Forums > Social Chat > Firebreathing - A Warning!

Posted: 12th May 2002
Sorry dude... so what are you doing with your sticks???

I can't hear you... I have a banana in my ear.

"You mean I'll have to use my brain?... but I use staff!!!" ~ ben-ja-men

Posted: 12th May 2002
Something similar happened to Dangerboy I think.

Meh

Posted: 12th May 2002
well, i wonder how many times this will happen b4 people heed my advice...

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted: 12th May 2002
also... so sorry to hear it, my prayers are with you tonight

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted: 12th May 2002
Arashi: I've read your "advice" for fire breathing. Personally your methods are just as dangerous as any other. Your method is risking the same lung injuries, and as for the stomach problems......your just trading that risk, for a higher chance of severly burning your face and mouth. You even mentioned that after two or three plumes, your mouth burns to bad to do another.

Its all dangerous. The difference between a successful plume, and in the hospital, is a split second. I think that this thread, is just a reminder that the dangers are very real.

falloutboy: I hope you feel better soon.

Nothing good ever comes from hanging out with normal people.

Posted: 13th May 2002
Yup, same thing happened to Dangerboy a while back, and another one of our friends. Except he was in hospital for 3 months. I don't think he's played with fire much since, and the accident happened a long time ago.

As much as fire-breathing looks good and is a really effective crowd winner. I think the risks far out weigh the pros for me, so I will just stick to spinning fire, and leave the breathing bit to those guys who don't mind risking it, and know how to do it professionally.

That’s my pennys worth for today...

Love and Light

~*~ Katinca ~*~

Posted: 13th May 2002
wow sorry to hear that. i thought you guys would've used a +40 proof alcohol to fire breath.. i didn't know you used kerosene.. I hope you feel better falloutboy! ^.~

Peace, Love, Unity, Respect ^.~

Between two evils, I always pick the one I never tried before.

Posted: 13th May 2002
psssst Fallout! I save ya from another told-ya-so, suffice to say that the next time someone gives you a hella badass cocktail, you can say that you've skulled worse! mend those lungs buddy!

Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

Posted: 13th May 2002
well i've written something twice now and accidentally erased it both times...F&^ing buttons!
anyway, i'm keeping it short this time.
i really urge everyone to go back and read my previous talks on this topic. i feel like it is the one place where people at HOP are severely misinformed. but for here let me say that if fallout was using rum, he would have swallowed, found the girls at the party more attractive , and gone home. no hospital.
now, i don't pretend to know everything, and i welcome anyone to tell me if i don't know something. i'm doing this out of concern. people lives are at stake!!! this is my job, as far as i can see for longer than anyone else here at HOP, so please at least open your minds for a minute and listen!! i have taught a lot of people to blow, and NEVER NEVER has any one of my students had an accident. fire blowing can be QUITE quite safe if done correctly. i said it was dangerous earlier only because so many do it that have no idea what they are doing.
severe? now, i burned my face blowing as a beginner, and the burn was far from severe. (thanks to the water safety boy!) i just couldn't kiss my girlfriend for a while. that's the worst that can happen if using rum, but with kero and paraffin, too. with the heavy fuels, an accident and you go to the hospital! or die!!!
most importantly, if we are teaching beginners to use heavy fuel, and we all know that beginners swallow, (no pun intended), then why are we doing this, i mean, they aren't even doing any tricks, like pullbacks or partner transfers, et. al., so why do they even need to consider using anything but rum? why?? WHY??? fallout could be dead right now, and all because people can't put down their own opinions and listen. now, i can do all of those tricks with rum, and so it makes even less sense to me. it seems outrageous.
again, i don't want to sound superior at all. i know i'm a drug fried freak. but somebody at least give me a plausible refutation.
and if there are dangers involved in inhaling fumes from rum, as there are with heavies, then i don't know about them, and i'm ready to listen. otherwise, there really is no tradeoff of danger. there is just dumb, and way less dumb.
i love you all, and i don't want to see any more people in the hospital. hopefully this can become a constructive discussion, and we can all come to an enlightened point about this.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted: 13th May 2002
wow that wasn't short at all!!

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted: 13th May 2002
My good vibes to falloutboy. A while ago there was a thread on fire breathing with cooking oils, what is the status quo with this is it good/ bad work / not work and how dangerous? I have bretahed fire with Rum and kero, (not together) and do prefere kero flame, and taste but am obviously more for safety and am not a big fan of carcinogens.

The answer is never the answer. What's really interesting is the mystery. If you seek the mystery instead of the answer, you'll always be seeking. I've never seen anybody really find the answer-- they think they have, so they stop thinking. But the job is to seek mystery, evoke mystery, plant a garden in which strange plants grow and mysteries bloom. The need for mystery is greater than the need for an answer.-- Ken Kesey

Posted: 13th May 2002
Unforunatly other then the get well soon commemts, we are not discussing anything that hasn't been discussed before over and over agian. You can get chemical pnamonia in your lungs just as easily with rum, as with "oils". The major difference between the two types of fuels, is that with rum and white gas you are ingniteing the vapors. this can lead to all sorts of messes. Say, spilling it down the front of your shirt, blowing a plum and having the flame jump from the fumes in the plume, to the fumes on the front of your shirt by way of your chin because you dribbled just alittle bit.

With "oils" you are igniteing the fuel by turning it into a vapor as it leaves your mouth. I'm not saying that the above couldn't happen with "oils" but I am saying it is alot harder. Both kero and lamp oil need a wick, or to be atomized to burn. So for the above to take place you would need facal hair (a wick) to get the fire to your shirt. Even then you would have to sit there with you face on fire, a while, to get the shirt to ignite.

Please don't think I am taking a negative tone, but I am an advocate of using lamp oil. Accedents are going to happen, and it is very sad and upsetting when they do. IMHO with a memorized methodology, that once you start the proccess dosn't stop until you are done (if for any reason you have to stop the fuel is spit out of your mouth) you can reduce the risks invalved. But really, this is alot like beating a dead horse, I mean a realy dead horse.

Nothing good ever comes from hanging out with normal people.

Posted: 13th May 2002
Everyone who's been here more than a few months has read Pele's article on firebreathing: Fire Breathing Basics by Pele
If you haven't maybe you should.

arashi, you've been shut down before for being an arrogant wish-you-knew-it-all. You might want to stay seated. Your warnings are moot as your teachings are dangerous. If you were a better teacher, there wouldn't be any need to worry about the students swallowing any fuel. Keep that in mind.

Maelstrom, thanks for recognizing this as well.

FYI: I am not Pele. If you wish to reply to me and use a short version of my name, use: PWB.

English? Who needs that? I'm never going to England. - Homer Jay Simpson

Posted: 13th May 2002
now, see, me and maelstrom here were having a good discussion, and no name calling was occuring, and i was learning, and i think he was, too, and you had to come on in and get all uppity. oh, well, but i'm not going to throw it back at you. i'm not going there. now if it seems like i'm an arrogant wish i knew it all, then maybe you have a problem with someone challenging your ideas. or should i say your girlfriend's? i'm just trying to open discussion here, not shut anything or anyone down. least of all say offensive stuff to anyone. but i guess i'll go talk on a board where people actually WANT to talk and challenge themselves in a positive way. yeah, i did feel "shut down," and i think that sucks. like some kind of power trip. i think i made it perfecty clear that i'm coming from humility and just want to talk, but seems some are more interested in something else. well, the hint is taken. i just hope that you try to open yourselves more to other people out there that might have other opinions. i was learning a lot, and i think that the people i was talking to were, too... at least about how other people feel and think. and i know others have my opinions too, but were they treated the same way? man, just relax. nothing is so important that you need to be offensive. that's what pulls communities apart. discussion keeps them together.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted: 13th May 2002
Arashi - I have heard comments similar to yours from a number of different people. Some of these have since been severely hurt and some of them haven't.

Yes, you are right that swallowing rum is better for you than swallowing other fuels...

But, that's not the biggest danger, this danger is from the fuel going into your lungs! Either very small amounts as happens when you firebreathe 'correctly', or by a small amount actually getting in at once.

The lungs are fibrous like a sponge and can get severely damaged very easily by a tiny amount of chemical, whether it is kero, rum, or even coca-cola...

The more often you firebreath, the more likely this will happen.

Using the argument that "it's never happened to me so my method must be safe" is an easy way to think, but extremely dangerous way to forget about the danger of what you are doing.

I wish to empahasise what many people already have in this thread.

No matter what your technique or fuel...

FIREBREATHING IS DANGEROUS.

Everytime you firebreath you should be making a conscious decision between the rewards and the risk of disability or death. It's your decision.

But don't let anyone, even your own mind, let you think it is as safe as firedancing. I don't know of any deaths resulting from firedancing (there may be some). But I know of half a dozen deaths from firebreathing, and dozens of serious injuries.

Charles the Energizer Safety Bunny

HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Posted: 13th May 2002
okay, so i've read the msds sheet on paraffin. the question is, are they saying that the vapour coming off the fuel is dangerous? i've thought that they are (saying that), so it SEEMS that the main danger is inolved when you have the paraffin in your mouth, and you take a breath, and the vapour enters your lungs. now i never even thought about inhaling the aspirated fuel. that seems preety dangerous, of course! so is the same vapour action danger involved in the alcohol? that seems like more of a brain issue, like huffing gas. that causes brain damage, not lung damage. if that's the case, then what is the danger in rum? now this is the point that i've been trying to get to! and if this has been discussed b4 i'm totally sorry. i can barely use this computer, and just consider me a big nunderhead. and thanks for humouring me

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted: 14th May 2002
I told people that Charles had turned into a rabbit a while back but no one believed me....

Meh

Posted: 14th May 2002
You are correct in that my name calling was a bad idea. However, I have a hard time believing that you were learning something as you're still spouting the same incorrect statements that you did when you started on this board. If you do learn then that's great, but I have a feeling not. Not because I'm a pessimist, but because I'm watching the pattern.

And don't bother throwing the g/f card in. I don't always agree with her. But on safety I happen to. Her research and article have been good enough to be hosted on a site where many people have been able to review it. If there were problems with it these would have been recognized by now. Your posts have been found faulting yet you continue to repeat them. That's a strong weight and strong points.

FYI: I am not Pele. If you wish to reply to me and use a short version of my name, use: PWB.

English? Who needs that? I'm never going to England. - Homer Jay Simpson

Posted: 14th May 2002
okay first of all thank you for calming down.
second, i feel like any time i start getting down to it, the real points that i'm trying to make, the subject gets dropped, and i can't get my point across. so it may seem like i'm beating a dead horse, but really i'm still just trying to get down to some points. because mainly, i'm just trying to do one thing. on the faq article, and on every single thread that i read (there where 206, so i may have missed one or two) the possibility of using 120 prrof rum is totally shot down by pele and others that have been tauught by her as far as i an tell. but there are a lot of people that are concerned about the toxins as well they should be. i mean fallout could be dead. do you realize that? really realize it? now, it's his own responsibility, and noone is to blame. but i think that it's totally wrong that a perfectly viable option that he has available to him has been totally excluded from his list of possibilities. now i'm really smart and i'm sitting here telling you that there are even holes in your opinions, holes that i'm trying to adress for the betterment of everybody. a lot of people use 120 rum. heck, i even still use lamp oil myself! but i think that it's wrong to keep the OPTION unavailable to people who are concerned about toxicity. especially for beginners, who could most benefit from alcohol as the fuel. and let me reiterate that i have taught lots of people accident free.
so my main point is that you should be trying to fulfill your role as an information rich site, but one of the main fuels that hundreds of people use because they don't want to die of poisoning doesn't even get validity for you guys, even when people come to hop and say, wow, that shit is too toixic, what can i do? or wow, you guys still put kero in you mouth? every thread i saw ended with pele shooting them down. and it's cool, i can see how she is trying to take care of everybody. she thinks alcohol is really bad. i'm just trying to open her mind a little. she's not as concerned with the toxins. well, a lot of people really are. and i know that if someine tried talking to me, rather than just shooting down my discussion, that we could get somewhere. again, i'm not even saying that i don't ever use lamp oil. but most of the people coming to this site to learn about fire breathing are beginners. and i feel they should at least have all the information out there. especially since a lot of people think that all beginners should use alcohol until they get used to the whole firebreathing thing. that's all i'm trying to say. and i know that if we get down to it, you'll see that i've got some intelligent points too make. and yes, i do learn, and yes, i do listen. and yes, this stressed me out a lot last night, and i'm so glad that you and hopefullt your g/f as well are ready to talk openly and friendly-like. i'm sorry if my goofy attitude gets in the way and makes me seem like something else. and i'm sorry if i contributed to your anger in any way. let's move on, shall we?

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted: 14th May 2002
(takes off his moderators cap)

Arashi, my personal reason for not using high-proof alcohols is that, in addition to being a toxin, they are also an intoxicant.

This means that they can alter your state of mind.

The most common reactions are a loss of co-ordination, inability to recognise this loss of inhibitions and concern for personal safety and the scariest one AND lack of coherent thought concerning others safety.
Did I mention "INABILITY TO RECOGNISE THE INEBRIATED STATE".

I'm not saying this is what happens to you personally, but I know for a fact it is what happens to a large number of people. If you truly believe there is no danger whatsoever of you getting drunk then that is your choice.
But please, don't ever think that because you don't seem to be in danger of it, that that means no-one else is in danger either.

We all have different reactions to different chemicals (including alcohols), making what seems (and i mean SEEMS) safe for one person, a very dangerous activity for others. So don't tell people what is safe and what is not based on your own experiences, let them know the relevant dangers and make their own choices.

If some rum gets into your lungs, it isn't perhaps as bad as kero, however you will still go to hospital and still have your life threatened. But the chance of becoming drunk while doing a dangerous fire-art like fire-breathing just doesn't outweigh the benefits in my mind.

And, for the record, I have chosen to no longer fire-breath at all, since my engagement...

(15 days to go...)

That's my 2c...

[ 15 May 2002, 11:07: Message edited by: Charles (INFERNO) ]

HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Posted: 15th May 2002
yeah, i just do my fire breathing at the end of the show. and plus i don't encourage any one to do it long enough that they get drunk. any more than a few blasts and it gets boring for an audience anyway. so if you've got two blowers even, then certainly noone would get drunk off of 120 rum. that's just me. i never tell anyone to go blow a million blasts. when i teach them, i tell them to take it slow and do it gradually, so they don't get drunk.
plus, again, i'm just trying to make the info available to those who want to make the choice to use rum. i mean, it's all a matter of preference and decisions, but the very option is shot down! i mean we could go point by point, and each fuel has it's good points and bad points. and i don't want to force any one to use alcohol, not even myself. but you have to be objective as a teacher, and let people make their own choices, with all the info that they can have available. i see a lot of people saying they want more oprions, but the alcoholic one is just thrown away as stupid. but it isn't. it's just a choice with different parameters involved.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted: 14th May 2002
Ok after reading this thread and having a think about what has been said I think that it is possible that Lamp oil is safer then rum. Now I don’t fire breathe, I have and I used what was called ‘Fire water’ which is as toxic if not more toxic then most of the hydrocarbons us pyros use to set our toys on fire with.

But…. In regards to the rum I think these are some main points that were brought up:

Maelstrom: “You can get chemical pnamonia in your lungs just as easily with rum, as with "oils". The major difference between the two types of fuels, is that with rum and white gas you are ingniteing the vapors. this can lead to all sorts of messes. Say, spilling it down the front of your shirt, blowing a plum and having the flame jump from the fumes in the plume, to the fumes on the front of your shirt by way of your chin because you dribbled just a little bit.

With "oils" you are igniteing the fuel by turning it into a vapor as it leaves your mouth. I'm not saying that the above couldn't happen with "oils" but I am saying it is alot harder. Both kero and lamp oil need a wick, or to be atomized to burn. So for the above to take place you would need facal hair (a wick) to get the fire to your shirt. Even then you would have to sit there with you face on fire, a while, to get the shirt to ignite.”

And Charles comments ‘The lungs are fibrous like a sponge and can get severely damaged very easily by a tiny amount of chemical, whether it is kero, rum, or even coca-cola...’. Charles also stated very importantly that Alcohol is an intoxicant, which is true, alcohol is a very potent intoxicant, and yes you can even get intoxciated from it from just being in you mouth. It is also a carcinogen itself, although not necessarily to the mouth/throat/lungs.

So… I guess if I were to make the choice based on this thread as a “beginner” fire breather I would probably choose to do it lamp oil or something similar to that. Then again I choose not to fire breathe as too many people, who are highly talented and have done it a million time before….have all at some point had a serious accident.

I view it as playing on a road, if you keep playing on there for a long time, eventually some big truck is going to come along and turn you into mush.

I think fire breathing is a good crowd pleaser. I think fire eating is impressive, and has a sensual aspect to it as well as the crowd-pleasing aspect. But I myself believe that I already inhale enough carcinogens when I twirl, why the hell would I want them in my mouth and the possibility of swallowing them?

Anyway, that’s my view on this. I am interested in what you said Maelstrom about vapors and inanition points, flash points of fuel etc…. Can you expand more on that at all?

Love and Light

~*~ Katinca ~*~

Posted: 14th May 2002
first let me say again htat i'm not trying to change anyone's mind. i use lamp oil too on occasion. but i think that there's a misconception going on here, and i want to see it worked out.
well, i feel i need to ask a more detailed question as a response to the first point. tell me if i'm wrong about any of this.
the msds sheets say that the vapour coming off of lamp oil and kero is toxic and will give you the lung poisoning thing. that's something that i'm going off of. now i htink that once they are apirated, then all fuels are dangerous. so don't inhale any aspirated fuel period. now, the vapors coming off of rum are nowhere near as toxic as lamp oil's. rum vapours are just going to get you less o2 to your brain, maybe more, but nnothing major, or all bartenders would be dropping like flies. but lamp oil vapours ARE dangerous, as the msds sheets say. so, all things equal, rum is less toxic. especially given the whole swallowing thing.
so now if you also include with your information about firebreathing that if you use rum as an option for fuel, simply don't blow enough that you get drunk. i mean people have to be responsible for their own decisions, so they have to stop b4 they get drunk. you just include all that in your information sheet. i never implied that rum doesn't carry it's own set of things to watch out for.
now all this stuff about getting fuel on your shirt i don't think even should negate the plausibilty of rum as an option. just don't make a mess, and wipe your face. most people just want to blow a couple of times during a show, so what's the big deal?
again, all i'm saying is make all this info, including what not to do when using rum, available so people can make those decisions for themselves. and i'll continue to debate the finer points, because i think that knowledge is power, and we can all help each other by enlightened discussion... thanks again for talking about this stuff

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted: 14th May 2002
Okay, I am going to come in on the uneducated side, because I have never done or studied fire-breathing.

Basically, what people appear to be saying, is that in order for you to firebreathe you are lighting the fuel vapours (whether it be vegetable oils, as discussed in another thread, chemical fuels or rum). Vapours are, as I understand, little drops of liquid suspended in the air. This is why you blow the fuel into the air, because you are essentially making lots of little drops of liquid with lots of oxygen between them so they burn well and quickly.

Whatever you are using, there is a chance you will inhale these vapours. The tissue in the lungs & in the nasal passage, is slightly more delicate than that in the throat and stomach, so having vapours collect, no matter what they are from, can damage the tissue. This is what is called chemical pneumonia. It is different to a bartender being around rum all the time, because he is not inhaling vapours.

In addition, must fuels when they burn, burn inefficiently. Burning is a chemical reaction. This means that it produces new compounds. If it burns efficiently in chemical terms, it produces relatively harmless compounds, but if it occurs inefficiently, it can produce quite toxic ones. These can be gases, vapours or even little particles like dust suspended in the air. Inhaling them is a problem because, as before, the lungs and nasal pasages are very delicate. All the fuels we are talking about do this.

Swallowing and inhaling are not the same thing. From all the points made by everyone, it seems that inhaling the vapours of any fuel is just as dangerous. Swallowing the fuel itself (unlit), is a different story. Rum is less toxic when it comes to swallowing, but it does get you drunk and this can impair your judgement.

I hope this picks up the points that everyone has made, and makes some sense. Please correct me where I am wrong.

Take care and play safe, kiddies

R.

[ 15 May 2002, 15:30: Message edited by: Rozi ]

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

Posted: 14th May 2002
I would like to point out a small over looked item. That if anyone is using rum, because they are afraid of toxins, you shouldn't even be entertaining the idea of fire breathing in the first place. I'm sorry, but I think that is a funny thing to say. It's like the pot calling the kettle black.

Rozi: another big difference between a fuel that has vapor (rum) and a fuel that requires atomizing (oil) is that if you were to take a mouth full of lamp oil and slowy spit a stream of it at a lite torch it will put the torch out. If you do the same with high proof rum the flame will slide right up the stream into your face. Like liter fluid being squirt directly into a lite grill. Atomizing a fume based fuel just makes that process happen easier.

[ 15 May 2002, 17:09: Message edited by: Maelstrom ]

Nothing good ever comes from hanging out with normal people.

Posted: 15th May 2002
actually vapors are molecules suspended in air which are released into it from the rest of the fuel at a certain rate, according to how light they are compared to air, and their temperature.
aspirated fuel is drops in the air. the finer the drops the better the burn. that's why fuel injectors work well, because they atomize fuel into finer particles. and why when you blow, you want the finest particles you can get, so they all burn off, and don't fall back down in the form of fuel onto your person or the stage. plus it makes the flame bigger. ther is a difference between vapor, and aspirated fuel. now, aspirated alcohol will have a lot more vapor in it than aspirated lamp oil. but either one, if you stick your face into the blow, will suck. so you don't do that. yoou blow, and then you back off. actually, lamp oil is even more dangerous, because itburns less efficiently, and will have far more vapor and aspirated fuel in the air after the ignition of the blow stops.airlcohol burns so much weasier that there will be less of it left afterwards. including on your dance floor. no more slip slidin around! thta in itself is a big plus! i personally hate it when i'm trying to dance and i can barely stand.
now i just read the msds for alcohol vapors and the worst thing on there was dizziness, headache. the vapors for lamp oil are deadly. it seems to me like the vapor from rum isn't nearly as toxic. the point here is that you are ssaying rum is totally so evil that it shouldn't even be considered.
and it's not hypocritical to choose the less toxic fuel. it's a choice i make, because i want to impact my body as little as possible.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted: 15th May 2002
Thanks Maelstrom & Arashi, like I said, I don't know much about this stuff, so all the clarification you can give is appreciated.

[ 15 May 2002, 23:08: Message edited by: Rozi ]

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

Posted: 15th May 2002
Arashi: which msds, by what company are you looking at for lamp oil? And where did you get one for the Rum? I can't find one for rum, just white gas and please don't tell me your substiting the one for the other. Your claiming lamp oil has a vapor. On my msds sheet, down loaded from the NAFAA sight, it says that the evaporation rate and ref is not applicable, and that the vapor density (air=1) is not avalible. The NAFAA dosn't even make referance to "Rum" as a solution commonly used by "fire perfromers". So how are you comparing the two? I'm not getting nasty here, I'm just starting to think that you are sitting there pulling facts and comparisions out of thin air. Thats not cool! If we are going to "learn" from one another here (or at least start a really good pissing contest) I want the same information in front of me your referancing.

Nothing good ever comes from hanging out with normal people.

Posted: 15th May 2002
Arashi,
You are beginning to sound like a broken record. Your plight through illness was bad yes, but move on. If it was that traumatizing, do not firebreathe. Dangerboy suffered terribly recently, as have many, and all of them accept the responsibility that they made the choice to do what they did, and that in the end, the consequences were their fault. You keep blaming the fuel and telling the story it seems every place you have the chance, not listening to others, and only learning a more dangerous solution from the experience it seems.

Now, I have taught three people in person to firebreathe. If you had truly read all of the posts on firebreathing as carefully as you say, then you would have known this. This then invalidates your arguement about "all the people I taught siding against you" is incorrect and I took offense to the insuation that people do not think for themselves and are so easily lead. I also read this as a plea for anyone to step up and defend you. We are not attacking you, merely pointing out what we have learned and trying to do the same as you claim to be doing, protecting another fire person.
What you are missing here, or refuse to accept, is the possibility that your illness was triggered by the fuel but that you were predisposed to it in the first place. Your end all, beat all, this is the only right way attitude is in the absolutionist perspective and very limited. Tell me, how many months of research did you do before even starting breathing? How many sources on fuels have you read and how many fire marshalls and chemists have you spoken to about this subject? How many physicians did you speak to to find out the consequences before you started? How many professional fire breathers did you contact before you started? My list is too long to put here. AND if what you say is correct, why are there more injuries per year associated with recreational fire and alcohol misuse, than fire and kero misuse? (I can list several in my area alone with alcohol and none with kero). Why is it that nearly every professional out there stays away from the use of alcohol if it is as safe as you say? Could you for one moment understand your situation, while unfortunate is one in a few incedences like it, and that just because you are making it work for you does not mean it is the safest thing to do?
What I see everytime this comes up is that you get so defensive in your limited vision, that you lose any substantial agruements you might have, which with alcohol is limited anyway. Also I notice that you were ill, which is misfortunate, but consequently you are jaded and venting, not for the protection of others but because you are hurt that something you care very deeply about doing came back to bite you. Never have you provided scientific backing as to why this is safer, just a passionate opinion from a bruised ego. This I understand, but if you look at the hard evidence and research, you will find your chice is unsafe.
If you don't believe me, ask anyone who has been firebreathing for 30+ years with kerosene with no side effects (some of which are on the guild list and fully agree with me after your rant on there as well). If you entered into firebreathing unaware (which it sounds that you have) then you are to blame for your own ignorance in the matter. Not the fuel you used (which you seem hell bent to blame) or anything else. You made the decision to do this, therefore the consequences are yours to bare. I am glad you have not been injured using alcohol, but I personally think that before I would spread such incredibly unsafe practices, as well as endangering my audience, which alcohol use does (did you read the report on the bar the caught fire because of alcohol used in firebreathing?) I would rather give up firebreathing all together despite that it is a great passion of mine. Perhaps with your jaded point of view you do not understand this, but just because it tastes better does not make it any safer.
On the other side as well, alcohol causes cancer, stomach and liver damage, tissue damage, possibly brain damage. Are you then to tell me that it is safer to use in a health aspect? You are misinformed if you do.
Also, I do not know what MSDS sheet you are reading but the vapors from alcohol and gasolenes are far more problematic than with kero. In falloutboy's case, it could've happened with water and made him ill. Nothing which has been aspirated should be inhaled, not even water, because it can cause damage to the lungs. Scuba class taught me that.

Preach use of biodiesel if you want to go into safety, but do not preach (and that is what you are doing) alcohol. When you are talking fire breathing and fire safety arashi, you have to understand you are preaching to the choir, not to a bunch of children. This is an established community with a great deal of experience and knowledge shared between us. We appreciate the sharing of your experience, but do not appreciate the defensive and absolute manner you go about presenting your thoughts without taking the time to concider the flip side of the coin, the very real dangers of what you **choose** to use/do. We have been doing this awhile, some longer than you, and have experiences all our own. Things happen and you need to get over your trauma and enjoy the fact that you have a wonderful life.

Falloutboy, thank you for sharing and my sincerest wishes for a speedy recovery and healthful fire experiences once you feel better!

Remember all: it is not an *if* situation, it is a *when* situation we choose to be in.

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 15th May 2002
well i'm going off of the msds sheets for ethanol/ethyl alcohol as the sheet for rum.
also i'm sorry if i got defensive easily. i'm justa moody scorpio, and a lot of emotion comes along with the package. it's not always the best thing, as you can see. sorry if i sound like a broken record- i write stream of consciousness, and sometimes i repeat myself.
i know that the fuel affected me because i have a predisposition to the toxin weakness. my point is that i am not the only one like this, and that i felt like when myself, and others like me, looked into the list of fuel options that you are educating people with, (thank you for your work), the possibility of alcohol was less than available. it was shut down emphatically. and my point is, alcohol can be used safely if you follow some guidelines, so why not adress those people's concerns with the relevant information?and i meant by "taught" that, if you provide the information on how to do something, then you are teaching. but since you, pele, are teaching that alcohol is so horrible, i thought that all the others were following your teaching. i've personally never come across another group of people that were so against ethyl alcohol. in fact it is what most experienced fire folks that i know use. so i assumed that it was due to your teachings that i met so much resistance. sorry if i assumed too much. again, don't use it if you don't want to. but please stop telling me that i'm stupid-you're still telling me that, even after a lot of people on this site have thanked me for tryying to press the non toxic issue. i am just working with different parameters than you.
also i think that there has been a lot of misconception built around the vapor thing, read back over what i said and see if you see what i mean. because the vapor from ethyl alcohol is not dangerous. the aspirateds fuels are. and the msds sheets i read about paraffin said vapor harmful or fatal. i can't remember which ones exactly. maybe they were wrong. but products vary, and at least some of them have deadly vapor! that's BAD.
that means that it is way easier to get chemical pneumonia with kero, because you'd have to breathe aspirated fuel to get it from ethanol, and no other way. i simply feel that alcohol needs to be put out there as an option for those with predisposition to get real sick when they put kero in their mouth. along with the fuels such as kero, that have their own dangers, and deadly aspects. every fuel is deadly, and all of them fry faces. so let people make their own choice!
and yes, i'm real excited about the biodiesel thing. but, just be careful! a lot of biodiesels have methanol in them, which is severely severely bad. be sure to warn people about that, so they don't just buy any old biodiesel. from what i understand, tho, big 20-30 foot type flames aren't possible with soybeans either, so i'm not getting too excited yet

i don't really want to keep beating the dead horse either. the only reason i keep up with the finer issues is that it seems it's the only way i can get you guys to acknowledge that it's at least valid, and educate from there. again thank you.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.