Forums > Social Discussion > a perfect world

Posted: 12th Mar 2005
because it is only one imagination. anything defined as perfect in one mind is only perfect to that one. so if perfection is imperfect to another then perfection for everyone would also be imperfection for everyone. that is the ability to imagine perfection only makes the understood world that much more imperfect.

so i guess now you have to think...is it possible to be in a perfect world if all you did was imagine about the imperfect?

Posted: 12th Mar 2005
who's to say that what you are experiencing now is perfect, and its only your delusion that its imperfect that keeps you from experiencing the wonders of perfection?

who's to say that its only our perception of reality that defines our experience?

those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

Posted: 12th Mar 2005
I agree that perfection is perception. I don’t agree that everything that has happened in the past is perfect because it can’t be changed. If we all took that view, the first time we tried a btb weave and cracked ourselves in the head we would say, “Perfect!” and never learn a less painful way of doing it. By saying that was imperfect because it looked like crap and it hurt. We can then look at what caused the imperfections and change them in the future. Making for a more perfect past. In the future that is. As said before, perfection is the goal. The quest for it in whatever we do is what keeps us moving, keeps us learning, and gives us meaning. I think what I mean is, imperfections show us how to reach perfection. Its all just a balance.
“I can’t see the future but I can see the past, so I know what happens next, because I know what happened last”.

I ain't been around the world, but I've been around the block. I ain't seen everything, but I've seen enough to talk. I'm not a prophet, I'm not the 2nd comming of christ. I'm just a mason with a will to build and a little advice.

Posted: 13th Mar 2005

Written by: shen shui

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man, that is so sweet.
beautifully, perfectly spoken, doktorskell.
touches a deep recess inside me... resonating its truth...

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I'm glad my vision touched you. Such a world is something to long for
Purity of mankind will be a tough one to achieve

Fair luna bright, fair luna moon
it shines at night but fades too soon
fair luna moon, fair luna bright
forever we dance
we dance under starlight

Posted: 13th Mar 2005
but but but...
even imperfections are perfect...
they are perfect at being imperfect...
i know, i know.. its this crazy dichotomy..
perhaps its only real for me...

its this absolute sorta perfect.. .maybe... Perfect with a capital P.... and then these relative perfects...
ie the whole hit your head theory that stickman (who has a cool avatar, btw) said... hitting yourself in the head shows the imperfection of the move you are attempting, but the fact that you did what you did and what happened, happened, is Perfect. it is as it is because that is the way it is.
yeah?
nah?

either way, its right, AND wrong...
but perhaps thats another thread....

those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

Posted: 13th Mar 2005
o.k what do have to compare our reality to?

Posted: 13th Mar 2005

Written by: Stick Man

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If we all took that view, the first time we tried a btb weave and cracked ourselves in the head we would say, “Perfect!” and never learn a less painful way of doing it.

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...

Written by: Burning Brain

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well the way i see it is that perfection is when something performs in a way that it is suppose to. so if something happens (past) then it happend the only way possible under the certain circumstances and therefore performed perfectly. but when something such as a plan, which is based in the mind where the subject defines the world's laws, is put into the real world where the objects define the laws things can be imperfect. that is things can not go according to plan.

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Written by: stick man

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imperfections show us how to reach perfection

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i agree but why cant something be imperfect and perfect at the same time. everything is relative, isnt it?

shen shui...yep..,but what is absolute perfect. sounds to me like its a perfect that hasnt yet been tested. one in the future. or in the imagination. just possibilities really.

rikstik. i compare my reality to other peoples. where do you think disagreements come from.

Posted: 14th Mar 2005
i dont believe in perfection things can always be improved, there is no real level where i cant get any better at something, so if i can reach a good level whats stopping me to reach a great level and if i can reach that with the right motivation i can reach a superb level so on and so forth,

"Only fools are positive! are you sure? Im POSITIVE"

Posted: 14th Mar 2005
FireBug.. Correct me if I am misunderstanding you, but what you mean to say is that you do not beleive your personal accomplishments are "excellent and delightful in all respects", "lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of their nature or kind", and/ or "being without defect or blemish" (quoted definitions from dictionary.com).. It seems as though you were (perfectly) limiting the term to personal accomplishment.. But you do believe in the series of arranged letters that when spoken aloud sound like perfection? And you do believe that it can be applied to, lets say for example, inanimate static ideas or objects, either simple or complex yes???



What I am asking, and out of sheer curiosity I might add, is this.... Do you really not believe that there is anything that is perfect in all of existence? Or did you just not know that the term perfection is a simple adjective (often times used to describe the complex) that could be used to describe things other than personal accomplishment/ achievements??



From here down is not directed towards you(Firebug), nor anyone else specifically. All of the uses of 'you' are meant to be taken in their general vagueness of context.



The story of a hypothetical tent:

A perfect tent is perfect because it meets all of its intended needs.. It keeps out water and bugs and shields you from the wind, snow, and sun. If you tell me that it is not perfect because YOU bought it for aesthetic appeal but its colours visually offend you then I say you are simply construing the defined bounds of the word (which you did not make up I might add) to try and describe a personal shortfall of goals.. Why not just say the perfect tent is indeed perfect becuase it meets the intended goals of its creators in such ways that do not fall short of expectations or intention, yet I do not like the colour so therefore it perfectly offends my eyes and imperfectly meets my intended purpose for owning it.. It is not the tent that is imperfect. The imperfection lies in the tent's failure to accommodate personal want.



Even though it is true to some degree to say that the tent is not perfect (perfect being an implied personal opinion), it is simply misleading to lead into a discussion with such a statement. It sparks confussion amongst fellow conversers because your definition seems to contrast with theirs, when in actuality a failure to realize that it was not your definition, but your inadequacy in accurately describing your meaning, which throws them off in the first place.



To often it seems people fail to understand what they mean before they say it.



On another level of understanding:

Why does everything have to be perfect? Why does anything have to be perfect? Why do things have to be imperfect? THEY DON'T. The word perfect and any of its derivatives are OPTIONAL descriptions one can use to describe a vast amount of recognized reality, provided it is used in conjunction with a series of other words in a manner in which they are deemed decipherable by the audience. If the audience does not understand what you mean then you are not speaking their language(and if someone told me this here in Corpus I would say that is because no one here speaks english.. sorry that was mean.(although you would have to live here to understand it)).



But, since we are all already on a similar wavelength in attempting to describe a complex set of ideas, values, concepts, emotions, and or translations thereof.....

I propose these questions for everyone to answer personally:



-What is your definition of perfect as applied to whatever current discussion you may be involved in, including this one?

-What is something that to you is perfect (simple and complex issues, ideas or objects.)?

-Do you honestly think that everyone feels it is perfect just as you do?

-If so then .. wake up, not everyone feels the same way...

-If no then.. Why say a person is off in their judgement of what is perfect for/ to THEM when you have already established that the judgement in question is not said to be set-in-stone fact, but merely an opinion(s) [*The first step is understanding EXACTLY what the other people MEAN to say. The best way to arrive at this is to use alternate words to describe the same thing, as well as changing the overall sentence/idea structure/formating.]. That is simply saying that perfection derives its meaning from being equally accepted and understood by varying life forms with separate personalities.

A logical deduction?? I think not... >



My opinion: Perfection; It is a community term, not a communal way of describing the same thing. It, for the sake of communicational integrity, should be used within its dictated bounds with logical, thought out and reflected thought (this of course being to the best of the person's ability). Using one word when you really mean something else is misleading and degrades this integrity. It also leads to confussion. I can not understand why people argue over the perfection/imperfection of conflicting opinions. YES, IT IS PERFECT!





Unsincerely,

Devil's advocate...

hello?

Posted: 14th Mar 2005
heh.. seemed like the convo. was stagnant... thought that might stimulate some more interesting dialogue.. please don't pick it apart for grammar, spelling or for its underlying BS tone.. lol

Tis 3AM, the morning after a long day with little sleep, and I am now off to bed. Ciao..

hello?

Posted: 14th Mar 2005
that sure was a long post.
if only my attention span was as long as my..
um.
if only it was bigger than what it is now.
was that a stoned rant, or what, infra?

those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

Posted: 14th Mar 2005

Written by: shen shui

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that sure was a long post.
if only my attention span was as long as my..
um.
if only it was bigger than what it is now.
was that a stoned rant, or what, infra?

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If you think that is long I would hate to see your expression when someone places a book in front of you.

I am sorry if you are unable to make it through the post.. Maybe try taking five minute breaks every couple sentences.

No it was not a stoned rant. I was bored and tired. And if you are ever able to read it, there are a couple logical points in there... a couple.... I think... Either way it was a good time occupier.

Sorry for the length though. If it hurts your eyes don't read it..

hello?

Posted: 14th Mar 2005
I've been reading this thread, and have a few thoughts.
First of all, if so-called "mundane" jobs like construction were all taken over by robots, I think I would hurl myself off of a bridge..
You see, becoming a Crane operator is the first job I've wanted with all my heart. It's not a glamourous or glitzy job, but it strikes me as alot more exiting than sitting at a desk all day. I relate to cranes and buildings the way that many other pagans relate to trees and animals, so it's only natural that I would desire to work with them. If all these jobs were eliminated, maybe I could go on to make a living as an artist..but what about most of the other construction workers? Many of them are happy with their jobs, and do them well. Take that away from them, and what would they have left?

Also, the comments about drugs and alcohol. I am strongly against prohibition- we tried it with alcohol, and it was a tragic joke. In fact, it helped give rise to the spectre of organized crime in North America, a tragic, unintended consequence if there ever was one. Making it illegal did not take away people's desire for it. It was just driven underground. Now personally, I don't drink that much. I simply don't choose to buy alcohol that often, and when I do, it lasts me awhile. I buy nice stuff and savour it, as opposed to buying cheap swill and guzzling. But that's the crux of the matter- choice. I CHOOSE not to buy alcohol often. There's a big difference between choosing not to buy, and having "big brother" tell me that I can't buy it, "For my own good".

As for primitive culture, I would not want to live that way. I'm an urban Pagan through and through. I like my electricity, I like my internet, I like my computer and radio. In fact, the computer is a major artistic tool for me, like others use brushes and paint. Each image I create takes many hours of often painstaking work. Anyone who claims that computer art is just "a click of the mouse" or "Hitting the keyboard" is completely ignorant of the real work involved. It's like dismissing a more traditional work by saying "Oh, it's just a few slaps with a brush" or "Just a few scratches with a pencil".

Sure, our modern society has problems. But it's also got alot of positives. Modern medicine, for one. It used to be that if you lost a limb, you were pretty much screwed for life. Now, it's possible to re-attach severed body parts in some cases, and in the near future, it may be possible to grow new ones for those who need them. It used to be that somebody with defective organs was fated to die, there was no help for it. Now, organ transplants, artificial replacements, and other treatments save thousands of lives a year. If cloning technology develops this way, even more lives may be saved, as there will be no further need for cadaver donors- create a brand new healthy organ using the patient's own DNA- no dead donors, no rejection.

Advances in construction have made it possible to house far more people comfortably on less land- large apartment buildings and condos like the ones we have now would have been impossible 100 years ago. A decent apartment building nowdays may be able to house easily 100 families or more, with sufficient space and comfort levels unthinkable in ages past.

We are also much better at growing and producing food than ever before- in most cases, hunger is the fault of poor food distribution as opposed to supply. So no, I don't see myself giving up the modern life for some primitive utopia anytime soon. I believe that the gods gave us our brains for a reason- we were meant to use our gifts to make the world better, not chuck them all out and go live like cavemen. Of course, we have the responsibility to make good choices- Develop environmentally healthy energy sources, such as wind and solar power..Bring these technologies into widespread use- imagine if houses with windmills and solar panels were the rule rather than the exception? And this is just the beginning- right now, there are so many things we could be doing that we're not- things that would make the world better without having to throw our entire way of life out with the bathwater.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of Tower Cranes, for you are soft and would look better when squashed by a full concrete bucket"

Posted: 14th Mar 2005
thanks for caring.

maybe i'll get my mum to read it to me before i go to bed....!

those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

Posted: 14th Mar 2005
*takes big gasp after reading a lot of mind twisting thoughts*

my personal view of perfect is its relative, just as einsteins moving light clocks both looked slower to the other person, perfect is a matter of personal choise. that much i agree with but i dont think the past is perfect - it is mearly one possible out come from thousands - perfect to produce the current situation but that is no more perfect than anything else - perfection relies on a self aware mind to realise and interprt it.

in a similar way nothing can be universally perfect - unless everything with in that universe is considered perfect, a perfect being would have to be perfect in everyway and not all definitions of perfect are positive - you can be perfectly evil yet at the same time the being would need to be perfectly good.

in this way only lesser perfections are atainable - relfections and aspects of perfection in one way.

*runs out of cohearant things to say and goes back to wondering if its possible to apply specific relativity to the perfect of events....

back

Posted: 17th Mar 2005
infra, with things not having to be perfect or imperfect, you mean like the buhhdist theory of just seeing things as they are, not trying to fit them in a catagory?

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

Posted: 17th Mar 2005
amanita as in the muscaria variety?

those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

Posted: 26th Mar 2005
I have been really busy with school and work, but I still mean to supply and answer to your question Mr Majestik.

hello?

Posted: 26th Mar 2005
you just haven't had time i suppose?

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley