Forums > Social Discussion > Addendum to "No Child Left Behind"

Posted: 18th Sep 2009
lovely

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

Posted: 19th Sep 2009
oh dear that's rather scary!!!

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Posted: 19th Sep 2009
you were not saying:

Originally Posted By: PeleSo we raise them stupid so the recruiters can woo them and minimal military brainwashing is needed because they aren't taught to think for themselves?

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 19th Sep 2009
Wasn't the NCLB act a Republican led initiative and wasn't some Florida Republican beaking off about how the federal government should keep out of the schools over on the "brainwashing" thread ?

Oh..it's politics

Pele, will you really support your son if he decides to join the military? I don't know how close to the military you are, but something tells me that joining the military at a time they're currently active overseas isn't the wisest decision.

Have you seen the HBO movie, The Recruiter ? I just saw it last month ( in glorious black and white with stunning monophonic sound ) and it provided an interesting insight into *just how hard these guys work* at getting recruits. Maybe it'd be worth picking up a copy and watching it with your son so he can be educated on what to expect should, at some time in the future, he develop a personal relationship with one of these guys.

Posted: 19th Sep 2009
Stout, it's completely politics. It's why I push my son so hard to get a good, strong education and not rest on his bum and glide along. I believe in the Socratic Method and believe that if he can ask and answer his own questions, then he can make educated choices, politics aside.

I will support him if he joins the military. There are many, many positions that are not on front lines, that are not in hostile places, that lead to amazing opportunities in civilian life. I am actually very close to many people who have been in all facets of the military. I don't oppose the military at all,for an intelligent person who enlists with a well thought out plan. Or the person who enlists to make themselves better and stronger. I've known several of these people and they are doing wonderfully.
I oppose the people running the military and the choices they make.
I oppose the idiots who think it's a get out of jail/life card. I've known a few of these and it didn't help them a bit.

I didn't see it but I can Hulu it I'm sure. Did you know that recruiters have the highest rate of suicide of all military personnel because the job is so stressful and demanding? The army currently ranks the highest in that of the 5 branches.
Did you also know they are told to say whatever it takes to get a kid to sign that paper, and will circumvent parental involvement as much as they can to do it? My co-worker and her son just went through this, it was awful. For the record, he was one who went in for the wrong reasons and it didn't work out. He was discharged on medical 5 weeks later.

As for my son entering, he can't for another 4 years, when he's 18. Hopefully something will change by then. *fingers crossed*

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 20th Sep 2009
Originally Posted By: PeleI oppose the people running the military and the choices they make.

errm - apart from "the ethics of working for the system" those guys NOW running the military, at some stage JOINED the military.

So preventing your son to eventually become one of those "with a well thought out plan" - wouldn't it be a good idea NOT to support EVERY decision he's making...

I mean, you'd NOT be supporting his decision to bum around and do nothing, or to drop out of school would you?

Least I want is to tell you what you got to do - only suggesting to be consistent and looking a bit further ahead.
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1253437602)

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 20th Sep 2009
I agree, the military can be a wonderful opportunity as long as you don't end up walking around with a flamethrower clearing houses.

Quote:Did you also know they are told to say whatever it takes to get a kid to sign that paper, and will circumvent parental involvement as much as they can to do it?

Yes, that's actually in the movie "overriding parental objections"

Years ago, I had a friend who joined the US military because he couldn't think of anything else to do. He was thinking free food, free education, they tell you what to do and how to do it, it seemed perfect for someone who was hooked on antidepressants. He too didn't last, since he's signed a contract, the military didn't *fire* him, they put him in some sort of "loser barracks" where he did pretty much nothing with the idea that he'd eventually quit...it worked.

Quote:As for my son entering, he can't for another 4 years, when he's 18. Hopefully something will change by then. *fingers crossed*

Yes, and if he does, let's hope it's with both eyes wide open.

Posted: 20th Sep 2009
Tom, most of the politicians making the decisions for the military, thus running it, have never been *in* the military.
I know many, many people who have gone in and come out wonderfully so please, don't question my parenting (and yes, that's exactly how you came across).

Stout, yeah. Most don't end up with flame throwers, or tanks. They only give those to the really crazy guys. lol

They tried to get him to quit? Odd. Do you know if it had something to do with the medication? Once you sign a contract, you generally are not allowed to quit. My friends son blew out his knee in basic and they tried to keep him. He went through 4 doctors and getting it to the point where he reinjured it during the healing process before they let him on a Medical.
My nieces husband is one of the screw-up ones but he went it and did really well. He's been on two tours through Afghanistan but was in bunkers working on communications. The problem for him is that he never received any real training so every time he considers leaving (not re-upping his contract), he looks around at civie life and realizes he doesn't qualify for a good job so he reups. Crazy catch-22.

It's crazy the tactics they use to override parents but since their enlisting at 18, there's nothing a parent can do.

I will make sure his eyes are open. Noah has a really good head on his shoulders (thankfully) and isn't prone to impulse on big things like this. Right now he's leaning towards college/Uni...here's to hoping

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 21st Sep 2009
Not questioning your parenting can see a good approach when you say you're trying to help him taking his own (wise) decisions.

Only I am trying to raise awareness that those guys who die in battle, don't join the military to die in battle and those who work for the military usually don't question much whether or not the mission they are on actually is benefiting "the greater good".

People still die in Iraq - and they wouldn't have to, if the government would not have built up Saddam in the first place.

See what I'm going at?

You wouldn't have to use the military for "police actions" in Afghanistan either, if the US wouldn't have supported the Taliban in previous years. Remember?

What I'm saying (throughout some threads) is that there is nothing wrong with the US "per se" - they are kept "blank" on (US) international politics and receive "patriotic brainwash" only to then unconditionally support interests that are neither their own, nor that of the people they try to "liberate".

You don't have to fix it, if you don't break it in the first place.

But I understand that it's hard to have a critical POV, when you're in the middle of it...

"A job back home" - would that also be one where he guides a drone deploying Hellfire missiles on villages in Pakistan/ Afghanistan?

Sorry - seem to live on a different planet. *bows out*

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 21st Sep 2009
Pele, I suspect it had something to do with the medication as i don't think he told the recruiter the whole truth. He was an American living up here in Canada, ( he was a roommate ) and living the lifestyle of the depressed and figured the military was a fresh start, so to speak. He signed on for one of these two year programs where they were supposed to give him training that would be valuable in the civilian world after his contract was up.

what he told us, when he came back, was that he was forced to quit because "his lungs were too small" and then told us the story of the loser barracks, saying the military didn't want to be sued for breaching the contract.

*we* all figured this had to do with his mental condition as nobody had ever heard of too small lungs, especially for someone who was supposed to be training for what amounted to a desk job.

Getting a marketable skill in the military is one of those things I was hoping for when I said I hoped your sun IF he decides to go this route would take into consideration. A friend of mine found himself in the position of being a soldier, just a soldier, with no usable skills outside the military ( save maybe working for Blackwater etc ) and decided to become a chef.

Worked for him, he's still in the military, but should he decide to move on, he'll be able to find work pretty much anywhere he and his wife decide to settle.

Posted: 21st Sep 2009
Originally Posted By: Fire TomOnly I am trying to raise awareness that those guys who die in battle, don't join the military to die in battle and those who work for the military usually don't question much whether or not the mission they are on actually is benefiting "the greater good".


In theory...

Here in Canada we have scores of "war resisters', people who'd joined the US military in good faith after listening to what the recruiters had to say then had a change of heart after being sent overseas and observing "what's really going on"

Hey, there's another movie worth watching... Stoploss

Posted: 21st Sep 2009
Tom you can't understand what we have here until you live here and you've made it clear you've no intent on that, yet you keep going on and on ad nauseum as if you "know". You don't. You can't.

I am not a misinformed, under-educated US citizen. I am not ignorant to the news of the rest of the world, and news flash, neither are a high population of this country.
We do not all receive patriotic brainwash at all. Those with the loudest voices get video taped. Those of us who don't feel the need to yell vitriol are busy out living our lives and not garnering attention. Did you ever stop to think that the rallies and such are only a million or two people? In this country, that's the population of the city of Dallas. It's not that many people and not an accurate representation of the country, or it's people. People who come from smaller countries, either in size or population have generally had a hard time understanding this. I've had many, many discussions with friends in other countries about it, and other similar topics. You only know what you read/see in video, and that is not the entire story.

And, Tom, you can deny it until you are blue in the face but you come across soooo anti-US (gov't). I completely agree with the multitudes of those who have told you that before. People tell you this for a reason and the venom you spew in any thread that mentions the US, the amount of US bashing threads you have started, prove it. You are just as guilty of not having a critical point of view as the one you claim I don't have.

You do understand our military does multitudes more than what you see in Afghanistan and Iraq, right? You understand that while that is the most media covered portion of it, they do a lot, on a global scale from helping disasters in other countries (they were there with the brush fires in Aus last year) to doing quite a bit here at home that goes fully unrecognised.
The men and women who serve are not evil, nor are they all sent to their deaths. Some men and women who serve have stood up against some of their orders and find themselves jailed for it (was in the news recently). Oh, and many aren't blindly assigned. People know what going into artillery means. My friends volunteered to be front lines explosive experts. Anticipated life span on a front line, 3 secs. They knew it and signed up anyway. Why? Danger pay and training. They lived. They came home fine. They were trained, didn't have to do their jobs (fortunately) came home and now put thier explosion skills to use here doing what they wanted to.
We are not a nation of ignoramouses like the media overseas makes us out to be.

You have this notion that people are ignorant sheep, especially the American people. You make it abundantly clear that you feel you are the only enlightened one, regardless of what anyone says and I'm saying it's simply not true.
I never said you don't live on this planet but I do think you live in your own little world.

Live here. Work here. Be raped for taxes, try to raise a child, see the good and the bad...because there is plenty of both..and then come talk to me.
The reason why I don't wax on and on about foreign affairs is because while I have been to other countries, and have seen other ways of life, I don't know the full story. I can read all day and watch YouTube but it doesn't make me an expert and it surely doesn't make me worthy of judging an entire culture, or the people of a nation, or even the gov't.

I can sit and point out the flaws in any gov't around the world.
I thinkt he way the Bushfires were handled was deplorable. I think the Chinese occupation of Tibet is disgusting. Don't get me started on my opinion on the state of things in South Africa. There are so many travesties in the world, but I would never debate them with such single sided knowledge, not the way you do.

In all cases, it's not the people I oppose, it's those running it.

But all you have given evidence of seeing are the guns because that is all that people outside of the US are brought to see by the media...and it's evident by so many of the threads you start on here.

If our nation was so backwards. If we were filled with patriotic, gun toting, fear mongering, hate, Obama would *never* have been voted in.
That's a simple truth, and a testement to how the people of this country truly feel.

This thread was not meant to be a debate on whether or not I support my son going into the military, or the about the military and gov't at all.
It was my shock and disgust at the feeling of having to be forced to give up the personal information of a 14 year old and my family because they want to make sure they can (attempt) to recruit him.

BTW, when a boy turns 18 here he has to register, by law, for the selective service anyway..which means if there is a draft, they have his info for it. In the end, I s'pose it's a moot point really. If they want him bad enough, they'll just take him

However, there are several countries where service for all citizens is compulsory, so I guess I can't complain.
Though, they don't seem to have the idiot brigade sending thier sons and daughters to war. I believe a lesson can be learned from them for sure.

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 22nd Sep 2009
Originally Posted By: PeleYou do understand our military does multitudes more than what you see in Afghanistan and Iraq, right? You understand that while that is the most media covered portion of it, they do a lot, on a global scale from helping disasters in other countries (they were there with the brush fires in Aus last year) to doing quite a bit here at home that goes fully unrecognised.

they were there with the bush fires? news to me! where did you get this info from? all i can find is this wiki page which mentions 30 fire services personell.

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

Posted: 22nd Sep 2009
thanks for that, Pele - sure I needed to know how I'm coming across (to you and others) Your rant deserves some response:

If people sign up for 3sec lifespan jobs or putting themselves right there - might make their families having to face it on front page. Rather should ask yourself before: am I willing to take this risk? And if: what for? Cash, fame? Might make your family grieve - worth it? Yes? Go for it... no whining after.

Yes, service in Germany is compulsory, but one has options:

- military service (one and a half years)
- technical help (8 years)

You want to serve the public in times of disasters? No need to join the army.

I'm not saying that the military is doing only bad. I'm saying that "working for the system" should be thoroughly considered ahead - or reconsidered time and again.

I for my part would never support the choice of people to fire missiles from remote locations or bombing without verification or looking for alternatives to fulfill objectives. And I would not shut my mouth if some friend or family member supports a system that is designed to work without verification of the context.

A system that builds up militias and armies in other countries (like the US did in Iraq and Afghanistan) only to then call upon the international community to send their children into the line of fire to fix it. Putting them on the "axis of evil" if they decline. They are not interested about "Afghanistan" or "Iraq"... not the least.

I'm not saying YOU are misinformed, under-educated US citizen or ignorant to the rest of the world. I'm saying that there is a significant number and most likely more than you are willing to accept. That's the fact in many countries. I'm no expert on the US - though I spent considerable time there - still I never claimed to be. Whilst paying taxes is not a US topic exclusively I try to argument from a point of reason.

You are taking from my words that I claim to be (more) enlightened (than you) - when all I'm stating is my opinion...

Electing Obama does not equal "salvation"... ratification of international environmental treaties or joining the international court in Den Haag would be a start. Criminal prosecution of CIA and army personnel responsible for atrocities committed would be a start.

I find a score of US'sians having a hard time to understand that others are not following up on the patriotic image the USA enjoys having about itself. I got called being a "racist" or "spitting venom" before... it doesn't match me.

We are all trying to make the best choices based upon the information and feelings available to us in that very moment - but maybe once and so often we should elevate our POV... same applies to me.

If you choose selective reading, highlighting (and exaggerating) the areas where our opinions differ - your choice. I'm trying to meet everybody with basic human respect at least.

You're doing an effort for your family and the community... point it out. You think I got to do the same to get on your level? No tango... My world small? Doesn't feel like that (to me) but sure I got gray areas and black spots... here and there... for sure more than I'm often willing to accept. But guess what: that's how life is - nobody can know everything, that's why we are a collective (or might eventually become one). Many do know more - my dearest respect.

You got stories to tell about people who stand up against orders? Tell them, let us know. Because NO - we are not hearing much about it.

You got stories to tell about your community or country that are in contrary to the picture painted by the news? Tell them.

You have troubles to understand other peoples opinion or ways of life? Ask - start a thread, voice your opinion. Counter what you perceive to be "Tom's negativity"... Because if YOU don't - who else is?

You find a thread of mine not understanding your way of life, or me completely misinformed about you, your community or your country... express your opinion, enlighten me about facts, which are not within my range of perception.

As I see it: blaming "the people who run it" - is not getting "us" anywhere. It's pushing away the responsibility, it's exactly what "they" want "us" to do... fuel separation.

I try to understand the reasons why people do things and thus inquire or voice my opinion about it. You take offense - your choice. You state your opinion - welcome. Everybody on their level. Say: "NO! Tom - that's wrong, because..." No problem. But try to keep personal attacks to a minimum - that's all I'm asking for...

apologies...

Originally Posted By: PeleThis thread was not meant to be a debate on whether or not I support my son going into the military, or the about the military and gov't at all.
It was my shock and disgust at the feeling of having to be forced to give up the personal information of a 14 year old and my family because they want to make sure they can (attempt) to recruit him.

my compassion and condolences... US seems not as democratic as it shines to the outside world... at least they can't force him (yet). Sorry I had an automated response, neglecting the human nature of your approach as a parent and mother especially... Wish you best of luck that your son will make wise decisions and not make you mourn him. Because IMHO it's wrong to put ones life at risk for other ppls interests.
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1253630146)
EDIT_REASON: still lengthy - pardon me

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 22nd Sep 2009
Originally Posted By: Mr Majestik

they were there with the bush fires? news to me! where did you get this info from? all i can find is this wiki page which mentions 30 fire services personell.

It was in an Aussie article my friend Camden from Melbs put up on his facebook. I'll see if I can find it.
It was the bucket planes (I have no idea what their name is) that were sent over. From the article, Canada sent some of theirs as well.

*shrug*

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 23rd Sep 2009
most likely wasnt the military then, their planes drop nape not water i think it more likely it was forest services like the wiki page says.

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

Posted: 23rd Sep 2009
Not Australia, but Burma/Mynmar

Posted: 23rd Sep 2009
"no child left behind" in this entire context is more than frivolous...

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 23rd Sep 2009
I’m not sure about the Black Saturday bush fires this year, but the military has certainly helped fight previous bush fires.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 23rd Sep 2009
Thanks Stone.

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK