of her church have blind faith..of an insane degree.
They still hurt. They still die. They still go through lifes pains. They pray and pray. They go to the healings. They still pay their tithings and follow their book.
It hasn't saved, healed or spared any of them.
However, I am not discounting odd healing, spontaneous healing, any of that. My gran, at 92, had cancer over the summer and now...it's gone. Just gone.
It's a complete mystery, and while the religious part of my family will say it's the power of their prayers, while the pagan side of my family will say it's the spells, I just say it's a mystery and one I gladly accept.
My sister is a member of one of those "faith healing" churches. I've been to one of thier, ummm, healings (not by choice. I went to a play there to see my bro-in-law play Satan, cause I think he is, and it ended with this crazy healing revival they tried to make us take part in).
The people of her church have blind faith..of an insane degree.
They still hurt. They still die. They still go through lifes pains. They pray and pray. They go to the healings. They still pay their tithings and follow their book.
It hasn't saved, healed or spared any of them.
However, I am not discounting odd healing, spontaneous healing, any of that. My gran, at 92, had cancer over the summer and now...it's gone. Just gone.
It's a complete mystery, and while the religious part of my family will say it's the power of their prayers, while the pagan side of my family will say it's the spells, I just say it's a mystery and one I gladly accept.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
I had a really funny incident when i was a child, around ten. My mom was gone for the weekend,, and it was just us kids, my older bro, age 12, me, and a younger brother age 8ish. All of a sudden, on friday night, people started calling us, weeping hysterically, asking if we would pray for them. It was totally startling, and weird. I mean, what do you say? I wasnt particularly religious at all but didnt have the heart to say no to crying people with southern us accents... this went on all weekend, people calling us, asking for prayers. Depending which of us they got, they got completly different responses-- i always said yes, younger brother usually hung up, and the older brother, had the best response. He just adopted a southern accent himself, and said" Yea, sister of my spirit, I will gladly pray for you, just send 14.95 cash cheque or money order to me, at Church of the West Banks"( that is where we lived...) By the end of the weekend, he developed this hilarious spiel he would go into, and we couldnt wait for more calls, it was brilliant theatre...
When mom got back we discovered that some religious tv evangelical dude had accidently put our phone number on TV after his healing session on television... lol
It was toooo funny. My mom was FURIOUS!
I still wonder if those people felt their prayers answered?
*** Seriously, I know that prayer and faith healing can work. I dont see it as a separate thing from placebo effect necessarily-- it is just obvious to me that our belief systems and states of mind profoundly impact our well being, and ability to heal. There are many scientifically demonstrated examples of this.
I think the trouble comes from when people expect it to be consistent, under all circumstances-- when there are so many factors in play we can not begin to understand which of them is to have the dominant influence, or how they will all fit together to a particular outcome. Personally, i see it as little or nothing to do with God per se. It is just humans,energy flow, and all the hormone and chemical changes that are triggered by our minds, and visa versa( hormones and chemical reactions causing differnt states of mind, or health...)
To me it is complete arrogance to claim we know how these things all work, or do not work-- faith and belief and attitude and meditation and and and... as Pele said, they remain some of the Mysteries we have yet to fully explore. Will we ever be able to map out the causal relationships ? Maybe one day. But to those that feel better, taken care of, loved, protected, nurtured by the process, they dont need any validation outside of their own experience.
I have an aunt that has been invited into many hospital to work with the sick and injured doing "laying on of hands" energy healing. The nurses, all have observed the benefical effects of it in their patients, that is why she is recommended. Who knows if it is the touch, the "energy", the hope, the pleasure of her company,or an external force such as "God", but somehow, the people do feel better after her visits. So we all just respect it on that level.
A key point being, she asks for, and takes, no money or gifts or anything at all from the people she works with. It is not profit based at all. Nor does she profess to a particular religious denominational belief, or require that her patients have one. It is a simple human sharing, and kindness. Maybe being loved , even by a stranger, simply feels good.?! That is not something to be underestimated as a healing influence.
I am really disturbed by the evangelical healing folk who are always hitting people up for money by fear and manipulation. They are disgusting, and i am always surprised that people get sucked into that!
I had a really funny incident when i was a child, around ten. My mom was gone for the weekend,, and it was just us kids, my older bro, age 12, me, and a younger brother age 8ish. All of a sudden, on friday night, people started calling us, weeping hysterically, asking if we would pray for them. It was totally startling, and weird. I mean, what do you say? I wasnt particularly religious at all but didnt have the heart to say no to crying people with southern us accents... this went on all weekend, people calling us, asking for prayers. Depending which of us they got, they got completly different responses-- i always said yes, younger brother usually hung up, and the older brother, had the best response. He just adopted a southern accent himself, and said" Yea, sister of my spirit, I will gladly pray for you, just send 14.95 cash cheque or money order to me, at Church of the West Banks"( that is where we lived...) By the end of the weekend, he developed this hilarious spiel he would go into, and we couldnt wait for more calls, it was brilliant theatre...
When mom got back we discovered that some religious tv evangelical dude had accidently put our phone number on TV after his healing session on television... lol
It was toooo funny. My mom was FURIOUS!
I still wonder if those people felt their prayers answered?
*** Seriously, I know that prayer and faith healing can work. I dont see it as a separate thing from placebo effect necessarily-- it is just obvious to me that our belief systems and states of mind profoundly impact our well being, and ability to heal. There are many scientifically demonstrated examples of this.
I think the trouble comes from when people expect it to be consistent, under all circumstances-- when there are so many factors in play we can not begin to understand which of them is to have the dominant influence, or how they will all fit together to a particular outcome. Personally, i see it as little or nothing to do with God per se. It is just humans,energy flow, and all the hormone and chemical changes that are triggered by our minds, and visa versa( hormones and chemical reactions causing differnt states of mind, or health...)
To me it is complete arrogance to claim we know how these things all work, or do not work-- faith and belief and attitude and meditation and and and... as Pele said, they remain some of the Mysteries we have yet to fully explore. Will we ever be able to map out the causal relationships ? Maybe one day. But to those that feel better, taken care of, loved, protected, nurtured by the process, they dont need any validation outside of their own experience.
I have an aunt that has been invited into many hospital to work with the sick and injured doing "laying on of hands" energy healing. The nurses, all have observed the benefical effects of it in their patients, that is why she is recommended. Who knows if it is the touch, the "energy", the hope, the pleasure of her company,or an external force such as "God", but somehow, the people do feel better after her visits. So we all just respect it on that level.
A key point being, she asks for, and takes, no money or gifts or anything at all from the people she works with. It is not profit based at all. Nor does she profess to a particular religious denominational belief, or require that her patients have one. It is a simple human sharing, and kindness. Maybe being loved , even by a stranger, simply feels good.?! That is not something to be underestimated as a healing influence.
I am really disturbed by the evangelical healing folk who are always hitting people up for money by fear and manipulation. They are disgusting, and i am always surprised that people get sucked into that!
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
SILVER Member
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Posted:
Along with Doc I'll sit this one out... I don't even especially care to read all the posts already here because my opinion is formed already and I don't really believe I should try to influence other peoples opinion on the matter, if thats something to take solace in I wouldn't take that away from them.
Why bother to make a post, then? Just to offer one story...
Someone close to me lost their grandfather because he refused medical treatment for the condition that was killing him. Her grandmother said that it was his fault for not having enough faith and if he had more faith he would live. Now her own life hangs in the balance and she too refuses medical treatment... now my friend will lose her grandmother as well
Along with Doc I'll sit this one out... I don't even especially care to read all the posts already here because my opinion is formed already and I don't really believe I should try to influence other peoples opinion on the matter, if thats something to take solace in I wouldn't take that away from them.
Why bother to make a post, then? Just to offer one story...
Someone close to me lost their grandfather because he refused medical treatment for the condition that was killing him. Her grandmother said that it was his fault for not having enough faith and if he had more faith he would live. Now her own life hangs in the balance and she too refuses medical treatment... now my friend will lose her grandmother as well
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_SonAlong with Doc I'll sit this one out... I don't even especially care to read all the posts already here because my opinion is formed already and I don't really believe I should try to influence other peoples opinion on the matter, if thats something to take solace in I wouldn't take that away from them.
Why bother to make a post, then? Just to offer one story...
Someone close to me lost their grandfather because he refused medical treatment for the condition that was killing him. Her grandmother said that it was his fault for not having enough faith and if he had more faith he would live. Now her own life hangs in the balance and she too refuses medical treatment... now my friend will lose her grandmother as well
Here's an analogous story-
Someone else's grandparent accepted medical treatment for the condition that was killing him/her and..... died regardless: it dies happen.
Now that's not to say people should refuse medical treatment- that's entirely their choice- it's for them to weigh up the pros and cons as they see them.
Why would someone refuse medical treatment? Well, before giving some possible reasons, let's understand that, it being their choice is what's really important here, cos, whatever the reasons are, it's going to be easy for others to say that they don't agree with the reasons, or that the reasoning is mistaken- nevertheless, it is their choice (assuming soundness of mind).
Possible reasons-
1. faith/religious belief
2. an understanding that we're all dying- elderly people in particular, tend to be more aware of this than many younger people- they're closer to dying than being born: they've undoubtably experienced several effects of getting old (infirmity, pain, disease etc) and often simply aren't as emotionally attached to life as they once were- they're prepared for the inevitable and perhaps more interested in being at peace with that than fighting against it
3. medical treatments can often involve invasive treatments and /or pain (e.g. many cancer treatments, surgery, chemotherapy etc) and they don't want that- they'd rather just live their life naturally (perhaps with some pain control drugs as necessary)
4. they mistrust modern medicine- being elderly (and therefore having been around a long time) it's almost certain that they have personal experience of friends/relatives who, they feel, did worse through accepting medical treatment- this could range from the extreme of actual medical negligence through to the common feeling that the medical profession tends not to listen to what their patients actually want.
That's just 4 reasons- there are many more: at the end of the day, the important thing isn't the reasons, but the absolute right of any individual to refuse treatment for any reason they choose (assuming they're sound-of-mind).
Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_SonAlong with Doc I'll sit this one out... I don't even especially care to read all the posts already here because my opinion is formed already and I don't really believe I should try to influence other peoples opinion on the matter, if thats something to take solace in I wouldn't take that away from them.
Why bother to make a post, then? Just to offer one story...
Someone close to me lost their grandfather because he refused medical treatment for the condition that was killing him. Her grandmother said that it was his fault for not having enough faith and if he had more faith he would live. Now her own life hangs in the balance and she too refuses medical treatment... now my friend will lose her grandmother as well
Here's an analogous story-
Someone else's grandparent accepted medical treatment for the condition that was killing him/her and..... died regardless: it dies happen.
Now that's not to say people should refuse medical treatment- that's entirely their choice- it's for them to weigh up the pros and cons as they see them.
Why would someone refuse medical treatment? Well, before giving some possible reasons, let's understand that, it being their choice is what's really important here, cos, whatever the reasons are, it's going to be easy for others to say that they don't agree with the reasons, or that the reasoning is mistaken- nevertheless, it is their choice (assuming soundness of mind).
Possible reasons-
1. faith/religious belief
2. an understanding that we're all dying- elderly people in particular, tend to be more aware of this than many younger people- they're closer to dying than being born: they've undoubtably experienced several effects of getting old (infirmity, pain, disease etc) and often simply aren't as emotionally attached to life as they once were- they're prepared for the inevitable and perhaps more interested in being at peace with that than fighting against it
3. medical treatments can often involve invasive treatments and /or pain (e.g. many cancer treatments, surgery, chemotherapy etc) and they don't want that- they'd rather just live their life naturally (perhaps with some pain control drugs as necessary)
4. they mistrust modern medicine- being elderly (and therefore having been around a long time) it's almost certain that they have personal experience of friends/relatives who, they feel, did worse through accepting medical treatment- this could range from the extreme of actual medical negligence through to the common feeling that the medical profession tends not to listen to what their patients actually want.
That's just 4 reasons- there are many more: at the end of the day, the important thing isn't the reasons, but the absolute right of any individual to refuse treatment for any reason they choose (assuming they're sound-of-mind).
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Originally Posted By: PeleMy sister is a member of one of those "faith healing" churches. I've been to one of thier, ummm, healings (not by choice. I went to a play there to see my bro-in-law play Satan, cause I think he is, and it ended with this crazy healing revival they tried to make us take part in).
The people of her church have blind faith..of an insane degree.
They still hurt. They still die. They still go through lifes pains. They pray and pray. They go to the healings. They still pay their tithings and follow their book.
It hasn't saved, healed or spared any of them.
However, I am not discounting odd healing, spontaneous healing, any of that. My gran, at 92, had cancer over the summer and now...it's gone. Just gone.
It's a complete mystery, and while the religious part of my family will say it's the power of their prayers, while the pagan side of my family will say it's the spells, I just say it's a mystery and one I gladly accept.
Pele- I have an interest in these things- I wonder if you'd be happy to post more details?
If you don't want to, that's understandable and fine by me, but, if you're willing, i'd be interested in knowing-
1. what type of cancer it was
2. was there any recorded medical data of the cancer e.g. x-rays
3. did she have any medical treatment for the cancer
4. did she have any alternative 'treatments' (other than the prayers of churchgoers and pagan spells you mentioned)
5. did the medical staff give any opinion as to what had happened (eg sponaneous remission)
6. what does your gran think happened to the cancer?
Originally Posted By: PeleMy sister is a member of one of those "faith healing" churches. I've been to one of thier, ummm, healings (not by choice. I went to a play there to see my bro-in-law play Satan, cause I think he is, and it ended with this crazy healing revival they tried to make us take part in).
The people of her church have blind faith..of an insane degree.
They still hurt. They still die. They still go through lifes pains. They pray and pray. They go to the healings. They still pay their tithings and follow their book.
It hasn't saved, healed or spared any of them.
However, I am not discounting odd healing, spontaneous healing, any of that. My gran, at 92, had cancer over the summer and now...it's gone. Just gone.
It's a complete mystery, and while the religious part of my family will say it's the power of their prayers, while the pagan side of my family will say it's the spells, I just say it's a mystery and one I gladly accept.
Pele- I have an interest in these things- I wonder if you'd be happy to post more details?
If you don't want to, that's understandable and fine by me, but, if you're willing, i'd be interested in knowing-
1. what type of cancer it was
2. was there any recorded medical data of the cancer e.g. x-rays
3. did she have any medical treatment for the cancer
4. did she have any alternative 'treatments' (other than the prayers of churchgoers and pagan spells you mentioned)
5. did the medical staff give any opinion as to what had happened (eg sponaneous remission)
6. what does your gran think happened to the cancer?
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
BRONZE Member
Keeper of the Secret Fire
9 posts
Location: Oakland, CA, USA
Keeper of the Secret Fire
9 posts
Location: Oakland, CA, USA
Posted:
All right, I don't mean to walk into an argument, my personal opinion is already well formed and I respect you all too much, to just push my beliefs off on you, trying to convert anyone one or change your mind. So, please realize I come in peace
That said, I believe in energetic healing. Personally, I like Reiki and practice it. I like to think of Reiki energy as a form of life energy or chi that the mind/body/spirit uses to heal itself. I *don't* advocate energetic healing in place of modern medicine or practical first aid. Its just a nice meditative tool that you can always use along with trusted medicine.
Spinning and Dance are close to martial arts, I'm sure that practicing Poi has increased my personal chi. I've seen masters use personal chi with powerful martial arts moves and effects. I'm no master, but I use chi for an easier performance. When I get a first degree burn (redness) I use both reiki and first aid, usually I'm back to practicing fire again (healed) faster that way. I've also made headaches go away and healed faster from other small injuries with the aid of reiki.
Others have claimed "clinical trials and proof" in various hospitals--usually these are just somewhat more believable anecdotes. I'd like to see some more real studies, maybe with the help of some Bhuddist monks.
As a stage magician I can tell you that way too many faith healers in the churches or on TV are charlatans, using gimmicks that often date back to the original wild west traveling revivals that set up alongside or as an alternative to other traveling shows of that era.
Others have theories kinda like mine (or different, but equal) and are honestly trying to use the power of prayer/energy/god to perform old time gospel miracles.
I know at least one guy (The Reiki Master who did my Becca's attunement) who is staying alive despite AIDS with the combo of Reiki and traditional western medicine. Neither idea seemed 100% so he tried both and it seems to have worked out for him.(He's still alive years later now.) So I guess my point is don't ignore traditional medicine for the sole use of energetic healing. One does not have exclude the other. Energetic healing is just another alternative,secondary treatment to add to a list of treatments. Any responsible Reiki Master (including me) will tell you to see a real doctor too.
Likewise anytime hypnotherapy is used for any kind of healing or pain relief by a responsible hypnotist, they will ask for a note from your primary care physician, before they will hypnotize you.
Houdini died of a ruptured appendix, because he took a stomach punch from a strong man as stunt the wrong way and hypnotized himself to deal with the pain,(the show must go on) instead of going to the hospital.
Just my opinions and a little info, if any one can help out me out with some good sources that would be great.
All right, I don't mean to walk into an argument, my personal opinion is already well formed and I respect you all too much, to just push my beliefs off on you, trying to convert anyone one or change your mind. So, please realize I come in peace
That said, I believe in energetic healing. Personally, I like Reiki and practice it. I like to think of Reiki energy as a form of life energy or chi that the mind/body/spirit uses to heal itself. I *don't* advocate energetic healing in place of modern medicine or practical first aid. Its just a nice meditative tool that you can always use along with trusted medicine.
Spinning and Dance are close to martial arts, I'm sure that practicing Poi has increased my personal chi. I've seen masters use personal chi with powerful martial arts moves and effects. I'm no master, but I use chi for an easier performance. When I get a first degree burn (redness) I use both reiki and first aid, usually I'm back to practicing fire again (healed) faster that way. I've also made headaches go away and healed faster from other small injuries with the aid of reiki.
Others have claimed "clinical trials and proof" in various hospitals--usually these are just somewhat more believable anecdotes. I'd like to see some more real studies, maybe with the help of some Bhuddist monks.
As a stage magician I can tell you that way too many faith healers in the churches or on TV are charlatans, using gimmicks that often date back to the original wild west traveling revivals that set up alongside or as an alternative to other traveling shows of that era.
Others have theories kinda like mine (or different, but equal) and are honestly trying to use the power of prayer/energy/god to perform old time gospel miracles.
I know at least one guy (The Reiki Master who did my Becca's attunement) who is staying alive despite AIDS with the combo of Reiki and traditional western medicine. Neither idea seemed 100% so he tried both and it seems to have worked out for him.(He's still alive years later now.) So I guess my point is don't ignore traditional medicine for the sole use of energetic healing. One does not have exclude the other. Energetic healing is just another alternative,secondary treatment to add to a list of treatments. Any responsible Reiki Master (including me) will tell you to see a real doctor too.
Likewise anytime hypnotherapy is used for any kind of healing or pain relief by a responsible hypnotist, they will ask for a note from your primary care physician, before they will hypnotize you.
Houdini died of a ruptured appendix, because he took a stomach punch from a strong man as stunt the wrong way and hypnotized himself to deal with the pain,(the show must go on) instead of going to the hospital.
Just my opinions and a little info, if any one can help out me out with some good sources that would be great.
John Lennon
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
In Houdini's defense, it wasn't part of a stunt. It was part of a boast he put out to the public. The guy walked up, asked if he was Houdini and when Harry said yes, the man decked him, without warning for HH to prep himself. I've read many conflicting reports on whether or not he took pain meds in addition to the hypnosis, including some quotes from his wife.
The thing with the energy treatments is that they treat a symptom, not the problem.
I've had many, many reiki, massage, accupuncture treatments to alleviate pain to get me through a Ren day or performance. They've never healed me but they did help me get through the day without needing to drug myself up. I often wonder how much of that is psychosomatic, but at the end of the day, I didn't care as I viewed it as helpful.
I know two very incredible hypnotists and neither asks for doctors referrals. Both are certified psychiatrists, so that might have something to do with it as well.
Under this would also fall the visualization healing. I remember maybe a decade or so ago one tweenage boy who had a cancer. He was addicted to the video games of the time and when he would rest he would visualize his cancer as the "big bad" from his video game and after a few months his cancer was gone.
He was undergoing treatment so who knows if it was visualization or the treatment, or both?
I would love to see a study on people that like and trackable healing, with xrays and such. However, I would not want to subject people to being in it, because it would mean they would have to forgoe modern treatments, and potential cures, for the sake of understanding.
Since no one knows what might help, and I think all people should explore all options comfortable to them, I don't think I could run a study like that.
Quote:originally posted by: Onewheeldave
Pele- I have an interest in these things- I wonder if you'd be happy to post more details?
If you don't want to, that's understandable and fine by me, but, if you're willing, i'd be interested in knowing-
1. what type of cancer it was
2. was there any recorded medical data of the cancer e.g. x-rays
3. did she have any medical treatment for the cancer
4. did she have any alternative 'treatments' (other than the prayers of churchgoers and pagan spells you mentioned)
5. did the medical staff give any opinion as to what had happened (eg sponaneous remission)
6. what does your gran think happened to the cancer?
1. It started as ulcerative cancer of the esophogeal tracht and stomach, and then spread to her lymph nodes.
2. She's been scanned, tested, poked and prodded by several doctors, including in a really highly regarded cancer center, Roswell Cancer Center.
3. Chemo and Radiation. She went through 1 of the proposed 3 rounds.
4. No alternatives. In fact, she had such pain she stopped eating and drinking and ended up worse off in the hospital for dehydration.
5. They have no idea. They are stumped and offered no explanaitions.
6. Gran is 92. She has no idea. Nor does she even care to hypothesize. She's just happy to have it gone so she doesn't have to deal with that new fangled technology stuff anymore.
Feel free to ask away Dave. If I have to, I'll call and ask my gran for answers for ya
In Houdini's defense, it wasn't part of a stunt. It was part of a boast he put out to the public. The guy walked up, asked if he was Houdini and when Harry said yes, the man decked him, without warning for HH to prep himself. I've read many conflicting reports on whether or not he took pain meds in addition to the hypnosis, including some quotes from his wife.
The thing with the energy treatments is that they treat a symptom, not the problem.
I've had many, many reiki, massage, accupuncture treatments to alleviate pain to get me through a Ren day or performance. They've never healed me but they did help me get through the day without needing to drug myself up. I often wonder how much of that is psychosomatic, but at the end of the day, I didn't care as I viewed it as helpful.
I know two very incredible hypnotists and neither asks for doctors referrals. Both are certified psychiatrists, so that might have something to do with it as well.
Under this would also fall the visualization healing. I remember maybe a decade or so ago one tweenage boy who had a cancer. He was addicted to the video games of the time and when he would rest he would visualize his cancer as the "big bad" from his video game and after a few months his cancer was gone.
He was undergoing treatment so who knows if it was visualization or the treatment, or both?
I would love to see a study on people that like and trackable healing, with xrays and such. However, I would not want to subject people to being in it, because it would mean they would have to forgoe modern treatments, and potential cures, for the sake of understanding.
Since no one knows what might help, and I think all people should explore all options comfortable to them, I don't think I could run a study like that.
Quote:originally posted by: Onewheeldave
Pele- I have an interest in these things- I wonder if you'd be happy to post more details?
If you don't want to, that's understandable and fine by me, but, if you're willing, i'd be interested in knowing-
1. what type of cancer it was
2. was there any recorded medical data of the cancer e.g. x-rays
3. did she have any medical treatment for the cancer
4. did she have any alternative 'treatments' (other than the prayers of churchgoers and pagan spells you mentioned)
5. did the medical staff give any opinion as to what had happened (eg sponaneous remission)
6. what does your gran think happened to the cancer?
1. It started as ulcerative cancer of the esophogeal tracht and stomach, and then spread to her lymph nodes.
2. She's been scanned, tested, poked and prodded by several doctors, including in a really highly regarded cancer center, Roswell Cancer Center.
3. Chemo and Radiation. She went through 1 of the proposed 3 rounds.
4. No alternatives. In fact, she had such pain she stopped eating and drinking and ended up worse off in the hospital for dehydration.
5. They have no idea. They are stumped and offered no explanaitions.
6. Gran is 92. She has no idea. Nor does she even care to hypothesize. She's just happy to have it gone so she doesn't have to deal with that new fangled technology stuff anymore.
Feel free to ask away Dave. If I have to, I'll call and ask my gran for answers for ya
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Originally Posted By: Pele
1. It started as ulcerative cancer of the esophogeal tracht and stomach, and then spread to her lymph nodes.
2. She's been scanned, tested, poked and prodded by several doctors, including in a really highly regarded cancer center, Roswell Cancer Center.
3. Chemo and Radiation. She went through 1 of the proposed 3 rounds.
4. No alternatives. In fact, she had such pain she stopped eating and drinking and ended up worse off in the hospital for dehydration.
5. They have no idea. They are stumped and offered no explanaitions.
6. Gran is 92. She has no idea. Nor does she even care to hypothesize. She's just happy to have it gone so she doesn't have to deal with that new fangled technology stuff anymore.
Feel free to ask away Dave. If I have to, I'll call and ask my gran for answers for ya
Thanks
Why did she only have 1 of the proposed 3 rounds- had the cancer gone, or, was it still there but she chose to discontinue treatment?
Originally Posted By: Pele
1. It started as ulcerative cancer of the esophogeal tracht and stomach, and then spread to her lymph nodes.
2. She's been scanned, tested, poked and prodded by several doctors, including in a really highly regarded cancer center, Roswell Cancer Center.
3. Chemo and Radiation. She went through 1 of the proposed 3 rounds.
4. No alternatives. In fact, she had such pain she stopped eating and drinking and ended up worse off in the hospital for dehydration.
5. They have no idea. They are stumped and offered no explanaitions.
6. Gran is 92. She has no idea. Nor does she even care to hypothesize. She's just happy to have it gone so she doesn't have to deal with that new fangled technology stuff anymore.
Feel free to ask away Dave. If I have to, I'll call and ask my gran for answers for ya
Thanks
Why did she only have 1 of the proposed 3 rounds- had the cancer gone, or, was it still there but she chose to discontinue treatment?
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
It was really odd Dave.
She actually wanted to discontinue. My gran had *never* been sick. She's one of the healthiest people I've ever known, even at 92. When the chemo made her actually feel very ill, she wanted to discontinue.
We talked her into going back to the dr's and they agreed to run more tests before continuing her treatmenst, in part because she wouldn't take care of herself the way one must when undergoing chemo and rad. Her test came back neg. Her t-cells were all perfectly normal and there were no ulcers and no signs of the cancer in her lymph nodes.
She and the dr's reached an agreement. She would not have the chemo and radiation but they would continue to check her and test her. The moment anything is abnormal, she goes right back in.
So she went in to stop it before they knew the cancer was gone. It just so happened to work out perfectly.
It was really odd Dave.
She actually wanted to discontinue. My gran had *never* been sick. She's one of the healthiest people I've ever known, even at 92. When the chemo made her actually feel very ill, she wanted to discontinue.
We talked her into going back to the dr's and they agreed to run more tests before continuing her treatmenst, in part because she wouldn't take care of herself the way one must when undergoing chemo and rad. Her test came back neg. Her t-cells were all perfectly normal and there were no ulcers and no signs of the cancer in her lymph nodes.
She and the dr's reached an agreement. She would not have the chemo and radiation but they would continue to check her and test her. The moment anything is abnormal, she goes right back in.
So she went in to stop it before they knew the cancer was gone. It just so happened to work out perfectly.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
Keeper of the Secret Fire
9 posts
Location: Oakland, CA, USA
Keeper of the Secret Fire
9 posts
Location: Oakland, CA, USA
Posted:
Originally Posted By: PeleIn Houdini's defense, it wasn't part of a stunt. It was part of a boast he put out to the public. The guy walked up, asked if he was Houdini and when Harry said yes, the man decked him, without warning for HH to prep himself. I've read many conflicting reports on whether or not he took pain meds in addition to the hypnosis, including some quotes from his wife.
I need to find the book on Houdini's life and magic that I found that story from. I am pretty certain that for a magician Houdini proved hard core and only used self-hypnosis, then forgot the incident (or at least the pain) and never checked in with a doctor/hospital. I said stunt, because the "iron stomach" routine is often used by advanced martial artists in demonstrations. The prep Houdini needed to have made I am familiar with-- it doesn't involve any armor, but rather he set his powerful abs in a specific way in combination with chi and breathe control. It only takes a moment's warning to do, but without that warning, the punch does normal damage. Accounts also vary as to who punched him, was it a pro boxer, circus strong man or stupid spectator? I'd really like a good source on this one as I use this important piece of history in safety talks.
Originally Posted By: PeleI know two very incredible hypnotists and neither asks for doctors referrals. Both are certified psychiatrists, so that might have something to do with it as well.
Its the certified psychiatrist part, I am pretty sure of that much. If they can prescribe pills or otherwise claim enough authority; there instances when such Doctors have open minds, improved practices and use hypnosis. Other doctors say hypnotism is total quackery or will advise against it for a particular reason, such as mental state,medical condition or medications.
For others practicing hypnotism, it is a different story. Would you mind asking these friends what the deal is exactly for hypnotherapists, regular hypnotists and entertainers?
Once again meditation,hypnotism,energy work or prayer seems to be a great secondary treatment to me, personally. No matter how it works, if it works then its good, if it does not and its all you relied on, it can be very,very bad. Go see a real Doctor too
Sorry if my posts are sometimes a bit long or it seems like I addressed Pele a lot in this one. I've been reading her posts and wanted to "meet" Pele for a few days now. I couldn't resist quoting such a cool person.
Any one have some reliable sources on Houdini or energy healing working?
Originally Posted By: PeleIn Houdini's defense, it wasn't part of a stunt. It was part of a boast he put out to the public. The guy walked up, asked if he was Houdini and when Harry said yes, the man decked him, without warning for HH to prep himself. I've read many conflicting reports on whether or not he took pain meds in addition to the hypnosis, including some quotes from his wife.
I need to find the book on Houdini's life and magic that I found that story from. I am pretty certain that for a magician Houdini proved hard core and only used self-hypnosis, then forgot the incident (or at least the pain) and never checked in with a doctor/hospital. I said stunt, because the "iron stomach" routine is often used by advanced martial artists in demonstrations. The prep Houdini needed to have made I am familiar with-- it doesn't involve any armor, but rather he set his powerful abs in a specific way in combination with chi and breathe control. It only takes a moment's warning to do, but without that warning, the punch does normal damage. Accounts also vary as to who punched him, was it a pro boxer, circus strong man or stupid spectator? I'd really like a good source on this one as I use this important piece of history in safety talks.
Originally Posted By: PeleI know two very incredible hypnotists and neither asks for doctors referrals. Both are certified psychiatrists, so that might have something to do with it as well.
Its the certified psychiatrist part, I am pretty sure of that much. If they can prescribe pills or otherwise claim enough authority; there instances when such Doctors have open minds, improved practices and use hypnosis. Other doctors say hypnotism is total quackery or will advise against it for a particular reason, such as mental state,medical condition or medications.
For others practicing hypnotism, it is a different story. Would you mind asking these friends what the deal is exactly for hypnotherapists, regular hypnotists and entertainers?
Once again meditation,hypnotism,energy work or prayer seems to be a great secondary treatment to me, personally. No matter how it works, if it works then its good, if it does not and its all you relied on, it can be very,very bad. Go see a real Doctor too
Sorry if my posts are sometimes a bit long or it seems like I addressed Pele a lot in this one. I've been reading her posts and wanted to "meet" Pele for a few days now. I couldn't resist quoting such a cool person.
Any one have some reliable sources on Houdini or energy healing working?
John Lennon
SILVER Member
Funky Blessings Daily
215 posts
Location: USA
Funky Blessings Daily
215 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
Kind of like doc, I really don't feel in the mood to argue about faith.
That said I recommend anyone who DOES care about it to read Mark Twain's "Christian Science." His rantings on the rise of the christian science movement in his time.
Kind of like doc, I really don't feel in the mood to argue about faith.
That said I recommend anyone who DOES care about it to read Mark Twain's "Christian Science." His rantings on the rise of the christian science movement in his time.
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
Here is some info from an article by Dr Andrew Weil. He briefly refers to a couple of interesting studies looking at the intersection of faith and healing, and the roles doctors play, or dont play, in this.
"The issue of spirituality and the physician-patient relationship is getting a fair amount of attention in the medical community these days. In one fascinating study at Duke University Medical Center's VA hospital, a doctor and nurse recruited prayers for patients undergoing various cardiac procedures. Those patients who opted for the outside prayers offered by strangers had 50 percent to 100 percent fewer side effects than did the patients who rejected the offer. A number of small studies reviewed in the June 16, 2004, issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) found that many patients want physicians to consider their spiritual needs; in one study, 48 percent of the patients interviewed wanted their physicians to pray with them.
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Only a few studies have looked specifically at physicians' attitudes and behaviors about spirituality in their dealings with patients. In one study of 476 physicians cited in the JAMA review article mentioned above, 85 percent of the doctors felt that they should be aware of their patients' religious or spiritual beliefs, but only 31 percent felt that they should delve into these questions during routine office visits. However, more than twice as many physicians felt that discussing spiritual questions was more appropriate when patients are dying. A study published in the November 2000 issue of Oncology found that medical personnel (nurses as well as physicians) at a New York City cancer center who described themselves as religious were less subject than other practitioners to emotional exhaustion or "diminished empathy."
I like how he considers the perspective of both the patients faith, and the practitioners faith...
Here is some info from an article by Dr Andrew Weil. He briefly refers to a couple of interesting studies looking at the intersection of faith and healing, and the roles doctors play, or dont play, in this.
"The issue of spirituality and the physician-patient relationship is getting a fair amount of attention in the medical community these days. In one fascinating study at Duke University Medical Center's VA hospital, a doctor and nurse recruited prayers for patients undergoing various cardiac procedures. Those patients who opted for the outside prayers offered by strangers had 50 percent to 100 percent fewer side effects than did the patients who rejected the offer. A number of small studies reviewed in the June 16, 2004, issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) found that many patients want physicians to consider their spiritual needs; in one study, 48 percent of the patients interviewed wanted their physicians to pray with them.
advertisement
Only a few studies have looked specifically at physicians' attitudes and behaviors about spirituality in their dealings with patients. In one study of 476 physicians cited in the JAMA review article mentioned above, 85 percent of the doctors felt that they should be aware of their patients' religious or spiritual beliefs, but only 31 percent felt that they should delve into these questions during routine office visits. However, more than twice as many physicians felt that discussing spiritual questions was more appropriate when patients are dying. A study published in the November 2000 issue of Oncology found that medical personnel (nurses as well as physicians) at a New York City cancer center who described themselves as religious were less subject than other practitioners to emotional exhaustion or "diminished empathy."
I like how he considers the perspective of both the patients faith, and the practitioners faith...
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Houdini's wife released alot of books and articles. As an escape artist, I've been studying Houdini for years. Not to mention the 8 hour documentary on his life produced by (I believe Time/Life).
Joe Nickell did some amazing research into Houdini and his views on the Spiritual movement and energy healing. Houdini *wanted* to believe in all of it, but ended up spending a good share of his life debunking it, and even in death did so. I know Joe has a couple books out, or did, if they are still in print.
I can ask him when I see him.
It was two weeks from the incedent until Houdini died. From multiple, present eyewitnesses it was a college student, J. Gordon Whitehead, who gave Houdini no prep time before punching him multiple times in the abdomen. Part of the problem was Houdini shot his mouth off, often, about being "unbreakable". People wanted to prove him wrong so he used it as a promo stunt and occassionally as a blow off. This guy caught him in a moment of relaxation after a show when he was completely off guard.
He did shows for about 2 weeks before he died.
I personally don't view the "mental body" as a stunt at all as it is commonly used *in* stunts (many escapes call for it, or variations of). It is a training and discipline but in and of itself, not a stunt.
I don't understand what I am supposed to ask my friends about their hypnotherapy? One is not only able to be clinical but he is a stage hypnotist, and a *really good* one. I can ask Rennaisance Vaudeville about their/his hypnotism show but it's only for entertainment. The thing with hypno is that it can be used for alot, but again, like many other "energy" healings (and many contemporary treatments), only treats symptoms.
I don't view "energy" healing the same as faith healing though, not in the same way as the snake dancers and baptist revival healers.
BansheeCat, when I was in the hospital my family, who are very christian sent their preachers up to "pray" with/over me, even when my family was not present. I am not christian so while I appreciated the sentiment, it really stressed me out. My friends who brought in the healings of my own faith actually soothed me.
The doctors could have cared less, and the nurses, while wonderful, were not much better but since they weren't praying over me, I didn't really mind.
Houdini's wife released alot of books and articles. As an escape artist, I've been studying Houdini for years. Not to mention the 8 hour documentary on his life produced by (I believe Time/Life).
Joe Nickell did some amazing research into Houdini and his views on the Spiritual movement and energy healing. Houdini *wanted* to believe in all of it, but ended up spending a good share of his life debunking it, and even in death did so. I know Joe has a couple books out, or did, if they are still in print.
I can ask him when I see him.
It was two weeks from the incedent until Houdini died. From multiple, present eyewitnesses it was a college student, J. Gordon Whitehead, who gave Houdini no prep time before punching him multiple times in the abdomen. Part of the problem was Houdini shot his mouth off, often, about being "unbreakable". People wanted to prove him wrong so he used it as a promo stunt and occassionally as a blow off. This guy caught him in a moment of relaxation after a show when he was completely off guard.
He did shows for about 2 weeks before he died.
I personally don't view the "mental body" as a stunt at all as it is commonly used *in* stunts (many escapes call for it, or variations of). It is a training and discipline but in and of itself, not a stunt.
I don't understand what I am supposed to ask my friends about their hypnotherapy? One is not only able to be clinical but he is a stage hypnotist, and a *really good* one. I can ask Rennaisance Vaudeville about their/his hypnotism show but it's only for entertainment. The thing with hypno is that it can be used for alot, but again, like many other "energy" healings (and many contemporary treatments), only treats symptoms.
I don't view "energy" healing the same as faith healing though, not in the same way as the snake dancers and baptist revival healers.
BansheeCat, when I was in the hospital my family, who are very christian sent their preachers up to "pray" with/over me, even when my family was not present. I am not christian so while I appreciated the sentiment, it really stressed me out. My friends who brought in the healings of my own faith actually soothed me.
The doctors could have cared less, and the nurses, while wonderful, were not much better but since they weren't praying over me, I didn't really mind.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
!!! I too would find it really stressful to have a bunch of people praying over me, if that was not my belief system! Yikes. I might appreciate the sentiment and good will, but whew, would rather they pray in their own space and not mine!
I personally would not expect my doctor to share my faith, and am not sure i would find it particularly comforting if they did . I am not sure i have a faith per se! I am more interested in the medical perspective and qualifications from the medical practitioner--and would have the spiritual perspective enter in from the other areas of my life.
But i did find the article interesting, noting that it seemed to be that so many people found faith an important part of their healing process, or their ability to function as a healer.
I think using and comprehending the intended meaning of the word energy in regards to healing, faith and spirit , is a huge challenge, cause it is so often being used in a way that is hard to define.Used to describe something that is not necessarily energy in the scientific sense of the word at all. It covers so many things for so many people,and our vocabulary around what it is inexact. One of the many reasons people can find it hard to enter a conversation around the subject at hand!
!!! I too would find it really stressful to have a bunch of people praying over me, if that was not my belief system! Yikes. I might appreciate the sentiment and good will, but whew, would rather they pray in their own space and not mine!
I personally would not expect my doctor to share my faith, and am not sure i would find it particularly comforting if they did . I am not sure i have a faith per se! I am more interested in the medical perspective and qualifications from the medical practitioner--and would have the spiritual perspective enter in from the other areas of my life.
But i did find the article interesting, noting that it seemed to be that so many people found faith an important part of their healing process, or their ability to function as a healer.
I think using and comprehending the intended meaning of the word energy in regards to healing, faith and spirit , is a huge challenge, cause it is so often being used in a way that is hard to define.Used to describe something that is not necessarily energy in the scientific sense of the word at all. It covers so many things for so many people,and our vocabulary around what it is inexact. One of the many reasons people can find it hard to enter a conversation around the subject at hand!
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
BRONZE Member
Keeper of the Secret Fire
9 posts
Location: Oakland, CA, USA
Keeper of the Secret Fire
9 posts
Location: Oakland, CA, USA
Posted:
OK, cool thanks for the information, guys. Those are the sort of studies I'd like to see more of. J. Gordon Whitehead is now confirmed to me as the man to blame for Houdini's injury. Its plausible to me how Houdini afterwards could have used a powerful suggestion on himself, shut out the pain/nausea mostly,(nausea is the hardest to pain to hypnotize away) kept performing hardcore, and refused treatment, due to ignoring his bodies' own warning (the pain) It would probably take time (even a couple weeks) to die of a ruptured appendix/complication. During that time, most any other "normal" person would likely *not* have been living life like normal, but rather stayed in bed or someplace feeling like death. In my mind the pieces of that story now fit together.
The ability to use hypnotism to shut out pain is very dangerous Obviously its useful stuff anyway, so you need a Doctor involved these days. I've always admired Houdini, though my pet rats are better at escapology than I am right now.
Since Pele brings up another good point allow me to agree and clarify my position a little bit: energetic healing, prayer/faith healing, meditation/visualization and hypnotism --these techniques are all different from each other. To an extent I'm interested in all of them.(as long as it works...) Though there can be plenty of overlap or claims to the same end results; they all have different cultures, beliefs, practicioners and attitudes associated with them. Now, all of these are different from (though can be related in my mind to) the practice of channeling chi or the "mental body" disciplines, most commonly taught in Martial Arts or Buddhist temples. Properly trained a student can use these techniques for a lot more than just stunts or even just Martial Arts, the training has a profound impact on the mind and body, though this stuff can take years of training to achieve. I'm sure OneWheelDave, for example uses some form of chi to help the rope meteor stay straight and act like a staff, as in some of his admirable demo vids. (Tell me if I'm wrong, please-- especially since I've just taken up practicing meteor.)
I guess what I would like to know specifically about hypnotism is: What is a regular hypnotist (not a Doctor or anything) allowed to use hypnotism for in practice day-to-day or on stage? I think I'm clear on what I should *not* do and what isn't ethical. So, this is a question on what they are allowed to do. Oh, and since I discovered I'm pretty good at a couple techniques with out too much serious training, am I allowed to practice or claim hypnotism with out any "official" certification or license? I can with Reiki, but I need to always tell folks:
Please go see a real, qualified medical professional if you have a health problem and give an additional small disclaimer sometimes too. So, you'll read me saying that a lot in this thread, just the way many of you rightfully say "fire breathing is extremely dangerous" in other threads.
OK, cool thanks for the information, guys. Those are the sort of studies I'd like to see more of. J. Gordon Whitehead is now confirmed to me as the man to blame for Houdini's injury. Its plausible to me how Houdini afterwards could have used a powerful suggestion on himself, shut out the pain/nausea mostly,(nausea is the hardest to pain to hypnotize away) kept performing hardcore, and refused treatment, due to ignoring his bodies' own warning (the pain) It would probably take time (even a couple weeks) to die of a ruptured appendix/complication. During that time, most any other "normal" person would likely *not* have been living life like normal, but rather stayed in bed or someplace feeling like death. In my mind the pieces of that story now fit together.
The ability to use hypnotism to shut out pain is very dangerous
Obviously its useful stuff anyway, so you need a Doctor involved these days. I've always admired Houdini, though my pet rats are better at escapology than I am right now. Since Pele brings up another good point allow me to agree and clarify my position a little bit: energetic healing, prayer/faith healing, meditation/visualization and hypnotism --these techniques are all different from each other. To an extent I'm interested in all of them.(as long as it works...) Though there can be plenty of overlap or claims to the same end results; they all have different cultures, beliefs, practicioners and attitudes associated with them. Now, all of these are different from (though can be related in my mind to) the practice of channeling chi or the "mental body" disciplines, most commonly taught in Martial Arts or Buddhist temples. Properly trained a student can use these techniques for a lot more than just stunts or even just Martial Arts, the training has a profound impact on the mind and body, though this stuff can take years of training to achieve. I'm sure OneWheelDave, for example uses some form of chi to help the rope meteor stay straight and act like a staff, as in some of his admirable demo vids. (Tell me if I'm wrong, please-- especially since I've just taken up practicing meteor.)
I guess what I would like to know specifically about hypnotism is: What is a regular hypnotist (not a Doctor or anything) allowed to use hypnotism for in practice day-to-day or on stage? I think I'm clear on what I should *not* do and what isn't ethical. So, this is a question on what they are allowed to do. Oh, and since I discovered I'm pretty good at a couple techniques with out too much serious training, am I allowed to practice or claim hypnotism with out any "official" certification or license? I can with Reiki, but I need to always tell folks:
Please go see a real, qualified medical professional if you have a health problem
and give an additional small disclaimer sometimes too. So, you'll read me saying that a lot in this thread, just the way many of you rightfully say "fire breathing is extremely dangerous" in other threads.
John Lennon
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
Originally Posted By: BansheeCat
I like how he considers the perspective of both the patients faith, and the practitioners faith...
Hi Andrea.
I can see taking a health care providers faith into consideration if you're planning on developing a long term relationship with that provider. Especially if there's a serious illness involved. I prefer secular relationships myself, Luckily I've been spared any serious illnesses, I don't have a family doctor, I just use walk in clinics and I couldn't even tell you the name of the last doctor I saw. Just give me the diagnosis then answer my questions and I'm out the door. I'd be worried if a doctor accompanied his diagnosis with prayer.
Originally Posted By: BansheeCat
I like how he considers the perspective of both the patients faith, and the practitioners faith...
Hi Andrea.
I can see taking a health care providers faith into consideration if you're planning on developing a long term relationship with that provider. Especially if there's a serious illness involved. I prefer secular relationships myself, Luckily I've been spared any serious illnesses, I don't have a family doctor, I just use walk in clinics and I couldn't even tell you the name of the last doctor I saw. Just give me the diagnosis then answer my questions and I'm out the door. I'd be worried if a doctor accompanied his diagnosis with prayer.
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
JL- what I'll do instead is just ask my friends if they would be willing to email with you, as it would be easier than my trying to play middle ground
BC- I agree it is interesting. I can see the faith of the doctor being important to the religious faction of my family but I agree for me it is more about their training.
However, and this is where my dichotomous Libra is going to show.
I don't feel that way about all healers.
If I were to seek out a VouDoun, I would feel more comfortable with someone of Haitian than white. Respectively the same goes for accupuncture (which I'll never have again) and if I were to try ayurveda (probably not though).
In the end I think that faith helps those who believe they need it. I don't think it is necessary but I think those who want it, feel they need it, heal better with it than without. That is just opinion though, and not based in anything but observation.
It's all up to the individual.
JL- what I'll do instead is just ask my friends if they would be willing to email with you, as it would be easier than my trying to play middle ground
BC- I agree it is interesting. I can see the faith of the doctor being important to the religious faction of my family but I agree for me it is more about their training.
However, and this is where my dichotomous Libra is going to show.
I don't feel that way about all healers.
If I were to seek out a VouDoun, I would feel more comfortable with someone of Haitian than white. Respectively the same goes for accupuncture (which I'll never have again) and if I were to try ayurveda (probably not though).
In the end I think that faith helps those who believe they need it. I don't think it is necessary but I think those who want it, feel they need it, heal better with it than without. That is just opinion though, and not based in anything but observation.
It's all up to the individual.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
nut.
756 posts
Location: Bouncing off the walls., England (UK)
nut.
756 posts
Location: Bouncing off the walls., England (UK)
Posted:
Originally Posted By: BansheeCat
Here is some info from an article by Dr Andrew Weil. He briefly refers to a couple of interesting studies looking at the intersection of faith and healing, and the roles doctors play, or dont play, in this.
"The issue of spirituality and the physician-patient relationship is getting a fair amount of attention in the medical community these days. In one fascinating study at Duke University Medical Center's VA hospital, a doctor and nurse recruited prayers for patients undergoing various cardiac procedures. Those patients who opted for the outside prayers offered by strangers had 50 percent to 100 percent fewer side effects than did the patients who rejected the offer. A number of small studies reviewed in the June 16, 2004, issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) found that many patients want physicians to consider their spiritual needs; in one study, 48 percent of the patients interviewed wanted their physicians to pray with them.
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Only a few studies have looked specifically at physicians' attitudes and behaviors about spirituality in their dealings with patients. In one study of 476 physicians cited in the JAMA review article mentioned above, 85 percent of the doctors felt that they should be aware of their patients' religious or spiritual beliefs, but only 31 percent felt that they should delve into these questions during routine office visits. However, more than twice as many physicians felt that discussing spiritual questions was more appropriate when patients are dying. A study published in the November 2000 issue of Oncology found that medical personnel (nurses as well as physicians) at a New York City cancer center who described themselves as religious were less subject than other practitioners to emotional exhaustion or "diminished empathy."
I like how he considers the perspective of both the patients faith, and the practitioners faith...
That sounds like more of a study into how people's perception of being prayed for affects them, rather than an actual study of the benefits or otherwise of prayer.. You'd need to do a double blind trial for that, where people don't know (and the people treating them don't know) who is being prayed for and who isn't, or the results would be distorted by the placebo effect- and though several of those have been carried out, few have come up with any definite result- and at least one of those which did appeared to make people slightly iller...
Originally Posted By: BansheeCat
Here is some info from an article by Dr Andrew Weil. He briefly refers to a couple of interesting studies looking at the intersection of faith and healing, and the roles doctors play, or dont play, in this.
"The issue of spirituality and the physician-patient relationship is getting a fair amount of attention in the medical community these days. In one fascinating study at Duke University Medical Center's VA hospital, a doctor and nurse recruited prayers for patients undergoing various cardiac procedures. Those patients who opted for the outside prayers offered by strangers had 50 percent to 100 percent fewer side effects than did the patients who rejected the offer. A number of small studies reviewed in the June 16, 2004, issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) found that many patients want physicians to consider their spiritual needs; in one study, 48 percent of the patients interviewed wanted their physicians to pray with them.
advertisement
Only a few studies have looked specifically at physicians' attitudes and behaviors about spirituality in their dealings with patients. In one study of 476 physicians cited in the JAMA review article mentioned above, 85 percent of the doctors felt that they should be aware of their patients' religious or spiritual beliefs, but only 31 percent felt that they should delve into these questions during routine office visits. However, more than twice as many physicians felt that discussing spiritual questions was more appropriate when patients are dying. A study published in the November 2000 issue of Oncology found that medical personnel (nurses as well as physicians) at a New York City cancer center who described themselves as religious were less subject than other practitioners to emotional exhaustion or "diminished empathy."
I like how he considers the perspective of both the patients faith, and the practitioners faith...
That sounds like more of a study into how people's perception of being prayed for affects them, rather than an actual study of the benefits or otherwise of prayer.. You'd need to do a double blind trial for that, where people don't know (and the people treating them don't know) who is being prayed for and who isn't, or the results would be distorted by the placebo effect- and though several of those have been carried out, few have come up with any definite result- and at least one of those which did appeared to make people slightly iller...
THE MEEK WILL INHERIT THE EARTH!
If that's okay with you?
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
You are right, hammellis,and it is a good point-- yet i dont think the people who are being prayed for, or the people praying, necessarily are concerned about that distinction... It appears, that for whatever reason, their faith brings them comfort and better health( for patients) , and improved ability to perform their task( in the case of the physicians)
I can understand how a scientist would be interested in doing it as a double blind study etc etc.
But I also think one of the interesting aspects of "faith" may be that it is the *interaction* of the person, their awareness and beliefs, that is having a combined effect with the prayer/healing service. Much like placebo effect, really.The person need to believe they are receiving help, healing, medicine... In this case, perhaps the prayer works *with* their mind to affect their health. A collaboration. Integrated, multifactored interactions , not necessarily suitably or effectively studied by isolation techniques like a double blind study.
You are right, hammellis,and it is a good point-- yet i dont think the people who are being prayed for, or the people praying, necessarily are concerned about that distinction... It appears, that for whatever reason, their faith brings them comfort and better health( for patients) , and improved ability to perform their task( in the case of the physicians)
I can understand how a scientist would be interested in doing it as a double blind study etc etc.
But I also think one of the interesting aspects of "faith" may be that it is the *interaction* of the person, their awareness and beliefs, that is having a combined effect with the prayer/healing service. Much like placebo effect, really.The person need to believe they are receiving help, healing, medicine... In this case, perhaps the prayer works *with* their mind to affect their health. A collaboration. Integrated, multifactored interactions , not necessarily suitably or effectively studied by isolation techniques like a double blind study.
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Originally Posted By: JohnLennon I'm sure OneWheelDave, for example uses some form of chi to help the rope meteor stay straight and act like a staff, as in some of his admirable demo vids. (Tell me if I'm wrong, please-- especially since I've just taken up practicing meteor.)
Many aikido groups believe that chi (or equivalent energy) is an intrinsic part of their advanced techniques and some perform demonstrations that are supposed to illustrate this.
There are other aikido groups that don't believe in chi and make a point of demonstrating the exact same moves, claiming that this shows that simple physics is at work, not chi.
To me, it's a fairly irrelevant distinction- if the first group feel that what they do is best explained in terms of 'chi', then fair enough- as long as they're being sincere (because there are definitly others who specialise in deception and who know perfectly well that they are doing so).
It could be argued that the second group, despite not believing in chi, may yet, through the advanced physical training they've gone through, be using chi without being aware of it.
Ultimately, to even have a chance of answering that kind of question, we'd need to clarify what each means by 'chi'.
I know that my meteors stay straight cos I've put a lot of practice into it- none of that practise consisted of any kind of specialised 'chi development', but, then again, someone who really wanted to believe I'm using chi, could argue that the chi development occured as a by product of the practise?
I think that much the same applies with the debates of 'conventional medicine vs. alternative health' or 'science vs. mediumship' etc.
You get two sides whose main interest is in having an argument and proving the other side wrong, with very little interest in doing a bit of groundwork to establish if they're actually using terms in the same way as each other.
To me, there's a place for conventional medicine (whilst acknowledging that it has weaknesses as well as strenghs) & a place for the various alternative health systems (whilst acknowledging that some practitioners are sincere and some are scammers).
Originally Posted By: JohnLennon I'm sure OneWheelDave, for example uses some form of chi to help the rope meteor stay straight and act like a staff, as in some of his admirable demo vids. (Tell me if I'm wrong, please-- especially since I've just taken up practicing meteor.)
Many aikido groups believe that chi (or equivalent energy) is an intrinsic part of their advanced techniques and some perform demonstrations that are supposed to illustrate this.
There are other aikido groups that don't believe in chi and make a point of demonstrating the exact same moves, claiming that this shows that simple physics is at work, not chi.
To me, it's a fairly irrelevant distinction- if the first group feel that what they do is best explained in terms of 'chi', then fair enough- as long as they're being sincere (because there are definitly others who specialise in deception and who know perfectly well that they are doing so).
It could be argued that the second group, despite not believing in chi, may yet, through the advanced physical training they've gone through, be using chi without being aware of it.
Ultimately, to even have a chance of answering that kind of question, we'd need to clarify what each means by 'chi'.
I know that my meteors stay straight cos I've put a lot of practice into it- none of that practise consisted of any kind of specialised 'chi development', but, then again, someone who really wanted to believe I'm using chi, could argue that the chi development occured as a by product of the practise?
I think that much the same applies with the debates of 'conventional medicine vs. alternative health' or 'science vs. mediumship' etc.
You get two sides whose main interest is in having an argument and proving the other side wrong, with very little interest in doing a bit of groundwork to establish if they're actually using terms in the same way as each other.
To me, there's a place for conventional medicine (whilst acknowledging that it has weaknesses as well as strenghs) & a place for the various alternative health systems (whilst acknowledging that some practitioners are sincere and some are scammers).
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Originally Posted By: hamamelis
That sounds like more of a study into how people's perception of being prayed for affects them, rather than an actual study of the benefits or otherwise of prayer.. You'd need to do a double blind trial for that, where people don't know (and the people treating them don't know) who is being prayed for and who isn't, or the results would be distorted by the placebo effect- and though several of those have been carried out, few have come up with any definite result- and at least one of those which did appeared to make people slightly iller...
As banshee cat points out, in that particular case, many would argue that the beneficial effects of being prayed for, could well require that the patient knows that prayers are being said for them- in that case, the kind of 'double-blind' trial you're talking about, would not be appropriate.
As an analogy, take the fact that praise, in an educational context, is a positive thing. But you wouldn't attempt to establish (or disprove) that hypothesis, by performing the praise in a different room from the child, so he/she couldn't be influenced by it
Because, praise is only going to have a positive effect if it's heard.
With prayers, some believe that the effect is purely from a supernatural source, in which case a study of the kind you describe could be appropriate.
But, it would be most unscientific to assume that all supporters of prayer think in that way- many may well believe that prayer is effective when the patient is aware of the fact that they're being prayed for.
Originally Posted By: hamamelis
That sounds like more of a study into how people's perception of being prayed for affects them, rather than an actual study of the benefits or otherwise of prayer.. You'd need to do a double blind trial for that, where people don't know (and the people treating them don't know) who is being prayed for and who isn't, or the results would be distorted by the placebo effect- and though several of those have been carried out, few have come up with any definite result- and at least one of those which did appeared to make people slightly iller...
As banshee cat points out, in that particular case, many would argue that the beneficial effects of being prayed for, could well require that the patient knows that prayers are being said for them- in that case, the kind of 'double-blind' trial you're talking about, would not be appropriate.
As an analogy, take the fact that praise, in an educational context, is a positive thing. But you wouldn't attempt to establish (or disprove) that hypothesis, by performing the praise in a different room from the child, so he/she couldn't be influenced by it
Because, praise is only going to have a positive effect if it's heard.
With prayers, some believe that the effect is purely from a supernatural source, in which case a study of the kind you describe could be appropriate.
But, it would be most unscientific to assume that all supporters of prayer think in that way- many may well believe that prayer is effective when the patient is aware of the fact that they're being prayed for.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
BRONZE Member
Keeper of the Secret Fire
9 posts
Location: Oakland, CA, USA
Keeper of the Secret Fire
9 posts
Location: Oakland, CA, USA
Posted:
Originally Posted By: onewheeldave
Many aikido groups believe that chi (or equivalent energy) is an intrinsic part of their advanced techniques and some perform demonstrations that are supposed to illustrate this.
There are other aikido groups that don't believe in chi and make a point of demonstrating the exact same moves, claiming that this shows that simple physics is at work, not chi.
To me, it's a fairly irrelevant distinction- if the first group feel that what they do is best explained in terms of 'chi', then fair enough- as long as they're being sincere (because there are definitly others who specialise in deception and who know perfectly well that they are doing so).
It could be argued that the second group, despite not believing in chi, may yet, through the advanced physical training they've gone through, be using chi without being aware of it.
Ultimately, to even have a chance of answering that kind of question, we'd need to clarify what each means by 'chi'.
I know that my meteors stay straight cos I've put a lot of practice into it- none of that practise consisted of any kind of specialised 'chi development', but, then again, someone who really wanted to believe I'm using chi, could argue that the chi development occured as a by product of the practise?
I think that much the same applies with the debates of 'conventional medicine vs. alternative health' or 'science vs. mediumship' etc.
You get two sides whose main interest is in having an argument and proving the other side wrong, with very little interest in doing a bit of groundwork to establish if they're actually using terms in the same way as each other.
To me, there's a place for conventional medicine (whilst acknowledging that it has weaknesses as well as strenghs) & a place for the various alternative health systems (whilst acknowledging that some practitioners are sincere and some are scammers).
Thank You! You've reaffirmed a large part of point. To be clear I'm *not* interested in debating superiority of a particular school philosophy or technique, I'm only interested in questions like "What works?" or "Does it it work?" and to an extent, is the practitioner or school of thought honest or full of deception?
Now I admit after a spending a large portion of my life researching or practicing various forms of mediumship, magic, alternative religion and the occult.-- Only to find that many of the ancient, ritual, spells and so n disappointingly didn't ever really produce any flashy magic effects. Led me to practicing illusions. I'm actually considering using a combination of illusions and honest attempts at traditional divination in my future acts for one example of where I'm personally headed.(I don't like using Magick with the K to differentiate between the two though, it seems a little pretentious.)
Actually if it isn't
it would help me to know if you are of the school of thought that believes in chi or do you believe its all practice? Either way I was impressed enough by your videos to learn to make my own meteor and practice them. So, your opinion is valuable to me either way.
I'd personally say that whether you believe or not, if chi is real, you developed at least some of it, if you use the same practice techniques. Whatever use, it works for you! So, it would help me to know if you, personally consciously believe in, and are using chi or not. Mind if start asking questions on another thread? I'll be visiting local Buddhist temples for more info soon too.
By the way just to say: please feel free to e-mail me yourself or give this e-mail to your performer friends this is one of mt pubic public gmail addresses: skrawl5gmail.com I'll read all messages and won't feel spammed or any thing.
Originally Posted By: onewheeldave
Many aikido groups believe that chi (or equivalent energy) is an intrinsic part of their advanced techniques and some perform demonstrations that are supposed to illustrate this.
There are other aikido groups that don't believe in chi and make a point of demonstrating the exact same moves, claiming that this shows that simple physics is at work, not chi.
To me, it's a fairly irrelevant distinction- if the first group feel that what they do is best explained in terms of 'chi', then fair enough- as long as they're being sincere (because there are definitly others who specialise in deception and who know perfectly well that they are doing so).
It could be argued that the second group, despite not believing in chi, may yet, through the advanced physical training they've gone through, be using chi without being aware of it.
Ultimately, to even have a chance of answering that kind of question, we'd need to clarify what each means by 'chi'.
I know that my meteors stay straight cos I've put a lot of practice into it- none of that practise consisted of any kind of specialised 'chi development', but, then again, someone who really wanted to believe I'm using chi, could argue that the chi development occured as a by product of the practise?
I think that much the same applies with the debates of 'conventional medicine vs. alternative health' or 'science vs. mediumship' etc.
You get two sides whose main interest is in having an argument and proving the other side wrong, with very little interest in doing a bit of groundwork to establish if they're actually using terms in the same way as each other.
To me, there's a place for conventional medicine (whilst acknowledging that it has weaknesses as well as strenghs) & a place for the various alternative health systems (whilst acknowledging that some practitioners are sincere and some are scammers).
Thank You! You've reaffirmed a large part of point. To be clear I'm *not* interested in debating superiority of a particular school philosophy or technique,
I'm only interested in questions like "What works?" or "Does it it work?" and to an extent, is the practitioner or school of thought honest or full of deception?Now I admit after a spending a large portion of my life researching or practicing various forms of mediumship, magic, alternative religion and the occult.-- Only to find that many of the ancient, ritual, spells and so n disappointingly didn't ever really produce any flashy magic effects. Led me to practicing illusions. I'm actually considering using a combination of illusions and honest attempts at traditional divination in my future acts for one example of where I'm personally headed.(I don't like using Magick with the K to differentiate between the two though, it seems a little pretentious.)
Actually if it isn't
it would help me to know if you are of the school of thought that believes in chi or do you believe its all practice? Either way I was impressed enough by your videos to learn to make my own meteor and practice them. So, your opinion is valuable to me either way.I'd personally say that whether you believe or not, if chi is real, you developed at least some of it, if you use the same practice techniques. Whatever use, it works for you! So, it would help me to know if you, personally consciously believe in, and are using chi or not. Mind if start asking questions on another thread? I'll be visiting local Buddhist temples for more info soon too.
By the way just to say: please feel free to e-mail me yourself or give this e-mail to your performer friends this is one of mt pubic public gmail addresses: skrawl5
John Lennon
GOLD Member
Rancor
253 posts
Location: Right Here, USA
Rancor
253 posts
Location: Right Here, USA
Posted:
I think that faith healing is largely placebo. The power of the mind is so much more than people give it credit for.
I think that faith healing is largely placebo. The power of the mind is so much more than people give it credit for.
Human
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Originally Posted By: JohnLennon
Actually if it isn't it would help me to know if you are of the school of thought that believes in chi or do you believe its all practice? Either way I was impressed enough by your videos to learn to make my own meteor and practice them. So, your opinion is valuable to me either way.
I'd personally say that whether you believe or not, if chi is real, you developed at least some of it, if you use the same practice techniques. Whatever use, it works for you! So, it would help me to know if you, personally consciously believe in, and are using chi or not. Mind if start asking questions on another thread? I'll be visiting local Buddhist temples for more info soon too.
By the way just to say: please feel free to e-mail me yourself or give this e-mail to your performer friends this is one of mt pubic public gmail addresses: skrawl5gmail.com I'll read all messages and won't feel spammed or any thing.
To answer your question of whether I'm using chi, I really would need to know your definition of 'chi'. However, to save time, I'll say that I suspect strongly that my answer would be 'no, I'm not using chi'.
Partly because, if I wanted to pass on advice about keeping meteors straight, that advice would not include anything along the lines of 'develop your chi'
Instead I'd probably talk about how, when doing a 2-beat weave with poi, the 'straightness' is accomplished by your two hands putting different forces into the two poi: with meteors you're using only one hand- however the meteor emerges at 2 points, the thumb end and the little finger end of the hand- think in terms of manipulating the rope via those two contact points the create the 'straightness' effect.
It's harder than with the 2 hands and poi, cos the contact points are very much closer- but that's all it is harder, a little practice will accomplish the effect.
(Incidently, I'm assuming you have first mastered basic poi moves like the 2-beat weave, as, IMO, this is essential for painlessly learning meteors)
Remember that one definition of Magick is simply 'By doing certain things certain results will follow' and that includes accomplishing what you intend by normal, mundane methods- sometimes those things are most easily achieved via straightforwrd physics.
Originally Posted By: JohnLennon
Actually if it isn't
it would help me to know if you are of the school of thought that believes in chi or do you believe its all practice? Either way I was impressed enough by your videos to learn to make my own meteor and practice them. So, your opinion is valuable to me either way.I'd personally say that whether you believe or not, if chi is real, you developed at least some of it, if you use the same practice techniques. Whatever use, it works for you! So, it would help me to know if you, personally consciously believe in, and are using chi or not. Mind if start asking questions on another thread? I'll be visiting local Buddhist temples for more info soon too.
By the way just to say: please feel free to e-mail me yourself or give this e-mail to your performer friends this is one of mt pubic public gmail addresses: skrawl5
To answer your question of whether I'm using chi, I really would need to know your definition of 'chi'. However, to save time, I'll say that I suspect strongly that my answer would be 'no, I'm not using chi'.
Partly because, if I wanted to pass on advice about keeping meteors straight, that advice would not include anything along the lines of 'develop your chi'
Instead I'd probably talk about how, when doing a 2-beat weave with poi, the 'straightness' is accomplished by your two hands putting different forces into the two poi: with meteors you're using only one hand- however the meteor emerges at 2 points, the thumb end and the little finger end of the hand- think in terms of manipulating the rope via those two contact points the create the 'straightness' effect.
It's harder than with the 2 hands and poi, cos the contact points are very much closer- but that's all it is harder, a little practice will accomplish the effect.
(Incidently, I'm assuming you have first mastered basic poi moves like the 2-beat weave, as, IMO, this is essential for painlessly learning meteors)
Remember that one definition of Magick is simply 'By doing certain things certain results will follow' and that includes accomplishing what you intend by normal, mundane methods- sometimes those things are most easily achieved via straightforwrd physics.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
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BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
Quote:Now I admit after a spending a large portion of my life researching or practicing various forms of mediumship, magic, alternative religion and the occult.-- Only to find that many of the ancient, ritual, spells and so n disappointingly didn't ever really produce any flashy magic effects.
Hi JohnLennon
I too spent quite a bit of time and effort trying to access the "super powers" professed by various forms of occultism and "people who know things" only to be sorely disappointed that those effects weren't achieved. I could have accepted the explanation that "the universe, or God, or "the powers" felt that I wasn't ready, but I didn't, I went with it/they don't work the way it's "supposed" to.
Quote:I'm actually considering using a combination of illusions and honest attempts at traditional divination in my future acts for one example of where I'm personally headed
Have you considered studying cold reading ? there's several books out there on the topic.
Nothing screams ' new age hippy" than spelling magic with a "k" but in some circles you may just want to do that. Spelling it as magic/k resonates with a larger audience and if you're going into performance with this stuff, then I wouldn't be afraid of appearing pretentious.
Quote:Now I admit after a spending a large portion of my life researching or practicing various forms of mediumship, magic, alternative religion and the occult.-- Only to find that many of the ancient, ritual, spells and so n disappointingly didn't ever really produce any flashy magic effects.
Hi JohnLennon
I too spent quite a bit of time and effort trying to access the "super powers" professed by various forms of occultism and "people who know things" only to be sorely disappointed that those effects weren't achieved. I could have accepted the explanation that "the universe, or God, or "the powers" felt that I wasn't ready, but I didn't, I went with it/they don't work the way it's "supposed" to.
Quote:I'm actually considering using a combination of illusions and honest attempts at traditional divination in my future acts for one example of where I'm personally headed
Have you considered studying cold reading ? there's several books out there on the topic.
Nothing screams ' new age hippy" than spelling magic with a "k" but in some circles you may just want to do that. Spelling it as magic/k resonates with a larger audience and if you're going into performance with this stuff, then I wouldn't be afraid of appearing pretentious.
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