Forums > Social Discussion > Competitiveness
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Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Posted:
I've just been thinking about this after reading some posts on various messageboards (both spinny and non-spinny) and thought I'd see what everyone elses oppinions are.
Everything (as far as I can see) always becomes competitive at some point. Whether this is in education (competing with peers for the best grades) or an art form (such as poi) or anything else this always seems to be the case.
As a DJ I've grown to despise this. I've been mixing for years BUT have never felt the need to 'prove myself' in a DJ competition. I just dont see competition as being part of the art. Instead I like to encourage co-operation. Playing back to back (a couple of records each) with someone is far more fun to all involved (DJ's and the audience). I see playing this way as a learning experience where you can pick up tips from the other person and combine your skills so that you both improve. In the early days of hip-hop DJ's used to meet for 'jam sessions'. Now people just compete for an audiences approval.
One of the things that first attracted me to poi (,staff, devilstick, etc) was the feeling that the majority of people who are involved in these art forms share my love of, well, sharing. At first it seemed as though everyone I met was only interested in helping each other get better at whatever skill they wanted to learn. However the attitude mentioned in [Old link] has become more and more apparent to me. There seem to be so many people setting up competitions to decide 'who is the best'. This seems to go against what spining is for me. I like to see people that have amazing skills but I dont think that we need to compete for this.
I am generally anti-competitive. I dont believe that it helps in any situation. I believe in co-operation and the sharing of ideas to adapt and improve them. 'Two heads are better than one' and all the other cliche's.
I actually think my my views on this were caused by my school years where I was pretty much forced by my teachers to compete with everyone else in the school and my county. When I was in upper school (13 - 16yrs old) I was actually awarded prizes for certain subjects but turned them down on the principal that I didnt see the point of being singled out purely because I was good at *X subject*. (I was, as far as I know, the only student in my school ever to do this.) Learning is the whole point of education is it not? Why should you get prizes for achieving what everyone else has to a slightly different degree?
International sporting competitions seem to fuel xenophobia. National ones cause entire towns to be prejudiced against people from other places for pathetic reasons (just look at football - your nearest neighbour is normally your most hated enemy).
Competition just seems to breed contempt.
Does anyone else share my view or am I just a bit odd?
I've just been thinking about this after reading some posts on various messageboards (both spinny and non-spinny) and thought I'd see what everyone elses oppinions are.
Everything (as far as I can see) always becomes competitive at some point. Whether this is in education (competing with peers for the best grades) or an art form (such as poi) or anything else this always seems to be the case.
As a DJ I've grown to despise this. I've been mixing for years BUT have never felt the need to 'prove myself' in a DJ competition. I just dont see competition as being part of the art. Instead I like to encourage co-operation. Playing back to back (a couple of records each) with someone is far more fun to all involved (DJ's and the audience). I see playing this way as a learning experience where you can pick up tips from the other person and combine your skills so that you both improve. In the early days of hip-hop DJ's used to meet for 'jam sessions'. Now people just compete for an audiences approval.
One of the things that first attracted me to poi (,staff, devilstick, etc) was the feeling that the majority of people who are involved in these art forms share my love of, well, sharing. At first it seemed as though everyone I met was only interested in helping each other get better at whatever skill they wanted to learn. However the attitude mentioned in [Old link] has become more and more apparent to me. There seem to be so many people setting up competitions to decide 'who is the best'. This seems to go against what spining is for me. I like to see people that have amazing skills but I dont think that we need to compete for this.
I am generally anti-competitive. I dont believe that it helps in any situation. I believe in co-operation and the sharing of ideas to adapt and improve them. 'Two heads are better than one' and all the other cliche's.
I actually think my my views on this were caused by my school years where I was pretty much forced by my teachers to compete with everyone else in the school and my county. When I was in upper school (13 - 16yrs old) I was actually awarded prizes for certain subjects but turned them down on the principal that I didnt see the point of being singled out purely because I was good at *X subject*. (I was, as far as I know, the only student in my school ever to do this.) Learning is the whole point of education is it not? Why should you get prizes for achieving what everyone else has to a slightly different degree?
International sporting competitions seem to fuel xenophobia. National ones cause entire towns to be prejudiced against people from other places for pathetic reasons (just look at football - your nearest neighbour is normally your most hated enemy).
Competition just seems to breed contempt.
Does anyone else share my view or am I just a bit odd?
Dreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
Posted:
Both?
I agree in some cases, I've often felt my non-competitivesness in some instances is frowned upon and causes me to fit in badly. That said Im fiercely competitive in some things- just, not all, and certainly not fire arts. I think non-competitiveness should be accepted more when people want it to be the case, but competitiveness doesn't have to be a bad thing either. It is the fuel that drives people to be better. I think it gets weirder when you arn't directly involved- like if you personally are being the best football player you'll derive a lot of benefit , or the best gymnast- other people can help you set goals and see whats possible, and many top athletes are just compteing against themselves as well- but cheering on your team/ country can lead to the whole us and them mentality, which can cause social harm.
Both?
I agree in some cases, I've often felt my non-competitivesness in some instances is frowned upon and causes me to fit in badly. That said Im fiercely competitive in some things- just, not all, and certainly not fire arts. I think non-competitiveness should be accepted more when people want it to be the case, but competitiveness doesn't have to be a bad thing either. It is the fuel that drives people to be better. I think it gets weirder when you arn't directly involved- like if you personally are being the best football player you'll derive a lot of benefit , or the best gymnast- other people can help you set goals and see whats possible, and many top athletes are just compteing against themselves as well- but cheering on your team/ country can lead to the whole us and them mentality, which can cause social harm.
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
life is competition, you cant avoid it, i think that striving to be the best one can be at something is a beautiful thing, which i might add is a very different thing to winning. i think competition can have a negative spin when it no longer becomes about bettering one self but instead "beating" everyone else.
ive met alot of ppl who feel that poi staff etc shouldnt be compeditive and i strongly disagree, if no one tried to do new things i think it would be very boring however i dont think knowledge should ever be denied to anyone. imho negative competition characteristic of insecurity and not in the true nature of competition
life is competition, you cant avoid it, i think that striving to be the best one can be at something is a beautiful thing, which i might add is a very different thing to winning. i think competition can have a negative spin when it no longer becomes about bettering one self but instead "beating" everyone else.
ive met alot of ppl who feel that poi staff etc shouldnt be compeditive and i strongly disagree, if no one tried to do new things i think it would be very boring however i dont think knowledge should ever be denied to anyone. imho negative competition characteristic of insecurity and not in the true nature of competition
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,666 posts
Location: Preston, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,666 posts
Location: Preston, United Kingdom
Posted:
There is a time for compeativeness, if you can let it go and go back to the normal behavior then thats better. For instance if you wanted to start a poi competition and turned it into a meet event over a few days, thewre wouldnt be anything wrong in that just as long as its not taken too far, like ben says competition can have a negative spin when it no longer becomes about bettering one self but instead "beating" everyone else
Theres friendly competition and then theres unfriendly competition.
There is a time for compeativeness, if you can let it go and go back to the normal behavior then thats better. For instance if you wanted to start a poi competition and turned it into a meet event over a few days, thewre wouldnt be anything wrong in that just as long as its not taken too far, like ben says competition can have a negative spin when it no longer becomes about bettering one self but instead "beating" everyone else
Theres friendly competition and then theres unfriendly competition.
Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat
'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?
SILVER Member
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
Posted:
i think competion is fine if everyone is dosnt mind losing, and noone really wants to win.
i think competion is fine if everyone is dosnt mind losing, and noone really wants to win.
Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no
SILVER Member
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Posted:
I a firm believer in constantly bettering yourself but for me that has absolutely no relation to how good other people are at something. i.e. I dont tend to think of myself as being better / worse than anyone else
and I dont think of others as being better / worse than me.
Why do people need to put themselves into a heirachy through competition (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.)?
Is it not enough to say that you are as good as you can be given the amount of time you've spent on something?
Does your skill have to be compared to others to have any meaning?
Are we all not constantly learning?
Is wanting to win not just a form of greed? (or glory seeking?)
(This isnt meant to sound like a rant, I'm just curious as to people's views)
I a firm believer in constantly bettering yourself but for me that has absolutely no relation to how good other people are at something. i.e. I dont tend to think of myself as being better / worse than anyone else
and I dont think of others as being better / worse than me.
Why do people need to put themselves into a heirachy through competition (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.)?
Is it not enough to say that you are as good as you can be given the amount of time you've spent on something?
Does your skill have to be compared to others to have any meaning?
Are we all not constantly learning?
Is wanting to win not just a form of greed? (or glory seeking?)
(This isnt meant to sound like a rant, I'm just curious as to people's views)
SILVER Member
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
Posted:
monoply is a competion... monoply is clearly good.. games are good.. games tend to be competitive.. you need to have a winner to make the game work, but it dosnt matter who is teh winner.
monoply is a competion... monoply is clearly good.. games are good.. games tend to be competitive.. you need to have a winner to make the game work, but it dosnt matter who is teh winner.
Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no
SILVER Member
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Posted:
not all games need a winner.
Sh!thead (the card game of a million different names) only needs one massive loser
And monopoly is really bad. A game where the object is to screw over all of your mates!
Anyway this is besides the point, anyone who gets competitive about board games is a massive loser anyway.
not all games need a winner.
Sh!thead (the card game of a million different names) only needs one massive loser
And monopoly is really bad. A game where the object is to screw over all of your mates!
Anyway this is besides the point, anyone who gets competitive about board games is a massive loser anyway.
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
if you truely want to better yourself the best way to do it imho is to first bring your abilities to equal those of "the best" then raise them some more
if give u all the maths books to year 12 in school and you sit down learn them then i give u a problem from a 3rd year university subjects its going to take you alot of time to work out how to solve it, whereas if i gave u the extra books it would take much less time. how good you are at something is not only relative to the time you spend.
all meaning is derived from comparision, lables exists to differentiate qualities, without qualities to differentiate its all the same
id say yes but then i think of those folks on jerry springer ......
wanting to win is natural as is greed theres nothing wrong with that as long as its balenced. if i was truely selfless id give away all my possesions but then again id be doing it for the good feeling it would bring which in itself is selfish.
Written by: Seye
I a firm believer in constantly bettering yourself but for me that has absolutely no relation to how good other people are at something. i.e. I dont tend to think of myself as being better / worse than anyone else
and I dont think of others as being better / worse than me.
if you truely want to better yourself the best way to do it imho is to first bring your abilities to equal those of "the best" then raise them some more
Written by: Seye
Is it not enough to say that you are as good as you can be given the amount of time you've spent on something?
if give u all the maths books to year 12 in school and you sit down learn them then i give u a problem from a 3rd year university subjects its going to take you alot of time to work out how to solve it, whereas if i gave u the extra books it would take much less time. how good you are at something is not only relative to the time you spend.
Written by: Seye
Does your skill have to be compared to others to have any meaning?
all meaning is derived from comparision, lables exists to differentiate qualities, without qualities to differentiate its all the same
Written by: Seye
Are we all not constantly learning?
id say yes but then i think of those folks on jerry springer ......
Written by: Seye
Is wanting to win not just a form of greed? (or glory seeking?)
wanting to win is natural as is greed theres nothing wrong with that as long as its balenced. if i was truely selfless id give away all my possesions but then again id be doing it for the good feeling it would bring which in itself is selfish.
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
Dreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
Posted:
ben-ja-men said most of what i was gonna, but i'd just like to say that I don't see why being comptetitive over board games makes you a massive loser, surely learning the stragtegy and logic is useful?
but if you persist in saying that, then i'll be a massive loser, long live catan!
ben-ja-men said most of what i was gonna, but i'd just like to say that I don't see why being comptetitive over board games makes you a massive loser, surely learning the stragtegy and logic is useful?
but if you persist in saying that, then i'll be a massive loser, long live catan!
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
i think seye might have ment compeditive in a bad sports kind of way?
i think seye might have ment compeditive in a bad sports kind of way?
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
SILVER Member
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Posted:
But that doesn't mean you have to compare yourself to other people.
I feel that I have achieved if I am better at something today than I was yesterday. Comparison of this kind is only relative to me.
I am not really concerned whether I am better than other people or not.
You would have had to learn the basics before you learned the higher level stuff though. Therefore with a little more time you could always get up to that level.
I know people that take board games soooooo seriously. It is good to learn logic and tactics through games.
Dont you get pleasure from just the playing of the game though? Are you really bothered if you lose?
All of this is still about an 'I'm better than you' mentality. To me that just seems unproductive.
P.S
This is learned behaviour. Theres nothing natural about it.
And no-one said anything about being truly selfless. Everyone wants to be comfortable. That is not a display of greed.
Written by: ben-ja-men
all meaning is derived from comparision, lables exists to differentiate qualities, without qualities to differentiate its all the same
But that doesn't mean you have to compare yourself to other people.
I feel that I have achieved if I am better at something today than I was yesterday. Comparison of this kind is only relative to me.
I am not really concerned whether I am better than other people or not.
Written by: ben-ja-men
if give u all the maths books to year 12 in school and you sit down learn them then i give u a problem from a 3rd year university subjects its going to take you alot of time to work out how to solve it, whereas if i gave u the extra books it would take much less time. how good you are at something is not only relative to the time you spend.
You would have had to learn the basics before you learned the higher level stuff though. Therefore with a little more time you could always get up to that level.
Written by: Kyrian
i'd just like to say that I don't see why being comptetitive over board games makes you a massive loser
I know people that take board games soooooo seriously. It is good to learn logic and tactics through games.
Dont you get pleasure from just the playing of the game though? Are you really bothered if you lose?
All of this is still about an 'I'm better than you' mentality. To me that just seems unproductive.
P.S
Written by: ben-ja-men
wanting to win is natural as is greed theres nothing wrong with that as long as its balenced.
This is learned behaviour. Theres nothing natural about it.
And no-one said anything about being truly selfless. Everyone wants to be comfortable. That is not a display of greed.
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
depends if your goal is to simply progress or if its to be the best you can.
this is true you could achieve that but it wouldnt be being the best you can for if you took the extra information you would have reached a higher level
I think this comes back to finding a healthy balence, for me if i play a game of pool for the joy of the game its not much fun when my opponent isnt to fussed about winning and doesnt play the game seriously. win lose doesnt matter that much but without a desire to win the game play is poor
i disagree, in any environment there are limited resources which you compete for. the desire to survive to win to propogate is the most primal desire.
Written by: Seye
But that doesn't mean you have to compare yourself to other people.
depends if your goal is to simply progress or if its to be the best you can.
Written by: Seye
You would have had to learn the basics before you learned the higher level stuff though. Therefore with a little more time you could always get up to that level.
this is true you could achieve that but it wouldnt be being the best you can for if you took the extra information you would have reached a higher level
Written by: Seye
I know people that take board games soooooo seriously. It is good to learn logic and tactics through games. Dont you get pleasure from just the playing of the game though? Are you really bothered if you lose?
I think this comes back to finding a healthy balence, for me if i play a game of pool for the joy of the game its not much fun when my opponent isnt to fussed about winning and doesnt play the game seriously. win lose doesnt matter that much but without a desire to win the game play is poor
Written by: Seye
This is learned behaviour. Theres nothing natural about it.
i disagree, in any environment there are limited resources which you compete for. the desire to survive to win to propogate is the most primal desire.
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
SILVER Member
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Posted:
The language you're using is a little confused...
Being the best YOU can has absolutely nothing to do with how good you are in relation to others. You dont need others as a benchmark to be as good as YOU can.
You do need others for the comparison if you want to be the BEST at something. That is what I dont understand. It serves no useful purpose as far as I can see. It is just competitive nonsense.
The pool analogy isnt too great either. I play all the time but I play loads of games one after the other. At the end of the session most of the time I have no idea who's won the most frames. It is irrelevant - I played because I enjoy the game not because I wanted to win. Surely that is the point?
I'm not sure what its like in Adelaide but I know that I do not have to compete to survive here in the UK. I can easily get a job, food is not scarce and there is always going to be somewhere to live.
People choose to compete to reach higher levels. It has always been my experience that you can achieve the same thing through co-operation too though.
I dont think that desire to survive is a relevant argument in a lot of countries any more. It is your own choice to make everything into a competition.
(sorry for the lack of quotes - I thought you'd know what I was on about)
The language you're using is a little confused...
Being the best YOU can has absolutely nothing to do with how good you are in relation to others. You dont need others as a benchmark to be as good as YOU can.
You do need others for the comparison if you want to be the BEST at something. That is what I dont understand. It serves no useful purpose as far as I can see. It is just competitive nonsense.
The pool analogy isnt too great either. I play all the time but I play loads of games one after the other. At the end of the session most of the time I have no idea who's won the most frames. It is irrelevant - I played because I enjoy the game not because I wanted to win. Surely that is the point?
I'm not sure what its like in Adelaide but I know that I do not have to compete to survive here in the UK. I can easily get a job, food is not scarce and there is always going to be somewhere to live.
People choose to compete to reach higher levels. It has always been my experience that you can achieve the same thing through co-operation too though.
I dont think that desire to survive is a relevant argument in a lot of countries any more. It is your own choice to make everything into a competition.
(sorry for the lack of quotes - I thought you'd know what I was on about)
SILVER Member
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Posted:
I was isolated from the rest of the poi world for years, when I found HOP I compared myself to others and discovered things I may not have discovered on my own. Isolations for instance were something I was doing naturally but didn't focus on untill I knew what it was. If it wasn't for comparison I wouldn't be the performer I am today. I think Ben is trying to communicate the personal growth gained through others, standing on the shoulders of giants if you will.
I think Ben was talking about a natural primative evolutionary desire, not a concious one. Evoultion is a competition, survival of the fittest, hence a natural desire to compete.
Lets not confuse competition and comparison too much, you can only really grow to the levels you see, kind of a race to the top man. Your not really trying to be better than them for the sake of winning, but for accomplishing all known goals.
Written by:
Being the best YOU can has absolutely nothing to do with how good you are in relation to others. You dont need others as a benchmark to be as good as YOU can.
I was isolated from the rest of the poi world for years, when I found HOP I compared myself to others and discovered things I may not have discovered on my own. Isolations for instance were something I was doing naturally but didn't focus on untill I knew what it was. If it wasn't for comparison I wouldn't be the performer I am today. I think Ben is trying to communicate the personal growth gained through others, standing on the shoulders of giants if you will.
Written by:
I'm not sure what its like in Adelaide but I know that I do not have to compete to survive here in the UK. I can easily get a job, food is not scarce and there is always going to be somewhere to live.
People choose to compete to reach higher levels. It has always been my experience that you can achieve the same thing through co-operation too though.
I think Ben was talking about a natural primative evolutionary desire, not a concious one. Evoultion is a competition, survival of the fittest, hence a natural desire to compete.
Lets not confuse competition and comparison too much, you can only really grow to the levels you see, kind of a race to the top man. Your not really trying to be better than them for the sake of winning, but for accomplishing all known goals.
Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Depends on the situation. I'm not normally competitive. I just can't be arsed.
But woe betide you if you wind up in the lane next to me in the 100 yard/meter breastroke.
You *WILL* eat my wake.
Non-Https Image Link
Depends on the situation. I'm not normally competitive. I just can't be arsed.
But woe betide you if you wind up in the lane next to me in the 100 yard/meter breastroke.
You *WILL* eat my wake. Non-Https Image Link
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,942 posts
Location: London, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,942 posts
Location: London, UK
Posted:
i think competitiveness is (like almost everything) relative and flexible.
i like to better myself and i like to compare myself agasint others and see where i 'stand'
but i do it in balance
i would go with seye though - play for the joy of playing - play your best but dont play for the sake of winning - if thats what you want why play the game?
i think competitiveness is (like almost everything) relative and flexible.
i like to better myself and i like to compare myself agasint others and see where i 'stand'
but i do it in balance
i would go with seye though - play for the joy of playing - play your best but dont play for the sake of winning - if thats what you want why play the game?
back
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
What game? Oh...I lost.
(Sorry, blatant hijack...carry on!)
And I'm going to swim practice.
What game? Oh...I lost.
(Sorry, blatant hijack...carry on!)
And I'm going to swim practice.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
SILVER Member
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Posted:
Good call
I do think that this post has got slightly confused.
The thing that I dont understand is direct competition. There are now several spinning competitions and I saw that the guys who run the EJC competitions were talking about it being considered an 'X-Games for performers' in the future.
You do need other people to learn, and to enjoy, any hobby. I dont think direct competition aids that in any way though. I also think that this doesnt mean that you have to compare yourself to others in a *who's the best* way.
I know that some people thrive on this though. I've been asked to enter hundreds of DJ comps and have just never felt compelled to do so. I really want to understand what it is that makes people want to be labelled as number one.
I have already had a conversation with Pele in another thread about this but I dont think there is any such thing as 'natural human behaviour'. If you believe that you have free will then you dont either. We are all capable of making decisions about how we want to act. Saying that you act in a certain way because it is 'a natural human instinct' is just not looking at the causes of something carefully enough. You learn these behaviours or you make the decisions for them yourself. 'Instinct' is the lazy mans way out of admitting responsibility for your actions.
Written by: Cody
I was isolated from the rest of the poi world for years, when I found HOP I compared myself to others and discovered things I may not have discovered on my own. Isolations for instance were something I was doing naturally but didn't focus on untill I knew what it was. If it wasn't for comparison I wouldn't be the performer I am today. I think Ben is trying to communicate the personal growth gained through others, standing on the shoulders of giants if you will.
I think Ben was talking about a natural primative evolutionary desire, not a concious one. Evoultion is a competition, survival of the fittest, hence a natural desire to compete.
Lets not confuse competition and comparison too much, you can only really grow to the levels you see, kind of a race to the top man. Your not really trying to be better than them for the sake of winning, but for accomplishing all known goals.
Good call
I do think that this post has got slightly confused.
The thing that I dont understand is direct competition. There are now several spinning competitions and I saw that the guys who run the EJC competitions were talking about it being considered an 'X-Games for performers' in the future.
You do need other people to learn, and to enjoy, any hobby. I dont think direct competition aids that in any way though. I also think that this doesnt mean that you have to compare yourself to others in a *who's the best* way.
I know that some people thrive on this though. I've been asked to enter hundreds of DJ comps and have just never felt compelled to do so. I really want to understand what it is that makes people want to be labelled as number one.
I have already had a conversation with Pele in another thread about this but I dont think there is any such thing as 'natural human behaviour'. If you believe that you have free will then you dont either. We are all capable of making decisions about how we want to act. Saying that you act in a certain way because it is 'a natural human instinct' is just not looking at the causes of something carefully enough. You learn these behaviours or you make the decisions for them yourself. 'Instinct' is the lazy mans way out of admitting responsibility for your actions.
SILVER Member
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Posted:
Damn you Doc!
I've been avoiding 'the game' but I guess I've been here long enough to make it unnavoidable.
Written by: Doc Lightning
What game? Oh...I lost.
Damn you Doc!
I've been avoiding 'the game' but I guess I've been here long enough to make it unnavoidable.
SILVER Member
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Posted:
Don't get me wrong, the wonderfull thing about being human is having a conciousness and ability to controll ones self. But at the same time we are all still affected by natural instincts, which sucks sometimes. Like PMS, or trying to focus on calculus homework while your hormones are raging. They don't controll us but they do still have an effect.
I have pondered how one would actually "judge" a fire performer competition. The colsest comparison would be something like figure skating with different categories combined. Competition does fuel creativity and speeds up invention. A competition could be good for advancing the art.
Fire spinning is so diverse across the world that a direct comparison is next to impossible, unless your judging pure technicality, which isn't a fair measure of skill, but baseball's world series doesn't really include the whole world, so I guess a technical competiton is ok.
Don't get me wrong, the wonderfull thing about being human is having a conciousness and ability to controll ones self. But at the same time we are all still affected by natural instincts, which sucks sometimes. Like PMS, or trying to focus on calculus homework while your hormones are raging. They don't controll us but they do still have an effect.
I have pondered how one would actually "judge" a fire performer competition. The colsest comparison would be something like figure skating with different categories combined. Competition does fuel creativity and speeds up invention. A competition could be good for advancing the art.
Fire spinning is so diverse across the world that a direct comparison is next to impossible, unless your judging pure technicality, which isn't a fair measure of skill, but baseball's world series doesn't really include the whole world, so I guess a technical competiton is ok.
Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,617 posts
Location: Berlin, Ireland
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,617 posts
Location: Berlin, Ireland
Posted:
The statement that everything comes down to competitiveness is wrong in my opinion. What about a co-op what’s competitive about that?
Competitiveness doesn’t have to be a bad thing. That’s how we got into space and onto the moon!
As long as it’s not taken to far obviously...
I would be more concerned with its ugly cousin the ego.
You can uncompetitive and be an egotistical *expletive* … so I don’t see competitiveness as the problem in itself.
I have far more time for a playfully competitive person than a Ugly egotistical one. I’ve met the latter type of spinner before.
The statement that everything comes down to competitiveness is wrong in my opinion. What about a co-op what’s competitive about that?
Competitiveness doesn’t have to be a bad thing. That’s how we got into space and onto the moon!
As long as it’s not taken to far obviously...
I would be more concerned with its ugly cousin the ego.
You can uncompetitive and be an egotistical *expletive* … so I don’t see competitiveness as the problem in itself.
I have far more time for a playfully competitive person than a Ugly egotistical one. I’ve met the latter type of spinner before.
I live in a world of infinite possibilities.
SILVER Member
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Posted:
Thats one of the best quotes I've seen so far on these boards
Written by: DeepSoulSheep
Competitiveness doesn’t have to be a bad thing. That’s how we got into space and onto the moon!
As long as it’s not taken to far obviously...
Thats one of the best quotes I've seen so far on these boards
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
human behaviours extremely complex so lets start with something a little easier to analyse. lets look at a herring gulls. when an adult gull has a grub in its beak the chicks responds by gaping their mouths wide and cheeping. however if the red spot on the adults beak is painted yellow the chicks ignore the food. show the chicks a vivid yellow pencil with a bright red dot and they respond with gaping mouths wide open and cheeping. the behaviour of the adult birds is quite similar, they push the food to the largest and reddest mouth in the nest, with a baby cuckoo in the nest the herring gull will feed it instead of its own young even though the cuckoo is the wrong size and colour. These are instinctual behaviours they are not learnt.
every action decision you make if you follow the causes back to their roots go back to whats often referred to as the four fs, fighting, fleeing, feeding and sexual behaviour. all of which are instinctual drives. every learnt behaviour is based on them after all without a comparision to determine which behaviours are good for survival and which are not we would have no feedback to grow.
Every memory and detail that people supress is not something we learn its an instinctual behaviour to help us survive in the world. Your brain constantly manipulates your perception of the world to make it look stable. If for example you have had a stroke and suffer from agnosia (unawareness of illness) your brain will try to make the world stable in extreme cases causing you to have hallucinations such that you actually see and feel your paralised limbs moving!!!
i disagree, unless you have some form of disability then there is no reason that being the best you can be should be anything short of the best. everyone is capable but alot of people settle for satisfactory rather than reaching their best. do you really believe that a child who gets 50% in a test but tried as hard as they could is incapable of ever doing better?
To play a game of pool against someone who doesnt really care is constantly off getting drinks, talking to ppl and generally not focused on the game detracts from the quality of their performance as they are not giving it their 100%. I agree that who wins the most frames isnt of great consequence however the path taken in reaching the end is.
Written by: Seye
I dont think there is any such thing as 'natural human behaviour'. If you believe that you have free will then you dont either. We are all capable of making decisions about how we want to act. Saying that you act in a certain way because it is 'a natural human instinct' is just not looking at the causes of something carefully enough. You learn these behaviours or you make the decisions for them yourself. 'Instinct' is the lazy mans way out of admitting responsibility for your actions.
human behaviours extremely complex so lets start with something a little easier to analyse. lets look at a herring gulls. when an adult gull has a grub in its beak the chicks responds by gaping their mouths wide and cheeping. however if the red spot on the adults beak is painted yellow the chicks ignore the food. show the chicks a vivid yellow pencil with a bright red dot and they respond with gaping mouths wide open and cheeping. the behaviour of the adult birds is quite similar, they push the food to the largest and reddest mouth in the nest, with a baby cuckoo in the nest the herring gull will feed it instead of its own young even though the cuckoo is the wrong size and colour. These are instinctual behaviours they are not learnt.
every action decision you make if you follow the causes back to their roots go back to whats often referred to as the four fs, fighting, fleeing, feeding and sexual behaviour. all of which are instinctual drives. every learnt behaviour is based on them after all without a comparision to determine which behaviours are good for survival and which are not we would have no feedback to grow.
Every memory and detail that people supress is not something we learn its an instinctual behaviour to help us survive in the world. Your brain constantly manipulates your perception of the world to make it look stable. If for example you have had a stroke and suffer from agnosia (unawareness of illness) your brain will try to make the world stable in extreme cases causing you to have hallucinations such that you actually see and feel your paralised limbs moving!!!
Written by: Seye
Being the best YOU can has absolutely nothing to do with how good you are in relation to others. You dont need others as a benchmark to be as good as YOU can.
i disagree, unless you have some form of disability then there is no reason that being the best you can be should be anything short of the best. everyone is capable but alot of people settle for satisfactory rather than reaching their best. do you really believe that a child who gets 50% in a test but tried as hard as they could is incapable of ever doing better?
Written by: Seye
The pool analogy isnt too great either. I play all the time but I play loads of games one after the other. At the end of the session most of the time I have no idea who's won the most frames. It is irrelevant - I played because I enjoy the game not because I wanted to win. Surely that is the point?
To play a game of pool against someone who doesnt really care is constantly off getting drinks, talking to ppl and generally not focused on the game detracts from the quality of their performance as they are not giving it their 100%. I agree that who wins the most frames isnt of great consequence however the path taken in reaching the end is.
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Really? So if I trained as hard as Michael Phelps I could swim as fast?
Guess what? I have, at points in my life, trained as hard as an olympic athlete. I never got that fast.
Written by:
i disagree, unless you have some form of disability then there is no reason that being the best you can be should be anything short of the best.
Really? So if I trained as hard as Michael Phelps I could swim as fast?
Guess what? I have, at points in my life, trained as hard as an olympic athlete. I never got that fast.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
what would you put it down to then mike? is there/was there room for improvement in your technique/body conditioning or is your technique pretty damn close to perfection and theres some other reason that you never got that fast?
what would you put it down to then mike? is there/was there room for improvement in your technique/body conditioning or is your technique pretty damn close to perfection and theres some other reason that you never got that fast?
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,942 posts
Location: London, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,942 posts
Location: London, UK
Posted:
i think people are taking this whole debate as too cut and dry either free will or instinct/ abiltiy and training
all of them intermingle, and its impossible to say where one or the other will take you.
for example Doc may be capable of being the fastest swimmer in the world **but** that may relies on a super specific work out or something. in the same way he may not naturally be a good swimmer but he can improve (im not saying either of thses is true its an example btw
)
while its always possible to push your limits there are still limits eventually you may find them - i'd say very few people do though.
anyway closer to the actual topic...
again competitiveness agasint others and yourself intermingle. the urge to win is always going to be there in some way even if its just reaching personal goals.
what causes problems is ego and fanatisism - these blind the person to the game and leave only the winning.
taking cody's point i dont think its possible to make a realy poi competition - judging it would involove to many factors. ice skating tends to work like dance and uses a lot of set moves
there are toooo many moves in poi and too many variations and with dance its just silly....
not that it stops people trying to rank themselves - which is just silly if you think about it - again there are too many variables
i think people are taking this whole debate as too cut and dry either free will or instinct/ abiltiy and training
all of them intermingle, and its impossible to say where one or the other will take you.
for example Doc may be capable of being the fastest swimmer in the world **but** that may relies on a super specific work out or something. in the same way he may not naturally be a good swimmer but he can improve (im not saying either of thses is true its an example btw
)while its always possible to push your limits there are still limits eventually you may find them - i'd say very few people do though.
anyway closer to the actual topic...
again competitiveness agasint others and yourself intermingle. the urge to win is always going to be there in some way even if its just reaching personal goals.
what causes problems is ego and fanatisism - these blind the person to the game and leave only the winning.
taking cody's point i dont think its possible to make a realy poi competition - judging it would involove to many factors. ice skating tends to work like dance and uses a lot of set moves
there are toooo many moves in poi and too many variations and with dance its just silly....
not that it stops people trying to rank themselves - which is just silly if you think about it - again there are too many variables
back
SILVER Member
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Posted:
True, but you got a lot better than you would have if you had never seen Michael Phelps (or any other great swimmer) compete.
Were you competing against Michael? Not directly, but you were chaising him in your mind, aka racing him.
If you were all by yourself in a pool with no competition or comparison, you would naturally settle for less because you may not be able to comprehend the possibilities.
Written by:
Really? So if I trained as hard as Michael Phelps I could swim as fast?
Guess what? I have, at points in my life, trained as hard as an olympic athlete. I never got that fast.
True, but you got a lot better than you would have if you had never seen Michael Phelps (or any other great swimmer) compete.
Were you competing against Michael? Not directly, but you were chaising him in your mind, aka racing him.
If you were all by yourself in a pool with no competition or comparison, you would naturally settle for less because you may not be able to comprehend the possibilities.
Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada
SILVER Member
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Posted:
Isn't trying to be the 'fastest in the world' an ultimately pointless task though?
Would you not be just as happy (as I'm sure the Doc is) with just being a damn good swimmer? If you are happy with your performance then there is no need to be any faster. In fact wanting to 'push it further than anyone ever has done', whether you are capable of such a task or not, is pure ego. Who really cares if you 'technically' could be better.
Again I'll use DJ'ing as an example (because its the only thing I really have markers for)...
I could, if I really wanted to, push muself and dedicate all of my time to DJ'ing and possibly become one of the most technically skilled DJ's in the world. I truly dont see the point though. I enjoy my art for what it is. My skills constantly evolve every time I get on the decks. I'm, not pushing it though. I do it purely for the enjoyment of the act. I dont care whether other people think I am skilled or not. I am pushing myself to learn but whether I am better or worse than other DJ's doesn't matter at all as long as I get something out of it.
I do get excited about the things that I've done but I dont think that they make me any better than anyone else.
I think that you are missing the point taking any artistic ability further than this. It should be done for the enjoyment and nothing more.
I do agree, most people never push themselves to reach their maximum potential with a certain skill. I think in a lot of cases though this is because those who do are concentrating all their effort on one area are missing opportunities in others.
When I watch athetlitics I cant help thinking "Congratulations, you can run 100 metric yards ( ) in a very short amount of time. So what?". While it may seem impressive, this person has concentrated all of their life on training for 10 seconds so that they can have their 15minutes of glory.
Ellen McArthur is another perfect example - well done, you managed to sail round the world single handidly (which is impressive!). Why do it a second time just to beat the time though? She proved she could do it. Second time around it was just competitive 'pride' nonsense.
IMO being good at a range of things AND being relaxed about it is much more useful (and impressive) than being obsessed with attaining the number one spot for one thing.
Written by: Cody
True, but you got a lot better than you would have if you had never seen Michael Phelps (or any other great swimmer) compete.
Were you competing against Michael? Not directly, but you were chaising him in your mind, aka racing him.
If you were all by yourself in a pool with no competition or comparison, you would naturally settle for less because you may not be able to comprehend the possibilities.
Isn't trying to be the 'fastest in the world' an ultimately pointless task though?
Would you not be just as happy (as I'm sure the Doc is) with just being a damn good swimmer? If you are happy with your performance then there is no need to be any faster. In fact wanting to 'push it further than anyone ever has done', whether you are capable of such a task or not, is pure ego. Who really cares if you 'technically' could be better.
Again I'll use DJ'ing as an example (because its the only thing I really have markers for)...
I could, if I really wanted to, push muself and dedicate all of my time to DJ'ing and possibly become one of the most technically skilled DJ's in the world. I truly dont see the point though. I enjoy my art for what it is. My skills constantly evolve every time I get on the decks. I'm, not pushing it though. I do it purely for the enjoyment of the act. I dont care whether other people think I am skilled or not. I am pushing myself to learn but whether I am better or worse than other DJ's doesn't matter at all as long as I get something out of it.
I do get excited about the things that I've done but I dont think that they make me any better than anyone else.
I think that you are missing the point taking any artistic ability further than this. It should be done for the enjoyment and nothing more.
I do agree, most people never push themselves to reach their maximum potential with a certain skill. I think in a lot of cases though this is because those who do are concentrating all their effort on one area are missing opportunities in others.
When I watch athetlitics I cant help thinking "Congratulations, you can run 100 metric yards (
) in a very short amount of time. So what?". While it may seem impressive, this person has concentrated all of their life on training for 10 seconds so that they can have their 15minutes of glory.Ellen McArthur is another perfect example - well done, you managed to sail round the world single handidly (which is impressive!). Why do it a second time just to beat the time though? She proved she could do it. Second time around it was just competitive 'pride' nonsense.
IMO being good at a range of things AND being relaxed about it is much more useful (and impressive) than being obsessed with attaining the number one spot for one thing.
SILVER Member
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Posted:
Are we still talking about general competition or strictly "The best in the world?"
I wrote a bunch more but I deleted it because I want to hear your answer Seye.
Are we still talking about general competition or strictly "The best in the world?"
I wrote a bunch more but I deleted it because I want to hear your answer Seye.
Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada
SILVER Member
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Posted:
I'm really tired so to keep it as simple as possible...
I dont understand why people feel a need to prove that they are better than anyone else.
I just dont get direct competition.
I also dont understand why people feel that they need to compare their skills to those of others to be happy with themselves. i.e. 'I am good because I am better than X'.
I dont have any problem with (as its by no means the same thing) competing on a jokey level with mates.
I also dont get people trying to become the 'absolute best' at something. It is an egotistical waste of time.
I do think that people who get competitive about artistic things have totally missed the point. Thats how I've always felt about DJ'ing and definitely how I see poi, staff, devilstick, juggling, etc.
I know not everyone shares my view, I'm just curious why. Most people are pretty competitive, I'm not at all in any way. I prefer to take a relaxed attitude towards everything. I feel this makes it more enjoyable.
(i hope that makes sense - i'm going to bed now but will undoubtedly be back at some point tomorrow to see the reply)
I'm really tired so to keep it as simple as possible...
I dont understand why people feel a need to prove that they are better than anyone else.
I just dont get direct competition.
I also dont understand why people feel that they need to compare their skills to those of others to be happy with themselves. i.e. 'I am good because I am better than X'.
I dont have any problem with (as its by no means the same thing) competing on a jokey level with mates.
I also dont get people trying to become the 'absolute best' at something. It is an egotistical waste of time.
I do think that people who get competitive about artistic things have totally missed the point. Thats how I've always felt about DJ'ing and definitely how I see poi, staff, devilstick, juggling, etc.
I know not everyone shares my view, I'm just curious why. Most people are pretty competitive, I'm not at all in any way. I prefer to take a relaxed attitude towards everything. I feel this makes it more enjoyable.
(i hope that makes sense - i'm going to bed now but will undoubtedly be back at some point tomorrow to see the reply)
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