Forums > Social Discussion > Anti War

Posted: 27th Jan 2002
Is anyone reading this board aware that the war in Afgahnistan is basically over?Code128

------------------
A.N.T.H.E.L.I.O.N

Posted: 27th Jan 2002
excuse me! RavingLunatic but i don't think any thing is wrong with abreavating because we all know who and what we are talking about here.it's not like a exam paper!

Posted: 28th Jan 2002
Thank you King Louie!ok, let's not let this degenerate into a dicussion of semantics, it's so annoying when that happens with a good discussion..Raymond, you are trying my patience though, i can handle the occasional typo, but please you can spell my name right, it's right here on the page!anyway.. Raymond, i can't stop you from posting, so continue if you must, but, know that every time you post, i understand the reason for your last name even better Code128, the war is still very much active. Only a few days ago, the american forces raided a warehouse killed several people, destroyed a large amount of weapons. These people are claimed by the americans to be taliban and al qaeda. afghanistan says they were pro government workers. some were found dead of gunshot wounds with their hands tied behind their backs. i would provide you a link, from CNN, it was on there the other day, now all i can seem to find is this:https://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/28/gen.war.against.terror/index.htmlThe war is still very much going on. If you go into the events of the middle east, you will also see that other things in the area, such as the palestines and the israelis fighting, and india and pakistan, are very related to this.

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

Posted: 28th Jan 2002
Dianna, i am sorry, i don't mind the abbreviations..I just wanted you to realize there is more than reaches the eye conveniently.. you must go search for it yourself.I will restrain myself from criticizing anyone though.. ------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

Posted: 28th Jan 2002
Now that I have written a nice long reply to the King's post and it got deleated when I had to hit the back button, I am too pissed to say much so I will keep it short. King Louie you aint perfect check your own friggin post over. To anyone who I misspelled your name I am sorry and I did not intend to misspell it. Cutie Poi Girlie I am sorry for abreviating your name, I did it for time sakes seen as how I have to pay for every minute that I spend on this machine. That about sums it up.Dom feel better and I'll talk to you later.Raymund

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 28th Jan 2002
DIANNA - "It makes me mad to think about not standing up for what's right for a country's own good.!"Exactly why is death, violence and murder the only way to stand up for what's 'right'? Raymund, - that "unsubstanciated anti-America propaganda" is from the Guardian, one of the top intellectual papers in the UK, who are heavily regulated by various press commissions and the law which states you can't print lies. The SOA exists - The Center for International Policy , School of the Americas Watch. It's amazing how insightful 5 minutes of searching can be. You yourself have said that you don't have access to a lot of media and don't know all the facts, but are still prepared to believe them. Fair enough, but respect those who like to know what's going on and read around!Also note that the BBC is basically government funded (no adverts or sponsers), so "more viewers more sponsers, more sponsers more money" doesn't apply. It's still one of the main news sources worldwide, the BBC World service being a principal source of news for those all over the world.Code128 - WRONG! Just because it's not on the news 24/7 anymore doesn't mean its over. Fighting is still going on, bombs are still falling from US planes, millions of people have been starving and homeless. The damage is done, a country is in ruins and that doesn't just end, it takes generations to fix. Countries such as the US have a history of interfering with other nations, then pulling out leaving the country in a mess once it stops being headline news or important to their policies. And the US is threatening to take the 'war' to other countries, Bush needs something to take the heat off the government after Enron. This thread stands quite a good, if lengthy, discussion into an amazingly important issue, and hopefully has made a few people think. I know I've received a number of comments on it, so it's not just me and Raymund reading it. Personally it's been interesting and insightful to see how other people think, especially how they see the issue in hand.War is a 'messy business' and takes its toil on innocent who suffer, and there's little way to stop this during a war. Personally I strive to find a way to avoid war, others accept it as an ugly necessity. Either way, it's happened, innocent people have died and are suffering. The only thing we can do now is to try to stop further death in our own way. Save the Children UK, World Vision US, The Hunger Site, Mercy Corps[This message has been edited by -Dom- (edited 29 January 2002).]

Posted: 28th Jan 2002
Yeah Dom! thanks for pointing that stuff out..well, it seems we are all here now.. unfortunately, it's 4:15am , and I need to work in the morning, i don't really have time for this discussion, but notice raymond, how i still keep my posts making sense?thanks for the links Dom, i will have to check them all out, i already knew about the hunger site, i go there every day, but the others i had not heard of.anyway good night people, i hope this coming week the situation in afghanistan improves and that people who read this board continue to learn about the issue and what this really means for the future of the globe.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

Posted: 28th Jan 2002
*Slides bottle of chill pills to Dom*I wasnt targeting BBC but atleast there is one news group out there that is not dependent on ratings. I did not believe you at first but I have looked at your stie www.soaw.org now I will do my own prodding but I doubt that it is as bad as they make it sound. Just a point that site has not been updated in about 8 months. Yep time to get rid of that guess we should close all counter narcotics classes. Did we train these men to go out and do the things they did. That site (as far as I saw) did not once call those men terroists so unless you are more of an expert than those people are dont. There are alot of pacifists that read this so I will put it this way.Are there men trained by the US government that are not in the US military? Yes. Who are the teachers of these men? Most of the classes are taught by Latin American instructors. We train in and on other countries bases why cant they train on ours? "In 1984, the school was forced to move from Panama to Fort Benning, near Columbus, Georgia, under the terms of the Panama Canal Treaties"I think that the real question here is did America ask for the SOA to relocate? Or was that just one price to pay for keeping the use of the canal open. Still I dont think that all the people at that school are terrorists some definatly fall into that catagory but then again when was the last time someone posted a web page asking the Russian mofia to close?I have read the question about "bad apples"on that site. I am not convinced but you know I think that the intention out ways what some members have done. Why was the school made? It was probably made to help prevent the atrocities that some of the members have caused. Out of 60,000 students I am sure that you would expect some to be psycho. I am sure out of the several million people in New York there are some psychos. Notice that there have been no and I mean no graduates from the US. And no graduates in the US military. Now do I believe that American tax payers should pay for a school that we dont even use hell no that makes me mad that I pay for something that we dont even use. The latin military that uses these people in the wrong way are the ones to blame for the attorocities. America is not training them. I wish I had more time to go over this. But like I said I doubt that it was intended to be a school for terrorists.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 28th Jan 2002
Code 128, I agree, it is a war.And that to me suggest that prisoners in camp X are "Prisoners of war".and should be respected and tried as such.Definately POW's.POW's its basic human rights, I don't need to spell it out..one of the reasons that any sane nation treats POW with respect is that it has been shown to make enemy soldiers more likely to surrender rather than go kamakazi, leading to less casualties on own side.Any one need to be reminded of the appauling torture which US POWs suffered in the hands of the Viet Cong. Human rights, Human wrongs.Glass

Posted: 28th Jan 2002
The prisoners that are currently being held in Camp X-ray occupy very little of my thoughts.I would suggest that most peoples time could be better spent on lots of other things, like helping people locally, or volunteering, donating ETC. Code128

------------------
A.N.T.H.E.L.I.O.N

Posted: 28th Jan 2002
Raymond, your continuing belief that our gov't is beyond wrong-doing astonishes me. There is no question that our CIA trained Bin Ladin. They even admit that. Our gov't does many bad things, and we should be called on it. Our unrelenting backing of Israel is one of those. All of this is related, believe it or not. Many (all?) arab countries hate us because we will back Israel, right or wrong.Just a side Note: Enron + US gov't + widespread corruption of financial institutions + corruption of oversight bodies=GOV'T AS CORRUPT AS ALL THOSE SLIMEBAG COUNTRIES WE THINK THAT WE ARE BETTER THAN and you are fighting for the right to continue that corruption

Posted: 28th Jan 2002
If I hear the CIA Trained Bin Laden one more time...Do you think that because the CIA trained someone that is a justifaction for attacks against America? If the CIA had never trained Osama, Bin Laden would still be attacking. People would still be fighting, not because the CIA made me, but because violence and fighting is the current natural state of man, (Has been for awhile) hopefully this can change in the future as we evolve, but currently thats what we have, so we need to deal with it as it is. I think a good thing for America to do is withdraw our support for Israel, that way the Arab countries wont hate us. After that the world will be a better place wont it? Code128"Did you notice a sign on the front of my house that said Dead Nigger Storage?"

------------------
A.N.T.H.E.L.I.O.N

Posted: 28th Jan 2002
Enron + US gov't + widespread corruption of financial institutions + corruption of oversight bodies=GOV'T AS CORRUPT AS ALL THOSE SLIMEBAG COUNTRIES WE THINK THAT WE ARE BETTER THANlol..yes this is all related. I sincerely belive America should pack up and go home, they got rid of the taliban, now is the time to walk away like the bigger man. Also, the issue of israel is very important, i think the US should withdraw support for them as well.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

Posted: 28th Jan 2002
Code128 - I think people pointing out that Bin Laden once had US backing is not to try to justify the attacks, but to point out the irony of the situation. A decade ago the US was more than happy to back a jihad against the Soviets in Afghanistan. It's ironic that now the US's own tactics have been used against itself and suddenly the US decides it's against terrorism of all forms (it remains to be seen if it's only against that which affect US interests or voters, and only as long as it's not US backed or committed by the US's friends)."The prisoners that are currently being held in Camp X-ray occupy very little of my thoughts." One day you may be held falsely, if people don't care for others who will care for you? To treat these people as the animals they are labelled as (and that some of them act like) is a gross failure of America's values. True victory is in upholding what you believe in, regardless. The US has failed to live up to it's label as a civilized and democratic country.My opinion, a lot of these guys are scum, but these people are not all hard core killers who planned Sept 11th and dreamt of spilling American blood. Some of them are misguided fools who fell for a charismatic preacher and weren't even in Afghanistan before the US started bombing. The US has decided that those captured in war are not necessarily POWs and has decided to make an exception for a US citizen captured in Afghanistan, but not for anyone else. The US is rapidly becoming a world leader in being two faced and unjust.The US now needs to make Arabic friends, fast! It not only needs to stop further attacks, it needs their oil. The world needs to help rebuild Afghanistan and help other Arabic countries and understand what drives them and how to treat them. They have different lives, cultures and opinions out there that may not be the same as a politician's in Washington.The US is a powerful force, that can and is used for good as well as bombing and oppression! The US is a powerful ally of Israel, and now it needs to work with both Israel and Palestine to create a settlement to that mess. They've tried bombs and military action repeatedly, and it's never worked. Can the US government think about how to do this peacefully? Because someone powerful has to!BTW - let's not go too much off track. I wasn't trying to start an in depth into SOA or Middle Eastern politics, just wanted to point out some of the darker aspects of the US. This is an anti war thread, bad enough, but a 'solve the problems of the world' thread would be huge!!!

Posted: 28th Jan 2002
Dom, I love your style. You can articulate those things I don't have time/skill to do. I brought up the Israel/Palestinian conflict because, in my belief, all of this is related. I don't believe it for a second that's why the US was attacked, though. We've been brewing hate in most Arab countries for at least 50 years (longer than Israel has been a country). A lot of the hate/anger pointed at the US is because we've always done what's best in OUR interests. We helped out Bin Ladin/Afghan resistance because it was in our best interests at the time. When the Soviet Union collapsed, we no longer felt it was in our best interest to support the resistance, and as a result, a bunch of people were murdered who depended upon our word to help (that tends to make people a little upset). We play favorites all the time. In fact, the US wouldn't be the mighty country it is if we didn't rape/pilage/plunder any third world country that asked us for help. Perhaps I'm getting a little off subject, but I'm just frustrated that 95% (99?) of the US population believes we are the 5 day a week church goers that can do no wrong, because they believe in what they do (ssh, don't tell the christians )....

Posted: 28th Jan 2002
Raving Lunatic from what you posted I can see that your level of thought is rather low on the whole issue. Just pack up and Leave? Whatever your feelings on war surely that is the worst thing that anyone could possibly do. That attitude is what leaves countries to rot and become breeding grounds for fanatics. Comprende?>Code128 - I think people pointing out that Bin Laden once had US backing is not to try to justify the attacks, but to point out the irony of the situation. A decade ago the US was more than happy to back a jihad against the Soviets in Afghanistan. It's ironic that now the US's own tactics have been used against itself...I Dont know Dom was the US teaching the tactics of Hijacking Passenger planes and Crashing them into Office Towers? >and suddenly the US decides it's against terrorism of all forms (it remains to be seen if it's only against that which affect US interests or voters, and only as long as it's not US backed or committed by the US's friends).This is also not what the US has said that its mission is, what the US has stated is that it will search out and destroy all terrorist organizations that have "a global reach" that means that as long as the PLO terrorists keep bombing in Israel we probably wont interfere, but if there is a PLO attack on another country or god forbid on America then we would become involved, this is what allows countries like Spain to be part of an International Coalition with us and not worry that we will interfere with their internal struggles with the Basques. >"The prisoners that are currently being held in Camp X-ray occupy very little of my thoughts." One day you may be held falsely, if people don't care for others who will care for you? To treat these people as the animals they are labelled as (and that some of them act like) is a gross failure of America's values. True victory is in upholding what you believe in, regardless. The US has failed to live up to it's label as a civilized and democratic country. My comment about the camps was unfinished, Im not worried about the treatment they are receiving, the Red Cross has visited and interviewed and seems to be satisfied, They are not being lined up against a wall and shot, they eat and wait for more permanent structures to be completed. Code128

------------------
A.N.T.H.E.L.I.O.N

Posted: 28th Jan 2002
dude. that hurts. really. to see you.. spin along side me on the video, then say that to me? that's the first time in a while i felt genuinely hurt on the net.I have done my homework. by get up and leave i mean the US military. international peacekeeping forces should remain. but NOT the US. that is not helping. these people hate the US, and they hate them more each day another bomb falls from a plane. they see the soldiers disappear, and bunch of blue helmetted UN workers distributing food, maybe their opinion will change?

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

Posted: 29th Jan 2002
Wow alot has been said in one night. I am sorry that my posts dont seem to flow right or make sence at times, please just read over them once or twice and then you will understand what I ment. "Raymond, your continuing belief that our gov't is beyond wrong-doing astonishes me."*removes knife from back* Any how I do not believe that our government is "beyond wrong-doing" America has done some jaked up things before but I do not think that in the case of the SOA that I should believe one web page. I have learned alot of stuff and I still do not feel that we should call all persons from that school are terrorists some but not all.. Did "America" train them? Nope Did "America" pay for it? Yep and I bet we pay for alot of stuff that we dont know about. I will not even touch the subject on Camp X, soon they will not be there, soon they will be in the Phillipians.Did the US train Bin Ladin? Untill I see a news report saying that so-in-so from the CIA said such-in-such I wont believe it. When I do I will believe it. Like so many have said find out for yourself. So I will.Toneman you are damn right I am fighting to continue that corruption. When you show me a perfect and uncorrupt government I will defect to that country and fight whatever cause they see fit. Untill then I have no desire to fight for any other country.Dom I agree 100% with your 71st post.Nuff said on that.It is time that America got out of Afganistan, but unfortunatly we can't our job is only half done. Once we compleate our job then our men and women out of there. Send the people of Afganistan all the aid that we can, help out their government and leave it to do its own job and set its own pace to being as currupt as the rest of the worlds governments.(including America) Israel and Palestine have more problems than any country can fix. That is something that must be settled between those two countries. I think that the best thing that any country can do is set up a nutral place so that both countries can talk out their differances and send both countries an equal amount of aid. We need to get rid of as many variables in the conflict as we can. From what I understand is that their conflict is over two different religions and neither one of those teaches to kill all people that are not of the same belief.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 29th Jan 2002
Just posting more information as I find it. I am having so much fun digging up information! I also found mention of this book, which sounds interesting. From the Shadows, by Robert M. Gates The Ultimate Insider's Story of Five Presidents and How They Won the Cold War.For anyone interested - here's an interesting article by acclaimed journalist John Pilger. Have a dig around his works, there's some powerful stuff in there.I can't find a US mission statement on the government websites I'm looking through that talks about only targeting only those terrorists with international reach. It still seems to me like it's about destroying those who threaten America and it's interests abroad. It remains to be seen in the next few years how flexible the description 'terrorist' can be. We had an bomb go off in England a week or so after Sept 11, it was planted by a Irish terrorist cell. US troops in Ireland yet? No.The fact that Bin Laden was high up in the Mujaheddin is well known. Check out any profile in the news or wherever. During the USSR occupation of Afghanistan the US stirred up Muslim extremist sentiment and funded and trained anti USSR rebels, many in covert and sabotage operations. The CIA and SAS were probably teaching them to think of attacking with whatever they had, be it bombs or box cutters. They're resourceful, give them that!I quote from a declassified memo from U.S. National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski to President Jimmy Carter regarding the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan sent December 26, 1979A. It is essential that Afghanistani resistance continues. This means more money as well as arms shipments to the rebels, and some technical advice; B. To make the above possible we must both reassure Pakistan and encourage it to help the rebels. This will require a review of our policy toward Pakistan, more guarantees to it, more arms aid. C. We should encourage the Chinese to help the rebels also. D. We should concert with Islamic countries both a propaganda campaign and in a covert action campaign to help the rebels;He also said in an interview: the second course of action led to my going to Pakistan a month or so after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, for the purpose of coordinating with the Pakistanis a joint response, the purpose of which would be to make the Soviets bleed for as much and as long as is possible; and we engaged in that effort in a collaborative sense with the Saudis, the Egyptians, the British, the Chinese, and we started providing weapons to the Mujaheddin, from various sources...[This message has been edited by -Dom- (edited 30 January 2002).]

Posted: 29th Jan 2002
Dontcha hate it when that happens?------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

Posted: 29th Jan 2002
Another good site for searching out US history: The National Security Archive which collects and publishes declassified documents acquired through the Freedom of Information Act. Do searches for anything mentioned on this thread.Interesting line Raymund may be interested in from this article about Colonel Byron Disrael Lima Estrada, Alleged Mastermind behind the Murder of Bishop Juan Jose Gerardi of Guatemala.His early training included a basic infantry officer class at Fort Benning, Georgia, a stint at the now-infamous Army School of the Americas to attend a military police course, and–perhaps most important for the budding intelligence officer–counterintelligence instruction from a U.S. Army Mobile Training Team (MTT) on loan from the 610th Military Intelligence Detachment based in Panama.So US personel on loan to South America military taught at the school. It's a good loop hole.

Posted: 29th Jan 2002
The US Mission Statement was declared in the last State of the Union Address by President Bush. I would guess that it will either be reiterated or modified in the current address scheduled for tonight. Rav. Lunatic what are you refering to in your last post?Code128Just for added information and background I am not loyal to any political party in the US, the two major parties are so close to each other in actions and deeds that there isnt much difference anyway. I am an American and proud of that. I acknowledge huge faults in our current and past governments, and hope that we can do better in the future. Big Business has way way too much influence on how politics are handled.But when you wonder how much power their money actually buys them, take a look at Enron, they were the biggest donors and supporters of Bush and the republicans, they also donated huge sums to the democrats, but in the end what did their money buy them, from all appearances ABSOLUTELY NO HELP FROM THE GOVT when they were failing. Later folks

------------------
A.N.T.H.E.L.I.O.N

Posted: 29th Jan 2002

quote:

---

Raving Lunatic from what you posted I can see that your level of thought is rather low on the whole issue.

---

that hurt. my thought level is not low. Since september 11th i have lived this. I cried that night. I listened to your president speak, and I will listen to his address. I wanted to strangle the arab janitor who came into my work that night to clean my office when everyone else had gone home misguided anger i guess. I sung your national anthem in my streets.I am very passionate about this, i have done my homework, i belong to an antiwar coalition. I just don't want to see more people die.I do not hate america. but i agree, they are much too influenced by big buisness.now, as to your point about Enron? the govt, will not bail them out, because they are not looking out for the enron workers, the enron stockholders, the common person on the street. they are looking out for kenneth lay, and the other high ups. and those people have already escaped with the money.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

Posted: 29th Jan 2002
-Dom- How woould you settle something like this if you were the pres. of the U.S.A? would you not do any thing just let this problem go on??!!??

Posted: 29th Jan 2002
There is no easy way to fix any of the worlds problems. I have rewritten this post several times. It seams to me that war wont make everything better and just sending aid to every country to kiss ass aint gonna help too much either. Don't get me wrong I think that if you save one life you have done a lifetime of work. There is no easy way to stop all the worlds problems. Ya know I cant think of one way that you can solve one group of peoples problems with out pissing off another. Everyone is out for theirs and someone get theirs before they do its hell to pay. Dom I want looking for a loophole I was looking for. Personally I think that the SOA was designed to help those less fortunate countries millitary become better soldiers. It was something that has blown up alittle in our faces. Not all of it is bad but there is some and its that some that is hurting that istitution. Good initiative bad judgement.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 30th Jan 2002
if i was the american president i would tell my fello country men and women it is time to ease back with our needless consumption and that ever body should take more vacations, work less hours and talk to our neighbours a little more.this would reduce the need for u.s./western world investment on three fronts; financial and military/aid. when a country finds itself in a little trouble or even a whole lot, a rich guy(country) can come along and say 'you implement democracey with the aid of supioror military, we'll fund it (or what ever system you think is good) and we'll invest a truck load of cash into your country.in any situation you will have a group of people willing to be the catamite(the passive receiptant of anal sex) stand up and say this is a good idea lets go with it(the puppet presidents). the result of such actions (that benefit few people) is massive cultural changes within a nation, the need for more military assets to control those agaisnt the recent catamite actions, and the upheaval that results from massive social change. this puts the recent catamites in the position where they must remain the catamite/whore of the funding nation, this leads to more serve control which often inturn leads to terroism, although i beleive from what i read and hear in the press, mr bin lardin and friends are opposed more to the role america plays in the world, that being the one outlined above, rather than from the u.s. doing that in afganisatan, although thats whats gonna happen now, its a funny old world isn't it, you always get the oppsite of what you want?if we didn't have the crazy notion that suffering is bad and should be avioded,(who is actually avoiding suffering, it seems usually there is just a shift in who gets to suffer) maybe our politicians wouldn't have the exccuss to invade a country and liberate the poor and seemingly downtroden i mean those who are unfairly oppressed. maybe its because we have trouble accepting other people who are different from ourselves, with different values beliefs and what not.

Posted: 30th Jan 2002
{Totally irrelevant post, but you guys keep going, I find this thread very interesting}Raving Lunatic, which one are you on the video? We're talking about COL2 right?Nomad------------------Anthelionwww.anthelion.org

Posted: 30th Jan 2002
*lights a candel and starts singing John Lennon*"All we are saying... is give peace a chance"and repeat.

Teach tolerance, not competition.
Send food, not bombs.

Posted: 30th Jan 2002
*lights a candel and starts singing John Lennon*"All we are saying... is give peace a chance"and repeat.

Teach tolerance, not competition.
Send food, not bombs.

Posted: 30th Jan 2002
I have the answer!!! all's we have to do is:be considerate of other peopledon't be selfish (hard for americans)act with others in mindpretend you're the other personwalk a mile in your shoesoh wait, those are all the same things...