Forums > Social Discussion > Why Are We So Scared of Math?
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veteran
1,389 posts
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada
veteran
1,389 posts
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada
Posted:
This is a question I've just spend some time debating with my dad about... and neither of us came to any kind of conclusion.
WARNING: Huge rant ahead! [
]
I am currently a grade 12 student (finally!) in my last semester of high school.I'm taking Calculus this semester(after completing pre-calculus last semester, scraping by with a 66%), and I'm already failing. So, naturally, I'm freaking out, because I don't normally fail things and I need this course to go on into university to do the progams I want to do.
Just to give some background information on math in my (Nova Scotia's) school system: there's basic generalized math up to grade 9, then in highschool at grade 10, there are four different kinds of math: advanced, academic, foundations, and essentials (from hardest to easiest respectively). In order to get into calculus, the highest level of math in the system, it is highly suggested (and debated) that one must go through the advanced levels of math in order to get there. (An entire explination can be found in this course guide (.pdf))
This probably isn't too shocking at all... But last semester my pre-cal class had 8 people drop out, as we as many others in the two other classes. We thought this was mainly due to the teacher's teaching style, among other things that us kids can point our fingers at other than ourselves. Teachers at this level are often criticized by the students (and parents) for bad teaching, when really, it's not their fault. They have to teach kids with bad math foundations a 10-month course in 5 months. I have a physics teacher who openly bashes the math system, saying that the kids he teaches don't do badly because of physics, but because when numbers are involved, they get things messed up. He says we are mathematically stupid, because the system has let us down.
It's not just him that says this either; I found an article on employers in Nova Scotia, with companies saying things such as:
Last night while visiting some old friends, a sibling of my friend, currently in grade 9, came in flustered because all but 5 kids in her math class are failing. When I asked what they were doing, the reply was "simple algebra". (Jr. high here is grades 6 through 9) When I think back to math in Jr. high, I honestly can't remember what we did at all. The only clear memory I have, is that we practiced mental math (adding and subtracting) and were timed doing so. Go ahead a couple years, see me in Math 12 advanced, struggling along with many others on such basic skills as fractions, much to the teachers amazement.
The teachers stuggle, because we struggle. They can't teach us what we need to know, when they're teaching us the skills we should already have. From there, they tell us that it's only going to be harder, only going to be more work, only going to take more time and effort. By the end of the day, we're terrified.
Not to mention the constant shadow of doom should we get bad marks or fail.
So, going back to the conversation I mentioned earlier, the one with my dad. We were trying to figure out where things go wrong. Not all teachers can be that bad. Not all kids are completely incompetent with math. What's that leave us? The lovely system, which is so gosh-darn easy to hate!
That's right, we can only seem to blame the system. At this stage, most of us (teachers included) blame the fact that Jr. High is a waste of time. When we get to highschool, everything is so intimidating (as it should be because we don't have the skills we need), that so many take the easy way out. Why are there TWO levels below academic (considered "average" level math)? Not only are they not trying to get kids to work at it and figure it out, they're giving them the options to go the easy way out. This angers me. They're letting the kids down, and then we get reactions like the one above from employers.
It's sad. It's devistating. And it needs to change. How? Change the curriculum in Jr. high? Get kids doing math before they know what it means? I don't know for sure, all I know is that if nothing changes, I'm putting the time in, and getting my kids into private school (when I have kids, in 15 years!!). But that leads to the whole "pushing kids too hard to get them to succeed" topic. And that's a whole other rant on it's own...
[/]
This is a question I've just spend some time debating with my dad about... and neither of us came to any kind of conclusion.
WARNING: Huge rant ahead! [
]I am currently a grade 12 student (finally!) in my last semester of high school.I'm taking Calculus this semester(after completing pre-calculus last semester, scraping by with a 66%), and I'm already failing. So, naturally, I'm freaking out, because I don't normally fail things and I need this course to go on into university to do the progams I want to do.
Just to give some background information on math in my (Nova Scotia's) school system: there's basic generalized math up to grade 9, then in highschool at grade 10, there are four different kinds of math: advanced, academic, foundations, and essentials (from hardest to easiest respectively). In order to get into calculus, the highest level of math in the system, it is highly suggested (and debated) that one must go through the advanced levels of math in order to get there. (An entire explination can be found in this course guide (.pdf))
This probably isn't too shocking at all... But last semester my pre-cal class had 8 people drop out, as we as many others in the two other classes. We thought this was mainly due to the teacher's teaching style, among other things that us kids can point our fingers at other than ourselves. Teachers at this level are often criticized by the students (and parents) for bad teaching, when really, it's not their fault. They have to teach kids with bad math foundations a 10-month course in 5 months. I have a physics teacher who openly bashes the math system, saying that the kids he teaches don't do badly because of physics, but because when numbers are involved, they get things messed up. He says we are mathematically stupid, because the system has let us down.
It's not just him that says this either; I found an article on employers in Nova Scotia, with companies saying things such as:
Written by: 'Shocking' number of job-seekers lack basic math skills - cbc.ca(Read article here.)
The company guarantees jobs for graduates. But before they can get in, they have to pass Grade 12 and write a basic math test at a Grade 9 level.
"About 55 per cent failed the math," MacDonald told the members of the Nova Scotia School Boards Association.
"Because of that, we had to lower our standards, and because of that we had to do a two-week introduction to math course."
Last night while visiting some old friends, a sibling of my friend, currently in grade 9, came in flustered because all but 5 kids in her math class are failing. When I asked what they were doing, the reply was "simple algebra". (Jr. high here is grades 6 through 9) When I think back to math in Jr. high, I honestly can't remember what we did at all. The only clear memory I have, is that we practiced mental math (adding and subtracting) and were timed doing so. Go ahead a couple years, see me in Math 12 advanced, struggling along with many others on such basic skills as fractions, much to the teachers amazement.
The teachers stuggle, because we struggle. They can't teach us what we need to know, when they're teaching us the skills we should already have. From there, they tell us that it's only going to be harder, only going to be more work, only going to take more time and effort. By the end of the day, we're terrified.
Not to mention the constant shadow of doom should we get bad marks or fail.
So, going back to the conversation I mentioned earlier, the one with my dad. We were trying to figure out where things go wrong. Not all teachers can be that bad. Not all kids are completely incompetent with math. What's that leave us? The lovely system, which is so gosh-darn easy to hate!
That's right, we can only seem to blame the system. At this stage, most of us (teachers included) blame the fact that Jr. High is a waste of time. When we get to highschool, everything is so intimidating (as it should be because we don't have the skills we need), that so many take the easy way out. Why are there TWO levels below academic (considered "average" level math)? Not only are they not trying to get kids to work at it and figure it out, they're giving them the options to go the easy way out. This angers me. They're letting the kids down, and then we get reactions like the one above from employers.
It's sad. It's devistating. And it needs to change. How? Change the curriculum in Jr. high? Get kids doing math before they know what it means? I don't know for sure, all I know is that if nothing changes, I'm putting the time in, and getting my kids into private school (when I have kids, in 15 years!!). But that leads to the whole "pushing kids too hard to get them to succeed" topic. And that's a whole other rant on it's own...
[/
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NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Hee hee... Here's a good test for me.
I've got a Master's Degree in Math Education and have taught public school for the past 12 years.
Do I either:
1) Spend the next 3 hours actually telling you what I think.
2) Clean my flat.
I've already got one cognitive thread conversation going.
*Looks at my livingroom.*
You're on your own.
Long story short: Calculus is stupid. Nobody uses it. More time should be spent on practical math like Statistics, Algebra... hell FRACTIONS and PERCENTS. If you build a strong enough foundation you can pick up Calc in College. No reason we should be pushing our 18 year olds to all learn calculus when most of them can't divide.
*Off to clean*
Hee hee... Here's a good test for me.
I've got a Master's Degree in Math Education and have taught public school for the past 12 years.
Do I either:
1) Spend the next 3 hours actually telling you what I think.
2) Clean my flat.
I've already got one cognitive thread conversation going.
*Looks at my livingroom.*
You're on your own.
Long story short: Calculus is stupid. Nobody uses it. More time should be spent on practical math like Statistics, Algebra... hell FRACTIONS and PERCENTS. If you build a strong enough foundation you can pick up Calc in College. No reason we should be pushing our 18 year olds to all learn calculus when most of them can't divide.
*Off to clean*
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Posted:
Ok, I'm probably in the minority on this one as I've got a bachelor's in Math and a PhD in stats, but I absolutely loved math. Why? That was due in large part to my teachers from 7th grade on up. I loved each and every one of them. So, I'm all for saying that a teacher can have a lot of influence on a student. Keep in mind that I'm also a girl (supposed to hate math & science from the get-go), so I guess there's extra support for the teacher theory.
To me, it sounds like your cirriculum is decent. I started learning algebra in 7th grade, and had calculus in 12th, so that's right in line with what you've mentioned. I had geometry, algebra 2, and pre-calc in between (algebra was 2 years, I believe).
So, I'd say hang in there. And like NYC says, you really only need calc if you intend to pursue a career in Engineering or Physics (and possibly some forms of chemistry).
Ok, I'm probably in the minority on this one as I've got a bachelor's in Math and a PhD in stats, but I absolutely loved math. Why? That was due in large part to my teachers from 7th grade on up. I loved each and every one of them. So, I'm all for saying that a teacher can have a lot of influence on a student. Keep in mind that I'm also a girl (supposed to hate math & science from the get-go), so I guess there's extra support for the teacher theory.
To me, it sounds like your cirriculum is decent. I started learning algebra in 7th grade, and had calculus in 12th, so that's right in line with what you've mentioned. I had geometry, algebra 2, and pre-calc in between (algebra was 2 years, I believe).
So, I'd say hang in there. And like NYC says, you really only need calc if you intend to pursue a career in Engineering or Physics (and possibly some forms of chemistry).
SILVER Member
veteran
1,389 posts
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada
veteran
1,389 posts
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada
Posted:
Hehe, I must admit, this isn't really what I was going for - I suppose my anger about my current position took place of what I was really asking...
Going on what NYC mentioned though, about how calculus is stupid, and that we never use it... this is something that always comes up in class. Most every math class will have the kid in it who really doens't seem to care and is the one always saying "Sir, are we ever going to use this in *real* life?"
The reaction when the teacher says "I don't know" is anything but enthusiastic.
I don't have much time at the moment, but I think of this, and I find it curious: there are 65 students taking calculus out of a possible 550 students graduating.
Something else I thought about, is my placement in school. The people I hang out with and go to class with are the ones that are going away to university, and going to (probably) end up in prefessional careers - doctors, lawyers, etc. But what about everyone else? There's a lot of promotion here for those who are less academics to go into community college to go into trades businesses.
Ulitimately, I forgot to realize that my perspective on this topic is completely biased.
thanks for the support, despite the fact that I didn't want this thread to really turn into a "woe is me, I'm failing" thread. I wanted to explore why kids don't want to try it at all when they get to highschool.
Hehe, I must admit, this isn't really what I was going for - I suppose my anger about my current position took place of what I was really asking...
Going on what NYC mentioned though, about how calculus is stupid, and that we never use it... this is something that always comes up in class. Most every math class will have the kid in it who really doens't seem to care and is the one always saying "Sir, are we ever going to use this in *real* life?"
The reaction when the teacher says "I don't know" is anything but enthusiastic.
I don't have much time at the moment, but I think of this, and I find it curious: there are 65 students taking calculus out of a possible 550 students graduating.
Something else I thought about, is my placement in school. The people I hang out with and go to class with are the ones that are going away to university, and going to (probably) end up in prefessional careers - doctors, lawyers, etc. But what about everyone else? There's a lot of promotion here for those who are less academics to go into community college to go into trades businesses.
Ulitimately, I forgot to realize that my perspective on this topic is completely biased.
thanks for the support, despite the fact that I didn't want this thread to really turn into a "woe is me, I'm failing" thread. I wanted to explore why kids don't want to try it at all when they get to highschool.
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SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
4,172 posts
Location: Hastings, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
4,172 posts
Location: Hastings, United Kingdom
Posted:
*le sigh*
I tried...I failed...
I'll come back later when I can type something more than just a rant about the UK schooling system...
*le sigh*
I tried...I failed...
I'll come back later when I can type something more than just a rant about the UK schooling system...
SILVER Member
veteran
1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
veteran
1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
Posted:
In the UK we don't do calculus until sixth form (optional year 12+13 for those who want to go to university).
In maths at this level we do pure, which includes calculus, with an option of either statistics or mechanics. The mechanics makes some use of calculus. I don't know about the statistics because I wasn't in that class.
A lot of us were also doing physics, and a complaint a lot of the students in my class made was 'When are we going to be doing calculus, we need it for physics'. They finally got round to teaching calculus at the end of the first year, by which time a couple of students (myself included) had dropped physics because it wasn't possible without the calculus. Several went and got private tuition, others lost out on a large part of the physics curriculum.
My only complaint about high school maths is that matrices aren't included, and 3D computer graphics programming is impossible without them. Then again, when I did computer studies it was all about computers for business and there was no programming either (Teachers: 'Why do you want to do this, there's no future in programming computer games', Me, today: '****ing stupid teachers, the computer games industry is bigger than the movie industry').
Yup, I do geometry in 3 dimensions for fun.
In the UK we don't do calculus until sixth form (optional year 12+13 for those who want to go to university).
In maths at this level we do pure, which includes calculus, with an option of either statistics or mechanics. The mechanics makes some use of calculus. I don't know about the statistics because I wasn't in that class.
A lot of us were also doing physics, and a complaint a lot of the students in my class made was 'When are we going to be doing calculus, we need it for physics'. They finally got round to teaching calculus at the end of the first year, by which time a couple of students (myself included) had dropped physics because it wasn't possible without the calculus. Several went and got private tuition, others lost out on a large part of the physics curriculum.
My only complaint about high school maths is that matrices aren't included, and 3D computer graphics programming is impossible without them. Then again, when I did computer studies it was all about computers for business and there was no programming either (Teachers: 'Why do you want to do this, there's no future in programming computer games', Me, today: '****ing stupid teachers, the computer games industry is bigger than the movie industry').
Yup, I do geometry in 3 dimensions for fun.
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BRONZE Member
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
Posted:
As an engineer I can honestly say I've never used calculus for anything.
As long as you've got an appreciation of the basics like algebra and rearranging formulae, and can think from first principals, you can flourish in industry.
As to why we're scared of maths? Having taught in university I think a lot of it is simply down to laziness. Very few people want to do engineering, physics, science in general because it's too much like hard work, hence the current crisis in industry.
There's also a factor of some people are naturally good at music, others at art, others at maths, those ones may appreciate it, the others may not, but everyone can get to a reasonable ability at whatever they chose, if they're motivated enough, and it may be that motivation that's lacking.
As an engineer I can honestly say I've never used calculus for anything.
As long as you've got an appreciation of the basics like algebra and rearranging formulae, and can think from first principals, you can flourish in industry.
As to why we're scared of maths? Having taught in university I think a lot of it is simply down to laziness. Very few people want to do engineering, physics, science in general because it's too much like hard work, hence the current crisis in industry.
There's also a factor of some people are naturally good at music, others at art, others at maths, those ones may appreciate it, the others may not, but everyone can get to a reasonable ability at whatever they chose, if they're motivated enough, and it may be that motivation that's lacking.
There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.
SILVER Member
veteran
1,389 posts
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada
veteran
1,389 posts
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada
Posted:
Alot of what you've pointed out about the UK school system highlights what I mentioned in my last post, Polarity. For us, there's only one part of the public schooling system, and people on every leve is crammed into one building. The connection between math and physics, as I initially wrote, is something that we are faced with. In fact, to go into advanced physics, which I took for some reason that I fail to remember (read: why the hell did I go into advanced physics?!) we have to have passed pre-calculus in order to take the course.
I had a lovely conversation with one of the guidance councillors at my school today - she was previously a student teacher, and we both remembered one another, so I said I'd book a time to come in and have a chat, which was lovely. I brought up this topic, as it's been on my mind a lot. She raised a lot of good points. First off, I stated earlier that there are two levels of math offered below that of the average level. However, since then, the system has changed. I won't go into details because it's generally confusing unless you know the scheduling and whatnot, but essentially, math foundations is actually considered to be "average" math.
The way the councillor put it was, for someone walking into highschool, they don't have the option to choose exactly what kind of math they want to take for the rest of their highschool career. Everyone is smushed in again into one room, and by the end of the year, they know which way they're headed after school. Math foundations is exactly the kind of math that people going into arts programs need. She also put it in terms of averages - why struggle and do harder math for an outcome you don't need to plan for? She said herself that if she had taken lower level maths once she knew she was going into arts, her average would have been much higher and she would have gotten scholarships. I needed to realize that the school has to cater to a much wider spectrum of students then the ones that I see.
This makes sense to me. But I still wonder, why do employers still have such problems with math skills? I hear the results of the provincial math exams (ooh yeah, standardized testing, a whole other can of worms) are averaging around 45%, which for those of you unframiliar with the system, is failing by 5%.
Oh, and we do matrices :P I don't really understand them or the concept of them, but it's nice to know they're actually used for something!
Alot of what you've pointed out about the UK school system highlights what I mentioned in my last post, Polarity. For us, there's only one part of the public schooling system, and people on every leve is crammed into one building. The connection between math and physics, as I initially wrote, is something that we are faced with. In fact, to go into advanced physics, which I took for some reason that I fail to remember (read: why the hell did I go into advanced physics?!) we have to have passed pre-calculus in order to take the course.
I had a lovely conversation with one of the guidance councillors at my school today - she was previously a student teacher, and we both remembered one another, so I said I'd book a time to come in and have a chat, which was lovely. I brought up this topic, as it's been on my mind a lot. She raised a lot of good points. First off, I stated earlier that there are two levels of math offered below that of the average level. However, since then, the system has changed. I won't go into details because it's generally confusing unless you know the scheduling and whatnot, but essentially, math foundations is actually considered to be "average" math.
The way the councillor put it was, for someone walking into highschool, they don't have the option to choose exactly what kind of math they want to take for the rest of their highschool career. Everyone is smushed in again into one room, and by the end of the year, they know which way they're headed after school. Math foundations is exactly the kind of math that people going into arts programs need. She also put it in terms of averages - why struggle and do harder math for an outcome you don't need to plan for? She said herself that if she had taken lower level maths once she knew she was going into arts, her average would have been much higher and she would have gotten scholarships. I needed to realize that the school has to cater to a much wider spectrum of students then the ones that I see.
This makes sense to me. But I still wonder, why do employers still have such problems with math skills? I hear the results of the provincial math exams (ooh yeah, standardized testing, a whole other can of worms) are averaging around 45%, which for those of you unframiliar with the system, is failing by 5%.
Oh, and we do matrices :P I don't really understand them or the concept of them, but it's nice to know they're actually used for something!
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BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
I wonder if the reason why maths is so scary is in that it's also intimidating.
we live in a society where excellence in mathematics and science is seen as "real" intelligence and therefore we have an underlying expectation that we have to be good at them in order to suceed in life (regardless of the actuality of this feeling). And as people have mentioned, there are people who are naturally good at certain things, but not others. So if you take all those kids who aren't naturally good at maths, then that's a pretty scary thought to feel like you have to be good at a subject you do so horribly in.
In my state (Victoria, not drunk), at school we have different levels of maths that we can chose, however I don't doubt that in many cases the curriculum is letting students down in many cases/countries. It definitely is in the second language department in australia.
I wonder if the reason why maths is so scary is in that it's also intimidating.
we live in a society where excellence in mathematics and science is seen as "real" intelligence and therefore we have an underlying expectation that we have to be good at them in order to suceed in life (regardless of the actuality of this feeling). And as people have mentioned, there are people who are naturally good at certain things, but not others. So if you take all those kids who aren't naturally good at maths, then that's a pretty scary thought to feel like you have to be good at a subject you do so horribly in.
In my state (Victoria, not drunk), at school we have different levels of maths that we can chose, however I don't doubt that in many cases the curriculum is letting students down in many cases/countries. It definitely is in the second language department in australia.
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NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
I do believe in teaching some subjects for the sake of teaching people how to learn. I don't think direct practicality should be the ONLY factor in teaching something.
Most of the science you learned in school you never used directly but I think it did teach you quite a bit about systems and how the world works.
I think it all comes down to understanding fundamentals. I have plenty of really smart, savvy kids that can't multiply or divide without a calculator. And when they do use a calculator they view it as some magical random number generator. I can't tell you how many times kids will say something like "Sir, I think my calculator's broken... I put 2 divided by 300 and I got some really small number."
My kids also think I'm a witch because I can do stuff like multiplying by 0.2 without using a calculator.
That's just basic number sense. I'm also apparently uncanny at my tens times tables.
Written by: OrangeBobo
Most every math class will have the kid in it who really doens't seem to care and is the one always saying "Sir, are we ever going to use this in *real* life?"
The reaction when the teacher says "I don't know" is anything but enthusiastic.
I do believe in teaching some subjects for the sake of teaching people how to learn. I don't think direct practicality should be the ONLY factor in teaching something.
Most of the science you learned in school you never used directly but I think it did teach you quite a bit about systems and how the world works.
I think it all comes down to understanding fundamentals. I have plenty of really smart, savvy kids that can't multiply or divide without a calculator. And when they do use a calculator they view it as some magical random number generator. I can't tell you how many times kids will say something like "Sir, I think my calculator's broken... I put 2 divided by 300 and I got some really small number."
My kids also think I'm a witch because I can do stuff like multiplying by 0.2 without using a calculator.
That's just basic number sense. I'm also apparently uncanny at my tens times tables.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
SILVER Member
veteran
1,389 posts
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada
veteran
1,389 posts
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada
Posted:
Yeah, I definately have my TI-83 glued to the side of my head... Which seems pointless, because we're not allowed graphing calcs during tests and whatnot... too easy to find/check answers, haha. Not to mention they're programmable!
And years later, we still get the basic "how many mLs in a L?" or my favourite "how many seconds in a day?" etc.
Definately scared of your multiplying skills still...
Yeah, I definately have my TI-83 glued to the side of my head... Which seems pointless, because we're not allowed graphing calcs during tests and whatnot... too easy to find/check answers, haha. Not to mention they're programmable!
And years later, we still get the basic "how many mLs in a L?" or my favourite "how many seconds in a day?" etc.
Definately scared of your multiplying skills still...
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SILVER Member
veteran
1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
veteran
1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
Posted:
I think the problem goes right back to primary school (age 4 to 11 here), where the whole of mathematics is made excessively complicated, and it puts people off by making things look harder than they are.
Rote learning of times tables is a fine example of something that is just pointless, and makes people hate maths.
Multiplying or dividing by 2 or 10 is dead easy, and that's all you need.
3*n = 2(n)+n
4*n = 2(2n)
5*n = (10n)/2
6*n = ((10n)/2)+n
7*n = ((10n)/2)+2n
8*n = 10n-2n
9*n = 10n-n
That's every times table covered and all you need to do is shunt the decimal point up and down, and know how to double or divide by two.
Once you've cracked something in maths it's very easy, but all too often teachers don't have the time to help everyone get to that point, and they get left behind all the way through, thinking it's all difficult.
It doesn't help that some of the methods are pretty abstract, and a lot of things in maths aren't taught in a way where they can be applied to something, and used in a familiar context.
I learned a lot more when I started computer programming, becaue you have to write out the whole method from the very beginning, and you can see what changing things around does without it becoming too confusing. If more kids had access to simple languages like Logo, they'd have a sandbox to play around with mathematics. Programming is all about developing systems. Education is lacking a way to teach people about systems, so they can't use them to understand complex problems by breaking them down.
Instead of having a world where geeks (a group of people known to excel at teaching themselves) are the only ones who can program, maybe everyone should be taught how to program so they can all be smarter.
I think the problem goes right back to primary school (age 4 to 11 here), where the whole of mathematics is made excessively complicated, and it puts people off by making things look harder than they are.
Rote learning of times tables is a fine example of something that is just pointless, and makes people hate maths.
Multiplying or dividing by 2 or 10 is dead easy, and that's all you need.
3*n = 2(n)+n
4*n = 2(2n)
5*n = (10n)/2
6*n = ((10n)/2)+n
7*n = ((10n)/2)+2n
8*n = 10n-2n
9*n = 10n-n
That's every times table covered and all you need to do is shunt the decimal point up and down, and know how to double or divide by two.
Once you've cracked something in maths it's very easy, but all too often teachers don't have the time to help everyone get to that point, and they get left behind all the way through, thinking it's all difficult.
It doesn't help that some of the methods are pretty abstract, and a lot of things in maths aren't taught in a way where they can be applied to something, and used in a familiar context.
I learned a lot more when I started computer programming, becaue you have to write out the whole method from the very beginning, and you can see what changing things around does without it becoming too confusing. If more kids had access to simple languages like Logo, they'd have a sandbox to play around with mathematics. Programming is all about developing systems. Education is lacking a way to teach people about systems, so they can't use them to understand complex problems by breaking them down.
Instead of having a world where geeks (a group of people known to excel at teaching themselves) are the only ones who can program, maybe everyone should be taught how to program so they can all be smarter.
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
I'm gonna disagree on some of that.
I think it's important to know that 3 times 3 is 9 without having to do two step multiplication and addition.
I actually can't imagine much that's more important than memorizing the times tables.
For a basic algebra expression like 3(3+3x) I'd hope my kids could say that it was 9+9x without having to do any computations. You'd have the kids take the 3*2+3 on the outside then 3*2x+3x?! Rather than just memorizing that 3x3=9?
I'd have NO chance of teaching them how to balance equations (my lesson for today) if they don't have their multiplication tables down.
Wait wait wait... back up. You want them to memorize a seemingly arbitrary formula set for 7 different possible situations and then compute whenever they come into contact with those numbers?!
Just do find out that 3 x 4 = 12?
It's been proven that the human brain can only do one actively conscious computation at a time. If they needed to consciously compute 3 x 4 was they would be biologically unable to be conscious of what ever application of that they were using it for (like how many hydrogen atoms are in 4 units of phosphoric acid.)
12.
There are 12.
AND....
Do you really think that a child that's unable to memorize his multiplication tables is going to have the math sense to understand "n" let alone ((10n)/2)+2n?!
My kids know every word to every eminem song every written. Memorization is easy and enjoyable for them.
I can't imagine anything less excessively complicated or more useful than the multiplication tables.
For the love of God!
I'm gonna disagree on some of that.
I think it's important to know that 3 times 3 is 9 without having to do two step multiplication and addition.
I actually can't imagine much that's more important than memorizing the times tables.
For a basic algebra expression like 3(3+3x) I'd hope my kids could say that it was 9+9x without having to do any computations. You'd have the kids take the 3*2+3 on the outside then 3*2x+3x?! Rather than just memorizing that 3x3=9?
I'd have NO chance of teaching them how to balance equations (my lesson for today) if they don't have their multiplication tables down.
Wait wait wait... back up. You want them to memorize a seemingly arbitrary formula set for 7 different possible situations and then compute whenever they come into contact with those numbers?!
Just do find out that 3 x 4 = 12?
It's been proven that the human brain can only do one actively conscious computation at a time. If they needed to consciously compute 3 x 4 was they would be biologically unable to be conscious of what ever application of that they were using it for (like how many hydrogen atoms are in 4 units of phosphoric acid.)
12.
There are 12.
AND....
Do you really think that a child that's unable to memorize his multiplication tables is going to have the math sense to understand "n" let alone ((10n)/2)+2n?!
My kids know every word to every eminem song every written. Memorization is easy and enjoyable for them.
I can't imagine anything less excessively complicated or more useful than the multiplication tables.
For the love of God!
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Posted:
I use times tables all the time still. Admittedly mostly with the kids work but also checking shopping and keeping tabs on costs. I had to rote learn them and I have one child who seems to just know them without being taught and another who cant remember them from one second to the next. I’m hoping that rote learning tables with the second child will help the third. It seems to be happening already. But the second child finds division easier than multiplication. Doesn’t make sense to me.
My eldest has discovered mathletics online and quite happily plays with that after school. Loves math. Its great!!
I think rote learning math has its place and can be made less arduous with reward and repitition of what they know so they get it right and feel good. It also makes sense to my middle guy that 9 x 4 is the same as 10 x 4 - 4. So he memorises some tables and adds and subtracts for the rest.
We are playing a number of board games that incidentally use allot of simple(ish) math. Munchkin, settlers and monopoly make math happen. Roleplaying games like Stormbringer make percentages make sense and addition is needed while thinking on their feet.
Having done calculus and some other math I’m not sure I can teach it so I do hope they get good math teachers, I had awesome teachers all through high school who were masterful motivators, we got scratch and sniffs for good work.
Sorry Bobo, distracted by other comments. I feel for you though.
Some insane part of our system makes you scale down your total marks if you do music as a year 11 and 12 subject.
I use times tables all the time still. Admittedly mostly with the kids work but also checking shopping and keeping tabs on costs. I had to rote learn them and I have one child who seems to just know them without being taught and another who cant remember them from one second to the next. I’m hoping that rote learning tables with the second child will help the third. It seems to be happening already. But the second child finds division easier than multiplication. Doesn’t make sense to me.
My eldest has discovered mathletics online and quite happily plays with that after school. Loves math. Its great!!
I think rote learning math has its place and can be made less arduous with reward and repitition of what they know so they get it right and feel good. It also makes sense to my middle guy that 9 x 4 is the same as 10 x 4 - 4. So he memorises some tables and adds and subtracts for the rest.
We are playing a number of board games that incidentally use allot of simple(ish) math. Munchkin, settlers and monopoly make math happen. Roleplaying games like Stormbringer make percentages make sense and addition is needed while thinking on their feet.
Having done calculus and some other math I’m not sure I can teach it so I do hope they get good math teachers, I had awesome teachers all through high school who were masterful motivators, we got scratch and sniffs for good work.
Sorry Bobo, distracted by other comments. I feel for you though.
Some insane part of our system makes you scale down your total marks if you do music as a year 11 and 12 subject.
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu
SILVER Member
veteran
1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
veteran
1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
Posted:
Kids can remember the words to every eminem song because they have been learning spoken language and the patterns it makes since they were born.
Maths as I was taught it excluded any kind of patterns, and was dull, uninteresting and a complete chore. Everyone felt this way about maths all the way through high school, except for the few of us who got to see the patterns in it, which never occured as part of our formal education but beside it. Some were lucky enough to be tutored by people who grew to love the patterns in maths and could explain them, others like myself got to see the patterns by throwing numbers at computers. In any case we still hated the way maths was taught in schools.
The method I gave seems more complicated at first, but you can build on it, where you can't for rote learned tables.
The algebra may be beyond most kids (we didn't do any until the 2nd year of high school), but it's just a way of noting it down that you or I can understand for this example. Kids can tell that 7 is 2 more than 5, so known they need a 5 and a 2. It's not written in stone, eg. you can do 6 as 5-1 or 2+3.
The table layout has it's place, but doing it as a chant is stupid. It should be taught as a bunch of patterns, starting with the squares running along the diagonal, and using visualisation to make it easier to remember than by droning on "1 1 is 1, 2 2s are 4, 3 3s are 9,...". From there your square shapes can have more lines added to the sides, so for example 3x4 comes from 9 with another 3 stuck on the side. You get to visualise what numbers look like, and can rearrange them to work with different factors. Doing this you can handle the whole of he table close to the 1x edges, leaving things out beyond 5x5 not doable by this method. Use a bunch of blocks and you can get children memorising what smaller numbers look like before they can even write them down.
Throw in the easy multiplications like x5, x10 and maybe x8, and there is very little left to use the system I mentioned on.
Yest it uses a lot of different methods of doing things, some of which can be applied to the same pai or numbers, but thats the easiest way of remembering things, by relating them to other things. Some of those multiplications stand out like beacons because you can use several different methods to do them, allowing you to derive from that point outwards.
At school we had to learn our tables by rote, then in the next year they started us on bigger multiplications, without any new knowledge on how to do them, If I'd learned from the start how to do it the way I use now, I could have progressed faster from the beginning.
The system works. I can do mental arithmetic faster than most people by using it. Being autistic has nothing to do with it either. If I use the same methods as everyone else I can do things in the same time.
Selecting the best way to perform a function is all part of computer programming. You select algorithms to optimise for speed, memory usage or programmer readability, and more often than not making a program out of simple parts that work together is the best way to fulfil all the criteria, including the one of reusability. Applying what you already have to future problems.
Kids can remember the words to every eminem song because they have been learning spoken language and the patterns it makes since they were born.
Maths as I was taught it excluded any kind of patterns, and was dull, uninteresting and a complete chore. Everyone felt this way about maths all the way through high school, except for the few of us who got to see the patterns in it, which never occured as part of our formal education but beside it. Some were lucky enough to be tutored by people who grew to love the patterns in maths and could explain them, others like myself got to see the patterns by throwing numbers at computers. In any case we still hated the way maths was taught in schools.
The method I gave seems more complicated at first, but you can build on it, where you can't for rote learned tables.
The algebra may be beyond most kids (we didn't do any until the 2nd year of high school), but it's just a way of noting it down that you or I can understand for this example. Kids can tell that 7 is 2 more than 5, so known they need a 5 and a 2. It's not written in stone, eg. you can do 6 as 5-1 or 2+3.
The table layout has it's place, but doing it as a chant is stupid. It should be taught as a bunch of patterns, starting with the squares running along the diagonal, and using visualisation to make it easier to remember than by droning on "1 1 is 1, 2 2s are 4, 3 3s are 9,...". From there your square shapes can have more lines added to the sides, so for example 3x4 comes from 9 with another 3 stuck on the side. You get to visualise what numbers look like, and can rearrange them to work with different factors. Doing this you can handle the whole of he table close to the 1x edges, leaving things out beyond 5x5 not doable by this method. Use a bunch of blocks and you can get children memorising what smaller numbers look like before they can even write them down.
Throw in the easy multiplications like x5, x10 and maybe x8, and there is very little left to use the system I mentioned on.
Yest it uses a lot of different methods of doing things, some of which can be applied to the same pai or numbers, but thats the easiest way of remembering things, by relating them to other things. Some of those multiplications stand out like beacons because you can use several different methods to do them, allowing you to derive from that point outwards.
At school we had to learn our tables by rote, then in the next year they started us on bigger multiplications, without any new knowledge on how to do them, If I'd learned from the start how to do it the way I use now, I could have progressed faster from the beginning.
The system works. I can do mental arithmetic faster than most people by using it. Being autistic has nothing to do with it either. If I use the same methods as everyone else I can do things in the same time.
Selecting the best way to perform a function is all part of computer programming. You select algorithms to optimise for speed, memory usage or programmer readability, and more often than not making a program out of simple parts that work together is the best way to fulfil all the criteria, including the one of reusability. Applying what you already have to future problems.
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
SILVER Member
member
186 posts
Location: San Francisco, USA
member
186 posts
Location: San Francisco, USA
Posted:
I utterly despised math. Telling me to blindly and moronically memorize pointless abstract crap for no explainable reason DOES NOT WORK, especially not when the teachers themselves have no effing idea what the hell they're talking about, because THEY only know it by memorization and what the book says. Asking questions like 'so why does the quadratic equation thingie work, what is it, where did it come from?' and getting answers like 'just do what the book says' are why I hated math.
Then I took trig-level physics, from a professor that's mind-numbingly amazing. Now I know what the hell math is FOR, what it DOES, and WHY-- particularly as I am a very VISUAL person... once I was dealing with graphs, things in 3 dimensions, it finally started to actually make sense-- it's shapes, it's movement. If they'd just TOLD ME THAT TO BEGIN WITH, everything would have been FINE.
Everything up till now has just been rules. Groundwork. Multiply this before dividing that, this symbol does this, blah blah etc. There's no sense stopping here. My father is a structural engineer, I've heard a great deal about how much more sense things make when you know stuff like calculus-- so I'm going to keep going.
I am so furious that the short-sighted, rote-based education system has turned off so many people-- especially girls-- from a subject that's so useful and interesting, by so often teaching it in the most boring, aggravating, mindless way possible.
I utterly despised math. Telling me to blindly and moronically memorize pointless abstract crap for no explainable reason DOES NOT WORK, especially not when the teachers themselves have no effing idea what the hell they're talking about, because THEY only know it by memorization and what the book says. Asking questions like 'so why does the quadratic equation thingie work, what is it, where did it come from?' and getting answers like 'just do what the book says' are why I hated math.
Then I took trig-level physics, from a professor that's mind-numbingly amazing. Now I know what the hell math is FOR, what it DOES, and WHY-- particularly as I am a very VISUAL person... once I was dealing with graphs, things in 3 dimensions, it finally started to actually make sense-- it's shapes, it's movement. If they'd just TOLD ME THAT TO BEGIN WITH, everything would have been FINE.
Everything up till now has just been rules. Groundwork. Multiply this before dividing that, this symbol does this, blah blah etc. There's no sense stopping here. My father is a structural engineer, I've heard a great deal about how much more sense things make when you know stuff like calculus-- so I'm going to keep going.
I am so furious that the short-sighted, rote-based education system has turned off so many people-- especially girls-- from a subject that's so useful and interesting, by so often teaching it in the most boring, aggravating, mindless way possible.
"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X
SILVER Member
veteran
1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
veteran
1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
Posted:
That's exactly why I'm against rote learning of tables. They're dull, dull, dull. There's nothing in them to inspire you, to look for the deeper meaning. Physics may look for the answers to the universal questions, and physicists like to think they're going to find them, but mathematics goes beyond physics to the fundamental rules that the universe is built on. Essentially the answers are already there.
People who study maths beyond their PhDs would never settle for rote tables, they'll always have more interesting ways to do things. There's a certain kind of faith that comes from doing high level mathematics that you can only get from looking at how it all fits together underneath every day things and having endless 'OMFG! It's all so f**king beautiful!' moments.
Written by: NYC
I can't imagine anything less excessively complicated or more useful than the multiplication tables.
For the love of God!
That's exactly why I'm against rote learning of tables. They're dull, dull, dull. There's nothing in them to inspire you, to look for the deeper meaning. Physics may look for the answers to the universal questions, and physicists like to think they're going to find them, but mathematics goes beyond physics to the fundamental rules that the universe is built on. Essentially the answers are already there.
People who study maths beyond their PhDs would never settle for rote tables, they'll always have more interesting ways to do things. There's a certain kind of faith that comes from doing high level mathematics that you can only get from looking at how it all fits together underneath every day things and having endless 'OMFG! It's all so f**king beautiful!' moments.
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
GOLD Member
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
well im an engineer so have slogged through the 2 years university calculus & whatnot. You think calculus is impractical? its a godsend to something like matrix applications. who seriously needs to understand 9-dimensional vector subspace!
anyway i digress. No ive never directly used all the mathematics that i picked up is school or uni. Ive never had to determine the surface area of a triangular segment of a sphere or any other wierd and wonderful calculus based applications.
then again, ive never used by in-depth study of Pride and Prejudice, or regularly thrown chunks of sodium into water, or used a 3 lense system to focus light, and those toilet roll and milk bottle sculptures i made in grade 1 certainly have never been any use to me...
as the ever-wise NYC said:
thats precisely how i view education- but i think that message is frequently lost. Sure I've never use my indepth knowledge of Jane Austin novels (unless trying to impress one of the female species ) but i dont deny that the 8 weeks going through that text developed my skills in critical analysis of text and thematic construction, and writing multiple 1 paragraph, 1 page, and 5 page reports of various aspects of the book - which were then assessed and marked by my teacher, no doubt improved by essay/report writing skills (but, reading over this, clearly has not help my sentence construction in internet forum posts)
I think maths is similar - there is a combination of core skills like times table which are a good basis of general knowledge, and understanding what percentage means and how interest compounds etc etc. But there is also the element of teaching "how to think" and "how to solve problems" that you get when you approach situations which require a logical systematic approach.
(incidently, i wonder why we summarise mathematics as 'maths' but in USA you use 'math'? hmmm).
That being said, education in the math/sciency/engineering areas is at an interesting point at which it may be no longer necessary to understand as much about the theoretical basis of the subject due to the available computing power.
I saw this in my engineering coures - several of the older member of staff believed it was essential to be able to design a 11- stage industrial distillation process by pen and paper (and maybe a calculator if your lucky). In reality i would never do that, because we have funky software that does it all for us. so do we need to learn this? Likewise, but of the traditional maths intergration/calculus work would only be used by the programmers who design our economics/music/graphics etc etc etc programs - and we would never need to even understand it.
but then it can be dangerous just trusting the numbers that a computer spits out without knowing how the concepts work... its a tough call.
but why is maths intimidating? maths is intimidating for many because it a concept based subject. you have to visualise both the numbers and hypothetical situation to which these need to apply. there is no rat to cut up, no explosions or pretty colour changes, no wooden trolley to time travelling down the ramp, and no story you simply have to read and analyse. I think that lack of clear practical analogies made several of my friends struggle with it at school.
E
well im an engineer so have slogged through the 2 years university calculus & whatnot. You think calculus is impractical? its a godsend to something like matrix applications. who seriously needs to understand 9-dimensional vector subspace!
anyway i digress. No ive never directly used all the mathematics that i picked up is school or uni. Ive never had to determine the surface area of a triangular segment of a sphere or any other wierd and wonderful calculus based applications.
then again, ive never used by in-depth study of Pride and Prejudice, or regularly thrown chunks of sodium into water, or used a 3 lense system to focus light, and those toilet roll and milk bottle sculptures i made in grade 1 certainly have never been any use to me...
as the ever-wise NYC said:
Written by:
I do believe in teaching some subjects for the sake of teaching people how to learn. I don't think direct practicality should be the ONLY factor in teaching something.
thats precisely how i view education- but i think that message is frequently lost. Sure I've never use my indepth knowledge of Jane Austin novels (unless trying to impress one of the female species
) but i dont deny that the 8 weeks going through that text developed my skills in critical analysis of text and thematic construction, and writing multiple 1 paragraph, 1 page, and 5 page reports of various aspects of the book - which were then assessed and marked by my teacher, no doubt improved by essay/report writing skills (but, reading over this, clearly has not help my sentence construction in internet forum posts)I think maths is similar - there is a combination of core skills like times table which are a good basis of general knowledge, and understanding what percentage means and how interest compounds etc etc. But there is also the element of teaching "how to think" and "how to solve problems" that you get when you approach situations which require a logical systematic approach.
(incidently, i wonder why we summarise mathematics as 'maths' but in USA you use 'math'? hmmm).
That being said, education in the math/sciency/engineering areas is at an interesting point at which it may be no longer necessary to understand as much about the theoretical basis of the subject due to the available computing power.
I saw this in my engineering coures - several of the older member of staff believed it was essential to be able to design a 11- stage industrial distillation process by pen and paper (and maybe a calculator if your lucky). In reality i would never do that, because we have funky software that does it all for us. so do we need to learn this? Likewise, but of the traditional maths intergration/calculus work would only be used by the programmers who design our economics/music/graphics etc etc etc programs - and we would never need to even understand it.
but then it can be dangerous just trusting the numbers that a computer spits out without knowing how the concepts work... its a tough call.
but why is maths intimidating? maths is intimidating for many because it a concept based subject. you have to visualise both the numbers and hypothetical situation to which these need to apply. there is no rat to cut up, no explosions or pretty colour changes, no wooden trolley to time travelling down the ramp, and no story you simply have to read and analyse. I think that lack of clear practical analogies made several of my friends struggle with it at school.
E
"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
SILVER Member
member
186 posts
Location: San Francisco, USA
member
186 posts
Location: San Francisco, USA
Posted:
WHAT HE SAID.
EDITED_BY: Gnarly Cranium (1173161193)
Written by: polarity
There's a certain kind of faith that comes from doing high level mathematics that you can only get from looking at how it all fits together underneath every day things and having endless 'OMFG! It's all so f**king beautiful!' moments.
WHAT HE SAID.
EDITED_BY: Gnarly Cranium (1173161193)
"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X
GOLD Member
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
if your teachers really cannot prove the quadratic equation (or for that matter remember where to find it) thats pretty shocking. Its a basic 10-step algrebraic rearrangement - admitedly theres a couple of tricky steps but its not that hard!
Written by: Gnarly Cranium
Asking questions like 'so why does the quadratic equation thingie work, what is it, where did it come from?' and getting answers like 'just do what the book says' are why I hated math.
if your teachers really cannot prove the quadratic equation (or for that matter remember where to find it) thats pretty shocking. Its a basic 10-step algrebraic rearrangement - admitedly theres a couple of tricky steps but its not that hard!
"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
SILVER Member
member
186 posts
Location: San Francisco, USA
member
186 posts
Location: San Francisco, USA
Posted:
Oh my college profs knew what was going on-- but in high school?? Forget it!! I utterly failed my first college algebra class thanks to the jackasses I had in high school. I didn't learn a damn thing from them.
My high school algebra teacher was the coach of the girls' swimming and basketball teams. That's all he talked about during class-- before assigning a 100-problem homework assignment right before the bell. He originally wanted to be a DENTIST but couldn't make it, and became a P.E. teacher instead. These yahoos get handed a math book and told to teach it-- but they wouldn't know how to prove their ass from a hole in the ground.
Oh my college profs knew what was going on-- but in high school?? Forget it!! I utterly failed my first college algebra class thanks to the jackasses I had in high school. I didn't learn a damn thing from them.
My high school algebra teacher was the coach of the girls' swimming and basketball teams. That's all he talked about during class-- before assigning a 100-problem homework assignment right before the bell. He originally wanted to be a DENTIST but couldn't make it, and became a P.E. teacher instead. These yahoos get handed a math book and told to teach it-- but they wouldn't know how to prove their ass from a hole in the ground.
"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X
SILVER Member
veteran
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Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
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1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
Posted:
Our high school computer studies teacher had the job because he owned a computer. He had a degree in theology and ancient languages. The guy in charge of the IT department was a business studies nut ("Computers are for spreadsheets, data-bases and word-processing!, there will be no games or graphics on the school computers!"), who always wore a totally grey suit, tie and shoes. Dull as F*** (in the head too).
I wrote an AI program for my coursework, the teachers couldn't undersand any of it and just accused me of plagiarism rather than admit their own ignorance, and I lost 30% of my grade for the course. I got a C grade thanks to 100% on the exams.
While computers are what I've always been interested in and have the greatest aptitude at, those two teachers put me off studying computers for years. I ended up doing sciences as a second choice rather than study under them again, because the biology teacher was simply amazing (stuffed alligator hanging from his ceiling, and a tank of axolotls on the window sill).
I went to a college after sixth form to study fishkeeping, and ended up getting back into computers because they had an internet room there.
Couldn't find any universities that combine computer programming and computer graphics, so I dropped out of two degrees that did them separately, because I was just using the facilities to teach myself what I could. When you do the same things in the first year of a degree that you did at high school (exactly the same spreadsheet project on a window frame factory in one case), and there is compulsory attendance for all lectures (FOR, NEXT loops and IF, THEN, ELSE conditionals in programming? I was doing those when I was eight, I don't want to be stuck in a 2 hour lecture on them) you end up saying f*** it, and skipping lectures because you don't fancy having your time wasted when you could be learning something valuable at your own pace, and having a great social life at the same time. I spent 2 years in London going to some great psy-trance parties (and throwing a couple too), and doing 3D UV decor at them using all the maths I'd learned.
I've learned a whole load more by myself about the business I always wanted to go into, and now I've finally got a good computer and projector I'm lining up VJing gigs, where I can use my love of maths to make some stunning visuals.
Maths: Good.
Having a way to actually make it useful: Better.
Education: W.o.M.B.a.T.
Our high school computer studies teacher had the job because he owned a computer. He had a degree in theology and ancient languages. The guy in charge of the IT department was a business studies nut ("Computers are for spreadsheets, data-bases and word-processing!, there will be no games or graphics on the school computers!"), who always wore a totally grey suit, tie and shoes. Dull as F*** (in the head too).
I wrote an AI program for my coursework, the teachers couldn't undersand any of it and just accused me of plagiarism rather than admit their own ignorance, and I lost 30% of my grade for the course. I got a C grade thanks to 100% on the exams.
While computers are what I've always been interested in and have the greatest aptitude at, those two teachers put me off studying computers for years. I ended up doing sciences as a second choice rather than study under them again, because the biology teacher was simply amazing (stuffed alligator hanging from his ceiling, and a tank of axolotls on the window sill).
I went to a college after sixth form to study fishkeeping, and ended up getting back into computers because they had an internet room there.
Couldn't find any universities that combine computer programming and computer graphics, so I dropped out of two degrees that did them separately, because I was just using the facilities to teach myself what I could. When you do the same things in the first year of a degree that you did at high school (exactly the same spreadsheet project on a window frame factory in one case), and there is compulsory attendance for all lectures (FOR, NEXT loops and IF, THEN, ELSE conditionals in programming? I was doing those when I was eight, I don't want to be stuck in a 2 hour lecture on them) you end up saying f*** it, and skipping lectures because you don't fancy having your time wasted when you could be learning something valuable at your own pace, and having a great social life at the same time. I spent 2 years in London going to some great psy-trance parties (and throwing a couple too), and doing 3D UV decor at them using all the maths I'd learned.
I've learned a whole load more by myself about the business I always wanted to go into, and now I've finally got a good computer and projector I'm lining up VJing gigs, where I can use my love of maths to make some stunning visuals.
Maths: Good.
Having a way to actually make it useful: Better.
Education: W.o.M.B.a.T.
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
My mother advises not to stand on the dryer whilst drunk
43 posts
Location: 20,000 LEAGUES UNDER THE SEA
43 posts
Location: 20,000 LEAGUES UNDER THE SEA
Posted:
Bobo,
I completely identify with your rant. I know in Alberta ever since we switched to Pure, Applied (academic vrs. standard math) people having been flunking out right, left & center. I've never been quite able to readily understand what, but something is obviously flawed with our highschool math system. I've been very drawn to the conclusion (very paranoid delusional & conspirical it may be) that our government is purposely trying to flunk people, thin out the university populations-they were getting to crowded anyway.....this is fuelled by the some art program enterance standards (for u of c-specifically) requiring an 75% pure math average....hmmmm...But, enough of my conspiracy rants....(CSIS will be at my door at any moment now...)
I've always been bothered at how sciences & maths our taught.....that whole condrum repeatedly redundately in a classroom-students asking why we need to know this or that? Usaully answered by "because you do". I heard a qoute once, that memorization is the lowest form of learning, and I whole-heartedly agree-its quite hard to be ambitious about learning to throw numbers into a equation (like a good machine would-these are memories of my pure math class) without function or purpose. It's odd how in the past we achieved & retained knowledge by pursuing endeavors to satisfy our curiosities-now we just cram it skulls as fast & hard as we can and hope we don't implode.....if you understand what I mean-I don't know how to quite articulate it......
This puts me in the mood for Martyr index's "from the schools to the factories in 3 easy steps..."
yep....
Bobo,
I completely identify with your rant. I know in Alberta ever since we switched to Pure, Applied (academic vrs. standard math) people having been flunking out right, left & center. I've never been quite able to readily understand what, but something is obviously flawed with our highschool math system. I've been very drawn to the conclusion (very paranoid delusional & conspirical it may be) that our government is purposely trying to flunk people, thin out the university populations-they were getting to crowded anyway.....this is fuelled by the some art program enterance standards (for u of c-specifically) requiring an 75% pure math average....hmmmm...But, enough of my conspiracy rants....(CSIS will be at my door at any moment now...)
I've always been bothered at how sciences & maths our taught.....that whole condrum repeatedly redundately in a classroom-students asking why we need to know this or that? Usaully answered by "because you do". I heard a qoute once, that memorization is the lowest form of learning, and I whole-heartedly agree-its quite hard to be ambitious about learning to throw numbers into a equation (like a good machine would-these are memories of my pure math class) without function or purpose. It's odd how in the past we achieved & retained knowledge by pursuing endeavors to satisfy our curiosities-now we just cram it skulls as fast & hard as we can and hope we don't implode.....if you understand what I mean-I don't know how to quite articulate it......
This puts me in the mood for Martyr index's "from the schools to the factories in 3 easy steps..."
yep....
SILVER Member
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
Posted:
im not scared of it, excpet when it involves the word statistic or numerical. integration is fun... you know it
im not scared of it, excpet when it involves the word statistic or numerical. integration is fun... you know it
Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no
GOLD Member
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
ahh. that is obviously a use of the word 'fun' i was previously unaware of.
ahh. that is obviously a use of the word 'fun' i was previously unaware of.
"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
just people involved in robotics, huge chunks of computer science (like AI, evolutionary computing inparticular genetic algorithms), physics, accoustic/mechatronic/some mechanical engineering, investment banking or actually just anything to do with analysing data for trends and optimisation really. Calculus is simple if taught correctly
amen maths rocks, teachers play a huuuuuuuge role in helping students to realise this.
Written by: NYC
Long story short: Calculus is stupid. Nobody uses it.
just people involved in robotics, huge chunks of computer science (like AI, evolutionary computing inparticular genetic algorithms), physics, accoustic/mechatronic/some mechanical engineering, investment banking or actually just anything to do with analysing data for trends and optimisation really. Calculus is simple if taught correctlyWritten by: spritie
I absolutely loved math. Why? That was due in large part to my teachers from 7th grade on up.
amen maths rocks, teachers play a huuuuuuuge role in helping students to realise this.
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
enthusiast
301 posts
301 posts
Posted:
Maths is not fun
It's very dry, and particularly at high school level involves being given a technique, and then some problems and getting them right. No imagination is required.
A big issue I think some people have is that if you're wrong your just wrong and you need to learn it right. Thats not like history or English where you'll always be at least a little right.
It's also impossible to relate to. Our brains are well adapted to understand other people and for empathy e.t.c and I think it's easier for most people to engage with history or any subject that deals with people. Geography and sciences are pretty interesting too but maths???
I did a lot of maths at school, mainly because I was good at it and it didn't require so much effort. Much easier to push some numbers round a page than write an essay.
I personally am very glad that I know some calculus and I have actually used it a few times in the real world. Maths skills are increasingly in demand as maths gets less popular. I like all the maths I understand, it's elegant and very useful.
I bloody hate trying to understand the stuff I'm meant to be learning now though, it's doing my head in. I can only concentrate for half an hour or an hour tops before I have to walk around in circles groaning slightly.
I don't really seem to have a point here. I like the subject but I can see why most people don't. I think that natural aptitude certainly is a factor, but teaching is doubtless important. In conclusion....if you can do it good for you, if you can't don't worry about it.
EDITED_BY: Mascot (1173320210)
Maths is not fun
It's very dry, and particularly at high school level involves being given a technique, and then some problems and getting them right. No imagination is required.
A big issue I think some people have is that if you're wrong your just wrong and you need to learn it right. Thats not like history or English where you'll always be at least a little right.
It's also impossible to relate to. Our brains are well adapted to understand other people and for empathy e.t.c and I think it's easier for most people to engage with history or any subject that deals with people. Geography and sciences are pretty interesting too but maths???
I did a lot of maths at school, mainly because I was good at it and it didn't require so much effort. Much easier to push some numbers round a page than write an essay.
I personally am very glad that I know some calculus and I have actually used it a few times in the real world. Maths skills are increasingly in demand as maths gets less popular. I like all the maths I understand, it's elegant and very useful.
I bloody hate trying to understand the stuff I'm meant to be learning now though, it's doing my head in. I can only concentrate for half an hour or an hour tops before I have to walk around in circles groaning slightly.
I don't really seem to have a point here. I like the subject but I can see why most people don't. I think that natural aptitude certainly is a factor, but teaching is doubtless important. In conclusion....if you can do it good for you, if you can't don't worry about it.
EDITED_BY: Mascot (1173320210)
Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Like I said, Long story short: Nobody.
Slightly longer story: The amount of years of calculus vs. statistics taken in High School in US is grossly disproportionate to the practical and professional applications of the two fields.
I could site data but you'd definitely have to pay me to relive my master's degree.
*runs away*
Written by: ben-ja-menWritten by: NYC
Long story short: Calculus is stupid. Nobody uses it.
Like I said, Long story short: Nobody.
Slightly longer story: The amount of years of calculus vs. statistics taken in High School in US is grossly disproportionate to the practical and professional applications of the two fields.
I could site data but you'd definitely have to pay me to relive my master's degree.
*runs away*
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
GOLD Member
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
Good. If it got to the point of you using statistics to prove the practicality of statistics in the thread, i would be forced to integrate the entire thing down a toilet
incidently, i had my first practical usage for complex numbers the other day. thats right - 6 years of school maths and a few years of uni, and the only time i have ever had to use 'i' was to help the receptionists daughter with her yr 11 maths homework.
its like a never ending cycle out of The Twilight Zone!
E.
EDITED_BY: Dentrassi (1173323801)
Written by: NYC
Slightly longer story: The amount of years of calculus vs. statistics taken in High School in US is grossly disproportionate to the practical and professional applications of the two fields.
I could site data but you'd definitely have to pay me to relive my master's degree.
*runs away*
Good. If it got to the point of you using statistics to prove the practicality of statistics in the thread, i would be forced to integrate the entire thing down a toilet
incidently, i had my first practical usage for complex numbers the other day. thats right - 6 years of school maths and a few years of uni, and the only time i have ever had to use 'i' was to help the receptionists daughter with her yr 11 maths homework.
its like a never ending cycle out of The Twilight Zone!
E.
EDITED_BY: Dentrassi (1173323801)
"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
BRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted:
mmm personally I think at least a basic understanding of statistics is valuable - since so many governmental and institutional decisions are based on it..not to mention the opinion polls :shudder:
ordinary peoples lives are easily manipulated by politicians hiring researchers who know how to run numbers to arrive at a particular result.
I wish I had a couple of cents for each of the times Ive read articles in the paper presenting a correlation as proof or suggestion of causation.
mmm personally I think at least a basic understanding of statistics is valuable - since so many governmental and institutional decisions are based on it..not to mention the opinion polls :shudder:
ordinary peoples lives are easily manipulated by politicians hiring researchers who know how to run numbers to arrive at a particular result.
I wish I had a couple of cents for each of the times Ive read articles in the paper presenting a correlation as proof or suggestion of causation.
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
BRONZE Member
newbie
44 posts
Location: South Florida, USA
newbie
44 posts
Location: South Florida, USA
Posted:
a basic understanding of algebra is essential if you want to be a smart shopper.. how else can you figure out which is the better bargain?
a basic understanding of algebra is essential if you want to be a smart shopper.. how else can you figure out which is the better bargain?
Every Day I add another name to the list of people who piss me off
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