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the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Hey everyone, CLowns of the US found a new carrier.
They are back insuring people, including fire performers....but the cost went up...again...AND...here is where my rant begins.
I have been a performer professionally for nearly a decade, this wouldn't even work for an actor or dance troupe in many areas. This is the CRAPPIEST offering I have ever seen, where the bulk goes to something that will most likely *never* be needed and the lowest goes into the one most likely to happen. Ummmm...no.
I also would like to add that many fire authorities will look at this and laugh in my face. If there is not at least $500,000 preferably $1 mil property protection, it does not count.
It is now $165 for coverage from APril 25th 2003 to April 25th 2004. And technically, coverage offered went down.
"The policy provides $5,000 coverage for medical expenses per person per occurrence." - This covers what, 2 Tylenol?
"The policy provides $100,000 coverage for fire damage per occurrence." - This would be for the curtains of someplace
"The policy provides $1,000,000 for personal and advertising injury (hurting someone’s feelings/false advertising)." - Huh?
"The deductible is $500.00 per claim.
Please note: The policy from will no longer cover any animal’s you are using as part of your act. The use of animals will be at your own risk. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause
There is also now a $500 deductible for any claims made."
The items in quotes are directly taken from the information application that was sent to me.
This is what I get out of it. That COTUS knows they have a corner on this market. That they want our money and know we are desperate and so jacked up the prices and gave us crap for coverage so that we would all go running to them.
So technically, this is FAAAAR worse coverage than we were offered before, for far more money (nearly double of two years ago). And there are some cities that won't even accept this as it does not offer enough coverage...
But on the flipside, beggars can not be choosers.
I am still going to work on an alternative because this is just absolutely wrong.
In the meantime, it will have to do and I thought you might all want to know!
[ 25. April 2003, 10:28: Message edited by: Pele ]
Hey everyone, CLowns of the US found a new carrier.
They are back insuring people, including fire performers....but the cost went up...again...AND...here is where my rant begins.
I have been a performer professionally for nearly a decade, this wouldn't even work for an actor or dance troupe in many areas. This is the CRAPPIEST offering I have ever seen, where the bulk goes to something that will most likely *never* be needed and the lowest goes into the one most likely to happen. Ummmm...no.
I also would like to add that many fire authorities will look at this and laugh in my face. If there is not at least $500,000 preferably $1 mil property protection, it does not count.
It is now $165 for coverage from APril 25th 2003 to April 25th 2004. And technically, coverage offered went down.
"The policy provides $5,000 coverage for medical expenses per person per occurrence." - This covers what, 2 Tylenol?
"The policy provides $100,000 coverage for fire damage per occurrence." - This would be for the curtains of someplace
"The policy provides $1,000,000 for personal and advertising injury (hurting someone’s feelings/false advertising)." - Huh?
"The deductible is $500.00 per claim.
Please note: The policy from will no longer cover any animal’s you are using as part of your act. The use of animals will be at your own risk. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause
There is also now a $500 deductible for any claims made."
The items in quotes are directly taken from the information application that was sent to me.
This is what I get out of it. That COTUS knows they have a corner on this market. That they want our money and know we are desperate and so jacked up the prices and gave us crap for coverage so that we would all go running to them.
So technically, this is FAAAAR worse coverage than we were offered before, for far more money (nearly double of two years ago). And there are some cities that won't even accept this as it does not offer enough coverage...
But on the flipside, beggars can not be choosers.
I am still going to work on an alternative because this is just absolutely wrong.
In the meantime, it will have to do and I thought you might all want to know!
[ 25. April 2003, 10:28: Message edited by: Pele ]
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
member
67 posts
Location: Prato, Italy
67 posts
Location: Prato, Italy
Posted:
I am with you on working on better coverage..just let me know how I can help you (per our phone coversation)....
Love & Light,
Donia Love
Director
Ignis Devoco Industrial FIre Circus
www.ignisdevoco.com
206.819.5684
I am with you on working on better coverage..just let me know how I can help you (per our phone coversation)....
Love & Light,
Donia Love
Director
Ignis Devoco Industrial FIre Circus
www.ignisdevoco.com
206.819.5684
member
212 posts
Location: tampa fl usa
212 posts
Location: tampa fl usa
Posted:
I ran across that same policy a month or so back
through a agent here in fl I was quoted $85 for it. i didnt post anything about it due to the the fact it is basicly worthless. almost every fire dept I have talked with requires a min of 1 million to pull a permit. what is even scarier
is the high price polcyies arent even out there anylonger at least that I can find .
This same agent I have been working with did give me a great lead on a company that might cover me I sent in the app yesterday I will let everyone know what the results are.
I have also contated the fla insurance comisson
telling them of the require ments placed by the goverment and the lack of carriers to meet those requirements.Maybe by the time I retire i will have gotten an answer from them.but by law
the state has to provide you with insurance if they cant find a carrier.Kind of like homeonwers insurance here in fl they have a pool.
I ran across that same policy a month or so back
through a agent here in fl I was quoted $85 for it. i didnt post anything about it due to the the fact it is basicly worthless. almost every fire dept I have talked with requires a min of 1 million to pull a permit. what is even scarier
is the high price polcyies arent even out there anylonger at least that I can find .
This same agent I have been working with did give me a great lead on a company that might cover me I sent in the app yesterday I will let everyone know what the results are.
I have also contated the fla insurance comisson
telling them of the require ments placed by the goverment and the lack of carriers to meet those requirements.Maybe by the time I retire i will have gotten an answer from them.but by law
the state has to provide you with insurance if they cant find a carrier.Kind of like homeonwers insurance here in fl they have a pool.
I have been cursed with the imagination to envision it all
starring Skippy the green llama
1,148 posts
Location: Seattle, WA
1,148 posts
Location: Seattle, WA
Posted:
thnx for the update Pele!!
True, this coverage won't cover the minimum required for fire permits even here in Georgia, though what if this coverage was combined with the clients insurance??? Sorry if it's a naive question, but wouldn't this be at least something to bring to the table to _combine_ with a client(ie individual promoter, corporation, etc) to provide the necessary insurance minimum required for most fire permits(2 mil here)?? Just wonderin..
thnx for the update Pele!!
True, this coverage won't cover the minimum required for fire permits even here in Georgia, though what if this coverage was combined with the clients insurance??? Sorry if it's a naive question, but wouldn't this be at least something to bring to the table to _combine_ with a client(ie individual promoter, corporation, etc) to provide the necessary insurance minimum required for most fire permits(2 mil here)?? Just wonderin..
First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica
" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."
starring Skippy the green llama
1,148 posts
Location: Seattle, WA
1,148 posts
Location: Seattle, WA
Posted:
Riz, do you know if any other states uphold this statute?
Riz, do you know if any other states uphold this statute?
First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica
" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Riz, one of the high priced ones that covers EVERYTHING is Marshall Entertainment in Orlando, actually. I am trying to work with them on something.
Another option we might want to look into (and in I have been here, but this one really varies) is the low grade Pyrotechnic insurance. It would cover us in spades.
Musashii, while the combo amount sounds good in theory, it doesn't work for this reason....the food chain. If a person gets hurt in a club because a wick flies off, then that person will come after
a) you and the club simulataneously, and then the club will come after you
b) the club and then the club will come after you.
The insurance you carry is to help prtoect you against that. Not enough and there is no way it will work and you will be screwed. Remember when push comes to shove, it is not you AND them against the world....producers, performers, venues etc... are all individual entities and should be treated as such, which means that they need to be insured as such.
Right now ALOT of performers are performing under a venue insurance umbrella, BUT this needs to come with a signed legal document stating that it is alright for you to do so...by yourself and the venue, preferably by a fire authority as well.
Good luck all.
Riz, one of the high priced ones that covers EVERYTHING is Marshall Entertainment in Orlando, actually. I am trying to work with them on something.
Another option we might want to look into (and in I have been here, but this one really varies) is the low grade Pyrotechnic insurance. It would cover us in spades.
Musashii, while the combo amount sounds good in theory, it doesn't work for this reason....the food chain. If a person gets hurt in a club because a wick flies off, then that person will come after
a) you and the club simulataneously, and then the club will come after you
b) the club and then the club will come after you.
The insurance you carry is to help prtoect you against that. Not enough and there is no way it will work and you will be screwed. Remember when push comes to shove, it is not you AND them against the world....producers, performers, venues etc... are all individual entities and should be treated as such, which means that they need to be insured as such.
Right now ALOT of performers are performing under a venue insurance umbrella, BUT this needs to come with a signed legal document stating that it is alright for you to do so...by yourself and the venue, preferably by a fire authority as well.
Good luck all.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
member
101 posts
Location: college station, tx
101 posts
Location: college station, tx
Posted:
hi pele,
thanks for the update. i'm wanting some insurance as well. i did a quick google search and found this https://www.kellfire.com/fireworks_clubs.htm,
it's somewhat related. the interest for me would be in obtaining a Pyrotechnics Operators license and using that to pursue some insurance ends.
Have you ever gone that route?
Is there any special terminology tips you have for interfacing with either fire marshals or insurance agents? ie; don't say "i spin fire" say "i'm a avantgarde performance artist"?
thanks, keep us updated yall.
matt
hi pele,
thanks for the update. i'm wanting some insurance as well. i did a quick google search and found this https://www.kellfire.com/fireworks_clubs.htm,
it's somewhat related. the interest for me would be in obtaining a Pyrotechnics Operators license and using that to pursue some insurance ends.
Have you ever gone that route?
Is there any special terminology tips you have for interfacing with either fire marshals or insurance agents? ie; don't say "i spin fire" say "i'm a avantgarde performance artist"?
thanks, keep us updated yall.
matt
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
rftek, as a matter of fact, the Pyrotechnics is the route I am on now, just as a matter of course for extra knowledge and coverage.
When I approach anyone I always do it as a performer.
"Hi, my name is Pele, and I am contacting you to inquire about ___________________________.
I am (or if I am calling for someone I represent) S/He/They are professional performers in the tradition of side show and world cultural arts who deal primarily with fire as their tools. We would like more information about ____________________________ in order to be certain we are properly covered for legal and safety purposes."
I try to stay away from too many adjectives that seem flourishy and I never say I am a fire spinner, ever. It just sounds...unprofessional, and confusing. However, approach it first from the angle of a performer who is working from a cultural perspective and from a tradition perspective because those arts are widely supported and accepted.
Either way these people tend to be more technically minded than artistically minded so know all of you technical stuff. Be ready and able to answer each question assuredly and quickly.
And I have a portfolio ready for them, either to send or to hand them. And when meeting face to face I dress the business part. It is the attitude and presentation in addition to being armed with the full and complete knowledge of what you are doing that tends to make these people stop and think we are not out to set the world on fire, just our tools in it!!
rftek, as a matter of fact, the Pyrotechnics is the route I am on now, just as a matter of course for extra knowledge and coverage.
When I approach anyone I always do it as a performer.
"Hi, my name is Pele, and I am contacting you to inquire about ___________________________.
I am (or if I am calling for someone I represent) S/He/They are professional performers in the tradition of side show and world cultural arts who deal primarily with fire as their tools. We would like more information about ____________________________ in order to be certain we are properly covered for legal and safety purposes."
I try to stay away from too many adjectives that seem flourishy and I never say I am a fire spinner, ever. It just sounds...unprofessional, and confusing. However, approach it first from the angle of a performer who is working from a cultural perspective and from a tradition perspective because those arts are widely supported and accepted.
Either way these people tend to be more technically minded than artistically minded so know all of you technical stuff. Be ready and able to answer each question assuredly and quickly.
And I have a portfolio ready for them, either to send or to hand them. And when meeting face to face I dress the business part. It is the attitude and presentation in addition to being armed with the full and complete knowledge of what you are doing that tends to make these people stop and think we are not out to set the world on fire, just our tools in it!!
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
member
212 posts
Location: tampa fl usa
212 posts
Location: tampa fl usa
Posted:
I have looked into the Pyrotechnics myself agreeing that might be a route to take for proper coverage.
I read the not covered items for the new COTUS
policey it didnt say anything about open flame performers.all it said was Pyrotechnics and explosives.Maybe they are just grouping us in with them.
Pele you might want to check with Dave at bay area fireworks in long island they were here in fl
looking for pyro trainees.They might be runnning the same thing in NY.It looked like a good gig if you didnt mind being on the road alot.
rftek if your planning to deal with fire marshells it is a good bet to pick up The NFPA 160 manual and study it fire marshells love hearing people talk to them in their own verbge
plus it tells you how to put toghter a burn plan
that is a must have for pulling a permitt.
Plus you would be surpised how many little things you pick up on when making your burn plan which improves your performace and professionalism.It took me about a week to form mine .More times than not after submitting it for a permitt along with my press package I dont get asked any questions .
I have looked into the Pyrotechnics myself agreeing that might be a route to take for proper coverage.
I read the not covered items for the new COTUS
policey it didnt say anything about open flame performers.all it said was Pyrotechnics and explosives.Maybe they are just grouping us in with them.
Pele you might want to check with Dave at bay area fireworks in long island they were here in fl
looking for pyro trainees.They might be runnning the same thing in NY.It looked like a good gig if you didnt mind being on the road alot.
rftek if your planning to deal with fire marshells it is a good bet to pick up The NFPA 160 manual and study it fire marshells love hearing people talk to them in their own verbge
plus it tells you how to put toghter a burn plan
that is a must have for pulling a permitt.
Plus you would be surpised how many little things you pick up on when making your burn plan which improves your performace and professionalism.It took me about a week to form mine .More times than not after submitting it for a permitt along with my press package I dont get asked any questions .
I have been cursed with the imagination to envision it all
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
For Liquid Prodigy *bump*
For Liquid Prodigy *bump*
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
well texas just passed a law that all performances in front of more than 50 people must be insured and have a "flame effects license" and lotsa other stuff too, including the permits which we already have... so watch out! this will happen in your state soon! dammit all the performing newbies in this town are making things hard for us. too bad they are our freinds!
anybody got some updates on this stuff, things they would like to discuss? we've never had to get personal insurance coverage, we've been doing the venue insurance thing, and our permit was pretty open. so it's now time for me to actually go through a read all the endless piles of emails i have on the insurance subject... grumble grumble... bureaucratic mumbo jumbo... there have been a few groups around the country that were trying to get policies written specifically for them. any results? i will pay real live money for your time spent setting up your ploicy to anyone that can help us in this matter, if you have real policies that hold water.
well texas just passed a law that all performances in front of more than 50 people must be insured and have a "flame effects license" and lotsa other stuff too, including the permits which we already have... so watch out! this will happen in your state soon! dammit all the performing newbies in this town are making things hard for us. too bad they are our freinds!
anybody got some updates on this stuff, things they would like to discuss? we've never had to get personal insurance coverage, we've been doing the venue insurance thing, and our permit was pretty open. so it's now time for me to actually go through a read all the endless piles of emails i have on the insurance subject... grumble grumble... bureaucratic mumbo jumbo... there have been a few groups around the country that were trying to get policies written specifically for them. any results? i will pay real live money for your time spent setting up your ploicy to anyone that can help us in this matter, if you have real policies that hold water.
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Posted:
You might check with the people doing the Fright Nights fire show at Astroworld. I know they got six flags to accept clowns as their insurance provider, and I think they had to wrangle with the new TX laws as well.
You might check with the people doing the Fright Nights fire show at Astroworld. I know they got six flags to accept clowns as their insurance provider, and I think they had to wrangle with the new TX laws as well.
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