Forums > Social Chat > The new homophobia
Login/Join to ParticipateDreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
Posted:
I've started to notice a new trend, at least in america. People are starting to tell their children (and aquantinces, whatever) that there is nothing wrong with homosexuals. They are regular human beings, should be treated like it, and deserve all (well, ok, most) of the rights of a normal human being. Their (children, friends) should treat homosexuals as such.
But said (child/friend/aquantince) should not be a homosexual themselves, b/c it is not ok for them to be homosexual, just, "other people."
Anyone else seeing this? What do you think?
At the very least, I've noticed that it means the kids are still afraid of their own desires.
I've started to notice a new trend, at least in america. People are starting to tell their children (and aquantinces, whatever) that there is nothing wrong with homosexuals. They are regular human beings, should be treated like it, and deserve all (well, ok, most) of the rights of a normal human being. Their (children, friends) should treat homosexuals as such.
But said (child/friend/aquantince) should not be a homosexual themselves, b/c it is not ok for them to be homosexual, just, "other people."
Anyone else seeing this? What do you think?
At the very least, I've noticed that it means the kids are still afraid of their own desires.
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
SILVER Member
Tantamount to fatuity
15,967 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Tantamount to fatuity
15,967 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Posted:
I wasn't going to post in this diatribe but i feel ever slightly incensed....
frostypaw -There are all black schools and all jewish, all muslim and all catholic ones for that matter.
Some of them in the city you live in. Try to think about things before you write them down. That way people will pay more attention to your opinion.
Ok kids - everyone go back to shouting the same facts over and over in slightly differing ways.
I wasn't going to post in this diatribe but i feel ever slightly incensed....
frostypaw -There are all black schools and all jewish, all muslim and all catholic ones for that matter.
Some of them in the city you live in. Try to think about things before you write them down. That way people will pay more attention to your opinion.
Ok kids - everyone go back to shouting the same facts over and over in slightly differing ways.
Meh
member
6 posts
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
6 posts
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Posted:
Ray,
If you feel that you can truly choose who you can lust after or be attracted to, male or female, then you must be lucky enough to be bisexual!
best of both worlds
Such feelings aren't the same for everyone however, including myself. I can appreciate a pretty girl, and have had many as best friends, but I have never been able to fall in love with, or felt a sexual attraction toward a female.
However, put a nice looking dude in front of me and certain feelings take over and, um, tend to "erect" themselves. I have no choice in such feelings, exept for as you stated before, the choice to live my life in misery by not acting on my feelings. It's in my nature and programming, and for me, a beautiful thing!
Ray,
If you feel that you can truly choose who you can lust after or be attracted to, male or female, then you must be lucky enough to be bisexual!
best of both worlds
Such feelings aren't the same for everyone however, including myself. I can appreciate a pretty girl, and have had many as best friends, but I have never been able to fall in love with, or felt a sexual attraction toward a female.
However, put a nice looking dude in front of me and certain feelings take over and, um, tend to "erect" themselves. I have no choice in such feelings, exept for as you stated before, the choice to live my life in misery by not acting on my feelings. It's in my nature and programming, and for me, a beautiful thing!
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
I think it is a desire of what you want.
I was tought that if you put enough thought and faith into something, when the time is right you can accomplish anything.
Like I said before if you want to you will if you really dont want something or someone then you wont.
I think it is a desire of what you want.
I was tought that if you put enough thought and faith into something, when the time is right you can accomplish anything.
Like I said before if you want to you will if you really dont want something or someone then you wont.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
member
340 posts
Location: Australia
340 posts
Location: Australia
Posted:
quote:I prefer head to toe. Toe to toe would mean I'm getting a blowjob from a midget which is now on my "to do" list.
Yah well if you can stand toe to toe and get or give a blowjob then I just wont say another thing on subject!
HOW TO FLY 101:
step 1. Throw your self at the ground.
step 2. Miss.
GOLD Member
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
quote:ha ha hahahahahahahahaha BANG!....oops....sorry, fell off my chair.... good call.
Ok kids - everyone go back to shouting the same facts over and over in slightly differing ways.
"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Dentrassi, who is your quote from... the one in your siggy??
Sorry to get off topic
Dentrassi, who is your quote from... the one in your siggy??
Sorry to get off topic
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
GOLD Member
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
back to the refreshing off-topicity of rays request, the first part of my sig is a melding of several douglas adams references, the below quote is from Blackadder -series 4- Blackadder Goes Fourth, based in the trenches in WWI. the episode in which baldrick's impersonation of Charlie Chaplin involve balancing a slug under his nose, ellicting the Capt Blackadder's wonderful analogy.
be cool frostpaw. no need to get personal. the comment may not have been intended to be as harsh as you may have interpreted it. it's sometimes hard to tell the tone of voice of a comment when its in text form.
take care all.
back to the refreshing off-topicity of rays request, the first part of my sig is a melding of several douglas adams references, the below quote is from Blackadder -series 4- Blackadder Goes Fourth, based in the trenches in WWI. the episode in which baldrick's impersonation of Charlie Chaplin involve balancing a slug under his nose, ellicting the Capt Blackadder's wonderful analogy.
be cool frostpaw. no need to get personal. the comment may not have been intended to be as harsh as you may have interpreted it. it's sometimes hard to tell the tone of voice of a comment when its in text form.
take care all.
"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
member
53 posts
Location: Brisvegas, Aus
53 posts
Location: Brisvegas, Aus
Posted:
back to the new homophobia thing...
i think its definitely happening, more people are outwardly accepting homosexuality because of the fear of being called homophobic, but alot of these people don't fully beleive in the equality of homosexual people and often don't want to be involved with them on a personal level.
i was fortunate to grow up with two 'uncles' (my mums two best male friends who were partners) who were a huge part of my life. also, my auntie is homosexual and it is not an issue in our family. because of that i have always seen homosexuality as a non-issue, as something that is normal...
this said, my parents have always said that although they would fully accept and support me if i was to be a lesbian, they hoped for my sake that i wouldnt be, as they had seen the struggles and social descrimination that homosexuals often face. i dont think its hypocritical, i honestly think they are just looking out for me...
there are so many different opinions in society about this that theres bound to be controversy (thats why this thread has gone on for so long!), but at least its better than only having one opinion - that gay is bad.
anyways, thats just my ramblings... just thought id say the same thing in yet another way
back to the new homophobia thing...
i think its definitely happening, more people are outwardly accepting homosexuality because of the fear of being called homophobic, but alot of these people don't fully beleive in the equality of homosexual people and often don't want to be involved with them on a personal level.
i was fortunate to grow up with two 'uncles' (my mums two best male friends who were partners) who were a huge part of my life. also, my auntie is homosexual and it is not an issue in our family. because of that i have always seen homosexuality as a non-issue, as something that is normal...
this said, my parents have always said that although they would fully accept and support me if i was to be a lesbian, they hoped for my sake that i wouldnt be, as they had seen the struggles and social descrimination that homosexuals often face. i dont think its hypocritical, i honestly think they are just looking out for me...
there are so many different opinions in society about this that theres bound to be controversy (thats why this thread has gone on for so long!), but at least its better than only having one opinion - that gay is bad.
anyways, thats just my ramblings... just thought id say the same thing in yet another way
--*SaM*--
member
106 posts
Location: BC, Canada
106 posts
Location: BC, Canada
Posted:
It doesn't help the situation much either when on Wednesday, President George Bush said in a news conference that marriage was defined strictly as a union between a man and a woman and that he wants to "codify that one way or the other." Then here in Canada the Vatican is calling all Catholic politicians saying they have a "moral duty" to oppose laws granting legal rights to gay couples. As a society hope our leaders keep in mind the diversity of their people when making decisions. If you are a person trying to figure out your sexuality it's a lot harder to come to terms with when not only people around you but your own government is saying it's wrong and illegal. The reason African-Americans have progress in society is because people stop fearing what they didn't understand and saw the beauty in their culture. So much so that it's history is taught in school and celebrated. Why are parents afraid that their children will be homosexual? Because they'll be treated badly in society? Because family, friends, their church won't approve? Like I said people fear what they don't understand. By saying that homosexuality is something you choose you'er saying it's something you don't understand. I have never heard a gay person say it was a choice that could be turn on or off without sacrificing their own happiness.
The agrument that homosexuality is morally wrong makes no sense to me. What is morally wrong about 2 people that have found unconditional love for eachother? What harm can come from that union and why not have the right to profess that love in a church before god, who loves all.
Unlike Ray I do see a lot of positive changes. Here in Vancouver we are in the middle of Pride Week whose highlight, Pride Parade attracts over 100,000 people. A few blocks away from me a Baptist church recently married a gay couple, the canadian government is redefining marriage, some schools are introducing books to help children learn that some kids have 2 moms, or 2 dads and that's ok. All these things go a long way to helping people understand and be more tolerant of eachother.
It doesn't help the situation much either when on Wednesday, President George Bush said in a news conference that marriage was defined strictly as a union between a man and a woman and that he wants to "codify that one way or the other." Then here in Canada the Vatican is calling all Catholic politicians saying they have a "moral duty" to oppose laws granting legal rights to gay couples. As a society hope our leaders keep in mind the diversity of their people when making decisions. If you are a person trying to figure out your sexuality it's a lot harder to come to terms with when not only people around you but your own government is saying it's wrong and illegal. The reason African-Americans have progress in society is because people stop fearing what they didn't understand and saw the beauty in their culture. So much so that it's history is taught in school and celebrated. Why are parents afraid that their children will be homosexual? Because they'll be treated badly in society? Because family, friends, their church won't approve? Like I said people fear what they don't understand. By saying that homosexuality is something you choose you'er saying it's something you don't understand. I have never heard a gay person say it was a choice that could be turn on or off without sacrificing their own happiness.
The agrument that homosexuality is morally wrong makes no sense to me. What is morally wrong about 2 people that have found unconditional love for eachother? What harm can come from that union and why not have the right to profess that love in a church before god, who loves all.
Unlike Ray I do see a lot of positive changes. Here in Vancouver we are in the middle of Pride Week whose highlight, Pride Parade attracts over 100,000 people. A few blocks away from me a Baptist church recently married a gay couple, the canadian government is redefining marriage, some schools are introducing books to help children learn that some kids have 2 moms, or 2 dads and that's ok. All these things go a long way to helping people understand and be more tolerant of eachother.
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
It is my belief that being gay is moraly wrong.
So is alot of other things.
Should someone be treated differently if they were to have an affair? Should the husband or wife, or even the person who they had the affair with get college schollerships? Maybe a special highschool set up for their children?
Sounds pathetic doesnt it?
Thats how I see this "special treatment", pathetic.
Nobody deserves to get anything based on sex, race, creed, religion or sexual preferance.
I do believe that it is wrong to exclude someone based only on the above, but it should not be a basis for a job position.
Alot of companies are afraid of being called predjudice, or homophobic. So they set up these quotas that must be filled.
Look at how diverse we are. We look good dont we?
This is right, it isnt ethical.
I dont believe it is illeagle by the laws of man, it is no crime and it should not be seen as a crime. I would never support anyone who says otherwise.
Acceptance is needed, ignorance should not be tolerated because it can lead down a very bad road. However, for a church of God (and by this I do mean a Christian church) to say that homosexuality is moal, that is flat out hogwash!
If you read in the Bible about Sodom and Gomorrah, (Starting at Gen. 19) you will read about how two cities were destroyed becuase of the immorality in them. Two angels came to visit Lot and before the night was out 4"all the men from every part of the city of Sodom -both young and old- surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, 'Where are those men who came to you in the night? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.'
Hrm does that sound like homosexuality to you? It does to me.
If you continue to read, you will see that Lot offerd his virgin daughters to the men to get them to leave. They didnt want them.
Later, Sodom was destroyed, you will also note that none survived except for Lot and his family. So if homosexuality is moraly acceptable, why would God wipe out a whole town of gay men?
Go to that baptist church and ask them that, please, I would really like to know their answer. I make no joke nor do I ask that in malace. I would really like to know their idea. Ask them where in the Bible do they see God saying homosexuality is moral and where it should be accepted in the body of Christ?
If you can get chapter and verse where it says this, I will recant everything I ever said about homosexuality.
It is my belief that being gay is moraly wrong.
So is alot of other things.
Should someone be treated differently if they were to have an affair? Should the husband or wife, or even the person who they had the affair with get college schollerships? Maybe a special highschool set up for their children?
Sounds pathetic doesnt it?
Thats how I see this "special treatment", pathetic.
Nobody deserves to get anything based on sex, race, creed, religion or sexual preferance.
I do believe that it is wrong to exclude someone based only on the above, but it should not be a basis for a job position.
Alot of companies are afraid of being called predjudice, or homophobic. So they set up these quotas that must be filled.
Look at how diverse we are. We look good dont we?
This is right, it isnt ethical.
I dont believe it is illeagle by the laws of man, it is no crime and it should not be seen as a crime. I would never support anyone who says otherwise.
Acceptance is needed, ignorance should not be tolerated because it can lead down a very bad road. However, for a church of God (and by this I do mean a Christian church) to say that homosexuality is moal, that is flat out hogwash!
If you read in the Bible about Sodom and Gomorrah, (Starting at Gen. 19) you will read about how two cities were destroyed becuase of the immorality in them. Two angels came to visit Lot and before the night was out 4"all the men from every part of the city of Sodom -both young and old- surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, 'Where are those men who came to you in the night? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.'
Hrm does that sound like homosexuality to you? It does to me.
If you continue to read, you will see that Lot offerd his virgin daughters to the men to get them to leave. They didnt want them.
Later, Sodom was destroyed, you will also note that none survived except for Lot and his family. So if homosexuality is moraly acceptable, why would God wipe out a whole town of gay men?
Go to that baptist church and ask them that, please, I would really like to know their answer. I make no joke nor do I ask that in malace. I would really like to know their idea. Ask them where in the Bible do they see God saying homosexuality is moral and where it should be accepted in the body of Christ?
If you can get chapter and verse where it says this, I will recant everything I ever said about homosexuality.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
I don't want a title.
940 posts
940 posts
Posted:
Have you ever read Sartre's The Flies? It's in the same book as No Exit, I think. Anyway, it's a retelling of the Electra story. Electra and Orestes are brother and sister, there father was the king. The father's friend killed him, married the queen, and became king. Zeus supported this usurper king. Orestes left the kingdom and returned as an adult to kill the usurper. Orestes overhears Zeus telling the usurper that he supports him and wants Orestes dead. When Zeus leaves, Orestes comes in to kill the usurper. The usurper tells him that he can't do that; his God was just there, was just saying that it would be wrong to do that! And Orestes simply replies, "Justice is a matter between men. I need no god to teach me it."
I believe this holds true for morality in general. It is a matter between men [and women]. I need no god to teach me it.
[Disclaimer: I don't mean to denigrate religion. I personally believe that if you want to see homosexuality as immoral, that's your business. I will disagree with you and see it as a shame, but so be it. I think that a great deal of what the church and what the government do is immoral, and that's my business. I'm a bit of a moral subjectivist, anyway.]
quote:Not all of us rely on religion for our moral beliefs.
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
If you can get chapter and verse where it says this, I will recant everything I ever said about homosexuality.
Have you ever read Sartre's The Flies? It's in the same book as No Exit, I think. Anyway, it's a retelling of the Electra story. Electra and Orestes are brother and sister, there father was the king. The father's friend killed him, married the queen, and became king. Zeus supported this usurper king. Orestes left the kingdom and returned as an adult to kill the usurper. Orestes overhears Zeus telling the usurper that he supports him and wants Orestes dead. When Zeus leaves, Orestes comes in to kill the usurper. The usurper tells him that he can't do that; his God was just there, was just saying that it would be wrong to do that! And Orestes simply replies, "Justice is a matter between men. I need no god to teach me it."
I believe this holds true for morality in general. It is a matter between men [and women]. I need no god to teach me it.
[Disclaimer: I don't mean to denigrate religion. I personally believe that if you want to see homosexuality as immoral, that's your business. I will disagree with you and see it as a shame, but so be it. I think that a great deal of what the church and what the government do is immoral, and that's my business. I'm a bit of a moral subjectivist, anyway.]
E pluribus unum, baby.
SILVER Member
Tantamount to fatuity
15,967 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Tantamount to fatuity
15,967 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Posted:
Sorry. In what sense do I look like "a dick"? In the sense that i pointed out that you're wrong?
And why in the name of all the big poopy gibbon gods would i want to add anything to this argument. it's just another forum where everyone shouts at Mr Phule and doesn't bother to step back and say "hey ray, that's your opinion. it's different from mine but all the shouting in the world isn't going to make you change it."
Do you even know who I am? Evidently not. Or else you might have stopped shy of being plainly rude to me. Instead you just really upset me.
Thank you for devaluing yourself in my eyes and removing all the respect I previously had for you.
Great work.
OK children, back to your seats and you can have milk and cookies later...
Sorry. In what sense do I look like "a dick"? In the sense that i pointed out that you're wrong?
And why in the name of all the big poopy gibbon gods would i want to add anything to this argument. it's just another forum where everyone shouts at Mr Phule and doesn't bother to step back and say "hey ray, that's your opinion. it's different from mine but all the shouting in the world isn't going to make you change it."
Do you even know who I am? Evidently not. Or else you might have stopped shy of being plainly rude to me. Instead you just really upset me.
Thank you for devaluing yourself in my eyes and removing all the respect I previously had for you.
Great work.
OK children, back to your seats and you can have milk and cookies later...
Meh
SILVER Member
Tantamount to fatuity
15,967 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Tantamount to fatuity
15,967 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Posted:
Wow. Just checked out your profile. You're actually a few weeks older than my little brother. And there was me thinking you were some teenager....
Silly me.
Wow. Just checked out your profile. You're actually a few weeks older than my little brother. And there was me thinking you were some teenager....
Silly me.
Meh
back from the dead...sort of
884 posts
Location: 43°41'N 79°38'W
884 posts
Location: 43°41'N 79°38'W
Posted:
quote:Agreed. But then why should only heterosexual people get to be married?
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Nobody deserves to get anything based on sex, race, creed, religion or sexual preferance.
SILVER Member
Tantamount to fatuity
15,967 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Tantamount to fatuity
15,967 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Posted:
Oopsie. By saying
What I actually mean is, who are you to judge me? You who don't even know me.
But I spose it's all illelephant anyhoo. You're just gonna be grumpy and post nasty things anyway. Me pointing it out isn't going to change anything.
You're just a horrible person it seems.
So I apologise FrostyPaw. I didn't mean to upset you. Just point out that you're wrong.
Please go back to your angry little world and be bitter about the way that everyone treats you.
Oopsie. By saying
quote:I sound really arrogant don't I?
Do you even know who I am? Evidently not.
What I actually mean is, who are you to judge me? You who don't even know me.
But I spose it's all illelephant anyhoo. You're just gonna be grumpy and post nasty things anyway. Me pointing it out isn't going to change anything.
You're just a horrible person it seems.
So I apologise FrostyPaw. I didn't mean to upset you. Just point out that you're wrong.
Please go back to your angry little world and be bitter about the way that everyone treats you.
Meh
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
C@ntus, I missed something cuause bud... you lost me.
You have every right to choose your own morals and live by them if you choose to. I must admit, I have a friend who I disagree with his (I guess you could call it) religion. Though I must admit, his moral convictions are very strong, stronger than mine. This I respect him for.
Do gay people have the right to be married? First off you must ask if marrage is a right, then you will be able to ask if they have the right to get married. Say it is a right, then yes they have the right to get married. Should a church who considers themselves the body of Christ and believe souly in the Bible and no other book, marry a gay couple? No they should not. However Churches are privet institutions and are allowed by law to admit or refuse anyone whom they see fit.
C@ntus, I missed something cuause bud... you lost me.
You have every right to choose your own morals and live by them if you choose to. I must admit, I have a friend who I disagree with his (I guess you could call it) religion. Though I must admit, his moral convictions are very strong, stronger than mine. This I respect him for.
Do gay people have the right to be married? First off you must ask if marrage is a right, then you will be able to ask if they have the right to get married. Say it is a right, then yes they have the right to get married. Should a church who considers themselves the body of Christ and believe souly in the Bible and no other book, marry a gay couple? No they should not. However Churches are privet institutions and are allowed by law to admit or refuse anyone whom they see fit.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
SILVER Member
Tantamount to fatuity
15,967 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Tantamount to fatuity
15,967 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Posted:
Sorry Ray. Just shouting at Frosty Paw. Read back (bottom of page 1) and you should catch up.
Sorry Ray. Just shouting at Frosty Paw. Read back (bottom of page 1) and you should catch up.
Meh
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
I've been missing some fun here
Ray, when I quoted Leviticus didn't you once tell me that the Old Testament didn't count anymore as Jesus came along and simplified and updated things? I mention it because Genesis is quite definitely in the old testament.
And re-read your bible. The quote is:
Genesis 19.5. and they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
nothing about sex - it'd seem that they wanted to know who the strangers were. Actually I can't find mention that Sodom was a city of gays. Do you know the chapter & verse as I haven't got the time to read the whole thing at the moment.
The marriage thing: the point is that marriage is far from a solely religious act. There's huge legal implications in a marriage. So religions are free to say we won't marry gays, but there should be a way for gay couples to have the same legal rights as married couples.
I've been missing some fun here
Ray, when I quoted Leviticus didn't you once tell me that the Old Testament didn't count anymore as Jesus came along and simplified and updated things? I mention it because Genesis is quite definitely in the old testament.
And re-read your bible. The quote is:
Genesis 19.5. and they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
nothing about sex - it'd seem that they wanted to know who the strangers were. Actually I can't find mention that Sodom was a city of gays. Do you know the chapter & verse as I haven't got the time to read the whole thing at the moment.
The marriage thing: the point is that marriage is far from a solely religious act. There's huge legal implications in a marriage. So religions are free to say we won't marry gays, but there should be a way for gay couples to have the same legal rights as married couples.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
2) Homosexuality is not a choice. I know because I never chose to be gay and I would never choose it. Makes life suck on a number of levels (like the fact that my boyfriend and I can't hold hands in public or kiss in public or enjoy a lot of benefits that married couples could, etc.) However, homosexuality chose me. I chose to be straight for almost 26 years. Didn't work. I'm gay and that's just how it is. I chose homosexuality just as much as I chose my eye color.
Now, do you honestly think I'm lying about this? Remember, I'm an Eagle Scout. I'm not free of moral defect, but I don't lie.
Think it over.
quote:1) Ray, just because it's been 150 years and Blacks and Whites are still not treated equally doesn't mean that we should just give up.
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
The US Civil War ended in what 1866? Are black people treated exactly the same as white? True, thing are evolving faster for homosexuals but I have no reason to believe that they will be treated as 100% equals for a very very long time.
Should I encourage them to be gay? No, should I encourage them to be strait, well it is my belief that homosexuality is a choice. Just like a lightbulb it can be turned off and turned on, it might not be as quick but I feel its a choice.
2) Homosexuality is not a choice. I know because I never chose to be gay and I would never choose it. Makes life suck on a number of levels (like the fact that my boyfriend and I can't hold hands in public or kiss in public or enjoy a lot of benefits that married couples could, etc.) However, homosexuality chose me. I chose to be straight for almost 26 years. Didn't work. I'm gay and that's just how it is. I chose homosexuality just as much as I chose my eye color.
Now, do you honestly think I'm lying about this? Remember, I'm an Eagle Scout. I'm not free of moral defect, but I don't lie.
Think it over.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Okay, alot of people missreading what I have said.
Dom, what I said was in referance to Law, not written history. Just because Jesus came, doesnt undo David and Goliath. His word changed Law not history. Another thing, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is at the very begining of Chapter 19. Umm It doesnt even go into Chapter 20. If you dont have the time to look it up, you dont have time to read all I have written here and the verses. Like you my time is limited so I wont be writing the whole thing down, if you wish knowlege you will have to aquire it yourself.
Mike, I never said that anyone should give up, I dont know where you got that idea. My point was, that there is going to be some hard times ahead. I doubt anyone will disagree with me on that. Nothing is ever easy.
Mike, my opinion is that you can choose your partners both in physical apperance and in sex. You feel otherwise, thats your opinion and your entitled to it.
I hope you have a happy life, but I dont agree with it.
Okay, alot of people missreading what I have said.
Dom, what I said was in referance to Law, not written history. Just because Jesus came, doesnt undo David and Goliath. His word changed Law not history. Another thing, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is at the very begining of Chapter 19. Umm It doesnt even go into Chapter 20. If you dont have the time to look it up, you dont have time to read all I have written here and the verses. Like you my time is limited so I wont be writing the whole thing down, if you wish knowlege you will have to aquire it yourself.
Mike, I never said that anyone should give up, I dont know where you got that idea. My point was, that there is going to be some hard times ahead. I doubt anyone will disagree with me on that. Nothing is ever easy.
Mike, my opinion is that you can choose your partners both in physical apperance and in sex. You feel otherwise, thats your opinion and your entitled to it.
I hope you have a happy life, but I dont agree with it.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
Exactly, Sodom et al is history, not religious law. Because slavery was a standard in religous history is it ok now?
I don't get the chapter 20 comment. I did look it up. My quote is exactly what is says in the bible. As you know I look up and double check everything I post.
So, I've read what you've written, and I've corrected your Bible quotes. As you base your views on religion and what the bible says I expect you to know exactly where the Bible says homosexuality is wrong and why. If you can't then the basis for your opinions on this matter is currently worthless.
Exactly, Sodom et al is history, not religious law. Because slavery was a standard in religous history is it ok now?
I don't get the chapter 20 comment. I did look it up. My quote is exactly what is says in the bible. As you know I look up and double check everything I post.
So, I've read what you've written, and I've corrected your Bible quotes. As you base your views on religion and what the bible says I expect you to know exactly where the Bible says homosexuality is wrong and why. If you can't then the basis for your opinions on this matter is currently worthless.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Ray, you are correct that I can choose a female partner. In fact, that's exactly what I did. It is, of course, a choice to live a homosexual lifestyle.
What I can't choose is the gender to which I am attracted. And in that sense, I did not choose to be gay. The choice was whether to continue to live a lie and to be miserable and alone, or to be honest with myself and with the world and allow myself to experience romance, sex, and relationships.
I chose the latter. I'm sorry you think it's immoral for me to be happy.
Ray, you are correct that I can choose a female partner. In fact, that's exactly what I did. It is, of course, a choice to live a homosexual lifestyle.
What I can't choose is the gender to which I am attracted. And in that sense, I did not choose to be gay. The choice was whether to continue to live a lie and to be miserable and alone, or to be honest with myself and with the world and allow myself to experience romance, sex, and relationships.
I chose the latter. I'm sorry you think it's immoral for me to be happy.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Mike, sex isnt the only way to be happy. I am sure you know this. A relationship with whoever isnt the only way to be happy. By the way, your in America, you dont have the right to be happy only to persue happyness, but thats a whole other topic.
Dom, the story of Sodom starts at the begining of Chapter 19. Am I not correct? The 3rd word there is angels. (atleast in my version) In verse 8 is where you see the men of the city saying that they want to have sex with the two angels.
Now men saying they want to have sex with other men... to me that sounds like homosexuality. Now, the city was destroied, would you not think that God viewd homosexuality is wrong? I mean he wiped out a city that was full of homosexuality. It was important enough to be put in the Bible so obviusly there is something to be taken from this.
God did not like Sodom, or the people in it. So he wiped it off the face of the earth, and the people in it too. The city was full of gay men, they were wiped off the face of the earth. If you put 1 and 1 together and get 2, you will also beable to see that God does not like homosexuality.
Do I need to make it plainer to you Dom? Or are you just trying to contradict me for an argument?
If you need more proof, and it is in the New Testiment, read 1st Corinthians chapter 6 verses 9-10. I'll even write it down for you.
"9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor aldulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor the drunkards nor slanderers nor sindlers will inherit the Kingom of God."
So... what does that mean, if God doesnt want homosexuals in Heaven (Kingdom of God) then it must be obvius that he doesnt like them.
Please check what I have said.
Mike, sex isnt the only way to be happy. I am sure you know this. A relationship with whoever isnt the only way to be happy. By the way, your in America, you dont have the right to be happy only to persue happyness, but thats a whole other topic.
Dom, the story of Sodom starts at the begining of Chapter 19. Am I not correct? The 3rd word there is angels. (atleast in my version) In verse 8 is where you see the men of the city saying that they want to have sex with the two angels.
Now men saying they want to have sex with other men... to me that sounds like homosexuality. Now, the city was destroied, would you not think that God viewd homosexuality is wrong? I mean he wiped out a city that was full of homosexuality. It was important enough to be put in the Bible so obviusly there is something to be taken from this.
God did not like Sodom, or the people in it. So he wiped it off the face of the earth, and the people in it too. The city was full of gay men, they were wiped off the face of the earth. If you put 1 and 1 together and get 2, you will also beable to see that God does not like homosexuality.
Do I need to make it plainer to you Dom? Or are you just trying to contradict me for an argument?
If you need more proof, and it is in the New Testiment, read 1st Corinthians chapter 6 verses 9-10. I'll even write it down for you.
"9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor aldulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor the drunkards nor slanderers nor sindlers will inherit the Kingom of God."
So... what does that mean, if God doesnt want homosexuals in Heaven (Kingdom of God) then it must be obvius that he doesnt like them.
Please check what I have said.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Ray, the fundamental flaw in your argument is that I don't believe in the Bible. I think it's a load of horse droppings.
So with that, the whole argument falls apart.
Ray, the fundamental flaw in your argument is that I don't believe in the Bible. I think it's a load of horse droppings.
So with that, the whole argument falls apart.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Really, wow, whoed thunk it. I thought you were what every God fearing Christian wanted to be like... imagine my shock!
Another thing, I am not arguing, I am explaining what I am basing my opinion off of.
Besides just incase you dropped your glasses when you bent over, I was talking to Dom
Really, wow, whoed thunk it. I thought you were what every God fearing Christian wanted to be like... imagine my shock!
Another thing, I am not arguing, I am explaining what I am basing my opinion off of.
Besides just incase you dropped your glasses when you bent over, I was talking to Dom
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Ray, I was only bending over for you, honey.
Ray, I was only bending over for you, honey.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
I’m intrigued as to which version of the Bible you’re reading. Having so many versions of biblical texts highlights a fundamental problem with those who claim the Bible contains the true words of God. My suspicions about your quote were raised as the word sex only appears a handful of times in the Bible.
I found some on the internet:
American Standard Version
King James Version
Revised standard Version
Sodom and Gomorrah are mentioned from chapters 10 to 19, they were key cities of the time. The Bible states “the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners against Jehovah exceedingly”.
The Corinthians quote is a bit more like I was looking for, but again your Bible is different to the ones I checked:
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,” The phrase “abusers of themselves with mankind” is a bit sketchy as to it’s true meaning, could be a number of things.
And I don’t know how you think you can choose your romantic partners! You do not choose who you find attractive and you love who you love. You do not choose!
It’s also interesting to note that you are a perfect example of the kind of person Kyri started this thread about. You’re anti-gay, but put up a façade of tolerance. Surely you should be condemning Mike, telling him to go get exorcised or else he’ll burn in the fiery pits of hell?
And Cantus – I am truly interested in how Ray thinks. I do tend to have a dig at him, but I do really find these discussions interesting. And it’s a forum for discussing things, not just long threads of inane nonsense.
I’m intrigued as to which version of the Bible you’re reading. Having so many versions of biblical texts highlights a fundamental problem with those who claim the Bible contains the true words of God. My suspicions about your quote were raised as the word sex only appears a handful of times in the Bible.
I found some on the internet:
American Standard Version
King James Version
Revised standard Version
Sodom and Gomorrah are mentioned from chapters 10 to 19, they were key cities of the time. The Bible states “the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners against Jehovah exceedingly”.
The Corinthians quote is a bit more like I was looking for, but again your Bible is different to the ones I checked:
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,” The phrase “abusers of themselves with mankind” is a bit sketchy as to it’s true meaning, could be a number of things.
And I don’t know how you think you can choose your romantic partners! You do not choose who you find attractive and you love who you love. You do not choose!
It’s also interesting to note that you are a perfect example of the kind of person Kyri started this thread about. You’re anti-gay, but put up a façade of tolerance. Surely you should be condemning Mike, telling him to go get exorcised or else he’ll burn in the fiery pits of hell?
And Cantus – I am truly interested in how Ray thinks. I do tend to have a dig at him, but I do really find these discussions interesting. And it’s a forum for discussing things, not just long threads of inane nonsense.
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
I’m intrigued as to which version of the Bible you’re reading. Having so many versions of biblical texts highlights a fundamental problem with those who claim the Bible contains the true words of God. My suspicions about your quote were raised as the word sex only appears a handful of times in the Bible.
I found some on the internet:
American Standard Version
King James Version
Revised standard Version
Sodom and Gomorrah are mentioned from chapters 10 to 19, they were key cities of the time. The Bible states “the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners against Jehovah exceedingly”.
The Corinthians quote is a bit more like I was looking for, but again your Bible is different to the ones I checked:
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,” The phrase “abusers of themselves with mankind” is a bit sketchy as to it’s true meaning, could be a number of things.
And I don’t know how you think you can choose your romantic partners! You do not choose who you find attractive and you love who you love. You do not choose!
It’s also interesting to note that you are a perfect example of the kind of person Kyri started this thread about. You’re anti-gay, but put up a façade of tolerance. Surely you should be condemning Mike, telling him to go get exorcised or else he’ll burn in the fiery pits of hell?
And Cantus – I am truly interested in how Ray thinks. I do tend to have a dig at him, but I do really find these discussions interesting. And it’s a forum for discussing things, not just long threads of inane nonsense.
I’m intrigued as to which version of the Bible you’re reading. Having so many versions of biblical texts highlights a fundamental problem with those who claim the Bible contains the true words of God. My suspicions about your quote were raised as the word sex only appears a handful of times in the Bible.
I found some on the internet:
American Standard Version
King James Version
Revised standard Version
Sodom and Gomorrah are mentioned from chapters 10 to 19, they were key cities of the time. The Bible states “the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners against Jehovah exceedingly”.
The Corinthians quote is a bit more like I was looking for, but again your Bible is different to the ones I checked:
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,” The phrase “abusers of themselves with mankind” is a bit sketchy as to it’s true meaning, could be a number of things.
And I don’t know how you think you can choose your romantic partners! You do not choose who you find attractive and you love who you love. You do not choose!
It’s also interesting to note that you are a perfect example of the kind of person Kyri started this thread about. You’re anti-gay, but put up a façade of tolerance. Surely you should be condemning Mike, telling him to go get exorcised or else he’ll burn in the fiery pits of hell?
And Cantus – I am truly interested in how Ray thinks. I do tend to have a dig at him, but I do really find these discussions interesting. And it’s a forum for discussing things, not just long threads of inane nonsense.
member
53 posts
Location: auckland
53 posts
Location: auckland
Posted:
anyone who bases their belief that homosexuality is immoral on biblical references is fine with me, because they're obviously either insane or dull-witted.
it's the people who do not believe in god and still think it's "unnatural" that really irk me.
anyone who bases their belief that homosexuality is immoral on biblical references is fine with me, because they're obviously either insane or dull-witted.
it's the people who do not believe in god and still think it's "unnatural" that really irk me.
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Actually it is the NIV New Interantional Version. Anybody who is absurd enough to try to use something like the American Standerd as some bull shit anti-America/Bush/Clinton/war/whatever is just plane ignorant and should haze themselves. Some translations can be harder to understand, I mean the KJV has been around what two-hundred, two-hundred fifty years?? Maybe longer... I bet though that the people back then understood it, mainly because they spoke like that, but that was just different times. No one interpritation is right no one interpritation is wrong.
Dom, would you say that there is a differance between anti-gay and homophobic? If so, then you probably could say that I am anti-gay, scared of gay people... that I am truly not.
Am I fool for believing in God, or the Bible? I know the answer to that, but you all wouldnt believe me anyway, so lets just wait untill we die to finish that discussion.
Ohh and I am very much insaine, sanity is so boring, you cant have fun in life if your saine.
Dom, are you still dating the first person you ever dated? If not then right there is how you choose your romatic partners. You probably chose another, she was probably in a similer situation and chose you.
Mike is more than welcome to live out his life the way he chooses, I dont agree with it, but then again there is alot of things I dont agree with.
I have been deployed for almost a year now, do you really think that every married Marine with me has obstained from having sex just because they arnt with their wives? Have I ran off to tell their wives? No, I believe when the time is right, either A they will see the error of their ways and come clean, or B their past will catch up to them one way or another, in one life or another.
Mike is a big boy now, capable of making his own decisions and accountable for his own actions, I may not agree with him, but I am not going to sit there and pound a Bible ontop of his head.
I will present my opinion with my facts, and let it be. However if either come under rebute or attack, I will defend them with everything I have.
C@ntus, hehe Dom and I do this once every few months, it is actually quite fun. Dom is better at arguing than I am, it presents a challenge. Learning to keep emotion out of my posts as much as possible is another challenge, but a fun one as well. However if someone bites me I bite back!
Frostypaw, there comes a time when you need to stop pushing and realise that the discussion you were having 2 posts ago has now become and emotional fight. You may feel that someones reasons are
Dom, in all honesty, I am tired of tellign people that I think drugs are wrong, that I think homosexuality is wrong, things like that, because nobody seems to listen. Alot of people just want to tell me how closed-minded I am becuase I do not agree with their opinions, I mean isnt that being hypocritical? If you have the right to your opinion then I have the right to mine. It isnt closed-minded of me to think that I am rite and your wrong, if it isnt closed-minded for you to think that your right and I am wrong.
If someone really wants to know why I believe how I believe, I will be glad to tell them, if they are just asking questions to get a rise out of me... well hell they can jump off the Empire State Building and hope to catch their eyelid on a nail!
Actually it is the NIV New Interantional Version. Anybody who is absurd enough to try to use something like the American Standerd as some bull shit anti-America/Bush/Clinton/war/whatever is just plane ignorant and should haze themselves. Some translations can be harder to understand, I mean the KJV has been around what two-hundred, two-hundred fifty years?? Maybe longer... I bet though that the people back then understood it, mainly because they spoke like that, but that was just different times. No one interpritation is right no one interpritation is wrong.
Dom, would you say that there is a differance between anti-gay and homophobic? If so, then you probably could say that I am anti-gay, scared of gay people... that I am truly not.
Am I fool for believing in God, or the Bible? I know the answer to that, but you all wouldnt believe me anyway, so lets just wait untill we die to finish that discussion.
Ohh and I am very much insaine, sanity is so boring, you cant have fun in life if your saine.
Dom, are you still dating the first person you ever dated? If not then right there is how you choose your romatic partners. You probably chose another, she was probably in a similer situation and chose you.
Mike is more than welcome to live out his life the way he chooses, I dont agree with it, but then again there is alot of things I dont agree with.
I have been deployed for almost a year now, do you really think that every married Marine with me has obstained from having sex just because they arnt with their wives? Have I ran off to tell their wives? No, I believe when the time is right, either A they will see the error of their ways and come clean, or B their past will catch up to them one way or another, in one life or another.
Mike is a big boy now, capable of making his own decisions and accountable for his own actions, I may not agree with him, but I am not going to sit there and pound a Bible ontop of his head.
I will present my opinion with my facts, and let it be. However if either come under rebute or attack, I will defend them with everything I have.
C@ntus, hehe Dom and I do this once every few months, it is actually quite fun. Dom is better at arguing than I am, it presents a challenge. Learning to keep emotion out of my posts as much as possible is another challenge, but a fun one as well. However if someone bites me I bite back!
Frostypaw, there comes a time when you need to stop pushing and realise that the discussion you were having 2 posts ago has now become and emotional fight. You may feel that someones reasons are
quote:but some may not see them as desperate.
desperate
Dom, in all honesty, I am tired of tellign people that I think drugs are wrong, that I think homosexuality is wrong, things like that, because nobody seems to listen. Alot of people just want to tell me how closed-minded I am becuase I do not agree with their opinions, I mean isnt that being hypocritical? If you have the right to your opinion then I have the right to mine. It isnt closed-minded of me to think that I am rite and your wrong, if it isnt closed-minded for you to think that your right and I am wrong.
If someone really wants to know why I believe how I believe, I will be glad to tell them, if they are just asking questions to get a rise out of me... well hell they can jump off the Empire State Building and hope to catch their eyelid on a nail!
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
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