Forums > Social Discussion > Public Opinion of Circus Arts
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Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Posted:
Some background first:
As some of you are aware I work in a Circus School. We are part of the Conservatoire of Dance and Drama (CDD), which a group of small specialist universities in the UK (specialist as the teachers are also profesional performers therefore providing them with links to some of the top people in their area). The schools in the CDD include the famous acting school LAMDA, Central School of Ballet, Rambert, RADA etc...
So every day I get emails or telephone calls saying, "I'm a from charity/big event and we're holding a party/event/fundraiser, can we have some of your students here to perform, it would be an excellent opportunity for them..." or something similar always offering no money, no expenses. Today I even had one saying she was holding a party for her friend!!
Now our students a) can't work during the day as they are training, b) don't need 'the experiance' of working their arse off for no money. They get paid gigs, in the last holidays we had students performing in China, Portugal and Spain!
Now wondering if the other schools we are affiliated with get the same questions we phoned them up, and none did. But we're also part of the European Circus School network FEDEC, we asked some of them, and they had the same thing.
So people aren't willing to ask LAMDA 'can we have a student to come and act for free, it'd be an excellent opportunity for them', but are quite willing to ask Circus students?
Which leads me onto the Public's opinion of the Circus? Do they think we're some cheap hobby? Why do they feel they can get away without paying people in Circus? I mean the charities I can understand but we get music video producers who obviously have money, and people's private parties! Would they go up to Rambert and ask for a ballet dancer for free? No, they don't. So why Circus arts? What is making them feel like it's ok to do that to Circus?
Some background first:
As some of you are aware I work in a Circus School. We are part of the Conservatoire of Dance and Drama (CDD), which a group of small specialist universities in the UK (specialist as the teachers are also profesional performers therefore providing them with links to some of the top people in their area). The schools in the CDD include the famous acting school LAMDA, Central School of Ballet, Rambert, RADA etc...
So every day I get emails or telephone calls saying, "I'm a from charity/big event and we're holding a party/event/fundraiser, can we have some of your students here to perform, it would be an excellent opportunity for them..." or something similar always offering no money, no expenses. Today I even had one saying she was holding a party for her friend!!
Now our students a) can't work during the day as they are training, b) don't need 'the experiance' of working their arse off for no money. They get paid gigs, in the last holidays we had students performing in China, Portugal and Spain!
Now wondering if the other schools we are affiliated with get the same questions we phoned them up, and none did. But we're also part of the European Circus School network FEDEC, we asked some of them, and they had the same thing.
So people aren't willing to ask LAMDA 'can we have a student to come and act for free, it'd be an excellent opportunity for them', but are quite willing to ask Circus students?
Which leads me onto the Public's opinion of the Circus? Do they think we're some cheap hobby? Why do they feel they can get away without paying people in Circus? I mean the charities I can understand but we get music video producers who obviously have money, and people's private parties! Would they go up to Rambert and ask for a ballet dancer for free? No, they don't. So why Circus arts? What is making them feel like it's ok to do that to Circus?
Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...
BRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Posted:
Yarp - annoying as heck isn't it
Personally, I try never to refer to 'Toast as "circus" as in many minds it conjures up the wrong image, I try to say "performance arts" or even "dance".
Partly it comes down to reputation, RADA is a pretty famous, globally recognised school of dance - thus people are unlikely to approach them on the blag.
Circus, for whatever reasons, does have an image/stigma attached to it...
Same as poi does - it brings up images of hippies/students playing with toys, trying to blag their way into festivals.
I'm sure Cirque de Soleil don't get approached - again, their reputation precedes them. I would've thought having "conserveatoire" in front of your name would hint at this, but maybe it takes time for the message to filter though. I know we (Toast) have been getting fewer blag requests as time has gone on.
It's also not helped by the fact that there are several "circus performers" who are willing to perform for free.
Just as there are club dancers who'll get nightclub spots for a pittance - no better/worse than Pineapple Studio graduates, but without the weight behind them to demand (and stick to their guns about) a proper wage.
Yarp - annoying as heck isn't it
Personally, I try never to refer to 'Toast as "circus" as in many minds it conjures up the wrong image, I try to say "performance arts" or even "dance".
Partly it comes down to reputation, RADA is a pretty famous, globally recognised school of dance - thus people are unlikely to approach them on the blag.
Circus, for whatever reasons, does have an image/stigma attached to it...
Same as poi does - it brings up images of hippies/students playing with toys, trying to blag their way into festivals.
I'm sure Cirque de Soleil don't get approached - again, their reputation precedes them. I would've thought having "conserveatoire" in front of your name would hint at this, but maybe it takes time for the message to filter though. I know we (Toast) have been getting fewer blag requests as time has gone on.
It's also not helped by the fact that there are several "circus performers" who are willing to perform for free.
Just as there are club dancers who'll get nightclub spots for a pittance - no better/worse than Pineapple Studio graduates, but without the weight behind them to demand (and stick to their guns about) a proper wage.
Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
totally agree. we've been approached numerous times over the years to spin fire at this event or that. school gigs, uni gigs, church gigs.
i completely agree that circus isnt considered a serious art form, unless its done like cirque du soleil......
people are unappreciative nits. 
totally agree. we've been approached numerous times over the years to spin fire at this event or that. school gigs, uni gigs, church gigs.
i completely agree that circus isnt considered a serious art form, unless its done like cirque du soleil......
people are unappreciative nits. "but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
I don't think it's wrong for charities to ask for free gigs...except that they don't ask for them from other schools of performance. Although I do think that they should pay for expenses.
I think that part of the reason is the problem that often comes up here and that's that too often, backyard spinners will spin for free, for all the reasons already stated in other threads.
I don't think it's wrong for charities to ask for free gigs...except that they don't ask for them from other schools of performance. Although I do think that they should pay for expenses.
I think that part of the reason is the problem that often comes up here and that's that too often, backyard spinners will spin for free, for all the reasons already stated in other threads.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Yup.
Makes me want to scream.
Though here, they do ask the professional improv company for the same.
I do think if it looks like fun, then it is regarded as not work, therefore not serious and not given serious concideration. Add "student" to that and the lack of concideration grows exponentially.
It doesn't help that there are many small circus "schools" and community circus projects who will perform for free. That standard was set a long time ago.
CDS has CDM which does get hit for "freebies" by major corps because they are "students". They've put out statements about it in the past (though that was many years ago).
But now the question turns to, how do you deal with it?
Do you educate them?
Do you simply lay out requirements?
Do you just say no thanks?
And the problem with charities is that you accept for one and they all flood in. It becomes a cherry picking of which to help and which to turn down, and that sucks as well.
How do you choose?
What's the criteria?
Yup.
Makes me want to scream.
Though here, they do ask the professional improv company for the same.
I do think if it looks like fun, then it is regarded as not work, therefore not serious and not given serious concideration. Add "student" to that and the lack of concideration grows exponentially.
It doesn't help that there are many small circus "schools" and community circus projects who will perform for free. That standard was set a long time ago.
CDS has CDM which does get hit for "freebies" by major corps because they are "students". They've put out statements about it in the past (though that was many years ago).
But now the question turns to, how do you deal with it?
Do you educate them?
Do you simply lay out requirements?
Do you just say no thanks?
And the problem with charities is that you accept for one and they all flood in. It becomes a cherry picking of which to help and which to turn down, and that sucks as well.
How do you choose?
What's the criteria?
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
addict
489 posts
Location: Perth
489 posts
Location: Perth
Posted:
I think it may be because a lot of circus arts can also be busking arts. Hence we are seen as trying to 'break into' the market.
Sword swallowing acts are often with fire. As is juggling.
At first, our troupe did do some gigs that were lower paid or uni student things to get our name out there.
And now we have a really good relationship with two youth run charities in Perth (may/may not also help that I'm best friends with the co-ordinators of two of them.. :P ). And as these charities grow, so do their event budgets, and so does our pay.
And when our expenses are covered, sometimes it is a really good chance to reach out to a different audience. Or to challenge ourselves with different stages and venues.
A recent 20 minute performance was a charity gig, but it was at Perth Concert Hall, like, the place with a huge organ built into the wall, where the symphony orchestra plays. How could you pass up the chance to perform somewhere there are tiers! And having the space and audience, we really had to challenge ourselves with the music, making new costumes, using all the toys, some very VERY new.
I think because we're a troupe and basically you get our number through a website which is clearly there for business, we wouldn't get the same interest as a circus school. But we still do get a lot of charities asking. And if they agree to cover our expenses, it's then our performers choice of doing an unpaid gig.
Most of the time I'd agree. Free the whales, free tibet, feed the poor, educate the young, I'm all for it
I think there is another issue about people who do fire arts who don't ask 'enough' money which devalues the whole community. I doubt this is the place for that discussion, but at times, it is "you get what you paid for".
If someone wants someone to do it for free, often they won't have the experience/talent/extra props etc.
While if they try to approach someone higher and agree to pay partial fees, at least they know it's someone who does it professionally.
If someone asked me now to perform free "for the experience" I think I'd laugh in their face.
I think it may be because a lot of circus arts can also be busking arts. Hence we are seen as trying to 'break into' the market.
Sword swallowing acts are often with fire. As is juggling.
At first, our troupe did do some gigs that were lower paid or uni student things to get our name out there.
And now we have a really good relationship with two youth run charities in Perth (may/may not also help that I'm best friends with the co-ordinators of two of them.. :P ). And as these charities grow, so do their event budgets, and so does our pay.
And when our expenses are covered, sometimes it is a really good chance to reach out to a different audience. Or to challenge ourselves with different stages and venues.
A recent 20 minute performance was a charity gig, but it was at Perth Concert Hall, like, the place with a huge organ built into the wall, where the symphony orchestra plays. How could you pass up the chance to perform somewhere there are tiers! And having the space and audience, we really had to challenge ourselves with the music, making new costumes, using all the toys, some very VERY new.
I think because we're a troupe and basically you get our number through a website which is clearly there for business, we wouldn't get the same interest as a circus school. But we still do get a lot of charities asking. And if they agree to cover our expenses, it's then our performers choice of doing an unpaid gig.
Most of the time I'd agree. Free the whales, free tibet, feed the poor, educate the young, I'm all for it
I think there is another issue about people who do fire arts who don't ask 'enough' money which devalues the whole community. I doubt this is the place for that discussion, but at times, it is "you get what you paid for".
If someone wants someone to do it for free, often they won't have the experience/talent/extra props etc.
While if they try to approach someone higher and agree to pay partial fees, at least they know it's someone who does it professionally.
If someone asked me now to perform free "for the experience" I think I'd laugh in their face.
addict
489 posts
Location: Perth
489 posts
Location: Perth
Posted:
"And the problem with charities is that you accept for one and they all flood in. It becomes a cherry picking of which to help and which to turn down, and that sucks as well.
How do you choose?
What's the criteria?"
Well, if they cover expences, then it's if you want to support the cause, have time and it won't hinder another paid gig you have.
On this student note.. I really wish there were people who came up to me saying "Oh, you're a student doctor? Well, is it possible for you to test and diagnose and operate on me for free?"
I'd be all for it!!!
"And the problem with charities is that you accept for one and they all flood in. It becomes a cherry picking of which to help and which to turn down, and that sucks as well.
How do you choose?
What's the criteria?"
Well, if they cover expences, then it's if you want to support the cause, have time and it won't hinder another paid gig you have.
On this student note.. I really wish there were people who came up to me saying "Oh, you're a student doctor? Well, is it possible for you to test and diagnose and operate on me for free?"
I'd be all for it!!!
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
I admit, completely off topic but this really has me interested.
Since I'm associated with the Sword Swallower's Association International and know many of it's members personally, I know most do nothing with fire. This has me confused and I would love to understand this statement more. Thanks.
Back on topic, most of the charities that approach us don't offer any travel/expense stipend. They simply say "We'll give you a receipt for your taxes." Them saying that always makes me feel like our arts are being regarded as a drop off of second hand clothing at the Salvation Army. This is not saying we don't do charity shows, we do and our criteria is actually an expense stipend and what we believe in.
But that is as a group.
Individuals within the group are welcome to do charity shows under their own names as they choose.
However, if no stipend is offered, what would be your criteria?
For me, I am more apt to help small charities over large ones. I am also more apt to help local over national/international. However, I find they tend to not only have the most respect for what we do, they also tend to promote hiring us to others, which helps alot.
Written by :natasqi
Sword swallowing acts are often with fire. As is juggling.
I admit, completely off topic but this really has me interested.
Since I'm associated with the Sword Swallower's Association International and know many of it's members personally, I know most do nothing with fire. This has me confused and I would love to understand this statement more. Thanks.
Back on topic, most of the charities that approach us don't offer any travel/expense stipend. They simply say "We'll give you a receipt for your taxes." Them saying that always makes me feel like our arts are being regarded as a drop off of second hand clothing at the Salvation Army. This is not saying we don't do charity shows, we do and our criteria is actually an expense stipend and what we believe in.
But that is as a group.
Individuals within the group are welcome to do charity shows under their own names as they choose.
However, if no stipend is offered, what would be your criteria?
For me, I am more apt to help small charities over large ones. I am also more apt to help local over national/international. However, I find they tend to not only have the most respect for what we do, they also tend to promote hiring us to others, which helps alot.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
Lol... as it happens, I just got a phonecall there now from yet another person asking us to do a gig 'for a charity'.
When you say how much it will cost they say 'but it's a charity!' and then act offended, as though you have personally insulted their charity of choice, and also are obviously a cold-hearted biatch who never does anything for anybody else... rarrgh.
I even told one charity that if they paid me properly, I'd make my own donation to that charity... needless to say, that booking didn't go ahead.
Anyways... yes, circus is massively undervalued, but then circus performers and street artists have been considered the lowest of the low since time began (street performers were traditionally seen as beggars, looking for money by doing tricks).
Talent shows don't help... there's a great post on Emerald Circus about this, taken from Gatto's website... (unfortunately, that website is barred from my work?)
I think shows like Cirque and Lucient Dossier are doing good work in changing public opinion, but I think the best way we can help is if you're doing gigs, to ALWAYS do it professionally, not spraying fuel around, look like you know what you're doing, and don't be pissed or stoned when talking to clients or working...
Behave professionally, and eventually, people will treat us professionally...
Lol... as it happens, I just got a phonecall there now from yet another person asking us to do a gig 'for a charity'.
When you say how much it will cost they say 'but it's a charity!' and then act offended, as though you have personally insulted their charity of choice, and also are obviously a cold-hearted biatch who never does anything for anybody else... rarrgh.
I even told one charity that if they paid me properly, I'd make my own donation to that charity... needless to say, that booking didn't go ahead.
Anyways... yes, circus is massively undervalued, but then circus performers and street artists have been considered the lowest of the low since time began (street performers were traditionally seen as beggars, looking for money by doing tricks).
Talent shows don't help... there's a great post on Emerald Circus about this, taken from Gatto's website... (unfortunately, that website is barred from my work?)
I think shows like Cirque and Lucient Dossier are doing good work in changing public opinion, but I think the best way we can help is if you're doing gigs, to ALWAYS do it professionally, not spraying fuel around, look like you know what you're doing, and don't be pissed or stoned when talking to clients or working...
Behave professionally, and eventually, people will treat us professionally...
Getting to the other side 
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
A-freakin-men Clare.
Though I have to admit this made me chuckle
"look like you know what you're doing"
even when you have no clue, yeah?
A-freakin-men Clare.
Though I have to admit this made me chuckle
"look like you know what you're doing"
even when you have no clue, yeah?
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
Lol... well, it is performance art
Lol... well, it is performance art
Getting to the other side
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
This might sound harsh, but seriously, I think you might just need to get some bigger perspective, and get over it. It being that you think, by someone asking for a performer, for free, that that indicates a lack of respect, whatever, whatever. Too many assumptions there.
There is nothing wrong with people asking. Maybe you just need to work on your ability to comfortably say no, when you want or need to say no?
It really does not matter what peoples hopes or expectations or even opinions on the circus arts and performers are when they ask. You still get to look at each request fresh, open minded, and say either yes, or no. If you choose to use that opportunity to educate them on the realities of the performing arts,-- your realities keep in mind- not all performers are the same,-- fine. Do that because you want to do that.
I say this for two reasons. One, is personal philosophy, in that I always, always, beleive that you need to ask, not assume. So I might ask, even knowing something is unlikely, because you just never know, maybe there is a performer out there who just lost their lover to cancer, and would be happy to perform for free at a charity event to raise money for a cure, a meaningful performance in their memory. Maybe, someone once gave them something for free- maybe even a whole workshop or event, and they would like to offer something they can do, for free...
Their choice, no expectation. I beleive everything is possible. But if you dont ask, you will never know!I really really think it is important for people to ask for what they want, and always respect people when they do, even when I , or they, say an outright unequivicable NO!
The other reason is more practical and work related. I work with volunteer circus project. So all the performers donate their time and creativity. We could not do what we do without their generousity. And yes, I had to ask them to do that. And yes, some people I asked said no.
But, those that said yes( thanks guys) did have an amazing expereince, a chance that they would not have received through typical paid project. They got to feel the reward of their art without association to pay, to really and directly contribute personally to something amazing.they got expereince working under extremely challenging conditins, they got a sense of meaning and community.... ah, I could go on, but you get what I mean...
Some of us dont have enough money to donate or contribute to this or that deserving cause. True. Yet, some things that are very important, dont actually want your money for this , or that. What they need is your inspiration, your involvement, your vision, creativity, participation and commitment. Even if just for a night.
And there are times when the pay for that,though huge, massive, life changing-- does not involve money.
But seriously, for the other stuff, the stuff you just dont want to do, whatever your reasons, just say no. Come on, it is seconds or minutes from your day. Practice: Thanks for thinking of me, and our association of performers. However, we have a policy where we only work for paid events. So I am sorry, but we are not avaiable to offer you our professional services. Good bye."
Dont make it more than that, it idoes not need to be!
This might sound harsh, but seriously, I think you might just need to get some bigger perspective, and get over it. It being that you think, by someone asking for a performer, for free, that that indicates a lack of respect, whatever, whatever. Too many assumptions there.
There is nothing wrong with people asking. Maybe you just need to work on your ability to comfortably say no, when you want or need to say no?
It really does not matter what peoples hopes or expectations or even opinions on the circus arts and performers are when they ask. You still get to look at each request fresh, open minded, and say either yes, or no. If you choose to use that opportunity to educate them on the realities of the performing arts,-- your realities keep in mind- not all performers are the same,-- fine. Do that because you want to do that.
I say this for two reasons. One, is personal philosophy, in that I always, always, beleive that you need to ask, not assume. So I might ask, even knowing something is unlikely, because you just never know, maybe there is a performer out there who just lost their lover to cancer, and would be happy to perform for free at a charity event to raise money for a cure, a meaningful performance in their memory. Maybe, someone once gave them something for free- maybe even a whole workshop or event, and they would like to offer something they can do, for free...
Their choice, no expectation. I beleive everything is possible. But if you dont ask, you will never know!I really really think it is important for people to ask for what they want, and always respect people when they do, even when I , or they, say an outright unequivicable NO!
The other reason is more practical and work related. I work with volunteer circus project. So all the performers donate their time and creativity. We could not do what we do without their generousity. And yes, I had to ask them to do that. And yes, some people I asked said no.
But, those that said yes( thanks guys) did have an amazing expereince, a chance that they would not have received through typical paid project. They got to feel the reward of their art without association to pay, to really and directly contribute personally to something amazing.they got expereince working under extremely challenging conditins, they got a sense of meaning and community.... ah, I could go on, but you get what I mean...
Some of us dont have enough money to donate or contribute to this or that deserving cause. True. Yet, some things that are very important, dont actually want your money for this , or that. What they need is your inspiration, your involvement, your vision, creativity, participation and commitment. Even if just for a night.
And there are times when the pay for that,though huge, massive, life changing-- does not involve money.
But seriously, for the other stuff, the stuff you just dont want to do, whatever your reasons, just say no. Come on, it is seconds or minutes from your day. Practice: Thanks for thinking of me, and our association of performers. However, we have a policy where we only work for paid events. So I am sorry, but we are not avaiable to offer you our professional services. Good bye."
Dont make it more than that, it idoes not need to be!
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
BRONZE Member
1 + 1 = 3
3,540 posts
Location: Bristol UK
1 + 1 = 3
3,540 posts
Location: Bristol UK
Posted:
When asked what I do, I tell people I'm a juggler.
normally, people's first comment is 'Oh, you're a clown'.
On mainland Europe, the reply was a little different: 'Oh, you're an Artiste.
So a lot of this can depend on where you are in the world. And of course people are always gonna try and get something for free. I don't think there's anyone on this site who hasn't tried some way or other of saving money as they do something, or getting something for free. Don't ask, Don't get, simple as that.
I can see how it is annoying, though. We just can't really do anything about it that we aren't doing already.
When asked what I do, I tell people I'm a juggler.
normally, people's first comment is 'Oh, you're a clown'.
On mainland Europe, the reply was a little different: 'Oh, you're an Artiste.
So a lot of this can depend on where you are in the world. And of course people are always gonna try and get something for free. I don't think there's anyone on this site who hasn't tried some way or other of saving money as they do something, or getting something for free. Don't ask, Don't get, simple as that.
I can see how it is annoying, though. We just can't really do anything about it that we aren't doing already.
Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
Andrea, because of your own experience of needing volunteer workers for a very worthy cause, of course you're going to feel that charities should ask.
I think Ed's point is very relevant... it depends where in the world you are.
I get many, many charities assuming (and it is assumption in their voice), that you will work for free, or at the most, £50.
Of course there is an element of re-education needed, and maybe they just 'don't know any better'... but as with Pink's original question - why do people seem to automatically assume that performers should work for little or no pay?
I think this is a completely worthy question, not in relation to perspective, or getting over it, but why our art is seen as so much less credible than any others.
I can choose to do a cancer charity event, but I will (and have) approach them and offer my services. It's a very different thing for every charity in the book to expect performers to work for free... it is an impossible, and demeaning, way to exist.
(And yes, I know there are many other people living much more difficult lives... but that isn't at discussion here, and the unfairness of life is a much bigger topic, which I'm sure has been delved into before.)
Andrea, because of your own experience of needing volunteer workers for a very worthy cause, of course you're going to feel that charities should ask.
I think Ed's point is very relevant... it depends where in the world you are.
I get many, many charities assuming (and it is assumption in their voice), that you will work for free, or at the most, £50.
Of course there is an element of re-education needed, and maybe they just 'don't know any better'... but as with Pink's original question - why do people seem to automatically assume that performers should work for little or no pay?
I think this is a completely worthy question, not in relation to perspective, or getting over it, but why our art is seen as so much less credible than any others.
I can choose to do a cancer charity event, but I will (and have) approach them and offer my services. It's a very different thing for every charity in the book to expect performers to work for free... it is an impossible, and demeaning, way to exist.
(And yes, I know there are many other people living much more difficult lives... but that isn't at discussion here, and the unfairness of life is a much bigger topic, which I'm sure has been delved into before.)
Getting to the other side
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
As for charities
There are charity events where people aren't paid for their performance. That way all the money goes to the charity. That's the idea.
People donate time talent money-whatever. At the end, the organizer says that all this was donated-event location, performance, silent auction items, volunteers time, and all the money donated goes straight to the cause-no administrative fees
A lot of the charity stuff I did wouldn't have happened if we had to pay for performance, location, items etc.
As for charities
There are charity events where people aren't paid for their performance. That way all the money goes to the charity. That's the idea.
People donate time talent money-whatever. At the end, the organizer says that all this was donated-event location, performance, silent auction items, volunteers time, and all the money donated goes straight to the cause-no administrative fees
A lot of the charity stuff I did wouldn't have happened if we had to pay for performance, location, items etc.
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
Argh.
This is yet another one of these HoP questions that have no real answer and that I shouldn't have got involved with in the first place.
Righto... am off into quietness again
Argh.
This is yet another one of these HoP questions that have no real answer and that I shouldn't have got involved with in the first place.
Righto... am off into quietness again
Getting to the other side
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Posted:
The cambridge community circus quite often gets asked to do little glow gigs/workshops at fairs/etc.
However, as we're a charity in our own right, we normally ask for a £100 donation
If we're asked to do a charity gig, I think we usually ask for expenses paid: That means they'd usually get it mostly for free in Cambridge itself.
If I was supporting myself through performing, then I'd ask for at least expenses paid for a charity gig, as I'd be unlikely to be able to afford it otherwise. Alternatively I'd try to suggest someone else who might be willing to do it.
The cambridge community circus quite often gets asked to do little glow gigs/workshops at fairs/etc.
However, as we're a charity in our own right, we normally ask for a £100 donation
If we're asked to do a charity gig, I think we usually ask for expenses paid: That means they'd usually get it mostly for free in Cambridge itself.
If I was supporting myself through performing, then I'd ask for at least expenses paid for a charity gig, as I'd be unlikely to be able to afford it otherwise. Alternatively I'd try to suggest someone else who might be willing to do it.
Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant
Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.
'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
Nice one...
bah... I'm so easily persuaded... all it takes is a digitised hug.
Bah!
Nice one...
bah... I'm so easily persuaded... all it takes is a digitised hug.
Bah!
Getting to the other side
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
What I was trying to say is that asking for a performance for free is *not*!!!! inidicative of lack of respect for the artist, or for their skill set. I have also asked for free accounting services, kitchen services, web site design...With full appreciation and respect for their professional services. It is not specific to circus arts.
In no way does it mean that I dont think they do not deserve to place monetary value and have financial renummeration for their skill. We all need some money to live( well mostly).
If the situation is such that there is money for an event , or people are profiting, then of course the performers and all others involved should get their share at market value.
Yes, sometimes performers do call and offer their services for free. But many times they do not know what opportunities are out there, unless someone calls them, asks, and puts out the word about what is needed.
*And a big hug to you Miss Clare, you know I love ya!*
What I was trying to say is that asking for a performance for free is *not*!!!! inidicative of lack of respect for the artist, or for their skill set. I have also asked for free accounting services, kitchen services, web site design...With full appreciation and respect for their professional services. It is not specific to circus arts.
In no way does it mean that I dont think they do not deserve to place monetary value and have financial renummeration for their skill. We all need some money to live( well mostly).
If the situation is such that there is money for an event , or people are profiting, then of course the performers and all others involved should get their share at market value.
Yes, sometimes performers do call and offer their services for free. But many times they do not know what opportunities are out there, unless someone calls them, asks, and puts out the word about what is needed.
*And a big hug to you Miss Clare, you know I love ya!*
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
SILVER Member
member
133 posts
Location: Churchill College, Cambridge, United Kingdom
member
133 posts
Location: Churchill College, Cambridge, United Kingdom
Posted:
I've been in a situation where I've done a charity glow-show, and have been approached by one of the guests afterwards, requesting a paid fire-gig for his own event. The glow-show was only 15 minutes, at no expense to myself (a milliamps-hours of battery life?). So it was profitable for me to do this charity gig.
So charity shows have their own pull in terms of publicity. You usually get companies advertising/donating at charity-events to raise their profile. I did the same, and it payed off.
I've been in a situation where I've done a charity glow-show, and have been approached by one of the guests afterwards, requesting a paid fire-gig for his own event. The glow-show was only 15 minutes, at no expense to myself (a milliamps-hours of battery life?). So it was profitable for me to do this charity gig.
So charity shows have their own pull in terms of publicity. You usually get companies advertising/donating at charity-events to raise their profile. I did the same, and it payed off.
SILVER Member
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
I think the best approach is to begin by really and truly knowing what you are worth. When you get a request, give them a quote of how much it would cost in normal circumstances based on your current fee structure. Explain that you may choose to waive some or all of that fee, dependent on the opportunity. Ask them to quantify exactly what publicity/exposure/experience you will be getting from it (eg. a logo on the program, or a chance to meet the crown heads of europe).
You can then decide whether you want to waive all, some or none of the fee.
This has the advantage of raising people's awareness of the normal business costs, whilst leaving the door open to working for some truly worthy causes.
I think the best approach is to begin by really and truly knowing what you are worth. When you get a request, give them a quote of how much it would cost in normal circumstances based on your current fee structure. Explain that you may choose to waive some or all of that fee, dependent on the opportunity. Ask them to quantify exactly what publicity/exposure/experience you will be getting from it (eg. a logo on the program, or a chance to meet the crown heads of europe).
You can then decide whether you want to waive all, some or none of the fee.
This has the advantage of raising people's awareness of the normal business costs, whilst leaving the door open to working for some truly worthy causes.
It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.
What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
I know Andrea Looking forward to seeing you at Play
And Rozi... well put... letting them know the appropriate costs for the 6-person fire show plus full band that they imagined gives them a much better idea...
And likewise on the publicity... fire photos will always get into the local papers...
The annoying part is the expectation of so many that performance skills are not worth the same as say, a desk job.
Anyhoo... goodnight
xx
I know Andrea
Looking forward to seeing you at Play And Rozi... well put... letting them know the appropriate costs for the 6-person fire show plus full band that they imagined gives them a much better idea...
And likewise on the publicity... fire photos will always get into the local papers...
The annoying part is the expectation of so many that performance skills are not worth the same as say, a desk job.
Anyhoo... goodnight
xx
Getting to the other side
BRONZE Member
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
Posted:
My first impression on hearing "circus school" is of a whole bunch of clown riding around a classroom on their little bikes, and having been on this board for longer than I care to remember I reallt should know better, so what are the general public going to think.
I think the problem is the word "circus"; it conjurs up a load of images that are at odds with what you fellas are trying to achieve
My first impression on hearing "circus school" is of a whole bunch of clown riding around a classroom on their little bikes, and having been on this board for longer than I care to remember I reallt should know better, so what are the general public going to think.
I think the problem is the word "circus"; it conjurs up a load of images that are at odds with what you fellas are trying to achieve
There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.
SILVER Member
veteran
1,237 posts
Location: Oxfordshire, United Kingdom
veteran
1,237 posts
Location: Oxfordshire, United Kingdom
Posted:
similarly people rip off students and student societies, they think anything they offer should clearly be done for free as 'work experience' or something, and is the perfect solution instead of hiring professionals.
When Beth was running the circus thing at Brookes M&S asked for performers to cover 2 days! I don't know exactly what they offered the society, but all we got were a couple of chocolates, which were the same that they were handing out to customers anyway, and a free week lemon drink from the machine in the staff area. woo.
similarly people rip off students and student societies, they think anything they offer should clearly be done for free as 'work experience' or something, and is the perfect solution instead of hiring professionals.
When Beth was running the circus thing at Brookes M&S asked for performers to cover 2 days! I don't know exactly what they offered the society, but all we got were a couple of chocolates, which were the same that they were handing out to customers anyway, and a free week lemon drink from the machine in the staff area. woo.
Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously 
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
Just thinking, with the charities and the like, could the reason they don't contact other areas for performance such as the ballet be because it's seen as too highbrow? I was asked to perform for expenses only at a Jewish community group and having ballet there wouldn't have been appropriate for it.
Just thinking, with the charities and the like, could the reason they don't contact other areas for performance such as the ballet be because it's seen as too highbrow? I was asked to perform for expenses only at a Jewish community group and having ballet there wouldn't have been appropriate for it.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
GOLD Member
Now with extra strawberries
810 posts
Location: Canberra, Australia
Now with extra strawberries
810 posts
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posted:
Yeah we get the same thing and we perform "professionally" like for a living. I'm happy to do the odd free show here and there for an cause that I support but only if I offer or the person organising is a good friend but i will usually not do free performances if I get phoned up and requested. I figure i don't have a whole lot of money to give to the causes i support but i have other things that i can give.
I don't have a big problem with charity asking but the thing that really annoys me is when people who are working for corporate events have the gal to request you to perform for free but "Oh yeah we can't pay you or any thing"
This happened to me the other day and it made me quite angry. I was asked to perform at a local psi trance underground dance event thing where they have Dj's from all over the world and are probably paying them a good penny or two. They said this exactly "oh we can't pay you and you can have a ticket because it against our policy to give free tickets."
I'm not really a big psi trance fan and I wouldn’t have any one to go with and free ticket wouldn't be enough to get me there any way, but the fact that they phone me up and requested me to perform and then expected me to pay to get in to the event.
The "its a great opportunity" thing is a big problem here in Canberra because in pretty much all the performing arts circles the number of people that actually do it for a living is actually really small.
As far as opinions of circus vs other performing arts i think you might be underestimating how often other performers get asked to do free shows or "for the oppertunity". My boyfriend is in a band and they get asked all the time and it really drives them nuts beacuse people get really antsy when they say no but if they did all the shows they have been asked to do for free they would have no time to do there own gigs. Also i have a good friend that is a dance teacher and she always gets people ringing up and asking for free dancers.
I think the reason that event organisers always try and skimp on how much they pay performers is because a performance is not an physical object it is there for the duration of the event then it is gone and "they think" it if you are a developed performer it may seem like doing an event doesn’t cost you any thing because you already have the skills/props/equipment what they for get to realise is how much work goes in to the show that you are giving them.
I think things are never going to be perfect as far as this goes but if every performer educates people trying to book them about why paid performances is worth while then things will get better.
These are the things that i try to teach bookers and companies whey they are looking for acts:
- Most paid performers pay for their own insurance so no liability to the event
- A paid performer is more likely to turn up on time and they are probably going to be more likely to tailor their act/s to suit your even/time line if you need it.
- A paid performer has a vested interest in performing well and working hard for your event.
- A performer who is paid can usually afford to put a lot of time into developing there act and keeping it new and fresh
- A paid performer is more likely to act professionally when they are at and event
EDITED_BY: Blueberry (1211506999)
Yeah we get the same thing and we perform "professionally" like for a living. I'm happy to do the odd free show here and there for an cause that I support but only if I offer or the person organising is a good friend but i will usually not do free performances if I get phoned up and requested. I figure i don't have a whole lot of money to give to the causes i support but i have other things that i can give.
I don't have a big problem with charity asking but the thing that really annoys me is when people who are working for corporate events have the gal to request you to perform for free but "Oh yeah we can't pay you or any thing"
This happened to me the other day and it made me quite angry. I was asked to perform at a local psi trance underground dance event thing where they have Dj's from all over the world and are probably paying them a good penny or two. They said this exactly "oh we can't pay you and you can have a ticket because it against our policy to give free tickets."
I'm not really a big psi trance fan and I wouldn’t have any one to go with and free ticket wouldn't be enough to get me there any way, but the fact that they phone me up and requested me to perform and then expected me to pay to get in to the event.
The "its a great opportunity" thing is a big problem here in Canberra because in pretty much all the performing arts circles the number of people that actually do it for a living is actually really small.
As far as opinions of circus vs other performing arts i think you might be underestimating how often other performers get asked to do free shows or "for the oppertunity". My boyfriend is in a band and they get asked all the time and it really drives them nuts beacuse people get really antsy when they say no but if they did all the shows they have been asked to do for free they would have no time to do there own gigs. Also i have a good friend that is a dance teacher and she always gets people ringing up and asking for free dancers.
I think the reason that event organisers always try and skimp on how much they pay performers is because a performance is not an physical object it is there for the duration of the event then it is gone and "they think" it if you are a developed performer it may seem like doing an event doesn’t cost you any thing because you already have the skills/props/equipment what they for get to realise is how much work goes in to the show that you are giving them.
I think things are never going to be perfect as far as this goes but if every performer educates people trying to book them about why paid performances is worth while then things will get better.
These are the things that i try to teach bookers and companies whey they are looking for acts:
- Most paid performers pay for their own insurance so no liability to the event
- A paid performer is more likely to turn up on time and they are probably going to be more likely to tailor their act/s to suit your even/time line if you need it.
- A paid performer has a vested interest in performing well and working hard for your event.
- A performer who is paid can usually afford to put a lot of time into developing there act and keeping it new and fresh
- A paid performer is more likely to act professionally when they are at and event
EDITED_BY: Blueberry (1211506999)
I {Heart} hand me downs and spinning in the snow.<br /><br />
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
It's great how what used to be called 'doing it for free' is now parceled as an 'opportunity'
That's become standard dialogue for community/charity groups and, of course, there is an element of truth in it.
But, I feel, there's also often an element of b*llshit in it as well.
In a way, I think it would be better if they said 'can you do this free, or for very little, as a genuine act of charity to benefit those less fortunate', rather than making out that it's such a great 'networking opportunity/opportunity to get yourself known' that it's them doing you a favour, rather than the other way round.
Fact is, the more stuff you do for free, the more the myth is perpetuated that circus skills people work for nothing and, you will get offered loads of gigs, but probably not ones that pay.
People who organise charity events and hobbyist jugglers can, and usually do, fail to see what the problem is.
People who try to make a living from offering their hard-won skills, running their own business along with all the prep time and expenses it entails (which, again, those with proper jobs- regular guaranteed work, holiday pay, sick pay etc, etc seem unable to grasp), who are undercut by those doing it as a hobby, undervalued by potential employers, generally have a much better grasp of what the problem is.
Often those same charity gigs that are touting around for free circus skills people, will be paying the going rate for the likes of a bouncy castle.
That's cos people making a living from bouncy castle hire don't work for free and, it's generally understood by everyone, that they don't work for free.
The public have a bad attitude to circus skills, full stop- they see a juggler and what they really see is a clown, a loser who can't get a 'proper' job.
But, part of the reason that's the case, is down to circus people themselves- they routinely undervalue circus skills as much as the public do.
Also, as is evident in this thread, the attitude of 'there's nothing anyone can do to change it'.
That's rubbish, of course there are things to do that can improve the attitude of the public towards circus skills-
1. if someone rings up asking for free circus skills, let them know the reality of the situation- ask them if what their job is and if they'd be willing to do it for free.
And make clear that you're not just asking if they'd contribute a couple of hours here and there for free, ask if they'd like 30% of their work to be unpaid, cos that's the situation circus skills people are in.
If they're an accountant, ask them to reflect on how they'd feel if there were so many 'hobbyist accountants' willing to work for free, that their boss cut their wages or sacked them and took advantage of the freebies.
2. self-employment itself is a whole issue- those with jobs see a rate of £50 for one hour and you can almost see the cogs ticking over in their minds '£50x40=....£2000/week!!!!!!!' they don't realise that the self-employed circus skills person may only be working that one hour that week, they don't appreciate that the self-employed has no guaranteed regualr income, no holiday/sick pay etc.
3. Address newcomers to the circus skills community to the issue- to some extent, stigmatise working for free by highlighting the problems that result from it: after all, if those newbies doing stuff for free have a genuine future in the business, by perpetuating the perception that we work for free, they will themselves reap the consequences when they are trying to run a proper business based on it.
When newbies come to the HOP community looking for fire-breathing advice, they get it, but they also get a good dose of education about the cons of breathing.
That did not used to be the case, now it is, cos a few individuals didn't say 'there's nothing that can be done about it' they did what was necessary to bring about change.
So, as jugglers/spinners, as well as teaching newbies how to do a 3-beat, how to start with fire etc, we can also make a point of, where appropriate, educating them to the sad reality of the publics perceptions of circus skills and how a lot of that is due to the actions of those aspiring circus skills people, who, for whatever reason, do it for free.
If they want to go ahead and do it for free anyway, then so be it, that's their choice, but, at least they'll know that, in doing so, someone somewhere is losing business that they could really do with.
4. Educate those who organise events- they probably are unable to distinguish between an experienced performer/tutor, able to teach/perform in a professional manner and, someone who's been doing poi for six weeks with no real experience of teaching/performing.
Make clear to them that the professional asking for the going rate for the job, as well as being much better at that job, will also have things like insurance, so,if something goes wrong, the event organisers won't get sued into extinction.
5. There's also pressure from the circus skills community itself, to conform to many of the stereotypes that lead to the dire impression the public have of us.
Such as the view that, if you're doing anything circus skillsy, you have to have some kind of 'clowny' outfit.
The brightly coloured patchy waistcoat or oxfam suit kind of thing.
If that's what you wear, then fine, but there's an underlying attitude that, if you're teaching circus skills, you have to 'look the part'- my feelings are, that if everyone is going to deliberately have that look when they're doing circus skills, then no wonder the public associate circus skills with clownery.
I occasionally teach circus skills at a local sports camp, i wear tracky bottoms and a t-shirt- it works well, the kids see diabolo/poi/juggling as what it is- a skill that I'm going to teach them.
Something just like the other stuff they learn at the camp (football, basketball etc)- a skill that can be used in a performance context, but that's just one aspect of it and, not the most important one.
I know for a fact that some of the established circus skills professionals turn their nose up at that kind of attitude.
I think, for some, there's a feeling of it being a vested interest in the public having that attitude that this stuff is all about them sitting down and being 'entertained' by a bunch of people wearing clowny outfits.
But, what we call 'circus skills' now has many offshoots that do not fall into that old stereotype- the new unicycle trialsy/muni stuff, the new and highly popular developments in diabology- the stuff that's far more about engaging the public in learning the skills themselves, rather than them being only about passive entertainment.
Maybe that's rambling off-topic to some extent, but, I feel that when it comes to the publics total misunderstandings of these skills, and the value of these skills, that, to an extent, the 'circus skills' community has been it's own worst enemy.
Written by :
Yes, sometimes performers do call and offer their services for free. But many times they do not know what opportunities are out there, unless someone calls them, asks, and puts out the word about what is needed.
It's great how what used to be called 'doing it for free' is now parceled as an 'opportunity'
That's become standard dialogue for community/charity groups and, of course, there is an element of truth in it.
But, I feel, there's also often an element of b*llshit in it as well.
In a way, I think it would be better if they said 'can you do this free, or for very little, as a genuine act of charity to benefit those less fortunate', rather than making out that it's such a great 'networking opportunity/opportunity to get yourself known' that it's them doing you a favour, rather than the other way round.
Fact is, the more stuff you do for free, the more the myth is perpetuated that circus skills people work for nothing and, you will get offered loads of gigs, but probably not ones that pay.
People who organise charity events and hobbyist jugglers can, and usually do, fail to see what the problem is.
People who try to make a living from offering their hard-won skills, running their own business along with all the prep time and expenses it entails (which, again, those with proper jobs- regular guaranteed work, holiday pay, sick pay etc, etc seem unable to grasp), who are undercut by those doing it as a hobby, undervalued by potential employers, generally have a much better grasp of what the problem is.
Often those same charity gigs that are touting around for free circus skills people, will be paying the going rate for the likes of a bouncy castle.
That's cos people making a living from bouncy castle hire don't work for free and, it's generally understood by everyone, that they don't work for free.
The public have a bad attitude to circus skills, full stop- they see a juggler and what they really see is a clown, a loser who can't get a 'proper' job.
But, part of the reason that's the case, is down to circus people themselves- they routinely undervalue circus skills as much as the public do.
Also, as is evident in this thread, the attitude of 'there's nothing anyone can do to change it'.
That's rubbish, of course there are things to do that can improve the attitude of the public towards circus skills-
1. if someone rings up asking for free circus skills, let them know the reality of the situation- ask them if what their job is and if they'd be willing to do it for free.
And make clear that you're not just asking if they'd contribute a couple of hours here and there for free, ask if they'd like 30% of their work to be unpaid, cos that's the situation circus skills people are in.
If they're an accountant, ask them to reflect on how they'd feel if there were so many 'hobbyist accountants' willing to work for free, that their boss cut their wages or sacked them and took advantage of the freebies.
2. self-employment itself is a whole issue- those with jobs see a rate of £50 for one hour and you can almost see the cogs ticking over in their minds '£50x40=....£2000/week!!!!!!!' they don't realise that the self-employed circus skills person may only be working that one hour that week, they don't appreciate that the self-employed has no guaranteed regualr income, no holiday/sick pay etc.
3. Address newcomers to the circus skills community to the issue- to some extent, stigmatise working for free by highlighting the problems that result from it: after all, if those newbies doing stuff for free have a genuine future in the business, by perpetuating the perception that we work for free, they will themselves reap the consequences when they are trying to run a proper business based on it.
When newbies come to the HOP community looking for fire-breathing advice, they get it, but they also get a good dose of education about the cons of breathing.
That did not used to be the case, now it is, cos a few individuals didn't say 'there's nothing that can be done about it' they did what was necessary to bring about change.
So, as jugglers/spinners, as well as teaching newbies how to do a 3-beat, how to start with fire etc, we can also make a point of, where appropriate, educating them to the sad reality of the publics perceptions of circus skills and how a lot of that is due to the actions of those aspiring circus skills people, who, for whatever reason, do it for free.
If they want to go ahead and do it for free anyway, then so be it, that's their choice, but, at least they'll know that, in doing so, someone somewhere is losing business that they could really do with.
4. Educate those who organise events- they probably are unable to distinguish between an experienced performer/tutor, able to teach/perform in a professional manner and, someone who's been doing poi for six weeks with no real experience of teaching/performing.
Make clear to them that the professional asking for the going rate for the job, as well as being much better at that job, will also have things like insurance, so,if something goes wrong, the event organisers won't get sued into extinction.
5. There's also pressure from the circus skills community itself, to conform to many of the stereotypes that lead to the dire impression the public have of us.
Such as the view that, if you're doing anything circus skillsy, you have to have some kind of 'clowny' outfit.
The brightly coloured patchy waistcoat or oxfam suit kind of thing.
If that's what you wear, then fine, but there's an underlying attitude that, if you're teaching circus skills, you have to 'look the part'- my feelings are, that if everyone is going to deliberately have that look when they're doing circus skills, then no wonder the public associate circus skills with clownery.
I occasionally teach circus skills at a local sports camp, i wear tracky bottoms and a t-shirt- it works well, the kids see diabolo/poi/juggling as what it is- a skill that I'm going to teach them.
Something just like the other stuff they learn at the camp (football, basketball etc)- a skill that can be used in a performance context, but that's just one aspect of it and, not the most important one.
I know for a fact that some of the established circus skills professionals turn their nose up at that kind of attitude.
I think, for some, there's a feeling of it being a vested interest in the public having that attitude that this stuff is all about them sitting down and being 'entertained' by a bunch of people wearing clowny outfits.
But, what we call 'circus skills' now has many offshoots that do not fall into that old stereotype- the new unicycle trialsy/muni stuff, the new and highly popular developments in diabology- the stuff that's far more about engaging the public in learning the skills themselves, rather than them being only about passive entertainment.
Maybe that's rambling off-topic to some extent, but, I feel that when it comes to the publics total misunderstandings of these skills, and the value of these skills, that, to an extent, the 'circus skills' community has been it's own worst enemy.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
I agree.
I've felt that way for some time, but have been unable to think of a suitable name for the skills we do.
Has anybody got any suggestions for alternatives to the phrase 'circus skills'?
Written by :Eera
My first impression on hearing "circus school" is of a whole bunch of clown riding around a classroom on their little bikes, and having been on this board for longer than I care to remember I reallt should know better, so what are the general public going to think.
I think the problem is the word "circus"; it conjurs up a load of images that are at odds with what you fellas are trying to achieve
I agree.
I've felt that way for some time, but have been unable to think of a suitable name for the skills we do.
Has anybody got any suggestions for alternatives to the phrase 'circus skills'?
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
Spot on!
Written by :Rozi
I think the best approach is to begin by really and truly knowing what you are worth. When you get a request, give them a quote of how much it would cost in normal circumstances based on your current fee structure. Explain that you may choose to waive some or all of that fee, dependent on the opportunity. Ask them to quantify exactly what publicity/exposure/experience you will be getting from it (eg. a logo on the program, or a chance to meet the crown heads of europe).
You can then decide whether you want to waive all, some or none of the fee.
This has the advantage of raising people's awareness of the normal business costs, whilst leaving the door open to working for some truly worthy causes.
Spot on!
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
I am still thinking that there are too many assumptions being made about whether or not people appropriately value the circus/performers. ... What is it exactly that makes you feel under valued? Just because someone asks you to perform for free?
I mean, I get asked to donate my jewellery, and do so often. Does that lessen it's value? No. In fact, it raises it, and has resulted in many valued sales and exposure to new clientele.
I often was paid, quite well, for fire spinning while in Thailand. I chose to do one event for free, for a coral restoration project. It was at a fancy resort. As a result of that, I had the resort owner offer her ventire venue, for free, and all her media connections, for a fund raising show my volunteer circus was doing at the time. On the basis of that performance I also got hired by an agent, and that resulted in well paid gigs for myself and four other performers at New Years.
That is what I meant by opportunity, OWD...
I think this is just not an issue isolated to the feild of performance. Whether the skill or object we have to offer is valued with money or in other ways is a decision we make each time we choose to offer it up.Or not.
I had no trouble convincing the people hiring me in Thailand that it was worth their money- despite the fact there are free fire spinners on every beach, every single night, all over the country. They could see the difference , and were willing to pay when appropriate, to get what they wanted in a professional performance.
Maybe it varies in other places for a variety of reasons?
I am still thinking that there are too many assumptions being made about whether or not people appropriately value the circus/performers. ... What is it exactly that makes you feel under valued? Just because someone asks you to perform for free?
I mean, I get asked to donate my jewellery, and do so often. Does that lessen it's value? No. In fact, it raises it, and has resulted in many valued sales and exposure to new clientele.
I often was paid, quite well, for fire spinning while in Thailand. I chose to do one event for free, for a coral restoration project. It was at a fancy resort. As a result of that, I had the resort owner offer her ventire venue, for free, and all her media connections, for a fund raising show my volunteer circus was doing at the time. On the basis of that performance I also got hired by an agent, and that resulted in well paid gigs for myself and four other performers at New Years.
That is what I meant by opportunity, OWD...
I think this is just not an issue isolated to the feild of performance. Whether the skill or object we have to offer is valued with money or in other ways is a decision we make each time we choose to offer it up.Or not.
I had no trouble convincing the people hiring me in Thailand that it was worth their money- despite the fact there are free fire spinners on every beach, every single night, all over the country. They could see the difference , and were willing to pay when appropriate, to get what they wanted in a professional performance.
Maybe it varies in other places for a variety of reasons?
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
BRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted:
potentially unpopular opinion follows...
the really hard problem to solve in my opinion, is that there are a lot (I'd say the majority) of people out there that call themselves pros, set themselves up with an ok-ish web site, and then expect to be paid like pros (ie a living wage). AFAIK, if you want a living wage you have to contribute something *worth* being paid for. mucking about for a few hours a day for 6 months with some poi and juggling balls does not qualify you as a professional IMHO.
there are so few real pro fire performers out there that I think its quite hard to even educate newbies...unless you yourself are one. I guess in circus, if you are performing at a level that indicates at least 3 hard years of training and several years of hobby training before that, then perhaps you should be able to justify a living wage, but otherwise...why should a client pay you as much as you might ask?
potentially unpopular opinion follows...
the really hard problem to solve in my opinion, is that there are a lot (I'd say the majority) of people out there that call themselves pros, set themselves up with an ok-ish web site, and then expect to be paid like pros (ie a living wage). AFAIK, if you want a living wage you have to contribute something *worth* being paid for. mucking about for a few hours a day for 6 months with some poi and juggling balls does not qualify you as a professional IMHO.
there are so few real pro fire performers out there that I think its quite hard to even educate newbies...unless you yourself are one. I guess in circus, if you are performing at a level that indicates at least 3 hard years of training and several years of hobby training before that, then perhaps you should be able to justify a living wage, but otherwise...why should a client pay you as much as you might ask?
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