Forums > Social Discussion > America's real reason for wanting to attack Iran?
Login/Join to ParticipateSILVER Member
member
151 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom
member
151 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posted:
There's a theory that America's hostility towards Iran has nothing to do with nuclear weapons, but is a result of Iran's plans to set up the first oil market that will trade in Euros instead of American dollars. If successful the Iranian Oil Bourse could theoretically lead to the collapse of the US economy (i.e., the end of the American empire), since the main reason countries keep dollar reserves is because it is the only currency that can be used to buy oil. Incidently the US also attacked Iraq shortly after Saddam decided that he was not going to accept US dollars for Iraqi oil but wanted Euros instead.
Here's a very interesting article giving all the background:
https://www.energybulletin.net/12125.html
There's a theory that America's hostility towards Iran has nothing to do with nuclear weapons, but is a result of Iran's plans to set up the first oil market that will trade in Euros instead of American dollars. If successful the Iranian Oil Bourse could theoretically lead to the collapse of the US economy (i.e., the end of the American empire), since the main reason countries keep dollar reserves is because it is the only currency that can be used to buy oil. Incidently the US also attacked Iraq shortly after Saddam decided that he was not going to accept US dollars for Iraqi oil but wanted Euros instead.
Here's a very interesting article giving all the background:
https://www.energybulletin.net/12125.html
GOLD Member
Member
55 posts
Location: kildare, Ireland
Member
55 posts
Location: kildare, Ireland
Posted:
i have indeed in fact i cant even see my eye lids unless i close my eyes or look in a mirror
i have indeed in fact i cant even see my eye lids unless i close my eyes or look in a mirror
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
dude, you need to sit on a couch listening to some beats and chill the funk out.
dude, you need to sit on a couch listening to some beats and chill the funk out.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
GOLD Member
Member
55 posts
Location: kildare, Ireland
Member
55 posts
Location: kildare, Ireland
Posted:
this is chilled things get very strange when im stressed out
this is chilled things get very strange when im stressed out
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
back on track
i wasn't saying iran threatened china or that china was going to invade...the point was if threats were made it would most likely be smaller countries or countries that are some distance away...you don't want to piss off you larger neighbors
back on track
i wasn't saying iran threatened china or that china was going to invade...the point was if threats were made it would most likely be smaller countries or countries that are some distance away...you don't want to piss off you larger neighbors
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
SILVER Member
member
151 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom
member
151 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posted:
I thought we were talking about Tibet and the Devil Lama..? Just kidding.
Regarding the making of threats, I don't think that has a lot to do with the size and strength of countries. You don't threaten another country just because they're weaker than you, there has to be some political reason for it. I don't think Iran has had conflicts with any of its neighbours other than Iraq, and that again was a US sponsored war. The US (and other western countries) supported and paid for Iraq to attack Iran with chemical weapons. Talk about moral high ground!
Written by: faithinfire
back on track
i wasn't saying iran threatened china or that china was going to invade...the point was if threats were made it would most likely be smaller countries or countries that are some distance away...you don't want to piss off you larger neighbors
I thought we were talking about Tibet and the Devil Lama..? Just kidding.
Regarding the making of threats, I don't think that has a lot to do with the size and strength of countries. You don't threaten another country just because they're weaker than you, there has to be some political reason for it. I don't think Iran has had conflicts with any of its neighbours other than Iraq, and that again was a US sponsored war. The US (and other western countries) supported and paid for Iraq to attack Iran with chemical weapons. Talk about moral high ground!
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
i would say that the political reason is to look tough...like bullies...the bigger the risk...the better you look
i would say that the political reason is to look tough...like bullies...the bigger the risk...the better you look
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
unless you look stupid for trying.
Written by: faithinfire
i would say that the political reason is to look tough...like bullies...the bigger the risk...the better you look
unless you look stupid for trying.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
ah but they are testing with the whole nuclear thing and that will change the dynamic a bit
ah but they are testing with the whole nuclear thing and that will change the dynamic a bit
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
SILVER Member
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
Posted:
The source of Iraqi arms purchases between 1970 and 1990 (10% of the world market during this period) are estimated to be:
Soviet Union $19.2 billion dollars or 61% of total Iraqi military spending
France $5.5 billion dollars 18% of total Iraqi military spending
People's Republic of China $1.7 billion dollars 5% of total Iraqi military spending
Brazil $1.1 billion dollars 4% of total Iraqi military spending
Egypt $1.1 billion dollars 4% of total Iraqi military spending
Other countries $2.9 billion dollars 6% of total Iraqi military spending
Total Iraqi military spending for the period was $31.5 billion dollars
The U.S. sold Iraq $200 million in helicopters, which were used by the Iraqi military in the war. These were the only direct U.S.-Iraqi military sales and were valued to be about 0.6% of Iraq's conventional weapons imports during the war.
Bear in mind - given your erroneous claim that 'the US (and other western countries) supported and paid for Iraq to attack Iran with chemical weapons' - that as of 1982 Iraq had offered peace to restore the 1980 borders. After 1982 most of the fighting took place in Iraq...
Based on the evidence of Iraqi arms and chemical weapon purchases around the time of the Iran Iraq war it makes no sense to claim it was a US financed venture.
What however is completely morally bankrupt, is the fact that the US ended up selling arms to both parties... Whereas Iraq's army was mainly Soviet equipped, the Iranian army had always been US equipped as until 1979 the ruler of Iran had been the Shah - who was installed in a UK/US financed coup - largely as a result of an Iranian threat to nationalise the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company - now known as BP! Regime change... For Oil??? Who'd have believed it...
Moreover the arms that went to Iran were through the Iran/Contra affair, which saw senior members of the Regan administration selling arms to an avowed enemy (Iran), and participating in the international crack cocaine trade (flooding black ghettos around LA), using the proceeds to finance anti-Sandinista (communist) death squads in Nicaragua who used US air power to coordinate attacks on soft (undefended civilian) targets. The result was that 60,000 Nicaraguans died and 150,000 were displaced. Consequently the Nicaraguan voters decided that a US puppet regime was preferable to continued massacre.
(this is one of them things wot brings out the raging punk from beneath the streams of smoke)
On a brighter footnote... Hooray for Ortega (Sandinista leader) winning the Nicaraguan election a few weeks back
Written by: Yellfire
I don't think Iran has had conflicts with any of its neighbours other than Iraq, and that again was a US sponsored war. The US (and other western countries) supported and paid for Iraq to attack Iran with chemical weapons. Talk about moral high ground!
The source of Iraqi arms purchases between 1970 and 1990 (10% of the world market during this period) are estimated to be:
Soviet Union $19.2 billion dollars or 61% of total Iraqi military spending
France $5.5 billion dollars 18% of total Iraqi military spending
People's Republic of China $1.7 billion dollars 5% of total Iraqi military spending
Brazil $1.1 billion dollars 4% of total Iraqi military spending
Egypt $1.1 billion dollars 4% of total Iraqi military spending
Other countries $2.9 billion dollars 6% of total Iraqi military spending
Total Iraqi military spending for the period was $31.5 billion dollars
The U.S. sold Iraq $200 million in helicopters, which were used by the Iraqi military in the war. These were the only direct U.S.-Iraqi military sales and were valued to be about 0.6% of Iraq's conventional weapons imports during the war.
Written by: wikipedia
In December 2002, Iraq's 1,200 page Weapons Declaration revealed a list of Eastern and Western corporations and countries, as well as individuals, that exported a total of 17,602 tons of chemical precursors to Iraq in the past two decades. By far, the largest suppliers of precursors for chemical weapons production were in Singapore (4,515 tons), the Netherlands (4,261 tons), Egypt (2,400 tons), India (2,343 tons), and Federal Republic of Germany (1,027 tons). One Indian company, Exomet Plastics (now part of EPC Industrie) sent 2,292 tons of precursor chemicals to Iraq. The Kim Al-Khaleej firm, located in Singapore and affiliated to United Arab Emirates, supplied more than 4,500 tons of VX, sarin, and mustard gas precursors and production equipment to Iraq.[34]
According to the Washington Post, the CIA began in 1984 secretly to give Iraq intelligence that Iraq used to "calibrate" its mustard gas attacks on Iranian troops. In August, the CIA establishes a direct Washington-Baghdad intelligence link, and for 18 months, starting in early 1985, the CIA provided Iraq with "data from sensitive U.S. satellite reconnaissance photography...to assist Iraqi bombing raids." The Post’s source said that this data was essential to Iraq’s war effort
Bear in mind - given your erroneous claim that 'the US (and other western countries) supported and paid for Iraq to attack Iran with chemical weapons' - that as of 1982 Iraq had offered peace to restore the 1980 borders. After 1982 most of the fighting took place in Iraq...
Based on the evidence of Iraqi arms and chemical weapon purchases around the time of the Iran Iraq war it makes no sense to claim it was a US financed venture.
What however is completely morally bankrupt, is the fact that the US ended up selling arms to both parties... Whereas Iraq's army was mainly Soviet equipped, the Iranian army had always been US equipped as until 1979 the ruler of Iran had been the Shah - who was installed in a UK/US financed coup - largely as a result of an Iranian threat to nationalise the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company - now known as BP! Regime change... For Oil??? Who'd have believed it...
Moreover the arms that went to Iran were through the Iran/Contra affair, which saw senior members of the Regan administration selling arms to an avowed enemy (Iran), and participating in the international crack cocaine trade (flooding black ghettos around LA), using the proceeds to finance anti-Sandinista (communist) death squads in Nicaragua who used US air power to coordinate attacks on soft (undefended civilian) targets. The result was that 60,000 Nicaraguans died and 150,000 were displaced. Consequently the Nicaraguan voters decided that a US puppet regime was preferable to continued massacre.
(this is one of them things wot brings out the raging punk from beneath the streams of smoke)
On a brighter footnote... Hooray for Ortega (Sandinista leader) winning the Nicaraguan election a few weeks back
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
oooh we have reagan to blame for the crack all over milwaukee...(or is it just la)
oooh we have reagan to blame for the crack all over milwaukee...(or is it just la)
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
SILVER Member
Are you up for it??
349 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Are you up for it??
349 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
I'm surprised this thread wasn't around bout 2-3 yrs ago when everyone was discussing this issue.
Yes George W Bush is a greedy b**tard for wanting their oil, we can all blame alot of things on past and present American leaders.
This was never gonna change with GWB Jnr
*They meaning American Presidents
They always have, do and probably always will put their "2 cents" worth into all things none of their business eg Iran only wanting Nuclear energy (like USA)
I wonder what would happen if NZ decided to change to nuclear energy?
Would we get threatened just because our country did not support their invasion of Iraq without United Nations approval?
This world is f**kd with American Idiots like George trying to be the world's super power
I'm surprised this thread wasn't around bout 2-3 yrs ago when everyone was discussing this issue.
Yes George W Bush is a greedy b**tard for wanting their oil, we can all blame alot of things on past and present American leaders.
This was never gonna change with GWB Jnr
*They meaning American Presidents
They always have, do and probably always will put their "2 cents" worth into all things none of their business eg Iran only wanting Nuclear energy (like USA)
I wonder what would happen if NZ decided to change to nuclear energy?
Would we get threatened just because our country did not support their invasion of Iraq without United Nations approval?
This world is f**kd with American Idiots like George trying to be the world's super power
Are you up for it?
;)
BRONZE Member
official hop cutie
272 posts
Location: Uk, Essex, Clacton
official hop cutie
272 posts
Location: Uk, Essex, Clacton
Posted:
the american army travel to all forign postings with a burger king I kid you not
the american army travel to all forign postings with a burger king I kid you not
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry pratchett
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
well, the economics joke that i heard is that there has been no war in countries with mcdonalds-whether it is true...
also, i believe that there would be no problem on us american idiots side for nz going nuclear-not a whole lot of terrorists coming out of there as far as i know...your leader is not taunting nuclear commissioners, overall, other than rude comments nz seems pretty ok
well, the economics joke that i heard is that there has been no war in countries with mcdonalds-whether it is true...
also, i believe that there would be no problem on us american idiots side for nz going nuclear-not a whole lot of terrorists coming out of there as far as i know...your leader is not taunting nuclear commissioners, overall, other than rude comments nz seems pretty ok
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
BRONZE Member
official hop cutie
272 posts
Location: Uk, Essex, Clacton
official hop cutie
272 posts
Location: Uk, Essex, Clacton
Posted:
a case of your not aloud the big toys till you learn to play with the other kids nicely
a case of your not aloud the big toys till you learn to play with the other kids nicely
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry pratchett
SILVER Member
Are you up for it??
349 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Are you up for it??
349 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
*please reread my post
I was not calling all American's idiot's, just George Bush.
Sheesh, when did it change to "only American's can insult their President?"
Written by: faithinfire
also, i believe that there would be no problem on us american idiots side for nz going nuclear .....
*please reread my post
I was not calling all American's idiot's, just George Bush.
Sheesh, when did it change to "only American's can insult their President?"
Are you up for it?;)
GOLD Member
hehe, 'Member' huhuh
6,120 posts
Location: Behind you. With Jam
hehe, 'Member' huhuh
6,120 posts
Location: Behind you. With Jam
Posted:
It's things like this which makes me long for another great flood...
Biblical or otherwise...
Huh? What do you mean 'global warming'...?
It's things like this which makes me long for another great flood...
Biblical or otherwise...
Huh? What do you mean 'global warming'...?
"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
some australian politicians are considering nuclear power, and exporting uranium and then storing waste back here.
haven heard the US threatening invasion yet.
some australian politicians are considering nuclear power, and exporting uranium and then storing waste back here.
haven heard the US threatening invasion yet.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
SILVER Member
your new best enemy
246 posts
Location: over the river, through the woods, USA
your new best enemy
246 posts
Location: over the river, through the woods, USA
Posted:
plausible... the worth of the american dollar goes up when when the price of oil rises. even IN america. the more we pay for gas, the more our dollar is worth. coincidence? probably not. so, it's kind of counter productive. the more our dollar is worth to the rest of the world, the less it's worth to us.... wierd.
plausible... the worth of the american dollar goes up when when the price of oil rises. even IN america. the more we pay for gas, the more our dollar is worth. coincidence? probably not. so, it's kind of counter productive. the more our dollar is worth to the rest of the world, the less it's worth to us.... wierd.
I'll get there too late if I shorten my stride, I'll get there too soon if I find me a ride, I'll never move forward if I try to hide this path that I've troden one step at a time.
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
"This world is f**kd with American Idiots like George trying to be the world's super power"
you said like george
and i don't think it is right to insult the President...i think it is disrespectful-disagree all you want but the personal insults are inappropriate
so then, do we want our dollar worth less here, because it seems to be more beneficial if it is worth more for the rest of the world?
"This world is f**kd with American Idiots like George trying to be the world's super power"
you said like george
and i don't think it is right to insult the President...i think it is disrespectful-disagree all you want but the personal insults are inappropriate
so then, do we want our dollar worth less here, because it seems to be more beneficial if it is worth more for the rest of the world?
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
BRONZE Member
official hop cutie
272 posts
Location: Uk, Essex, Clacton
official hop cutie
272 posts
Location: Uk, Essex, Clacton
Posted:
i think anyone can insult bush exept americans who should hang there heads in shame for there presidents actions
i think anyone can insult bush exept americans who should hang there heads in shame for there presidents actions
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry pratchett
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
i will not hang my head in shame, and what about mr. blair?
i will not hang my head in shame, and what about mr. blair?
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
SILVER Member
member
151 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom
member
151 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posted:
Faith, you're joking about it being inappropriate to insult Bush right?? I mean, after all he is the most mentally retarded president the world has seen in a long time! The fact that he's leading the world's most powerful military just makes it a million times worse.
As for Mr. Blair, much of the UK does hang its head in shame because of him, for being Bush's puppy dog, for leading the UK into an illegal war and making the UK a less safe place than it used to be, and for causing the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people.
But that's the difference between Americans and Brits. We don't consider our political leaders (or flag or national anthem for that matter) to be holy. In fact we make undies out of our flag and sell them to tourists. These things just aren't important at the end of the day.
Faith, you're joking about it being inappropriate to insult Bush right?? I mean, after all he is the most mentally retarded president the world has seen in a long time! The fact that he's leading the world's most powerful military just makes it a million times worse.
As for Mr. Blair, much of the UK does hang its head in shame because of him, for being Bush's puppy dog, for leading the UK into an illegal war and making the UK a less safe place than it used to be, and for causing the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people.
But that's the difference between Americans and Brits. We don't consider our political leaders (or flag or national anthem for that matter) to be holy. In fact we make undies out of our flag and sell them to tourists. These things just aren't important at the end of the day.
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
no i'm not
no i'm not
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
SILVER Member
Are you up for it??
349 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Are you up for it??
349 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
Look Faith, as you can see I'm not the only person that doesn't think very highly of Mr Bush.
Some people agree with you, some don't. Everyone is entitled to "their own opinion" of things, including what they think of Mr George Bush
It's just that I'm a bit more blunt than some other people.
Below is taken from here
"Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Over here alot of kiwi's make fun of/insult Helen Clarke, that's just life (no offense to any kiwi's meant) Hell, even the Aussies do 
I'm sorry if my comments sparked such a debate over opinion's of Mr George W Bush but as you can see, even your own constitution allows me my right to have my opinion
Written by: Yell fire!
Faith, you're joking about it being inappropriate to insult Bush right?? I mean, after all he is the most mentally retarded president the world has seen in a long time!
Look Faith, as you can see I'm not the only person that doesn't think very highly of Mr Bush.
Some people agree with you, some don't. Everyone is entitled to "their own opinion" of things, including what they think of Mr George Bush
It's just that I'm a bit more blunt than some other people.
Below is taken from here
"Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Over here alot of kiwi's make fun of/insult Helen Clarke, that's just life
(no offense to any kiwi's meant) Hell, even the Aussies do I'm sorry if my comments sparked such a debate over opinion's of Mr George W Bush but as you can see, even your own constitution allows me my right to have my opinion
Are you up for it?;)
SILVER Member
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
Posted:
this seems a tad unfair - its a somewhat gross generalisation which is patently untrue in many cases (again...)
or are you positing that Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Michael Albert et al believe GWB is anything other than an asswipe?
Some Yanks love their inept leader. Some hate him. Same as the UK is with Bliar...
Written by: yellfire
But that's the difference between Americans and Brits. We don't consider our political leaders (or flag or national anthem for that matter) to be holy
this seems a tad unfair - its a somewhat gross generalisation which is patently untrue in many cases (again...)
or are you positing that Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Michael Albert et al believe GWB is anything other than an asswipe?
Some Yanks love their inept leader. Some hate him. Same as the UK is with Bliar...
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
you know, the American bashing that occurs on this forum really is insulting and ridiculous. Their leadership is not representative of all the citizens of the USA. Many American citizens are vigorously working to change the electoral system , change the leader, change the foreign policies etc etc. Many amazing generous skilled people,, and ideas, contributing to the world are from the USA. When you make huge inaccurate generalizations you negate or ignore all their efforts, the efforts of a massive , significant amount of people.
You can have an opinion, and are free to express it. When it is an opinion regarding an individual and concrete actions, based in fact, and presented politely, it might even make a useful point. But to make negative statements about a whole nation is absurd. It is a very diverse place.
And to suggest that Great Britian is all that much better made me laugh, then feel a little sick. It is always easier to blame someone else, eh.
Nice way to derail a thread guys.
EDITED_BY: BansheeCat (1167425396)
you know, the American bashing that occurs on this forum really is insulting and ridiculous. Their leadership is not representative of all the citizens of the USA. Many American citizens are vigorously working to change the electoral system , change the leader, change the foreign policies etc etc. Many amazing generous skilled people,, and ideas, contributing to the world are from the USA. When you make huge inaccurate generalizations you negate or ignore all their efforts, the efforts of a massive , significant amount of people.
You can have an opinion, and are free to express it. When it is an opinion regarding an individual and concrete actions, based in fact, and presented politely, it might even make a useful point. But to make negative statements about a whole nation is absurd. It is a very diverse place.
And to suggest that Great Britian is all that much better made me laugh, then feel a little sick. It is always easier to blame someone else, eh.
Nice way to derail a thread guys.
EDITED_BY: BansheeCat (1167425396)
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
Carpal \'Tunnel
7,193 posts
Location: in the trees
7,193 posts
Location: in the trees
Posted:
oil, petro chemicals. the TRUE reason governments suppress the cultivation of hemp.
they say it's weed that will mess up the minds of the population but ANYBODY can tell the difference between hemp and marijuana.
from hemp you can obtain fuel, clothing and other sources of materials but the car company's, the fuel company's and governments across the globe suppress this, as they have bought up copyrights, patents etc to non fossil fuled transport ideas over the years and buryed them.
OPEN YOU BLOODY EYES PEOPLE!!!!!!!!
do NOT become part of society machine, part of the process, part of the ideal BABYLON wants you to be.
open your eyes, start to think and realize capitalism is not the way forward!!!
you can shun me, think i am a fool, but you follow the laws of modern society and live your life according to THEIR rules...............make your own rules, live your own life..................... LIVE not exist
oil, petro chemicals. the TRUE reason governments suppress the cultivation of hemp.
they say it's weed that will mess up the minds of the population but ANYBODY can tell the difference between hemp and marijuana.
from hemp you can obtain fuel, clothing and other sources of materials but the car company's, the fuel company's and governments across the globe suppress this, as they have bought up copyrights, patents etc to non fossil fuled transport ideas over the years and buryed them.
OPEN YOU BLOODY EYES PEOPLE!!!!!!!!
do NOT become part of society machine, part of the process, part of the ideal BABYLON wants you to be.
open your eyes, start to think and realize capitalism is not the way forward!!!
you can shun me, think i am a fool, but you follow the laws of modern society and live your life according to THEIR rules...............make your own rules, live your own life..................... LIVE not exist
SILVER Member
member
151 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom
member
151 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posted:
So what you're saying is that there's no significant difference in the level of political awareness / dissent in the two countries? Is that why the anti-war demonstrations in the US were tiny, probably the smallest in the western world, whereas those in the UK were the biggest?
Written by: dream
Some Yanks love their inept leader. Some hate him. Same as the UK is with Bliar...
So what you're saying is that there's no significant difference in the level of political awareness / dissent in the two countries? Is that why the anti-war demonstrations in the US were tiny, probably the smallest in the western world, whereas those in the UK were the biggest?
SILVER Member
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
Posted:
???
Before voicing your ill informed xenophobic/patriotic views, which end up bordering on outright racism, perhaps spending 5 minutes finding out that your prejudices are just that... unfounded prejudices. As ever, rather than make a statement supported by evidence or reason you make a sweeping statement based on little but your obvious hatred for a entire nation of people...
I'll concentrate on the protests of Febuary 15th 2003 - the major day of worldwide action against the Iraq war which saw between eight and thirty million people worldwide participate in protests against the pending US/UK/Coallition of the willing invasion.
First your erroneous claim that the protest in the UK was the biggest... The Stop the War Coalition organised march had (according to the Police) 750 000 demonstrators. While STC claimed three times as many people were on the march this seems an overestimate - an estimate of between 1 - 1.5 million people feels about right (I went).
By contrast the protest in Rome topped the 3 million mark and was listed in the Guiness Book of World Records 2004 nas the largest ever anti war demonstration. Only blind nationalism allied to a disregard to historical accuracy could allow you to claim that the UK held the biggest anti Iraq war demo as evidence of some kind of cultural superiority.
As for the demos in the US being the smallest...
Unlike the UK, which is geographically a pretty small place, the US is a pretty big place. Holding a single centralised demonstration would be massively exclusive (not to mention environmentally destructive). Resultantly there were smaller, localised protests in cities all over the US. CBS reported there were demos in over 150 cities, the Worldwide Socialist Web Site reported on protests in 225 cities. The biggest of these demos are belived to be New York: 300 000 - 400 000, San Francisco: 200 000, Seattle: 50 000, LA: 50 000 - 60 000, Chicago 10 000... So a median estimate of the 5 biggest US protests yields about 675 000 protestors - without attempting to estimate the numbers on the other 220 demonstrations.
By contrast, Mexico had 10 000 protestors, Canada had less than 200 000, The Czech Republic had about 1000, Denmark had 20 - 30 000, and Germany had 300 - 500 000.
Thus to claim the US had a tiny anti-war movement, probably the smallest the in the western world is also palpably not true.
What I'm saying is that making sweeping staements which homogenize the political viewpoint of 300 million people is idiotic and offensive. Not only that but it serves to undermine the actions of those who do struggle to change their systems of government.
There are parts of the states which are hugely pro Bush, and parts of the UK that are massively pro-Blair. There are also sections of both societies that hate their political leadership.
Interestingly, whereas the US recently voted in the Democrats to both the Senate and Congress, the UK is still governed by the party that took us to war. And as for political dissent, The Seattle WTO protests in 1999 saw numbers estimated between 40 - 100 000. That compares to the Gleneagles G8 protests of 10 000. The scale, success and infamy of the US dissent absolutley dwarfs that of the UK's.
Equally, the US has produced globally reknowned anti-capitalist/war authors such as Chomsky, Naomi Klein and Howard Zinn, films such as the Corporation, the Fourth World War and Farenheit 9-11, activist groups such as the Yes Men and Adbusters, bands such as Leftover Crack, Against Me and the Dead Kennedys... The list could go on and on and on...
We should be celebrating and supporting the culture of anticapitalist/antiwar resistance in the US, not claiming it doesn't exist.
Written by: yellfire
the anti-war demonstrations in the US were tiny, probably the smallest in the western world, whereas those in the UK were the biggest
???
Before voicing your ill informed xenophobic/patriotic views, which end up bordering on outright racism, perhaps spending 5 minutes finding out that your prejudices are just that... unfounded prejudices. As ever, rather than make a statement supported by evidence or reason you make a sweeping statement based on little but your obvious hatred for a entire nation of people...
I'll concentrate on the protests of Febuary 15th 2003 - the major day of worldwide action against the Iraq war which saw between eight and thirty million people worldwide participate in protests against the pending US/UK/Coallition of the willing invasion.
First your erroneous claim that the protest in the UK was the biggest... The Stop the War Coalition organised march had (according to the Police) 750 000 demonstrators. While STC claimed three times as many people were on the march this seems an overestimate - an estimate of between 1 - 1.5 million people feels about right (I went).
By contrast the protest in Rome topped the 3 million mark and was listed in the Guiness Book of World Records 2004 nas the largest ever anti war demonstration. Only blind nationalism allied to a disregard to historical accuracy could allow you to claim that the UK held the biggest anti Iraq war demo as evidence of some kind of cultural superiority.
As for the demos in the US being the smallest...
Unlike the UK, which is geographically a pretty small place, the US is a pretty big place. Holding a single centralised demonstration would be massively exclusive (not to mention environmentally destructive). Resultantly there were smaller, localised protests in cities all over the US. CBS reported there were demos in over 150 cities, the Worldwide Socialist Web Site reported on protests in 225 cities. The biggest of these demos are belived to be New York: 300 000 - 400 000, San Francisco: 200 000, Seattle: 50 000, LA: 50 000 - 60 000, Chicago 10 000... So a median estimate of the 5 biggest US protests yields about 675 000 protestors - without attempting to estimate the numbers on the other 220 demonstrations.
By contrast, Mexico had 10 000 protestors, Canada had less than 200 000, The Czech Republic had about 1000, Denmark had 20 - 30 000, and Germany had 300 - 500 000.
Thus to claim the US had a tiny anti-war movement, probably the smallest the in the western world is also palpably not true.
Written by: yellfire
So what you're saying is that there's no significant difference in the level of political awareness / dissent in the two countries?
What I'm saying is that making sweeping staements which homogenize the political viewpoint of 300 million people is idiotic and offensive. Not only that but it serves to undermine the actions of those who do struggle to change their systems of government.
There are parts of the states which are hugely pro Bush, and parts of the UK that are massively pro-Blair. There are also sections of both societies that hate their political leadership.
Interestingly, whereas the US recently voted in the Democrats to both the Senate and Congress, the UK is still governed by the party that took us to war. And as for political dissent, The Seattle WTO protests in 1999 saw numbers estimated between 40 - 100 000. That compares to the Gleneagles G8 protests of 10 000. The scale, success and infamy of the US dissent absolutley dwarfs that of the UK's.
Equally, the US has produced globally reknowned anti-capitalist/war authors such as Chomsky, Naomi Klein and Howard Zinn, films such as the Corporation, the Fourth World War and Farenheit 9-11, activist groups such as the Yes Men and Adbusters, bands such as Leftover Crack, Against Me and the Dead Kennedys... The list could go on and on and on...
We should be celebrating and supporting the culture of anticapitalist/antiwar resistance in the US, not claiming it doesn't exist.
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
look you can not like bush and point out all the things he did wrong, but the personal attacks...come on...we don't allow personal attacks on hop people
if you are going to say something about bush at least make an intelligent sounding point...like his family is an oil family and this is a ploy to get cheaper oil...this would further the discussion...calling him and those who support him American idiots does not
i do not believe in everything he says or does, but i will always treat ANYONE with the respect i would like to be treated with
look you can not like bush and point out all the things he did wrong, but the personal attacks...come on...we don't allow personal attacks on hop people
if you are going to say something about bush at least make an intelligent sounding point...like his family is an oil family and this is a ploy to get cheaper oil...this would further the discussion...calling him and those who support him American idiots does not
i do not believe in everything he says or does, but i will always treat ANYONE with the respect i would like to be treated with
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
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