Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > twist, tangles and understanding hyperloops
Login/Join to ParticipateBRONZE Member
Me
607 posts
Location: London/Bristol, United Kingdom
Me
607 posts
Location: London/Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
last weekend I went down to visit matt which finally inspired me to sit down and figure out hyperloops (something i've been meaning to do for a good few years). The story starts with a maths lecher back in my first year about twist and tangles this was well b4 i came across any hyperloops so promptly forgot it all and it's take me till now to go back and refigure it out.
I should probably say that even though it's based on maths I’ve tried to explain it so that it’s not to mathematical (probably just be my english skills which confuse you more).
the fundamentals are that there’s two type of knot a twist and a tangle. All poiest prefer twists cos if your poi are twisted up (with no tangles) then all you need to do is pull the handles apart and the poi spin round and untwist themselves. tangles on the other hand are more annoying to tangle or untangle your poi you need to jump the head of the poi over the knot (which quite often goes wrong and you end up make a even bigger knot).
right any questions? no, i'll carry on then
rule 1 you can only start a knot with a twist
rule 2 you can't untwist a tangle or untangle a twist.
rule 3 a untwist will only cancel out a twist if there is no tangles between them and a untangle will only cancel out a tangle if there is no twists between them.
a good example of this is
twist, tangle, untangle, untwist will come out.
but
twist, tangle, untwist, untangle won't come out.
right that’s all the maths out the way now it only needs to be applied to hyperloops
airwraps:
simplest to explain they consist of 2 twists followed by 2 untwists
buzzsaw hyperloops:
for simplicity say we start on the right side of the body. All the beat where the poi are on the right side (b4 they comes into the central buzzsaw) are twists, the central buzzsaw beat then go tangle, untangle, tangle, untangle... (this is why you must have an even number of central beats) then when you take them out on the left side all the beats are untwists.
the most basic buzzsaw hyperloop is twist, tangle, untangle, untwist.
also possible is doing extra central beats- twist, tangle, untangle, tangle, untangle, untwist
doing extra outside beats- twist, twist, tangle, untangle, untwist, untwist
or my latest favoritest move 1 right side, 1 central, 2 left side, 2 right side, 1 central, 1 left side - twist, tangle, untwist, untwist, twist, twist, untangle, untwist.
turning with buzzsaw hyperloops:
when doing the central beats of a buzzsaw hyperloops you can turn 180 so you doing a backwards buzzsaw hyperloop this turns the tangling poi into the untangling poi and now the left side adds twist and right side takes them off. if you want to come out facing this direction you must do this turn after an even number of central beats otherwise you get something like this - twist, tangle, untangle, tangle, (turn) tangle, untangle... and the tangle b4 the turn won't come out.
the only people i've seen doing this are matt, psi, and oli of which matt and psi add an extra right side beat b4/as they turn so it looks like- twist, tangle, untangle, twist (turn) untangle, tangle, untwist, untwist. where as oli I think does the more purest- twist, tangle, untangle, (turn) untangle, tangle, untwist
right that all i can be bother to write up now i'll sort out all the butterfly crap tomorrow and sometime in the future i'll right all the up properly with pretty pictures and am afriad alot more maths
any questions welcome
last weekend I went down to visit matt which finally inspired me to sit down and figure out hyperloops (something i've been meaning to do for a good few years). The story starts with a maths lecher back in my first year about twist and tangles this was well b4 i came across any hyperloops so promptly forgot it all and it's take me till now to go back and refigure it out.
I should probably say that even though it's based on maths I’ve tried to explain it so that it’s not to mathematical (probably just be my english skills which confuse you more).
the fundamentals are that there’s two type of knot a twist and a tangle. All poiest prefer twists cos if your poi are twisted up (with no tangles) then all you need to do is pull the handles apart and the poi spin round and untwist themselves. tangles on the other hand are more annoying to tangle or untangle your poi you need to jump the head of the poi over the knot (which quite often goes wrong and you end up make a even bigger knot).
right any questions? no, i'll carry on then
rule 1 you can only start a knot with a twist
rule 2 you can't untwist a tangle or untangle a twist.
rule 3 a untwist will only cancel out a twist if there is no tangles between them and a untangle will only cancel out a tangle if there is no twists between them.
a good example of this is
twist, tangle, untangle, untwist will come out.
but
twist, tangle, untwist, untangle won't come out.
right that’s all the maths out the way now it only needs to be applied to hyperloops
airwraps:
simplest to explain they consist of 2 twists followed by 2 untwists
buzzsaw hyperloops:
for simplicity say we start on the right side of the body. All the beat where the poi are on the right side (b4 they comes into the central buzzsaw) are twists, the central buzzsaw beat then go tangle, untangle, tangle, untangle... (this is why you must have an even number of central beats) then when you take them out on the left side all the beats are untwists.
the most basic buzzsaw hyperloop is twist, tangle, untangle, untwist.
also possible is doing extra central beats- twist, tangle, untangle, tangle, untangle, untwist
doing extra outside beats- twist, twist, tangle, untangle, untwist, untwist
or my latest favoritest move 1 right side, 1 central, 2 left side, 2 right side, 1 central, 1 left side - twist, tangle, untwist, untwist, twist, twist, untangle, untwist.
turning with buzzsaw hyperloops:
when doing the central beats of a buzzsaw hyperloops you can turn 180 so you doing a backwards buzzsaw hyperloop this turns the tangling poi into the untangling poi and now the left side adds twist and right side takes them off. if you want to come out facing this direction you must do this turn after an even number of central beats otherwise you get something like this - twist, tangle, untangle, tangle, (turn) tangle, untangle... and the tangle b4 the turn won't come out.
the only people i've seen doing this are matt, psi, and oli of which matt and psi add an extra right side beat b4/as they turn so it looks like- twist, tangle, untangle, twist (turn) untangle, tangle, untwist, untwist. where as oli I think does the more purest- twist, tangle, untangle, (turn) untangle, tangle, untwist
right that all i can be bother to write up now i'll sort out all the butterfly crap tomorrow and sometime in the future i'll right all the up properly with pretty pictures and am afriad alot more maths
any questions welcome
Maybe I should change this too something abit nicer, humm no I still think your all C
t
annoying boy
160 posts
Location: Sweden
160 posts
Location: Sweden
Posted:
nice work.... i havn't learnd the airwraps/hyperloops yet, but this pushes me one step closer.
i've been wondering on how to those, and what you write confirms my thoughts....
happy spinning!
nice work.... i havn't learnd the airwraps/hyperloops yet, but this pushes me one step closer.
i've been wondering on how to those, and what you write confirms my thoughts....
happy spinning!
fire is just light and heat.
it's you friend!
veteran
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK
Posted:
That matches up with my vague thoughts on the matter and how I do my turning hyperloops
Also I think going into a hyperloop underarm is a tangle, not a twist. So you can do an hyperloop which is tangle, untangle and passes underneath one arm.
That matches up with my vague thoughts on the matter and how I do my turning hyperloops
Also I think going into a hyperloop underarm is a tangle, not a twist. So you can do an hyperloop which is tangle, untangle and passes underneath one arm.
"Moo," said the happy cow.
enthusiast
384 posts
Location: West LA
384 posts
Location: West LA
Posted:
... so an inverted tangle is a twist ?!?
... so an inverted tangle is a twist ?!?
To learn - read. To know - write. To master - teach . . .
GOLD Member
addict
625 posts
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand
addict
625 posts
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand
Posted:
That is the best multi beat description i have seen.
I should mention that there are exceptions to all the above rules, because you can keep the chains twisted and tangled and they dont have to untangle. There are other ways of bouncing and changing the direction. Example multi bt buzzsaw tangle. (thats when it has both a twist and a tangle and it can still rotate with out un-twisting) and it allows you to change from say buzzhyp into b-fly hyp.
Nice job though man, real easy to understand. ty
That is the best multi beat description i have seen.
I should mention that there are exceptions to all the above rules, because you can keep the chains twisted and tangled and they dont have to untangle. There are other ways of bouncing and changing the direction. Example multi bt buzzsaw tangle. (thats when it has both a twist and a tangle and it can still rotate with out un-twisting) and it allows you to change from say buzzhyp into b-fly hyp.
Nice job though man, real easy to understand. ty
GOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
Posted:
That's a great description Tim, nice one!
That's a great description Tim, nice one!
Let's relight this forum 
BRONZE Member
Me
607 posts
Location: London/Bristol, United Kingdom
Me
607 posts
Location: London/Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
was just thinking this give a nice way to define the difference between hyperloops and airwarps
hyperloops- contain both twist and tangles
airwarps- contain only twist
Another thing I forgot to mention yesterday is that am counting a hyperloop beat when the poi heads past through the celling plane level with the hands (as this is when the twist or tangle is added to the knot).
butterfly hyperloops:
This is going to be abit harder cos there no standard way of doing these so I’ll describe way I do them and how twist and tangle apply to them. Although I’ve got a feeling that the other variations will turn out to have the same description in term of twist and tangles.
So from TTN ( L H clockwise, R H anticlockwise) the point just after both poi reach the top of the circle and the right hand inside (so the poi form an X in the wall plane above the hands) push the right hand away from the body so the middle of the poi collide this is the first twist that all knots but start with. Next the poi which is going clockwise falls between the arms, this is a tangle. Here you are in a BHB-, butterfly hyperloop buzzsaw, (R H outside, L H inside) and each extra beat in this position will add a tangle. From here you turn the BHB so the R H’s inside and the L H’s outside, now each beat is an untangle when you have no more tangle left push your R H out and this does the necessary untwists.
So the easiest butterfly hyperloop of this kind is- twist, tangle, untangle, untwist
And adding few beat on each side looks like this- twist, tangle, tangle, tangle, untangle, untangle, untangle, untwist
Butterfly hyperloops with extra outside beats:
When you turn the BHB from R H outside, L H inside to R H inside, L H outside you can put extra beat in this turn where both poi spin outside (or inside for that matter) the arms this adds no extra twist or tangles so you can do as many as you want (watch Dunc if you want to see in one hand and done well!)
fake hyperloops (a buzzsaw hyperloop without any center beats):
these aren’t really fake but feel it cos they only consist of a twist and a untwist
warps and changing from buzzsaw to butterfly hyperloop:
This is just a case of combining the above information but an example to keep you going is- start a buzzsaw hyperloop warp 1 poi after an odd number of beat, do one beat as you are (in a BHB with R H outside and L H inside) then turn to R H inside, L H outside and do two beats then push your R H forward and magic it come out! (you have very careful with how the poi cross after the wrap but I’ll let you figure that out)
Like all good mathematics there homework so your homework is to go away and use this way of looking at things to invent a new hyperloop.
was just thinking this give a nice way to define the difference between hyperloops and airwarps
hyperloops- contain both twist and tangles
airwarps- contain only twist
Another thing I forgot to mention yesterday is that am counting a hyperloop beat when the poi heads past through the celling plane level with the hands (as this is when the twist or tangle is added to the knot).
butterfly hyperloops:
This is going to be abit harder cos there no standard way of doing these so I’ll describe way I do them and how twist and tangle apply to them. Although I’ve got a feeling that the other variations will turn out to have the same description in term of twist and tangles.
So from TTN ( L H clockwise, R H anticlockwise) the point just after both poi reach the top of the circle and the right hand inside (so the poi form an X in the wall plane above the hands) push the right hand away from the body so the middle of the poi collide this is the first twist that all knots but start with. Next the poi which is going clockwise falls between the arms, this is a tangle. Here you are in a BHB-, butterfly hyperloop buzzsaw, (R H outside, L H inside) and each extra beat in this position will add a tangle. From here you turn the BHB so the R H’s inside and the L H’s outside, now each beat is an untangle when you have no more tangle left push your R H out and this does the necessary untwists.
So the easiest butterfly hyperloop of this kind is- twist, tangle, untangle, untwist
And adding few beat on each side looks like this- twist, tangle, tangle, tangle, untangle, untangle, untangle, untwist
Butterfly hyperloops with extra outside beats:
When you turn the BHB from R H outside, L H inside to R H inside, L H outside you can put extra beat in this turn where both poi spin outside (or inside for that matter) the arms this adds no extra twist or tangles so you can do as many as you want (watch Dunc if you want to see in one hand and done well!)
fake hyperloops (a buzzsaw hyperloop without any center beats):
these aren’t really fake but feel it cos they only consist of a twist and a untwist
warps and changing from buzzsaw to butterfly hyperloop:
This is just a case of combining the above information but an example to keep you going is- start a buzzsaw hyperloop warp 1 poi after an odd number of beat, do one beat as you are (in a BHB with R H outside and L H inside) then turn to R H inside, L H outside and do two beats then push your R H forward and magic it come out! (you have very careful with how the poi cross after the wrap but I’ll let you figure that out)
Like all good mathematics there homework so your homework is to go away and use this way of looking at things to invent a new hyperloop.
Maybe I should change this too something abit nicer, humm no I still think your all Ct
BRONZE Member
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Posted:
Nice description.
I never thought about the "maths" behind hyperloops.
Nice description.
I never thought about the "maths" behind hyperloops.
Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...
BRONZE Member
Me
607 posts
Location: London/Bristol, United Kingdom
Me
607 posts
Location: London/Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
afew replies
spiralx - if the under arm hyperloop are what am thnking of then they have exactly the same twists and tangle as normal ones. The moment the to poi cross then that the starting twist.
poiboxII -, twist and tangles are competly different objects.
Dragon7- the rules
have no exceptions but don't conern themself with the poi having to unknot at the end! (it's probably personal taste that's made me more interested in the hyerloop that do unknot)
right my head hurts less think more spinning is needed
afew replies
spiralx - if the under arm hyperloop are what am thnking of then they have exactly the same twists and tangle as normal ones. The moment the to poi cross then that the starting twist.
poiboxII -
Written by:speaking matmaticlly (which am afraid is all i can doing being a mathematistion) an inverted tangle is an untangle
so an inverted tangle is a twist ?!?
, twist and tangles are competly different objects.Dragon7- the rules
Written by:
rule 1 you can only start a knot with a twist
rule 2 you can't untwist a tangle or untangle a twist.
rule 3 a untwist will only cancel out a twist if there is no tangles between them and a untangle will only cancel out a tangle if there is no twists between them.
have no exceptions but don't conern themself with the poi having to unknot at the end! (it's probably personal taste that's made me more interested in the hyerloop that do unknot
)right my head hurts less think more spinning is needed
Maybe I should change this too something abit nicer, humm no I still think your all Ct
BRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Posted:
just thought I'd add since I've been the person talking twist, tangles, and knots for so long...
this is NOT how I describe them...
airwraps can ONLY TANGLE...
hyperloops can TWIST or TANGLE
Knots are made from the two...
you've been talking with matt... check the poidia..
twists are aptly named I think... because they twist on one side and untwist on the other.. like the way a weave twists up beats one side and then untwists on the other.. (then retwists and untwists back on the original side.)
tangles are that because thats all they do.. they perpetually tangle infinitely momentum pending..
I'm glad everyone understands.. but this is going to yield a LOT of confusion..
not that your definitions are wrong.. just the terms.. you have them flipped..
PS.. Knots are not twists, or tanlges, whatever... Knots involve a twist and a tanlge together.. you can knot anything from basic, to square hitch, to stupid other combinations.. knots are not like some family under whihc can either be a twist or a tangle..
pps. Arashi take your damn torch back.... I don't want to sound like you..
EDITED_BY: Rev (1102527054)
just thought I'd add since I've been the person talking twist, tangles, and knots for so long...
this is NOT how I describe them...
airwraps can ONLY TANGLE...
hyperloops can TWIST or TANGLE
Knots are made from the two...
you've been talking with matt... check the poidia..
twists are aptly named I think... because they twist on one side and untwist on the other.. like the way a weave twists up beats one side and then untwists on the other.. (then retwists and untwists back on the original side.)
tangles are that because thats all they do.. they perpetually tangle infinitely momentum pending..
I'm glad everyone understands.. but this is going to yield a LOT of confusion..
not that your definitions are wrong.. just the terms.. you have them flipped..
PS.. Knots are not twists, or tanlges, whatever... Knots involve a twist and a tanlge together.. you can knot anything from basic, to square hitch, to stupid other combinations.. knots are not like some family under whihc can either be a twist or a tangle..
pps. Arashi take your damn torch back.... I don't want to sound like you..
EDITED_BY: Rev (1102527054)
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
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"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
BRONZE Member
Me
607 posts
Location: London/Bristol, United Kingdom
Me
607 posts
Location: London/Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
Rev sorry if i've been stepping on you toes with the terminlogy, by reson for usings twists and tangles in the way i have comes from my vauge memory of the maths leacher i went to years ago which is what is thread is based on. It sounds like we agree on what a twist is at least as far as non-butterfly hyperloops but your tangle definiton is quite different. As for Knots i didn't define them above but refered to as a general term for anything where the poi are twisted or tangled (under the mathmatical definiton of twists and tangles).
the definition of airwaps and hyperloops so just a thought and is quite a nice way of distishing two different type of the same move.
in defence of the mathematical definitions of twists and tangles i would say that it allows you to calculate whats happening to the knot just by considering the twists and tangles which makes it easy to understand and invent new hyperloops and also to can relate it to butterfly hyperloops easy and thus figure out nice way to go between them.
p.s. am far more use to the staff forum where there are pretty much no proper names for anything
Rev sorry if i've been stepping on you toes with the terminlogy, by reson for usings twists and tangles in the way i have comes from my vauge memory of the maths leacher i went to years ago which is what is thread is based on. It sounds like we agree on what a twist is at least as far as non-butterfly hyperloops but your tangle definiton is quite different. As for Knots i didn't define them above but refered to as a general term for anything where the poi are twisted or tangled (under the mathmatical definiton of twists and tangles).
the definition of airwaps and hyperloops so just a thought and is quite a nice way of distishing two different type of the same move.
in defence of the mathematical definitions of twists and tangles i would say that it allows you to calculate whats happening to the knot just by considering the twists and tangles which makes it easy to understand and invent new hyperloops and also to can relate it to butterfly hyperloops easy and thus figure out nice way to go between them.
p.s. am far more use to the staff forum where there are pretty much no proper names for anything
Maybe I should change this too something abit nicer, humm no I still think your all Ct
GOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
Posted:
I think the medal drawer is over there *points*
Written by: Rev
just thought I'd add since I've been the person talking twist, tangles, and knots for so long...
I think the medal drawer is over there *points*
Let's relight this forum
GOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland
Posted:
long live the staff forum
i like this thread though.
normally i dont understand a thing in this place...
long live the staff forum
i like this thread though.
normally i dont understand a thing in this place...
Love is the law.
BRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Posted:
:dons his damnit-I'm-starting-to-sound-like-arashi-hat
well its not much different on my end T&B.. trust me... check out the poidia on spherc... it will all make sense..
your terms are just backwards...
kinda..
twist results in a cone or fishtail design... because the poi heads are to the outside of the tangle.. making and 'x' pattern with the poi heads on the top... and the hands on the bottom.. the poi continue spinning in the plane their in.. twisting up.. if taken to another reflective plane.. their motion (like a thru-wrap or weave) cuases them to untwist... and if held long enough... they will retwist back up after untwisting, (again just like a weave)
and as far as math goes.. take a bread tie... twist it.. what happens? the circle (ie bottom of the 'x' stays straight while the twisted ends of the bread tie keep spiraling down, as the top of the 'x'.. hell imagine just twisting the top of the 'x'..
tangles result from inverted planes.. they form more of a + shape.. hands to the left and right poi spinning in the middle.. they perpetually tangle... lead poi tangling and follow poi untangling.. this is not a twisting motion.. in any respect...this can only be refer'd to as a tangle in some vague sense.. they never twist.. the spiraling of the lead poi might be seen in some way as a twist, but that doesnt account for the follow poi..and again.. you have to place this in context.. when doing a tangle.. its kinda statically there.. even when you move it.. it is technically not spiraling the string... but tangling around the other.. its just an inverted twist..
knots occur in various combinations of the two.. which is frankly exponential..
airwraps and hyperloops (I here I need to correct my previous statement) can be done with both twists and knots...)
airwraps are static.. they don't move... and if you do a twist wallplaned.. it will spin through from outer to inner exactly as the poi would in an airwrap from a tangle.. a lot of people claim to understand that latter bit... but really don't... I must ahve talked 6 months about how you could go from left to right (which is the same as outer to inner) with a tangle forming inside only and untanlging on the inside before moving back out.. hell the guy next to me just figured it out a few weeks ago.. so it took him well over a year.. and he gets to watch me..
hyperloops are dynamic.. whch is misleading.. because poi that go untangled left -> tangled buzzsaw -> untangled right have been called hyperloops.. and those tangles don't go anywhere.. but that all goes back to the confusion at the end of the paragraph above.. but that's kinda of a tough issue since you can technically get the same effect moving the poi a little further outside without resulting in a 'twist'....
anyway,.. it was bugging me that I kinda mislead things by saying only tangles could airwrap yesterday.. had to come correct that.. stared writing a booK...
&^#$%&#$%&#$ finals.. hope that helps.. later..
:dons his damnit-I'm-starting-to-sound-like-arashi-hat
well its not much different on my end T&B.. trust me... check out the poidia on spherc... it will all make sense..
your terms are just backwards...
kinda..
twist results in a cone or fishtail design... because the poi heads are to the outside of the tangle.. making and 'x' pattern with the poi heads on the top... and the hands on the bottom.. the poi continue spinning in the plane their in.. twisting up.. if taken to another reflective plane.. their motion (like a thru-wrap or weave) cuases them to untwist... and if held long enough... they will retwist back up after untwisting, (again just like a weave)
and as far as math goes.. take a bread tie... twist it.. what happens? the circle (ie bottom of the 'x' stays straight while the twisted ends of the bread tie keep spiraling down, as the top of the 'x'.. hell imagine just twisting the top of the 'x'..
tangles result from inverted planes.. they form more of a + shape.. hands to the left and right poi spinning in the middle.. they perpetually tangle... lead poi tangling and follow poi untangling.. this is not a twisting motion.. in any respect...this can only be refer'd to as a tangle in some vague sense.. they never twist.. the spiraling of the lead poi might be seen in some way as a twist, but that doesnt account for the follow poi..and again.. you have to place this in context.. when doing a tangle.. its kinda statically there.. even when you move it.. it is technically not spiraling the string... but tangling around the other.. its just an inverted twist..
knots occur in various combinations of the two.. which is frankly exponential..
airwraps and hyperloops (I here I need to correct my previous statement) can be done with both twists and knots...)
airwraps are static.. they don't move... and if you do a twist wallplaned.. it will spin through from outer to inner exactly as the poi would in an airwrap from a tangle.. a lot of people claim to understand that latter bit... but really don't... I must ahve talked 6 months about how you could go from left to right (which is the same as outer to inner) with a tangle forming inside only and untanlging on the inside before moving back out.. hell the guy next to me just figured it out a few weeks ago.. so it took him well over a year.. and he gets to watch me..
hyperloops are dynamic.. whch is misleading.. because poi that go untangled left -> tangled buzzsaw -> untangled right have been called hyperloops.. and those tangles don't go anywhere.. but that all goes back to the confusion at the end of the paragraph above.. but that's kinda of a tough issue since you can technically get the same effect moving the poi a little further outside without resulting in a 'twist'....
anyway,.. it was bugging me that I kinda mislead things by saying only tangles could airwrap yesterday.. had to come correct that.. stared writing a booK...
&^#$%&#$%&#$ finals.. hope that helps.. later..
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,638 posts
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
3,638 posts
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Posted:
I'm a bit slow
Still not getting anywhere.......
oh well
I'm a bit slow
Still not getting anywhere.......oh well
Geologists do it in the dirt................ 
PLATINUM Member
Hyperloops suck
595 posts
Location: USA
Hyperloops suck
595 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
I've been trying to wrap my head around hyperloops (specifically, reverse buzzsaw hyperloop, because it comes most naturally to me) for over 6 months now without much progress. In the last two days I've made the most progress ever, I can get get them sometimes but not others. I'm pretty sure I know what the problem is, but I really can't tell what I'm doing differently when it works and when it doesn't. I wrap on my right side, bring it inside for a beat (or what I think is a beat), and bring it out to my left. Sometimes in unwraps, other times it just wraps more and gets that ugly knot where you have to let go of your handles to untie it. Any tips for getting it to unwrap cleanly at the end there? Everything else is gravy, I just can't seem to understand why it works sometimes and not others.
I've been trying to wrap my head around hyperloops (specifically, reverse buzzsaw hyperloop, because it comes most naturally to me) for over 6 months now without much progress. In the last two days I've made the most progress ever, I can get get them sometimes but not others. I'm pretty sure I know what the problem is, but I really can't tell what I'm doing differently when it works and when it doesn't. I wrap on my right side, bring it inside for a beat (or what I think is a beat), and bring it out to my left. Sometimes in unwraps, other times it just wraps more and gets that ugly knot where you have to let go of your handles to untie it. Any tips for getting it to unwrap cleanly at the end there? Everything else is gravy, I just can't seem to understand why it works sometimes and not others.
veteran
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK
Posted:
It's just a matter of symmetry, you've got to make sure it's even on both sides. Oh, and keep the relative positions of your hands locked throughout the move - if they get closer or further apart it'll slow or speed the poi up and that'll make it a lot harder to exit.
It's just a matter of symmetry, you've got to make sure it's even on both sides. Oh, and keep the relative positions of your hands locked throughout the move - if they get closer or further apart it'll slow or speed the poi up and that'll make it a lot harder to exit.
"Moo," said the happy cow.
GOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
Posted:
That's the best advice by far for keeping them going, and probably the hardest thing to make your brain do to your hands. Once your brain has gotten used to it ho they become far far easier.
Written by: Sprialx
keep the relative positions of your hands locked throughout the move
That's the best advice by far for keeping them going, and probably the hardest thing to make your brain do to your hands. Once your brain has gotten used to it ho they become far far easier.
Let's relight this forum
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
true, but you were calling them hyperloops and airwraps and knots until me & spiralx bullied you into being less confusing
After much argument, the definitions for hyperloop and airwrap that turned up on spherculism were:
Hyperloop = the poi are linked and the point of linking (nexus) is dynamic (it moves)
Airwrap = the poi are linked and the point of linking (nexus) is static (it don't move)
which people generally seemed happy with.
T&B, did you come up with the twist/tangle/knot names indepenently of the spherculism discussions? If you did, then it's really cool how we came up with the same names
Written by: Rev
just thought I'd add since I've been the person talking twist, tangles, and knots for so long...
true, but you were calling them hyperloops and airwraps and knots until me & spiralx bullied you into being less confusing
After much argument, the definitions for hyperloop and airwrap that turned up on spherculism were:
Hyperloop = the poi are linked and the point of linking (nexus) is dynamic (it moves)
Airwrap = the poi are linked and the point of linking (nexus) is static (it don't move)
which people generally seemed happy with.
T&B, did you come up with the twist/tangle/knot names indepenently of the spherculism discussions? If you did, then it's really cool how we came up with the same names
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
BRONZE Member
Me
607 posts
Location: London/Bristol, United Kingdom
Me
607 posts
Location: London/Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
Rev- our definitions of twist and tangles are very, very, simalar I completly agree that when the poi are spinning in the same direction and the poi heads are on the outside of knot/nexus then the poi twist up and when the poi are rotating in the centre the poi tangle, then untangle, then tangle... the only difference i can see in our definitions is in your definitions the poi are spinning in my it just how you add to or take away from a knot and then applying that to hyperloops which I belive make it easier to apply them to butterfly hyperloops as well. Also i think you sometime refer to the the knot are a tangle sometime which confuses me (am a bit simple like that).
FNF- will explain it to you next time we meet it's far simpler when i've got poi in my hand.
Millennium- you'll need to have two central beat i.e. two poi head fall between your hands. hope that helps.
Rev- our definitions of twist and tangles are very, very, simalar I completly agree that when the poi are spinning in the same direction and the poi heads are on the outside of knot/nexus then the poi twist up and when the poi are rotating in the centre the poi tangle, then untangle, then tangle... the only difference i can see in our definitions is in your definitions the poi are spinning in my it just how you add to or take away from a knot and then applying that to hyperloops which I belive make it easier to apply them to butterfly hyperloops as well. Also i think you sometime refer to the the knot are a tangle sometime which confuses me (am a bit simple like that).
FNF- will explain it to you next time we meet it's far simpler when i've got poi in my hand.
Millennium- you'll need to have two central beat i.e. two poi head fall between your hands. hope that helps.
Maybe I should change this too something abit nicer, humm no I still think your all Ct
GOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
Posted:
FNF can do it far better than she's letting on
FNF can do it far better than she's letting on
Let's relight this forum
DIAMOND Member
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
has he been at it again...?
has he been at it again...?
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
BRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Posted:
this is my biggest disagreement... if you learn them with your hands still it -is- easier to pick up BUT you will limit yourself incredibly, and eventually have to resort to learning them all over again from scratch when you try to learn them with your hands constantly moving.. and by constantly moving I dont mean like an isolating.. I mean moving in any direction that you wish to move them..
the most important thing when it comes to linking poi in any way is to remember that in linking them you are basically relenquishing control of the poi in some respects.. they will spin on their own (twisting, tangling, knotting) and you manipulate the string about which they twist tangle or knot.. ie form the nexus to the handles..
think of it like a gyrascope...
oh T&B I said from the beginning they were the same.. just the terms are flipped..
Simian- coming up with those terms isnt really difficult when you think of it.. we came to those rather easily when searching for adequate terms because they perfectly describe themotion..
I wish I would have though about X and + earlier.. it would have been much easier to just say that you can go from twist -> tanlge (knot) -> untwist like this..
Code:
p h p h p h p h p
= -> X ->h+h -> X -> =
p h p h p h p h p
seperate-> twist-> tangle (knot)-> untwist -> seperate
to which you can hold it there and it will twist back up and go back across..
just like a weave.. well this example more like an inverted weave, but if you remove the tangle in the middle it would be JUST like a weave..
anyway.. I'm confusing people again.. i'll stop...
gotta go turn in a 12 pg paper anyway..
Written by: DuncWritten by: Sprialx
keep the relative positions of your hands locked throughout the move
That's the best advice by far for keeping them going, and probably the hardest thing to make your brain do to your hands. Once your brain has gotten used to it ho they become far far easier.
this is my biggest disagreement... if you learn them with your hands still it -is- easier to pick up BUT you will limit yourself incredibly, and eventually have to resort to learning them all over again from scratch when you try to learn them with your hands constantly moving.. and by constantly moving I dont mean like an isolating.. I mean moving in any direction that you wish to move them..
the most important thing when it comes to linking poi in any way is to remember that in linking them you are basically relenquishing control of the poi in some respects.. they will spin on their own (twisting, tangling, knotting) and you manipulate the string about which they twist tangle or knot.. ie form the nexus to the handles..
think of it like a gyrascope...
oh T&B I said from the beginning they were the same.. just the terms are flipped..
Simian- coming up with those terms isnt really difficult when you think of it.. we came to those rather easily when searching for adequate terms because they perfectly describe themotion..
I wish I would have though about X and + earlier.. it would have been much easier to just say that you can go from twist -> tanlge (knot) -> untwist like this..
Code:
p h p h p h p h p
= -> X ->h+h -> X -> =
p h p h p h p h p
seperate-> twist-> tangle (knot)-> untwist -> seperate
to which you can hold it there and it will twist back up and go back across..
just like a weave.. well this example more like an inverted weave, but if you remove the tangle in the middle it would be JUST like a weave..
anyway.. I'm confusing people again.. i'll stop...
gotta go turn in a 12 pg paper anyway..
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
SILVER Member
slack rating - 9.5
2,216 posts
Location: Suburbiton, Yoo-Kay, United Kingdom
slack rating - 9.5
2,216 posts
Location: Suburbiton, Yoo-Kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
hmm... it's a shame about the confusion of terms but i think tim's works better if you apply it to what twists and tangles intrinsically are. what's already on spherc is good but that explanation is really clear... it's the first one that's made full sense to me!
hmm... it's a shame about the confusion of terms but i think tim's works better if you apply it to what twists and tangles intrinsically are. what's already on spherc is good but that explanation is really clear... it's the first one that's made full sense to me!
It is our fantasies that make us real. Without our fantasies we're just a blank monkey' - Terry Pratchett
BRONZE Member
Me
607 posts
Location: London/Bristol, United Kingdom
Me
607 posts
Location: London/Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
Chris glad it made sense to you it's sertonlly made a huge difference to my poiing recently
Had a nice way to model this all numercally but when writting it up realised that is doesn't work model ar well will try and sort it out for next time...
also something i wrote earlier about butterfly hyperloops i've found isn't quite right. basicly i said that each beat of a butterfly buzzsaw hyperloop adds a tangle which it does but it can also add or minus a twist at the same time by how the poi head cross each other. this make life far hard if you try to add these twist so would advise people to steer clear of them but they can make life easier when wrapping from butterfly hyerloop to normal hyperloops (or at least explain why they work).
on the airwrap hyperloop definition, my definition is just an alternative definition which makes a diiferent family of move into airwrap which intuitively make more sense (at least to me) after all under the current definition if you do your normal buzzsaw hyperloop but infront of the body (or even if you isolate the knot) it becomes a airwar and if you do a airwarp above the head (moveing the knot from behind your head to infront to untiwist) it becomes a hyperloop
Chris glad it made sense to you it's sertonlly made a huge difference to my poiing recently
Had a nice way to model this all numercally but when writting it up realised that is doesn't work model ar well will try and sort it out for next time...
also something i wrote earlier about butterfly hyperloops i've found isn't quite right. basicly i said that each beat of a butterfly buzzsaw hyperloop adds a tangle which it does but it can also add or minus a twist at the same time by how the poi head cross each other. this make life far hard if you try to add these twist so would advise people to steer clear of them but they can make life easier when wrapping from butterfly hyerloop to normal hyperloops (or at least explain why they work).
on the airwrap hyperloop definition, my definition is just an alternative definition which makes a diiferent family of move into airwrap which intuitively make more sense (at least to me) after all under the current definition if you do your normal buzzsaw hyperloop but infront of the body (or even if you isolate the knot) it becomes a airwar and if you do a airwarp above the head (moveing the knot from behind your head to infront to untiwist) it becomes a hyperloop
Maybe I should change this too something abit nicer, humm no I still think your all Ct
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
kinda
Well yes, because the airwrap\hyperloop part of the description is there describing the movement of the tangle (ie. whether it crosses the plane of the body or not), rather than simply duplicating the meanings of the terms twist and tangle.
Ah, whatever
i don't reckon the terms airwrap or hyperloop will useful other than as vague terms. They were vague terms when they originated, and trying to make them technical terms now would be pretty tricky.
i beleive that a 'hyperloop' was originally meant to mean: a simple twist-untwist from one side of wheel plane to the other with a half rotation of isolation during the tangle.
tho i may be wrong...
kinda
Written by: T&B
on the airwrap hyperloop definition, my definition is just an alternative definition which makes a diiferent family of move into airwrap which intuitively make more sense (at least to me) after all under the current definition if you do your normal buzzsaw hyperloop but infront of the body (or even if you isolate the knot) it becomes a airwar and if you do a airwarp above the head (moveing the knot from behind your head to infront to untiwist) it becomes a hyperloop
Well yes, because the airwrap\hyperloop part of the description is there describing the movement of the tangle (ie. whether it crosses the plane of the body or not), rather than simply duplicating the meanings of the terms twist and tangle.
Ah, whatever
i don't reckon the terms airwrap or hyperloop will useful other than as vague terms. They were vague terms when they originated, and trying to make them technical terms now would be pretty tricky.i beleive that a 'hyperloop' was originally meant to mean: a simple twist-untwist from one side of wheel plane to the other with a half rotation of isolation during the tangle.
tho i may be wrong...
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
GOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
Posted:
This is where I disagree, it doesn't limit you at all so long as you keep progressing, infact it makes it easier and quicker to learn IMO. Learning the "gyroscope" principles first would make it massively difficult for the muscles to progress.
On the subject of butterfloops, theres a point where you can infinately do them and the are in a constant state of tangle, yet not tagling/twisting/untangling/untwisting and more. How to describe this I don't know...perma tangle??!
And would I be right to say butterfloops only have tangles and no twists?
Oh and it's possible to go into a weird tangled weave that looks awesome from here too.
Written by: Dubb
hmm... it's a shame about the confusion of terms but i think tim's works better if you apply it to what twists and tangles intrinsically are. what's already on spherc is good but that explanation is really clear... it's the first one that's made full sense to me!
Written by: rev
if you learn them with your hands still it -is- easier to pick up BUT you will limit yourself incredibly, and eventually have to resort to learning them all over again from scratch when you try to learn them with your hands constantly moving
This is where I disagree, it doesn't limit you at all so long as you keep progressing, infact it makes it easier and quicker to learn IMO. Learning the "gyroscope" principles first would make it massively difficult for the muscles to progress.
On the subject of butterfloops, theres a point where you can infinately do them and the are in a constant state of tangle, yet not tagling/twisting/untangling/untwisting and more. How to describe this I don't know...perma tangle??!
And would I be right to say butterfloops only have tangles and no twists?
Oh and it's possible to go into a weird tangled weave that looks awesome from here too.
Let's relight this forum
veteran
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK
Posted:
The middle bit of a butterfly hyperloop is tangled just the same as a buzzsaw hyperloop - the only difference is in the direction of the poi. But yes, you go straight into this bit without any outside tangling at all. Of course you can do the same with buzzsaw hyperloops starting from an isolated buzzsaw with some timing trickery...
The middle bit of a butterfly hyperloop is tangled just the same as a buzzsaw hyperloop - the only difference is in the direction of the poi. But yes, you go straight into this bit without any outside tangling at all. Of course you can do the same with buzzsaw hyperloops starting from an isolated buzzsaw with some timing trickery...
"Moo," said the happy cow.
BRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Posted:
learning with your hands still gets you one mechanic but it doesnt transfer AT ALL to the gyrascope mechanic.. I had to relearn EVERYTHING when learning to move with my poi, and have to go bacfk and relearn things when I try to keep my hands static..
the counter balance that occurs when moving versus being static change the whole dynamic.. no matter how much you get used to constant equal tension, it does not prepare you for the changes you have to make to keep balance as the tension shifts stronger or weaker on different axi as you move them..
furthermore the most important reason to learn the gyrascope method is so that you can get control of all 4 points.. with static hands you have control over nothing.. you move the poi as one unit maintaining the delicate balance that makes it spin on its own.. however once you learn to move, you can then push the poi (amoungst other things) that allow you control over each individual point, and thus do things like shift from horizontal to vertical, or from vert to perpendicular vert, etc..
you wont get vary far with knots if you dont' learn how to control and manipulate the individual poi.. and you don't get ANY of those skills, not even the slightest bit, from static hands..
learning with your hands still gets you one mechanic but it doesnt transfer AT ALL to the gyrascope mechanic.. I had to relearn EVERYTHING when learning to move with my poi, and have to go bacfk and relearn things when I try to keep my hands static..
the counter balance that occurs when moving versus being static change the whole dynamic.. no matter how much you get used to constant equal tension, it does not prepare you for the changes you have to make to keep balance as the tension shifts stronger or weaker on different axi as you move them..
furthermore the most important reason to learn the gyrascope method is so that you can get control of all 4 points.. with static hands you have control over nothing.. you move the poi as one unit maintaining the delicate balance that makes it spin on its own.. however once you learn to move, you can then push the poi (amoungst other things) that allow you control over each individual point, and thus do things like shift from horizontal to vertical, or from vert to perpendicular vert, etc..
you wont get vary far with knots if you dont' learn how to control and manipulate the individual poi.. and you don't get ANY of those skills, not even the slightest bit, from static hands..
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
GOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
Posted:
you mean control over all 5 points yeah?
And you really found it so hard to progress? Guess it's just different floats for differents boats......
Spiral, I think we may by on slightly different wave lengths here, the infinate section of a butterfloop isn't the same as a buzzloop (well not mine anyway) just very similar, as the handles share one plane and the poi share a parallel plane next to them so one string has an extra tangle so they share sides. Almost like a single string half twist I guess......or am I just not thinkin of it right
Sorry for causing any confusion, I stand by my natural ability to be crap at explaining anything
you mean control over all 5 points yeah?
And you really found it so hard to progress? Guess it's just different floats for differents boats......
Spiral, I think we may by on slightly different wave lengths here, the infinate section of a butterfloop isn't the same as a buzzloop (well not mine anyway) just very similar, as the handles share one plane and the poi share a parallel plane next to them so one string has an extra tangle so they share sides. Almost like a single string half twist I guess......or am I just not thinkin of it right
Sorry for causing any confusion, I stand by my natural ability to be crap at explaining anything
Let's relight this forum
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