Forums > Social Discussion > The ethics of working for "the system"
Login/Join to ParticipateStargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Pardon me, it seems as if this opening post (and the headline) can be misleading for some - thus find the update here:
Semantics:
"System" (from Latin "systēma", in turn from Greek σύστημα "systēma") is a set of interacting or interdependent entities forming an integrated whole.
"The System" usually can be referred to, when talking about the government or its institutions (closer or wider in definition) - or (for that matter) when working for corporations - or when working in positions that in/directly interact with the government or large industries.
...
"Ethics" (also known as moral philosophy) is a branch of philosophy which seeks to address questions about morality (..) how moral values should be determined, how a moral outcome can be achieved in specific situations, how moral capacity or moral agency develops and what its nature is, and what moral values people actually abide by."
The above was shortly taken from Wikipedia - shortly as not to confuse you with too much science
***
Now my question: imagine yourself in (desperate) need of ca$h.
How far would you go to get it?
How much tolerance would you have for other people (doing things YOU don't necessarily approve of) in order to get it?
I would like to learn about people and their (moral) standards... and I would like to know what is beyond.
Would you sell your self? For how much?
Would you accept that other people are just going to do THAT - and not whine about it?
Where is the line? For you - and what line are you drawing for others?
Enlighten me - please.
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1250876536)
EDIT_REASON: narrowing confusion about the topic
Pardon me, it seems as if this opening post (and the headline) can be misleading for some - thus find the update here:
Semantics:
"System" (from Latin "systēma", in turn from Greek σύστημα "systēma") is a set of interacting or interdependent entities forming an integrated whole.
"The System" usually can be referred to, when talking about the government or its institutions (closer or wider in definition) - or (for that matter) when working for corporations - or when working in positions that in/directly interact with the government or large industries.
...
"Ethics" (also known as moral philosophy) is a branch of philosophy which seeks to address questions about morality (..) how moral values should be determined, how a moral outcome can be achieved in specific situations, how moral capacity or moral agency develops and what its nature is, and what moral values people actually abide by."
The above was shortly taken from Wikipedia - shortly as not to confuse you with too much science
***
Now my question: imagine yourself in (desperate) need of ca$h.
How far would you go to get it?
How much tolerance would you have for other people (doing things YOU don't necessarily approve of) in order to get it?
I would like to learn about people and their (moral) standards... and I would like to know what is beyond.
Would you sell your self? For how much?
Would you accept that other people are just going to do THAT - and not whine about it?
Where is the line? For you - and what line are you drawing for others?
Enlighten me - please.
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1250876536)
EDIT_REASON: narrowing confusion about the topic
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
You gotta do what you gotta do to put a roof over your head and food in your stomach. Especially if you have a family to support.
And not quite so drastically as this, but I'm now in need of my drivers license (which goes against my personal ethics) because not having one will severely decrease my job options.
EDITED_BY: Rouge Dragon (1250575915)
EDIT_REASON: remembered something
You gotta do what you gotta do to put a roof over your head and food in your stomach. Especially if you have a family to support.
And not quite so drastically as this, but I'm now in need of my drivers license (which goes against my personal ethics) because not having one will severely decrease my job options.
EDITED_BY: Rouge Dragon (1250575915)
EDIT_REASON: remembered something
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
SILVER Member
member
108 posts
Location: Seoul, South Korea
member
108 posts
Location: Seoul, South Korea
Posted:
we need money to survive so if the only option you have is to go against your ethics for a short time then so be it. At least you'll have food and a roof over your head. and who knows, maybe seeing things from a different perspective (e.g. the vet student working in an abattoir) will reinforce or change your opinions in some way. It never hurts to see the other side.
as far as buying stocks go, you should never invest more than you're willing to lose because in the end it's another form of gambling and you should always do your research before investing rather than taking someone else's word for it.
we need money to survive so if the only option you have is to go against your ethics for a short time then so be it. At least you'll have food and a roof over your head. and who knows, maybe seeing things from a different perspective (e.g. the vet student working in an abattoir) will reinforce or change your opinions in some way. It never hurts to see the other side.
as far as buying stocks go, you should never invest more than you're willing to lose because in the end it's another form of gambling and you should always do your research before investing rather than taking someone else's word for it.
addict
489 posts
Location: Perth
489 posts
Location: Perth
Posted:
Interestingly current... Looking for jobs at the moment and a "internet marketting position" turned out the be a "fantasy phone worker" i.e. dirty phone sex line.
And it was quite good pay by the hour, I could do it from home etc..
But no, I turned it down, I don't know if it was my ethics or because I'd probably throw up or laugh depending on the caller.
Interestingly current... Looking for jobs at the moment and a "internet marketting position" turned out the be a "fantasy phone worker" i.e. dirty phone sex line.
And it was quite good pay by the hour, I could do it from home etc..
But no, I turned it down, I don't know if it was my ethics or because I'd probably throw up or laugh depending on the caller.
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
That's an interesting point - sex industry.
Apparently quite a high number of brothel workers in Melbourne are uni students because while they're not with a client they can sit and study and they make more in one night than they otherwise would in a week - pays stupidly high Melbourne rent, pays for their food, pays for stupidly high uni fees and still gives them time to study. Ah! Here we go!
Some days I eve considered taking my clothes off to earn more money so I could work less...but the thought didn't last long because Melbourne is too small. And I'm too much of a prude anyways hahaha!
That's an interesting point - sex industry.
Apparently quite a high number of brothel workers in Melbourne are uni students because while they're not with a client they can sit and study and they make more in one night than they otherwise would in a week - pays stupidly high Melbourne rent, pays for their food, pays for stupidly high uni fees and still gives them time to study. Ah! Here we go!
Some days I eve considered taking my clothes off to earn more money so I could work less...but the thought didn't last long because Melbourne is too small. And I'm too much of a prude anyways hahaha!
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
In some cases I think you may need to go against your ethics but on the whole I don't think you should need too. if you "jump the bars" or "park in the wrong spaces" how many ethics do you actually have? technically those 2 activities would be "theft" and "inconveniencing those with physical difficulties" neither of which seem very ethical (unless you count bad ethics as your way of life and if that was the case why worry?
The vegetarianism one I will admit can have positive ethics however if everyone was vegetarian pigs would soon become extinct as they really have little use except for bacon and childrens stories.
Mis-selling for profit I agree is terrible and should be considered fraudulent. |If that was done by a bank I would like to think the law would be able to intervene. The vetinary student should have realised that not all dealing with animals is bandaging injured puppies.
I feel if you are going to do a job then you should do it right. I don't mean pressurising people into doing things they don't want to (sales can be a tricky concept, where the goal is to make someone do something they aren't necessarily wanting to) if you don't you aren't just letting down your employer, you are showinig people that your not able to perform the task and letting yourself down.
If you are desperate for money you have to decide how important your morals are, are they worth dying for? or in real terms are they worth suffering for? if not then maybe your ethics aren't as high/important as you thought they were and you are selfish after all (for a given value of selfish) You have to decide whether your ethics or yourself are more important. This sliding scale gives us everything from doctors to criminals the first giving all there time to save the sick, risking infectious disease and getting very little personal time to save others to the second who are people who feel that the self is the most important thing stealing and murdering to take what they feel they need/want.
I don't think we are "born" to be anything, I feel how we are raised and the lessons we learn through life help us to decide what we feel is the level of "want" that we associate with ourselves. people can change
In some cases I think you may need to go against your ethics but on the whole I don't think you should need too. if you "jump the bars" or "park in the wrong spaces" how many ethics do you actually have? technically those 2 activities would be "theft" and "inconveniencing those with physical difficulties" neither of which seem very ethical (unless you count bad ethics as your way of life and if that was the case why worry?
The vegetarianism one I will admit can have positive ethics
however if everyone was vegetarian pigs would soon become extinct as they really have little use except for bacon and childrens stories.Mis-selling for profit I agree is terrible and should be considered fraudulent. |If that was done by a bank I would like to think the law would be able to intervene. The vetinary student should have realised that not all dealing with animals is bandaging injured puppies.
I feel if you are going to do a job then you should do it right. I don't mean pressurising people into doing things they don't want to (sales can be a tricky concept, where the goal is to make someone do something they aren't necessarily wanting to) if you don't you aren't just letting down your employer, you are showinig people that your not able to perform the task and letting yourself down.
If you are desperate for money you have to decide how important your morals are, are they worth dying for? or in real terms are they worth suffering for? if not then maybe your ethics aren't as high/important as you thought they were and you are selfish after all (for a given value of selfish) You have to decide whether your ethics or yourself are more important. This sliding scale gives us everything from doctors to criminals the first giving all there time to save the sick, risking infectious disease and getting very little personal time to save others to the second who are people who feel that the self is the most important thing stealing and murdering to take what they feel they need/want.
I don't think we are "born" to be anything, I feel how we are raised and the lessons we learn through life help us to decide what we feel is the level of "want" that we associate with ourselves. people can change
A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
means over measures?
means over measures?
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
Mission: Ignition
534 posts
Location: Central New Jersey, USA
Mission: Ignition
534 posts
Location: Central New Jersey, USA
Posted:
Mynci has a point, if you are doing a job, do it right. There are times in my job working as a tech on a psych floor that we have to force medication on commited patients. I don't always agree that they really even need to be so heavily sedated, I think there are better ways, but that isn't my place to disagree. It pays for my school, its a stable job.
There are ways to avoid the system, but the system is our society, these jobs need to be done. Its hard to live half in and half out of the system. Such as having stable housing and food from a stable clean market and not have a job to support yourself. You can go live in a commune, which does seem nice but can you go without all the nifty gadgets we all love so much.
Mynci has a point, if you are doing a job, do it right. There are times in my job working as a tech on a psych floor that we have to force medication on commited patients. I don't always agree that they really even need to be so heavily sedated, I think there are better ways, but that isn't my place to disagree. It pays for my school, its a stable job.
There are ways to avoid the system, but the system is our society, these jobs need to be done. Its hard to live half in and half out of the system. Such as having stable housing and food from a stable clean market and not have a job to support yourself. You can go live in a commune, which does seem nice but can you go without all the nifty gadgets we all love so much.
Don't mind me, just passing through.
GOLD Member
Mission: Ignition
534 posts
Location: Central New Jersey, USA
Mission: Ignition
534 posts
Location: Central New Jersey, USA
Posted:
Hey Rougie, I've heard of people not wanting to drive for a lot of reasons, but I don't think any of them were ever ethical. I'm curious as to why you don't want to.
Hey Rougie, I've heard of people not wanting to drive for a lot of reasons, but I don't think any of them were ever ethical. I'm curious as to why you don't want to.
Don't mind me, just passing through.
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
Ethical may have been the wrong word (I'm still trying to remember some of my fancier English words lol! I started with "believe in driving" but it sounded crap cos driving *does* exist haha) but environmentally, a car is a pretty bad step. And in a city like Melbourne it's completely not needed. There are ways to get around without needing to pollute the air with filthy filthy car fumes, or to at least reduce them (public transport, for example)
Plus as a cyclist I not only don't contribute to the environmental disaster that is cars, I don't add to the traffic, I save a stackload of money, I stay fit and healthy, I look hot...And in Melbourne's city I was actually faster than any other form of transport (cars, trams, walking, waiting for the trains)
Ethical may have been the wrong word (I'm still trying to remember some of my fancier English words lol! I started with "believe in driving" but it sounded crap cos driving *does* exist haha) but environmentally, a car is a pretty bad step. And in a city like Melbourne it's completely not needed. There are ways to get around without needing to pollute the air with filthy filthy car fumes, or to at least reduce them (public transport, for example)
Plus as a cyclist I not only don't contribute to the environmental disaster that is cars, I don't add to the traffic, I save a stackload of money, I stay fit and healthy, I look hot...And in Melbourne's city I was actually faster than any other form of transport (cars, trams, walking, waiting for the trains)
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Rougie, that's one of the examples I'm referring to.
Cyclists moan over motorists and vice versa - often changing positions within a few days or even hours...
Now when applied to "work ethics", it might not be the same dimension (as in timeline), still it's the same foundation as on both sides of the counter are (human) beings who just do their job(s)... I'm in no (moralist) position to judge over criminals and dislike black/white as in opposition to grayscale (in general)...
I'm even wondering about the extremes this entire topic could be taken to...
ever heard of this book?
Rougie, that's one of the examples I'm referring to.
Cyclists moan over motorists and vice versa - often changing positions within a few days or even hours...
Now when applied to "work ethics", it might not be the same dimension (as in timeline), still it's the same foundation as on both sides of the counter are (human) beings who just do their job(s)... I'm in no (moralist) position to judge over criminals and dislike black/white as in opposition to grayscale (in general)...
I'm even wondering about the extremes this entire topic could be taken to...
ever heard of this book?
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
Mission: Ignition
534 posts
Location: Central New Jersey, USA
Mission: Ignition
534 posts
Location: Central New Jersey, USA
Posted:
Great book. It was a bad movie if I'm not mistaken too. It goes along with the theory of just following orders and just doing a job. It does bring up an interesting point. How far will you go before you stop and think something is wrong? I watched a documentary on the Amazon rainforests once about a child and father. The father was a logger and was destroying the place he loved, but if he didn't his children would starve to death... What is the right answer there? He knew it was wrong, but can you live with your starving family because of your morals?
Great book. It was a bad movie if I'm not mistaken too. It goes along with the theory of just following orders and just doing a job. It does bring up an interesting point. How far will you go before you stop and think something is wrong? I watched a documentary on the Amazon rainforests once about a child and father. The father was a logger and was destroying the place he loved, but if he didn't his children would starve to death... What is the right answer there? He knew it was wrong, but can you live with your starving family because of your morals?
Don't mind me, just passing through.
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
'cept I don't change within the space of a few hours
I don't know the book or the film but I'm aware of the problem on a much closer level (without the starvation level and not the Amazon and not something I like talking about on a public board...but there's a parallel)
'cept I don't change within the space of a few hours
I don't know the book or the film but I'm aware of the problem on a much closer level (without the starvation level and not the Amazon and not something I like talking about on a public board...but there's a parallel)
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
Sometimes however you "need" a car for a job. I have one, yes I can live without one, have done many times as my numerous vehicles spontaneously combust, as I live in a city. but my city is surrounded by anti-city I.e trees, moors, sea and I do fire gigs etc so need a car to travel to get to out of the way venues with large amounts of kit. Rougie sounds like she is in the dilema of ethics over personal choice. she doesn't need a car except for possible future jobs.
I could give up my car but then I'd have to give up part of my income and a hobby as all my spinning and fire kit is too much to carry around even to the nearest park it would take a couple of trips to bring all my stuff (juggling props, staffs, fuel, dipping equipment, fire blanket etc.) and involve leaving them unattended whilst I went back for the next trip (not a good idea in my area) I choose to limit my vehicular use to gigs or journeys over 20 miles not (Like Rouge) because of the environment (I'm no eco-hippie) but because of cost, petrol is expensive.
The amount of jobs that require driving are increasing as more people want quicker deliveries, quicker response times by emergency services and or to turn up to a meeting in a tidy state. I do think location has a lot to do with car use, Rouge In melbourne could probably ride to work most days and turn up clean and dry. If I rode a bike to work 9 out of 10 days I would arrive soaked to the skin because of rain or surface water.
Drivers only moan about "bad" cyclists the ones who don't indicate or use lights / hi vis at night. mostly I only scream at cyclists because I DON'T want to kill one but they seem to be trying to test my resolve 
some bikes are very sensible... they are chained to a post somewhere
Sometimes however you "need" a car for a job. I have one, yes I can live without one, have done many times as my numerous vehicles spontaneously combust, as I live in a city. but my city is surrounded by anti-city I.e trees, moors, sea and I do fire gigs etc so need a car to travel to get to out of the way venues with large amounts of kit. Rougie sounds like she is in the dilema of ethics over personal choice. she doesn't need a car except for possible future jobs.
I could give up my car but then I'd have to give up part of my income and a hobby as all my spinning and fire kit is too much to carry around even to the nearest park it would take a couple of trips to bring all my stuff (juggling props, staffs, fuel, dipping equipment, fire blanket etc.) and involve leaving them unattended whilst I went back for the next trip (not a good idea in my area) I choose to limit my vehicular use to gigs or journeys over 20 miles not (Like Rouge) because of the environment (I'm no eco-hippie) but because of cost, petrol is expensive.
The amount of jobs that require driving are increasing as more people want quicker deliveries, quicker response times by emergency services and or to turn up to a meeting in a tidy state. I do think location has a lot to do with car use, Rouge In melbourne could probably ride to work most days and turn up clean and dry. If I rode a bike to work 9 out of 10 days I would arrive soaked to the skin because of rain or surface water.
Drivers only moan about "bad" cyclists
the ones who don't indicate or use lights / hi vis at night. mostly I only scream at cyclists because I DON'T want to kill one but they seem to be trying to test my resolve some bikes are very sensible... they are chained to a post somewhere A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
oh hello again HoP!
Now I've been allowed to sign in again, let's see if I'm allowed to post....
oh hello again HoP!
Now I've been allowed to sign in again, let's see if I'm allowed to post....
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
ok well that's embarrassing (although not as embarrassing as the conversation I was having with myself while it wasn't working for me 
)
*cough*
I don't see it as a dilemma of ethics over personal choice. Ethics is personal choice.
ok well that's embarrassing
(although not as embarrassing as the conversation I was having with myself while it wasn't working for me )*cough*
I don't see it as a dilemma of ethics over personal choice. Ethics is personal choice.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted:
Do the job the right way, and you arent going against your ethics. Eg - I could be a crap teacher that doesnt care about my students learning and still draw pay - or I could be a good teacher that does care about my students, and still get the same pay. I think your personal ethics are important in every situation, and you shouldn't sacrifice them 'to put a roof over your head' - because realistically in the vast majority of situations you don't have to and it doesn't come to that.
I think our society is screwed up because many people believe that its ok to do the wrong thing (ie go against what you know is right) to get by. Of course, getting by in this case means getting just about everything you want - ie big house, car with aircon, $250 supermarket bills filled with crap etc etc.
Do the job the right way, and you arent going against your ethics. Eg - I could be a crap teacher that doesnt care about my students learning and still draw pay - or I could be a good teacher that does care about my students, and still get the same pay. I think your personal ethics are important in every situation, and you shouldn't sacrifice them 'to put a roof over your head' - because realistically in the vast majority of situations you don't have to and it doesn't come to that.
I think our society is screwed up because many people believe that its ok to do the wrong thing (ie go against what you know is right) to get by. Of course, getting by in this case means getting just about everything you want - ie big house, car with aircon, $250 supermarket bills filled with crap etc etc.
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
BRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted:
Also - I think that people who dont believe in working 'for the system' should also exist totally separate from the system. Be in it, and try to change it if you don't like it, or get out of it all together. To say that you can't 'work for the system' because of ethical reasons, while still drawing all kinds of benefit from the system is more than a bit hypocritical.
Also - I think that people who dont believe in working 'for the system' should also exist totally separate from the system. Be in it, and try to change it if you don't like it, or get out of it all together. To say that you can't 'work for the system' because of ethical reasons, while still drawing all kinds of benefit from the system is more than a bit hypocritical.
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
SILVER Member
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Posted:
You raise an interesting point, Pyrolific. 'The system' as referred to here I believe refers to components of the larger structure that you've referred to as 'the system'.
The best analogy I can think of is a system of cogs... You can drift around this larger system and manipulate its workings by adding momentum or removing momentum from the cogs that you agree/disagree with.
Essentially, I guess you'd have to support the cogs that you agree with and in that way attempt to have the overall system operate in a way that pleases your ethical outlook.
Working in any way is working for the system because you should be paying tax anyhow.
Whats my outlook? There are many things I don't agree with, many things I think I cannot change, many things I think I can. I'm happy to operate within my own sphere of influence and just do the best I can. I'm more likely to offer strength to a cog pushing in the opposite direction to something I disagree with than to try to actually slow the cog I disagree with directly unless of course its something reprehensible.
You raise an interesting point, Pyrolific. 'The system' as referred to here I believe refers to components of the larger structure that you've referred to as 'the system'.
The best analogy I can think of is a system of cogs... You can drift around this larger system and manipulate its workings by adding momentum or removing momentum from the cogs that you agree/disagree with.
Essentially, I guess you'd have to support the cogs that you agree with and in that way attempt to have the overall system operate in a way that pleases your ethical outlook.
Working in any way is working for the system because you should be paying tax anyhow.
Whats my outlook? There are many things I don't agree with, many things I think I cannot change, many things I think I can. I'm happy to operate within my own sphere of influence and just do the best I can. I'm more likely to offer strength to a cog pushing in the opposite direction to something I disagree with than to try to actually slow the cog I disagree with directly unless of course its something reprehensible.
GOLD Member
Mission: Ignition
534 posts
Location: Central New Jersey, USA
Mission: Ignition
534 posts
Location: Central New Jersey, USA
Posted:
I think pyrolific said it better than I did. If you don't like the system then leave. While totally leaving is a mostly impractical choice most of the time, MNS has a good analogy. Its easier to complain and push against a force you don't like, but really, the larger force will still do everything it wants to. Its much more productive to be a positive force and take a step in the right direction.
If you think driving is wrong you could go out and say blow up some cars. People will still drive, there will be more cars made. Or you could ride a bike.
I think pyrolific said it better than I did. If you don't like the system then leave. While totally leaving is a mostly impractical choice most of the time, MNS has a good analogy. Its easier to complain and push against a force you don't like, but really, the larger force will still do everything it wants to. Its much more productive to be a positive force and take a step in the right direction.
If you think driving is wrong you could go out and say blow up some cars. People will still drive, there will be more cars made. Or you could ride a bike.
Don't mind me, just passing through.
PLATINUM Member
Will carpal your tunnel in a minute.
3,286 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Will carpal your tunnel in a minute.
3,286 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
If you don't like vegemite, don't turn your nose up at it and walk away... Eat more of it so there's less in the world
If you don't like vegemite, don't turn your nose up at it and walk away... Eat more of it so there's less in the world
ॐ
Owner of burningoftheclavey
Owned by Lost83spy
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
^^
So I do know that violence is "wrong" - still I need a job and the only one I can get at the time in that area is to work... say for the military. Soon I'm deeply enmeshed in the system and fight on the side of the "Blue Meanies" - well not because I really "hate music", but because I need bread on the table to feed my family and give them a roof over the head and - because I want to do the job right - over time I become the "Chief Blue Meanie"...
And still I want to do the job right and it's the only thing I know and I'm good at it... But certainly waging wars is disliked by those who loose it (always been - only these days, wars are also disliked by some of those who win it)...
can't make it up for everyone at the same time.
Originally Posted By: some"If you don't like the system get out - if you stay, stop moaning about it..."
Hang on a second, what the hoax are you talking about? Your name ain't Khamenei, I hope...
Presume I do l.o.v.e. the country(side) but I don't really appreciate most or some of the people who inhabit it... unfortunately they have the say (at this time) - or belong to the democratic majority.
Oops and now I happen to have friends who get oppressed - or I am part of a(n ethnic) minority myself. Now am I to leave the place of my birth?
I could save lives, or try to "change the system" from within, maybe even by working with or even FOR the system - but doing an awfully bad job at it and ooops - by mistake - eventually Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart Club Band is free again, music playing everywhere "(thanks to a hole carried in Ringo's pocket from the Sea of Holes), Jeremy is rescued, colour and flowers rebloom, and Pepperland is restored. The Blue Meanies are forced to retreat, but John extends an offer of friendship, and the Chief Blue Meanie has a change of heart (partly due to some "transformation magic" performed by Jeremy), and accepts. An enormous party ensues, with everyone living happily ever after."
Child soldiers don't know that violence is "wrong", the son of a general's son, the daughter of a con man's daughter - they just never learnt any better.
Are we not all just children, same as "them"?
^^
So I do know that violence is "wrong" - still I need a job and the only one I can get at the time in that area is to work... say for the military. Soon I'm deeply enmeshed in the system and fight on the side of the "Blue Meanies" - well not because I really "hate music", but because I need bread on the table to feed my family and give them a roof over the head and - because I want to do the job right - over time I become the "Chief Blue Meanie"...
And still I want to do the job right and it's the only thing I know and I'm good at it... But certainly waging wars is disliked by those who loose it (always been - only these days, wars are also disliked by some of those who win it)...
can't make it up for everyone at the same time.Originally Posted By: some"If you don't like the system get out - if you stay, stop moaning about it..."
Hang on a second, what the hoax are you talking about? Your name ain't Khamenei, I hope...
Presume I do l.o.v.e. the country(side) but I don't really appreciate most or some of the people who inhabit it... unfortunately they have the say (at this time) - or belong to the democratic majority.
Oops and now I happen to have friends who get oppressed - or I am part of a(n ethnic) minority myself. Now am I to leave the place of my birth?
I could save lives, or try to "change the system" from within, maybe even by working with or even FOR the system - but doing an awfully bad job at it and ooops - by mistake - eventually Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart Club Band is free again, music playing everywhere "(thanks to a hole carried in Ringo's pocket from the Sea of Holes), Jeremy is rescued, colour and flowers rebloom, and Pepperland is restored. The Blue Meanies are forced to retreat, but John extends an offer of friendship, and the Chief Blue Meanie has a change of heart (partly due to some "transformation magic" performed by Jeremy), and accepts. An enormous party ensues, with everyone living happily ever after."
Child soldiers don't know that violence is "wrong", the son of a general's son, the daughter of a con man's daughter - they just never learnt any better.
Are we not all just children, same as "them"?
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
SILVER Member
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Posted:
I'm not living in a totalitarian society so I can't say that oppression is really a big issue for me, I disagree with military application, fiscal dispersal and industrial environmental choices... if I was in a totalitarian society I would NOT work for the system unless I had some sort of way of bringing it down from the inside which I would likely be too cowardly to pursue.
I dont understand how the resistance movement is working for 'the system' Are they not working against 'the system' while Schindler works FOR (he never actually produced any weapon capable of firing)
I'm not living in a totalitarian society so I can't say that oppression is really a big issue for me, I disagree with military application, fiscal dispersal and industrial environmental choices... if I was in a totalitarian society I would NOT work for the system unless I had some sort of way of bringing it down from the inside which I would likely be too cowardly to pursue.
I dont understand how the resistance movement is working for 'the system' Are they not working against 'the system' while Schindler works FOR (he never actually produced any weapon capable of firing)
BRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
a variety of different ethics seems to strike a balance, when you get an imbalance action occurs towards that ethical goal, the variety of ethics would therefore "make" the system, as MNS says they would prefer to aid a cog working against what was against his ethics than slow one. surely then the sheer mix of ethics is what keeps the society rolling, if everyone believed the same could we run afoul?
could the utopia people want actually be self defeating? eg everyone wants to help africa so everyone goes there to help out, eventually there would be no money left as no-one was working just volunteering, the matched ethics would bring about the defeat of the purpose... even africa requires it's gas guzzling US executives who don't care about it or the environment, to allow money from taxes to be funnelled into international aid to help support the volunteers whose ethics helped them decide to go in the first place.
(well not quite how I wanted to put it, it's too early for clear communication )
this makes me feel the diversity of ethics (to an extent) helps "the system" yes they may all have a strong work ethic but may have very different ethic views on other points. it's almost the contention between views which allows things to get done, if everyone drove the environment would be a state. if no-one drove millions would be out of work in the manufacturing industries creating massive unemployment lower taxes and less money into green research as money would go towards creating jobs.
if everyone used recyclable bio materials the demand would get so high valuable arrable land would be used for that rather than food production so for an increase green resources we would see a reduction in food production as well as an increase in price.
it seems to me the diversity of ethics are more important than the ethics themselves. Therefore no-ones ethical views are wrong. (not quite true but generally) almost any viewpoint can be reasonably defended if you think about the "cogs of society"
You can't "leave" the system, the act of trying will contribute none-the-less to the whole.
a variety of different ethics seems to strike a balance, when you get an imbalance action occurs towards that ethical goal, the variety of ethics would therefore "make" the system, as MNS says they would prefer to aid a cog working against what was against his ethics than slow one. surely then the sheer mix of ethics is what keeps the society rolling, if everyone believed the same could we run afoul?
could the utopia people want actually be self defeating? eg everyone wants to help africa so everyone goes there to help out, eventually there would be no money left as no-one was working just volunteering, the matched ethics would bring about the defeat of the purpose... even africa requires it's gas guzzling US executives who don't care about it or the environment, to allow money from taxes to be funnelled into international aid to help support the volunteers whose ethics helped them decide to go in the first place.
(well not quite how I wanted to put it, it's too early for clear communication
)this makes me feel the diversity of ethics (to an extent) helps "the system" yes they may all have a strong work ethic but may have very different ethic views on other points. it's almost the contention between views which allows things to get done, if everyone drove the environment would be a state. if no-one drove millions would be out of work in the manufacturing industries creating massive unemployment lower taxes and less money into green research as money would go towards creating jobs.
if everyone used recyclable bio materials the demand would get so high valuable arrable land would be used for that rather than food production so for an increase green resources we would see a reduction in food production as well as an increase in price.
it seems to me the diversity of ethics are more important than the ethics themselves. Therefore no-ones ethical views are wrong. (not quite true but generally) almost any viewpoint can be reasonably defended if you think about the "cogs of society"
You can't "leave" the system, the act of trying will contribute none-the-less to the whole.
A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
MNS maybe you mixed up the links - Schindler was working "with" and some of the German resistance "for" the system. My grandfather has been producing steel (which then has been used to manufacture tanks) - he got accused of (willingly) producing faulty material and subsequently sabotage, earning him a hefty treatment by the GeStaPo, which then led to his earlier demise.
Somehow I wished the accusations were solid, but he has been one who "wanted to do the job right" - having had 6 children to feed.
As far as "totalitarian" goes... it's not "the end of days" and the kingdom too has no unstained vest.
Originally Posted By: MNSif I was in a totalitarian society I would NOT work for the system
Sorry, by living in this country you inevitably WILL be working FOR the system, no matter whether you take a job in the government or not, because (as has been said) at least you will have to pay taxes this is why it is called "a system", because it contains numerous different departments, which form it.
Originally Posted By: MynciYou can't "leave" the system, the act of trying will contribute none-the-less to the whole.
Possibly so but definitely you shouldn't "have to" upon request, as this would be totalitarianism.
MNS maybe you mixed up the links - Schindler was working "with" and some of the German resistance "for" the system. My grandfather has been producing steel (which then has been used to manufacture tanks) - he got accused of (willingly) producing faulty material and subsequently sabotage, earning him a hefty treatment by the GeStaPo, which then led to his earlier demise.
Somehow I wished the accusations were solid, but he has been one who "wanted to do the job right" - having had 6 children to feed.
As far as "totalitarian" goes... it's not "the end of days" and the kingdom too has no unstained vest.
Originally Posted By: MNSif I was in a totalitarian society I would NOT work for the system
Sorry, by living in this country you inevitably WILL be working FOR the system, no matter whether you take a job in the government or not, because (as has been said) at least you will have to pay taxes
this is why it is called "a system", because it contains numerous different departments, which form it.Originally Posted By: MynciYou can't "leave" the system, the act of trying will contribute none-the-less to the whole.
Possibly so but definitely you shouldn't "have to" upon request, as this would be totalitarianism.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
SILVER Member
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Posted:
I don't live in a totalitarian society... if it became one I would likely make an attempt to resist since its rather difficult to flee an entire continent like ours...
Do you remember who said you'd still be paying taxes?? It was me. Even if I was still paying tax to support the machine then I would hopefully be pushing other cogs a lot harder than my hard earned pushes their cogs... though examining what my actions would be in a hypothetical totalitarian society isnt really constructive since I do not live in one and theres no reason to believe I will be any time soon.
You can always grow your own food and be self sustaining... not easy, but its a way to duck out of 'the system'
I think that largely the issue here is in over simplification... there is a lot more to it than just "This system" or "that system" or "No system" Which is why I brought the cogs into it... I don't support the cogs that work against my own idealised version of the system, I instead support the cogs that I feel contribute to my own personal world view.
If you're going to throw a blanket reference to "the system" and then tell me I can't not support "the system" because of my contribution through tax then it negates the point of the thread or is this a thread on the ethics of paying taxes?
Could you please explain your student sex workers link a bit more?
I don't live in a totalitarian society... if it became one I would likely make an attempt to resist since its rather difficult to flee an entire continent like ours...
Do you remember who said you'd still be paying taxes?? It was me. Even if I was still paying tax to support the machine then I would hopefully be pushing other cogs a lot harder than my hard earned pushes their cogs... though examining what my actions would be in a hypothetical totalitarian society isnt really constructive since I do not live in one and theres no reason to believe I will be any time soon.
You can always grow your own food and be self sustaining... not easy, but its a way to duck out of 'the system'
I think that largely the issue here is in over simplification... there is a lot more to it than just "This system" or "that system" or "No system" Which is why I brought the cogs into it... I don't support the cogs that work against my own idealised version of the system, I instead support the cogs that I feel contribute to my own personal world view.
If you're going to throw a blanket reference to "the system" and then tell me I can't not support "the system" because of my contribution through tax then it negates the point of the thread or is this a thread on the ethics of paying taxes?
Could you please explain your student sex workers link a bit more?
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
I brought that into the thread because it's an indication of doing people need to to make ends meet.
I brought that into the thread because it's an indication of doing people need to to make ends meet.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
SILVER Member
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Posted:
Ohhh! So you did! I understood it in that context, but the way it now appears in the OP threw me off. My mind must be getting off track, Beth!
Ohhh! So you did! I understood it in that context, but the way it now appears in the OP threw me off. My mind must be getting off track, Beth!
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
You're getting old. Drink some more children's blood.
You're getting old. Drink some more children's blood.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
it wouldn't be totalitarianism if YOU decided you had to too, that makes it totalitarian if you disagree with the request if you accept it there is no control. it only works from the outside looking in not the inside looking out.
actually looking at the similarities the above is pretty much what most organised religions (cults) are.
here's the wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism
Read the first paragraph, the only difference is it mentions political and even then religion seems to scare politicians as none will stand up to the big ones.
Public has no say in decision making, controlled ideology and propoganda, restriction of criticism ... yep lets lock up the pope the catholics in the crusades were pretty similar to hitler - murder for wealth.
I suppose Ethics depend upon the end of the ethic you are looking at. it's essentially no more than a name for a set of beliefs (I don't want to drag this into religion but the subject does have a big hold on the world especially ethics so I'll leave it alone now.
it wouldn't be totalitarianism if YOU decided you had to too, that makes it totalitarian if you disagree with the request if you accept it there is no control. it only works from the outside looking in not the inside looking out.
actually looking at the similarities the above is pretty much what most organised religions (cults) are.
here's the wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism
Read the first paragraph, the only difference is it mentions political and even then religion seems to scare politicians as none will stand up to the big ones.
Public has no say in decision making, controlled ideology and propoganda, restriction of criticism ... yep lets lock up the pope
the catholics in the crusades were pretty similar to hitler - murder for wealth.I suppose Ethics depend upon the end of the ethic you are looking at. it's essentially no more than a name for a set of beliefs (I don't want to drag this into religion but the subject does have a big hold on the world especially ethics so I'll leave it alone now.
A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
Originally Posted By: Rouge DragonI brought that into the thread because it's an indication of doing people need to to make ends meet.
I evidently posted that too soon after coming home from the pub.
That should say "I brought that into the thread because it's an indication of things people do to make ends meet"
Originally Posted By: Rouge DragonI brought that into the thread because it's an indication of doing people need to to make ends meet.
I evidently posted that too soon after coming home from the pub.
That should say "I brought that into the thread because it's an indication of things people do to make ends meet"
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
© 1998 - 2025 Home of Poi
All prices converted to United States dollars using XE.com