Forums > Events, Performances and Gatherings > Down the Rabbit Hole 2: Digging Deeper

Posted: 13th Apr 2007
really? not a single spinner in BKK at the moment?

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 13th Apr 2007
I'll be back in Bangkok this afternoon, back to Khao San road - flying down from Chiang Mai, want to see Songkran in two cities

Am flying out again to Krabi/Tonsai tomorrow afternoon though - pm me if you want to meet up today or tom morn?!

"If you're not living life on the edge, you're taking up too much space"

Posted: 13th Apr 2007
where are you staying? I'm right ON Kao Sarn - but will go for Wat Po Massage now...

looking forward

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 14th Apr 2007
Heh people
hope you Thailites are well and groovey
Im in WA at the mo - relaxing after ALOT of street shows over the last months - the tour is coming to an end and im in holiday mode.
I shall be stopping over in Brunei on the way back to Europe end of this month, for 10 days and trying to work out where im gonna be.
Was originally gonna head down to Bali to hook-up with Nick, but he's leaving as I arrive. Si am kinda thinkin maybe Thailand.
Who's around? where are people gonna be? and above all....:
Is it possible to dive with WhaleSharks begining of May in Koh Toa?
If I dont see you in Thialand - im gonna stay in Borneo - but will see you folks around and about in Europe or Canada during the Summer
Peas out
Rob

Feel the Flame
Phirenix

Posted: 14th Apr 2007
Ah, now, a very important question for anyone who has been to Krabi/Tonsai recently.

Where might i find a TV (preferably big screen in a bar!) tomorrow at 6.30pm Thai local time, to watch the Formula 1 GP?!?!

Any chance of one in Tonsai or do i spend the night in Krabi and head to Tonsai on Monday morn? hmm... Decisions

"If you're not living life on the edge, you're taking up too much space"

Posted: 14th Apr 2007
Hi everybody,

So, just so any of you know: Bali is great! Looks like I'm staying here until the end of June, as long as I can find a good place to settle down. I don't have as good a training space yet, but overall I feel like this is "home" more than Thailand was, and I'm already planning on spending next winter here

So maybe see somebody here?

n

"They're interdimensional fractal intelligences. That's why they wear funny shoes."

Posted: 14th Apr 2007
Nick: Check Legian beach for sunset (at the end of 66 road) greet the waves, the beach and the beautiful ppl for me.

Anything possible.

If you meet (Singapore)Gerry and (New Caledonia)Cyril, pls giv'em a from me - I'm missing them, but life draws me in a different direction.

(Bali - feels like coming home... doesn't it?)

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 14th Apr 2007
That's unfortunate, because I found out i'll be in Thailand from may 10th to august 20th, with some traveling to laos and cambodia in between.

I'll be in the chiang mai area, and then bangkok for the last 2 weeks or so.

To do: More Firedrums 08 video?

Wildfire/US East coast fire footage

LA/EDC glow/fire footage

Fresno fire

Posted: 15th Apr 2007
And that's a shocking new surprise for you? Curse the one who is forcing you on that airplane and exiles you to Thailand! I pity you!

May 10th... there is a slight chance that we may run into each other in BKK or Chiang Mai...

Let's C, in the meantime:

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 15th Apr 2007
Eek. I just realized I forgot to go give Ooud money I owe him, for chain he sent up to Pai for me. Is anybody going through Bangkok soon? Want to give him some money? It's not much and I can paypal you or something. 5 Euro or something like that.

What's his website again?

n

"They're interdimensional fractal intelligences. That's why they wear funny shoes."

Posted: 15th Apr 2007
I'm there right now. His website is not online with more but his number. Somehow I fear he stopped spinning Will see him today and you can consider it done.



But good you remember



Howz Bali?

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 16th Apr 2007
just a little mail to say Tx to some of you that make my trip in Thailand so amazing ... Pai was a great place to be, and all people there were just so beautiful ! wow

Indonesia is < THE > place to be, i don t know about Bali but in the jungle of Sumatra.. was one of the best feeling in my life to be there . i ll go back one day , who know maybe next winter

hope to see you all again
kiss kiss
isa

breathing is a safe and effective way of fighting death and death relative symptoms...most doctor agree that breathing is an excellent way to stay alive.
it s great!affordable!and great for your sex life!
start breathing today,TODAY!or else..start dying!

Posted: 17th Apr 2007
Just yesterday I got VERY disturbing news from KPG of one fellow spinner who stayed in KPG for about 2 months:

1) an Israeli got stabbed to death by a Thai in front of Drop-In Bar (Haad Rin) at 3am, just a couple of days ago... no press-report anywhere

2) Thai are acting "hostile" against Farangs who

2a) spin and therefore attract girls
2b) teach lessons to fellow travellers on Haad Rin Beach (as the Thai charge 1.000 Baht/ person for tuition)

Anyone out there who can verify, or correct these claims?

(am witholding any comment on this until verification)

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 17th Apr 2007
Same story I assume , with some more details about the fight and subsequent stabbing:



Story in Bangkok Post



and



Thread on ThaiVisa.com
EDITED_BY: jb510 (1176801823)

Posted: 17th Apr 2007
First point is a true, sad case though reported badly- it was a few days before the moon and all that... Someone dies at or around every full moon party, often more than one.The mix of crowds, drugs, alcohol, etc etc in such extremes is not a good one.

The second is far too much of a generalization to even comment on , except perhaps with another generalization- no one likes it if you interfere with their income. But do you have any specifics?

sad hey. I hope the road never reaches my place!

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Posted: 19th Apr 2007
That is just so up!

I notice a very different attitude in the approach of Thai (or maybe my eyes are just opening, looking behind the smile) towards tourists in Thailand.

It makes me reconsider MY attitude towards the country and the people. As far as my conversations with locals go, there are a few ethnic groups which are under tense observation by Thai residents:

- British (as for being drunk and obnoxious)
- Russian (as for having a rude attitude)
- and foremost: Israeli (as for having a very rude attitude)

I am trying (as often as I possibly can) to make them aware.

Almost every time I stay in Bangkok (Kao Sarn) I have to observe a westerner getting seriously beaten up. Please spread the word to as many ppl as possible, that the ThaiSmile is an obligation and NOT reflecting the actual state of mind or thoughts running through their head.

The second claim about Haad Rin and the opposition of Thai vs. western guys spinning and especially teaching that to fellow travellers on Haad Rin beach is an observation of a friend of mine. I don't want to comment, until it's clearly verified by a number of ppl sharing this experience.

It saddens me so much, because 5 years ago there was only one Thai in Haad Rin spinning staff and I happened to teach the Drop In crew at that time...

It would reflect a certain (sadly even common) attitude, which I especially observe in Asia against westerners and "taking away local business" (which is completely off)... IMHO

I side your wish, Banshee - but as what I have observed in KPN happening over the past 15 months alone, I have little hopes.

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 19th Apr 2007
You know, I would never go down and hang out drinking and partying in the downtown east side of Vancouver and expect to come out of the experience unscathed... never mind to expect find some enjoyment there?! That would be kinda dumb. Those areas have their own little microcosm of darkness and distortion. I do not consider the places like that to be reflective of my entire nation , or even an entire city.



That is why I remain perpetually astounded at how, and why? people/tourists go to the absolute worst shifty shady yukky places in Thailand, - full of sketchy behaviour on the part of boths Thais and falungs- and then act all surprised when it is unpleasant or bad things happen, or it is dirty or dangerous, or or...



Hardly a big shock? I mean it is not actually a sudden change. I have known Thailand for twenty years, and those places have never been truly reflective of Thai society or culture. Most mainstream Thais find those places sad disturbing and repulsive, as I do the down town east side drinking dives and crackhouses in Vancouver.





Khao San is not even a real part of Thailand in my mind. Haad Rin either, nor Pattaya, or even half of Phuket.Why go there?



Go spend time with real Thai communities, with friends and families, work with them and live with them, and then you might see a bit of Thailand that is worth smiling about.



But you might have to put some energy into it, learn their language and culture enough to find your way to those places, and have something to contribute when you get there.



*I am sorry if I sound rude, but you cant really diss a whole nation by implication, making massive generalizations about peoples behaviour, and expect me to swallow it silently?

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Posted: 19th Apr 2007
I get your point Andrea, but it's not that I experience these to be isolated incidences. I might come on too strong with what I'm trying to put across, but better sending out a harsh warning, than none at all.



MOST (young) travelers will at some point go Haad Rin to see the "legendary" (and infamous) Full Moon party... and to those I sent it out... Nobody can expect them to know this ahead or to learn Thai, just when visiting Thailand for a couple of weeks...



The rest is open for "discussion", I reckon.



No worries, in the meantime I can take harsh words and do well understand what exactly your trying to say and why.
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1177000713)

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 19th Apr 2007
Hmmn, you are right about tourists not having the time to learn a culture.

I guess I am just against tourism of the sort that comes to Thailand for a few weeks to get all debauched in the seedy spots and then goes home complaining about people not smiling at them.. ;0

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Posted: 19th Apr 2007
[Quote]Khao San is not even a real part of Thailand in my mind. Haad Rin either, nor Pattaya, or even half of Phuket[/Quote]

I agree with BansheeCat, FireTom.

In most countries I've been to the tourist industry attracts some shady types.

I would also have a fake smile on if I had to deal with most of the tourists in Had Rin.

Your words are too harsh, aimed at a whole nation dude. No doubt in my mind about that...

I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

Posted: 19th Apr 2007


That's as if I'd claim the Octoberfest not to be part of Munich and Dachau not to be part of German history.

That's denial. I have not travelled the North of Thailand yet, but would you then include the entire South NOT to be part of the country? Including Ayutthaya? Would you then say it's fair, that Farangs have to "use next door, please (and pay 50 Baht entry fee)"... other than Thai? Would you say it's fair that - as far as my (second hand) informations go - foreigners are expected to pay "more" (factor ranges from 1.5 - x) for products and services than Thai?

I am not talking about the virtue there is. I meet honest and straightforward Thai even in Kao Sarn as well. The point is that - for a westerner - it is more than hard to tell where that dividing line is and when a Thai is about to snap. I'm putting out a warning and would like ppl to spread the word and make others more cautious about their behaviour and interaction.

This is not a one way road. Why is Thailand attracting these kind of tourists? Why is Thai legislation in clear opposition to foreigners?

But this is leading too far, here. I will compile what I have to say and put it out for discussion - feel free to me there In the meantime, I arrived KPN today - where can I find you, Andrea?

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 20th Apr 2007
I am not there yet Tom, still busy packing... will get to Thailand start of May!



Thai legislation is protectionist. I think that is a good thing. Otherwise rich foreigners would own and control everything, and Thais could not afford to go to their own beaches, never mind live there. As it is rich people still manage to get their way through corruption, but at least they have to try a bit harder and the whole country just is not handed over to foreigners that want a cheap holiday house in paradise.



I completely agree that foreigners should pay more. We make craploads more money than the average Thai. If you don't like the price, you can chose to not buy, not go- whatever. Though if you speak Thai, the Thai people will often consider you Thai enough to get their prices-- in fact I occasionally have to fight with people far poorer than me to even let me pay for things at all. Thai people are very generous when they know you as a real person, not just someone who shows up for a party or to use their cheap labour and resources for profit.



Thai people are frustrated with what tourism does for/to their country. On the one hand, it has brought great financial/economic prosperity, for some- not at all evenly distributed. On the other hand, it has caused a dissolution of traditional Thai values, and fostered a general attitude that culture and nature are commodities for sale to the highest bidder. Thai people want to try and reassert a better balance, retain control of their resources and their cultural direction. Sensible. It may be " too late" and the current attempts may be heavy handed, but there is no denying the influx of foreign influences has been a very very mixed blessing and should be carefully managed.



It is their country Tom, you are a visitor, if you don't like it you should leave, hey? It is optional for travelers and tourists to be in Thailand. Their laws and attitudes have to be geared to the citizens who make the country , are committed to it( past and future) and cant just leave on a whim. Of course the Thai's should come first in Thailand.





As far as warning people, well, you are far more likely to encounter violence in Vancouver, New York, etc etc--and it never occurs to me to warn people about traveling there. I truly think if one behaves respectfully and applies common sense to where you go and what you do, the likelihood of any sort of trouble is almost non existent. Certainly not more than any other place... A general warning to not be an idiot is the sort of thing I consider self evident.



It is not denial to recognize that certain places in a country have been made for certain somewhat sordid commercial purposes that do not reflect the values and needs of the nation. Those are frequently isolated zones, and it is easy to see that by the fact that we can all recognize them as distinct districts. No one mixes up Khao San with say, the community of Chonburi, or Nakorn Si Thammarat... Places like that are such a small part of Thailand as to be insignificant. I mean come on, it is one road in a city of millions...



A middle class family would not let thier child go to Khao San road. It is considered a dangerous freak show.My Thai friends always are baffled at why other travelers I know even stay near there.



Most Thai would never choose to go to Haad Rin either. Trouble is, without more protectionist policies, the few beaches that they have managed to keep from being over run with half nude crazy partying tourists will soon be contaminated too... and then eventually the tourists that demanded access and destroyed it will be complaining about how "touristed" it is...

Sigh.

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Posted: 20th Apr 2007
PS--Fire Nix, would be lovely to see ya if you are around in May or June... Bring whips? It has been a long time since Ive seen ya, way way too long...lol

Did ya know Nick and I almost got our boat overturned by a whale Shark once? I think it was trying to mate. Or stop Nick s singing

I love Ko Tao!!! but diving down near the malaysian border, and sometimes off the anadaman islands, is supposed to be better for seeing whale sharks, from what I hear...

I think I am buying a kayak when I get to my place at KPG, so looking forward to being on the water, and long snorkelling expeditions!

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Posted: 20th Apr 2007
I have to disagree with a lot of what you say

Agreed that there are (MANY MANY) foreigners who do not comply with Thai traditions (mainly out of ignorance/ awareness of what that is), disagreed that the crack of my ass and my hypothalamus do not belong to the same body [/metaphore].

MOST OF US(!) do earn more in the West - but ]what does that matter? I'm here - I'm already ONE MORE that buys a product or orders a service - not enough? Would I have to pay AS MUCH as I do in my country?

How big is the gross revenue from international tourism in Thailand? How many of the Thai population are (in)directly living from and depending on tourism?

Foreigners responsible for the dilution of Thai traditions? Andrea, that is a dangerous road you are taking here, it is a racist-coloured aproach. Be careful which box you are opening, hun As far as I can see it, it's the THAI building huge resorts IN THAILAND - and if it wasn't, it's still the THAI GOVERNMENT, who grants them permission.

For example: The Thai (drug) policies (in Haad Rin for say) are hippocricy. How come WE all AS FOREIGNERS know, where to get that weed and that mushroom shake in Haad Rin (but not the local cops)? Should them kids now all start chewing Beetlenut???

IT IS NOT as if Thailand is a third world country - and it has NEVER been.

Besides all that, we're in the middle of a discussion already. Sad that you're not here already, I would LOVE to talk to you about this in person (and especially with you). I come here and I find my way for many years already...

Just may I be allowed to voice my concerns and inform fellow travellers of potential threats in - given that :"exceptional areas of" Thailand? Please? Yes? No?

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 20th Apr 2007
ps: PLEASE - do NOT name those islands online, Andrea.

Greatly appreciated

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 20th Apr 2007
Hey Tom...



I've been following this discussion from a distance... and even though it would probably be better off in discussion, I guess it's going to come to an end pretty soon anyways.



Just to let you know, your above post almost reads as if you're suggesting Andrea is racist, which is, of course, completely untrue and very unfair.



It would be nice if you could have another look at what you wrote and perhaps rethink it - try to say what you want a bit better...?



For my bit...

Thailand is not a third world country, but it has never had the same excessive wealth and consumerism as it's visitors now show.



I can also understand their relatively business-minded approach to getting more money out of Farang... we can afford it, so they will charge it. Tourist prices exist in many countries around the world, and I don't have a huge problem with it... after all, in most cases you're arguing over a comparatively small sum of money.



(Of course, if you're buying in bulk, those small sums will mount up... but then, if you're buying in bulk to sell elsewhere in the world, you're making money from the economic situation and cheap labour in Thailand anyway)



As for the drug policies - police corruption is not a new or exclusively Thai thing! It tends to be found more often in situations where feeding your family is harder.



And the resorts - Have you been to the Gold Coast in Australia? Thai people are doing what many other countries around the world are doing with massive enthusiasm at the minute (certainly in Northern Ireland) - and that's selling their countryside to bring in more money. Admittedly, the resorts in Thailand are often ugly and impacting on a significant reason why tourists want to visit there in the first place - but that's greed for you.



I think it's sad how much tourism has impacted on Thailand. Perhaps it's the result of a lack of management or experience... visitors and expectations just spiralled out of control... And I think that considering what they've had to put up with, many Thai people are very tolerant.



You never find the 'real' country in tourist areas... I've often found those places to be a strange mix of through traffic and fake expectation.



Enjoy KPN... and Andrea... best wishes for the packing




EDITED_BY: _Clare_ (1177065685)

Getting to the other side

Posted: 20th Apr 2007
OK - first is first: Andrea, pls excuse me for having sounded as if I accused you of a racist arpproach. This was never my intention

Second: experience me doing a (partial) backpaddling:

I'm under the impression of a VERY nice fire-spinning session and in major pain of trying to keep up with the spinners of Drop-In Bar:

I was able to render the claims above myself. I went to Haad Rin Bar and was warmly welcomed by the present crew in rememberance of my frequent visits and the fire competition. The guys rock! High speed spinning with great control (which I am obviously lacking - according to the burns received).

Guys: If you intend to go Haad Rin and spin only to show off, showing a condescending approach to Thai people and their way of penetrating fire - don't be amazed, if you receive "filthy looks" and been treated with neglect. If you come there to spin and show off only to impress the girls and to compete with the locals... well I guess you get the idea.

You come and create problems which derive in your own attitude and approach.

These guys do that for a living on a daily base and IF YOU go there to teach them a lesson - learn it yourself.

Not everything is perfect in Thailand and they do have the same problem everybody has across the planet: The government does not necessarily represent them individually.

I still am preparing a text that I will put out for discussion and please feel free to and yell at me. No worries, I can take it as much as I take the (major) burns right now *ouch*.

I've seen great artistry and am still under the impression of warm (Thaistyle) hospitality. Juggling torches on ignited woodlegs, the guys felt compelled to prove their skills to me - and find me, still in awe

Is that good now? I strongly hope so. If not, please feel free to let me know. ..

Things here are not perfect, but hey: WHERE on earth do you find perfection? We're humans, they are humans - what's the deal?

If we (with our western and sometimes arrogant attitude) come to Thailand and try to teach them a lesson in disrespect - no winder if we have to learn ours (painfully). They are Buddhists - truely beliving in re-incarnation. So never mind, if you find a knife sticking up your groin - you will come back soon (but maybe as a roach )

BUT if you come humble, eager to learn and with compassion; IF you are able to leave your heritage and ego behind and pay respect, you will find that Thai are one of the most admirable ppl in the world.

That's all I have to say here and now - find the rest in Social Discussion, soon.

Open for a ??? pleeease

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 20th Apr 2007
Hmn a friend just informed me that this Firenix is not the Firenix that does whips? :0 True? Sad. Firenix, did you know you have a wandering shadow alter ego, long lost twin or stolen identity out there in the world wandering around and getting you into trouble with whips? Wish I had one.

Tom, glad you had a better experience, minus the burns.The only response I had to the posts just now was to point out that as of august the Thai govt has made some major changes regarding foriegn ownership and investment, and that is changing the investment structures of many of the big developments. Whether it stops any remains too be seen... At least rich Thai poor Thai problems within their own country are a bit more manageable than all the foreign influences.

I do sound kinda racist dont I ?

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Posted: 20th Apr 2007
meet me in SD and you will understand what I mean Again: If it came across as if I accused you of racism, that was not my intention - can we get past that? Please? I admired you speaking Thai and the way you were interacting with them. Please

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 21st Apr 2007
Oh dont worry I dont take anything all that seriously...

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."