Forums > Social Discussion > War on Iraq
Login/Join to ParticipateBRONZE Member
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Posted:
I know there's been a lot of talk about this on HoP, and a lot of people probably dont want to talk about it.
Just wondering how many people want to stop the war?
Alice
I know there's been a lot of talk about this on HoP, and a lot of people probably dont want to talk about it.
Just wondering how many people want to stop the war?
Alice
Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...
member
142 posts
Location: bristol
142 posts
Location: bristol
Posted:
hello just my thoughts on Rozi's post about how everyday people can stop war. I think it is possible what is mostly needed is courage and conviction. War as it is waged today is an expensive buisness. There's alot of comments on economies throughout this thread, I am still yet to fully grasp exactly how economics work and how and why money is generated but it seems obvioous to me that our governments need our cash to wage war. If we want to stop war and find lasting peace we need to stop spending, stop working and stop paying our taxes, without our money people like Bush and Saddam are mearly laughable little boys.
hello just my thoughts on Rozi's post about how everyday people can stop war. I think it is possible what is mostly needed is courage and conviction. War as it is waged today is an expensive buisness. There's alot of comments on economies throughout this thread, I am still yet to fully grasp exactly how economics work and how and why money is generated but it seems obvioous to me that our governments need our cash to wage war. If we want to stop war and find lasting peace we need to stop spending, stop working and stop paying our taxes, without our money people like Bush and Saddam are mearly laughable little boys.
HOP Lord of the Pirate Admiralty
1,079 posts
Location: Canterbury, UK
1,079 posts
Location: Canterbury, UK
Posted:
I personally believe the best way to stop bush and his "advisors" is for everyone to realise the fact that HES NOT THE PRESIDENT OF THE US. He lost the votes. He is in "office" now because his cousin, who was in charge of Fox networks election coverage, declared him the winner, and then the rest of the networks decided to follow suit so that they wouldn't look slow. And we know the power of the media in the western world. He lost Florida by around 600,000 votes, NOT including all those Jeb Bush declared illegitimate cuz they shared a bday with a felon, or have a similar name to a felon, or whose NS number resembled a felons. Yes Jeb did this, he even managed to get Madison County's election supervisor struck off.
As for his advisors, i've never heard such a bunch of power hungry megalomaniacs. Every single one of his advisors either own, are on the board of, or hold massive stocks in gas and oil companies or car manufacturers. And hows this for a kick in the teeth. Your constitution clearly states that all presidential advisors must be voted in AND approved of by the people. Not a single one of them have been. Dubya just delegated them. So your own president is breaking the constitution that your country is built on. Oh dear... chances are he probably can't read it anyway cuz it seems he is unable to read and write above 4th grade level...
My point is this. If this happened is a back-water Banana Republic, the UN would have picked up the scent, and sent in forces to dispose of the corrupt government, and set up new, monitored FAIR elections to bring in a new government. We as the people of the world must petition Kofi Anaan and the UN so that they can intervene and restore democracy. This is how we, the people, can bring about a little peace and level-headedness to the world.
Please don't call me anti-American. I do have friends in Atlanta called the Halecks, who I have known since I was knee-high to a grasshopper. I'm simply anti-bush. I also have another person we could blame for stoking the fire. Mr. Tony Blair of 10 Downing St. London. I mean who's more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him. They're both just jackasses, who need a clip round the earhole.
But im serious bout the U.N. peeps. We must do something
luv to all
I personally believe the best way to stop bush and his "advisors" is for everyone to realise the fact that HES NOT THE PRESIDENT OF THE US. He lost the votes. He is in "office" now because his cousin, who was in charge of Fox networks election coverage, declared him the winner, and then the rest of the networks decided to follow suit so that they wouldn't look slow. And we know the power of the media in the western world. He lost Florida by around 600,000 votes, NOT including all those Jeb Bush declared illegitimate cuz they shared a bday with a felon, or have a similar name to a felon, or whose NS number resembled a felons. Yes Jeb did this, he even managed to get Madison County's election supervisor struck off.
As for his advisors, i've never heard such a bunch of power hungry megalomaniacs. Every single one of his advisors either own, are on the board of, or hold massive stocks in gas and oil companies or car manufacturers. And hows this for a kick in the teeth. Your constitution clearly states that all presidential advisors must be voted in AND approved of by the people. Not a single one of them have been. Dubya just delegated them. So your own president is breaking the constitution that your country is built on. Oh dear... chances are he probably can't read it anyway cuz it seems he is unable to read and write above 4th grade level...
My point is this. If this happened is a back-water Banana Republic, the UN would have picked up the scent, and sent in forces to dispose of the corrupt government, and set up new, monitored FAIR elections to bring in a new government. We as the people of the world must petition Kofi Anaan and the UN so that they can intervene and restore democracy. This is how we, the people, can bring about a little peace and level-headedness to the world.
Please don't call me anti-American. I do have friends in Atlanta called the Halecks, who I have known since I was knee-high to a grasshopper. I'm simply anti-bush. I also have another person we could blame for stoking the fire. Mr. Tony Blair of 10 Downing St. London. I mean who's more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him. They're both just jackasses, who need a clip round the earhole.
But im serious bout the U.N. peeps. We must do something
luv to all
D.B.
X x X x X
Ship off the starboard! sound general quarters! noise and light discipline! man the cannons! GET ME THE RUM!
Master of the Free Hug Program
BRONZE Member
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Posted:
I am strongly against the war. Before i start putting my opinion please understand that i'm not against any country personally. I am just stating my opinions, and observations.
I think that Bush is doing it for, whatever reason (economy...) and Blair is only going along to keep close connections with America.
Yes maybe Saddam is hiding weapons of mass destruction, and maybe he is ruling Iraq by dictatorship...
I think we should let the weapon's inspectors finish their job properly, and find someway of sorting things out. Like mention in this thread before, America has weapons of mass destruction no one is making them un-arm. I personally think that Saddam has a good reason for having the weapons, if he has some. What happens in America or England go against Iraq (like they are). Maybe if the high powered countries all disarmed, or just got rid of weapons of mass destrution than the other's will follow?
As for Saddam ruling using a dictatorship...Well it seems democracy doesn't work that well! What is supposedly a democracy doesn't seem to be acting like one! As we saw in Russia and Germany a dictatorship doesn't seem to work well either. Communism isn't without it's faults either (Russia). So it seems no type of government works without its faults. Its up to a country to decide how they want to be run. Maybe it would be hard to go against their government but how do we know that the people of Iraq dont like Saddam? different cultures have different values and ideas. It seems to be the Western cultures and such telling everyone else how to run their countries!
I also other reasons why i dont want UK, USA et al. going to war. I have friends in the military i dont want getting killed, i dont want civilians getting killed (no matter what country their from) and in war situations it's almost impossible for civilians not to get killed.
Why should "normal" people have to get involved just because a handfull of government people disagree on views?
Love and to all people. I understand we will all have different views and it is interesting to see what people have to say on such a matter that will effect us all.
Alice
I am strongly against the war. Before i start putting my opinion please understand that i'm not against any country personally. I am just stating my opinions, and observations.
I think that Bush is doing it for, whatever reason (economy...) and Blair is only going along to keep close connections with America.
Yes maybe Saddam is hiding weapons of mass destruction, and maybe he is ruling Iraq by dictatorship...
I think we should let the weapon's inspectors finish their job properly, and find someway of sorting things out. Like mention in this thread before, America has weapons of mass destruction no one is making them un-arm. I personally think that Saddam has a good reason for having the weapons, if he has some. What happens in America or England go against Iraq (like they are). Maybe if the high powered countries all disarmed, or just got rid of weapons of mass destrution than the other's will follow?
As for Saddam ruling using a dictatorship...Well it seems democracy doesn't work that well! What is supposedly a democracy doesn't seem to be acting like one! As we saw in Russia and Germany a dictatorship doesn't seem to work well either. Communism isn't without it's faults either (Russia). So it seems no type of government works without its faults. Its up to a country to decide how they want to be run. Maybe it would be hard to go against their government but how do we know that the people of Iraq dont like Saddam? different cultures have different values and ideas. It seems to be the Western cultures and such telling everyone else how to run their countries!
I also other reasons why i dont want UK, USA et al. going to war. I have friends in the military i dont want getting killed, i dont want civilians getting killed (no matter what country their from) and in war situations it's almost impossible for civilians not to get killed.
Why should "normal" people have to get involved just because a handfull of government people disagree on views?
Love and to all people. I understand we will all have different views and it is interesting to see what people have to say on such a matter that will effect us all.
Alice
Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Feel free to be anti-Bush, I do find your theorys laughable though. If you want bush out of office, find out how to do it BY LAW. Do it the right way and nobody can say anything bad about you or anyone else.
Jim, stop paying your taxes and not only will you go to jail, but NYC wont be able to eat or live, fire fighters and police officers wont be able to feed their children.
I am sure you didnt think of that, heck I am quite sure you didnt think of any reprecussions.
Like I said before, there are no easy answers.
Man I wish Dom was here, I would like his view point on this. I know he doesnt like Bush too much but the way he thinks actually presents a challenge to me.
He thinks, the majority assume.
Feel free to be anti-Bush, I do find your theorys laughable though. If you want bush out of office, find out how to do it BY LAW. Do it the right way and nobody can say anything bad about you or anyone else.
Jim, stop paying your taxes and not only will you go to jail, but NYC wont be able to eat or live, fire fighters and police officers wont be able to feed their children.
I am sure you didnt think of that, heck I am quite sure you didnt think of any reprecussions.
Like I said before, there are no easy answers.
Man I wish Dom was here, I would like his view point on this. I know he doesnt like Bush too much but the way he thinks actually presents a challenge to me.
He thinks, the majority assume.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
member
142 posts
Location: bristol
142 posts
Location: bristol
Posted:
I don't want to get to argumentive right now Ray as it usually ends up a little bit futile but if I don't pay my taxes I may go to jail yes I won't die the world wont end, luckly the inland revenue usually seem to have trouble finding me so I'm not too bothered.
If I don't pay my taxes people will still try and put out fires.
Food will still grow.
People will still have a sense of right and wrong and maybe we'ed figure out a better system than the police and courts and governments who feel the need to wage war on not only each other but also on an inocent 'tax paying' populace.
I don't want to get to argumentive right now Ray as it usually ends up a little bit futile but if I don't pay my taxes I may go to jail yes I won't die the world wont end, luckly the inland revenue usually seem to have trouble finding me so I'm not too bothered.
If I don't pay my taxes people will still try and put out fires.
Food will still grow.
People will still have a sense of right and wrong and maybe we'ed figure out a better system than the police and courts and governments who feel the need to wage war on not only each other but also on an inocent 'tax paying' populace.
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
If people stopped spending money, stopped paying taxes, where will the money come from? Those new IR helmets that firefighters use now, how will you buy more?
$3000 + dollar antibiotics, who could afford those?
There is alot of things that happen when you stop supporting the only thing that supports you.
Please understand that I am not trying to fight anyone. Just to show another angle on the subject at hand. An angle that is often overlooked.
[ 04. February 2003, 02:45: Message edited by: Raymund ]
If people stopped spending money, stopped paying taxes, where will the money come from? Those new IR helmets that firefighters use now, how will you buy more?
$3000 + dollar antibiotics, who could afford those?
There is alot of things that happen when you stop supporting the only thing that supports you.
Please understand that I am not trying to fight anyone. Just to show another angle on the subject at hand. An angle that is often overlooked.
[ 04. February 2003, 02:45: Message edited by: Raymund ]
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
My opinion on the war is... I don't know.
But there are a few things I'd like to add to the debate. The first is that the motivations of Bush and Blair are immaterial. I don't care whether Bush is doing it for votes/oil/fun whatever. The important matter is what the effects of a war will be, not the personal reasons for starting it.
Second, the war has not started, and still might not start at all. Iraq is being threatened with Military action if it does not give up its nuclear and biological weapons (and there is overwhelming evidence that they DO exist). The war will not happen if Iraq complies. If anyone has ideas for trying to persuade Mr Hussein to give up these weapons by other means than threats and violence, I'd be very interested to hear them.
Claiming Iraq has rights to have such weapons if America has them (which in the case of Biological weapons, it does not) is not valid to my POV. The USAs foreign policies may not be perfect, or anywhere near perfect, but in terms of social responsibility and human rights the USA can be trusted with those weapons. Iraq has a long history of unchecked aggression against its neighbours, and a total lack of respect for human life. Fuck moral relativism and 'who are we to judge'. You don't let people hold sharp objects if they can't be trusted with them, or is that an infringement of their 'rights'?
On the point of moral relativism, democracy and "Western cultures... telling everyone else how to run their countries". Our politicians can indeed be two-faced lying bastards. They don't use torture. They don't kill people, and their families, for their political views. Saddam Hussein does both of these without compunction. Again I say Fuck moral relativism.
We are right, he is wrong.
So thats why I'm not against a war that could very well topple a regime that treats its people like shit.
The reason I'm not FOR a war either is because of the downside to all wars. Lots of people will die. Its callous, but whether or not a war is "worth it" depends on how many people, and how highly you value each life lost. Personally I think that if only ten people died, and Iraq's regime destroyed, the war would have been "worth it". If a million were killed for the same result, it wouldn't be "worth it". Anywhere inbetween, and I'm glad I'm not the one making the decision.
One final thing: What are people's thoughts on the outcome of the war in Afghanistan. Was it "worth" the lives lost to remove the Taleban from power?
My opinion on the war is... I don't know.
But there are a few things I'd like to add to the debate. The first is that the motivations of Bush and Blair are immaterial. I don't care whether Bush is doing it for votes/oil/fun whatever. The important matter is what the effects of a war will be, not the personal reasons for starting it.
Second, the war has not started, and still might not start at all. Iraq is being threatened with Military action if it does not give up its nuclear and biological weapons (and there is overwhelming evidence that they DO exist). The war will not happen if Iraq complies. If anyone has ideas for trying to persuade Mr Hussein to give up these weapons by other means than threats and violence, I'd be very interested to hear them.
Claiming Iraq has rights to have such weapons if America has them (which in the case of Biological weapons, it does not) is not valid to my POV. The USAs foreign policies may not be perfect, or anywhere near perfect, but in terms of social responsibility and human rights the USA can be trusted with those weapons. Iraq has a long history of unchecked aggression against its neighbours, and a total lack of respect for human life. Fuck moral relativism and 'who are we to judge'. You don't let people hold sharp objects if they can't be trusted with them, or is that an infringement of their 'rights'?
On the point of moral relativism, democracy and "Western cultures... telling everyone else how to run their countries". Our politicians can indeed be two-faced lying bastards. They don't use torture. They don't kill people, and their families, for their political views. Saddam Hussein does both of these without compunction. Again I say Fuck moral relativism.
We are right, he is wrong.
So thats why I'm not against a war that could very well topple a regime that treats its people like shit.
The reason I'm not FOR a war either is because of the downside to all wars. Lots of people will die. Its callous, but whether or not a war is "worth it" depends on how many people, and how highly you value each life lost. Personally I think that if only ten people died, and Iraq's regime destroyed, the war would have been "worth it". If a million were killed for the same result, it wouldn't be "worth it". Anywhere inbetween, and I'm glad I'm not the one making the decision.
One final thing: What are people's thoughts on the outcome of the war in Afghanistan. Was it "worth" the lives lost to remove the Taleban from power?
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Hmm another interesting view.
Hmm another interesting view.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
member
142 posts
Location: bristol
142 posts
Location: bristol
Posted:
helmets are not made out of money though. I agree with you Ray when you say that if people don't want war they should remove Bush through the law but not through the laws of governments or economies or states. Do you see what I mean? Last week you started the thread about military pay. Now I'm not saying I think you should get payed more or less but the resolutness of peoples actions if money is not involved is a very strong voice. If peoples' will was never influenced by how much money they'd gain then the world would be quite different. I know I don't have all the answers and maybe some of my sugestions are 'impractical' or 'unrealistic' but I really wish people would use a little more imagination when concieving our world. Life contains more posibilities than a ballot paper.
helmets are not made out of money though. I agree with you Ray when you say that if people don't want war they should remove Bush through the law but not through the laws of governments or economies or states. Do you see what I mean? Last week you started the thread about military pay. Now I'm not saying I think you should get payed more or less but the resolutness of peoples actions if money is not involved is a very strong voice. If peoples' will was never influenced by how much money they'd gain then the world would be quite different. I know I don't have all the answers and maybe some of my sugestions are 'impractical' or 'unrealistic' but I really wish people would use a little more imagination when concieving our world. Life contains more posibilities than a ballot paper.
BRONZE Member
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Posted:
The war of Taleban was completely ussless because as soon as OBL found out about the US bombing's were going ahead he retreated to Pakistan.
As soon as the British and US forces contingent leave Afganistan the Taleban regime will grow again.
If the war on Iraq isn't because Bush wants to grow his economy why is he taking over the biggest oil field in Iraq? and why is he an Allie(sp?) to Kuwait and still planning to take over their oil fields?
Alice
(why can't we all live happily together? )
The war of Taleban was completely ussless because as soon as OBL found out about the US bombing's were going ahead he retreated to Pakistan.
As soon as the British and US forces contingent leave Afganistan the Taleban regime will grow again.
If the war on Iraq isn't because Bush wants to grow his economy why is he taking over the biggest oil field in Iraq? and why is he an Allie(sp?) to Kuwait and still planning to take over their oil fields?
Alice
(why can't we all live happily together? )
Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...
BRONZE Member
member
577 posts
Location: Berlin, Germany
member
577 posts
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posted:
Just a warning, this is really long!
I've been doing a lot of research on this and read a really interesting article that basically really broke down a lot of the underlying issues. All I can say is that its not as simple as Bush wanting oil or trying to deflect attention away from the sinking US economy. There are a lot of things at stake here.
Yes I am opposed one hundred percent to the war. I am opposed to the way that the United States has blatently announced that it intends to go to war no matter what the UN security council says. I am opposed to the way the US government is trying to split Europe because France and Germany have repeatedly voiced their commitment to opposing the war. I am oppposed to the way the US media spins everything so that its citizens are repeatedly misinformed and manipulated. If they told things as they were, people might not have been so surprised by September 11. I am opposed to US imperialism and their refusal to call it what it is. Instead they just hide behind the rhetoric of making the world safe for democracy.
I'm not saying that that's not what a lot of people feel they are doing. Ray, I think you and other armed forces personnel especially are involved based on your ideological commitments, but I honestly don't think that the United States is the knight in shining armor it claims to be and maybe that upsets me the most. I feel that they are sacrificing innocent people for a false cause. If they said "Yes, we're trying to take apart a defective government, instill a new one and working on building our own empire in the process." that would be one thing but instead they're acting like there's nothing in it for them and this is all just about what's morally right. I'm sorry, but human rights abuses and government oppression has been going on a long time in Iraq and all over the world and the US only pays attention to it now because there's something in it for them. As a another example, women in Afghanistan were severely abused for years before September 11, but it only got media attention when it fit into the agenda of trashing Al Queda. Not surprisingly, I haven't heard anything recently about this. What? Did all these suffering women suddenly pick up and leave all the men that were oppressing them and now they're living in some desert lesbian community?
Sorry got a little off track. I think all I can say is that yes, I think the whole thing is wrong, but who's going to stop the states? And if they do stop the states, there still is the question of how to pacify the whole middle east, not just Iraq. Oh, and not to anal retentive, but if people are going to talk about Islamic terrorist groups, could they please clarify that they are Fundamentalist Islamic terrorist groups. I don't think its really fair to the millions of peaceful Islamic people to group them as such. Thanks.
Just a warning, this is really long!
I've been doing a lot of research on this and read a really interesting article that basically really broke down a lot of the underlying issues. All I can say is that its not as simple as Bush wanting oil or trying to deflect attention away from the sinking US economy. There are a lot of things at stake here.
Yes I am opposed one hundred percent to the war. I am opposed to the way that the United States has blatently announced that it intends to go to war no matter what the UN security council says. I am opposed to the way the US government is trying to split Europe because France and Germany have repeatedly voiced their commitment to opposing the war. I am oppposed to the way the US media spins everything so that its citizens are repeatedly misinformed and manipulated. If they told things as they were, people might not have been so surprised by September 11. I am opposed to US imperialism and their refusal to call it what it is. Instead they just hide behind the rhetoric of making the world safe for democracy.
I'm not saying that that's not what a lot of people feel they are doing. Ray, I think you and other armed forces personnel especially are involved based on your ideological commitments, but I honestly don't think that the United States is the knight in shining armor it claims to be and maybe that upsets me the most. I feel that they are sacrificing innocent people for a false cause. If they said "Yes, we're trying to take apart a defective government, instill a new one and working on building our own empire in the process." that would be one thing but instead they're acting like there's nothing in it for them and this is all just about what's morally right. I'm sorry, but human rights abuses and government oppression has been going on a long time in Iraq and all over the world and the US only pays attention to it now because there's something in it for them. As a another example, women in Afghanistan were severely abused for years before September 11, but it only got media attention when it fit into the agenda of trashing Al Queda. Not surprisingly, I haven't heard anything recently about this. What? Did all these suffering women suddenly pick up and leave all the men that were oppressing them and now they're living in some desert lesbian community?
Sorry got a little off track. I think all I can say is that yes, I think the whole thing is wrong, but who's going to stop the states? And if they do stop the states, there still is the question of how to pacify the whole middle east, not just Iraq. Oh, and not to anal retentive, but if people are going to talk about Islamic terrorist groups, could they please clarify that they are Fundamentalist Islamic terrorist groups. I don't think its really fair to the millions of peaceful Islamic people to group them as such. Thanks.
Beauty is the conscious sum of all our perversions.-Salvador DaliHope without action is hopeless.
BRONZE Member
member
577 posts
Location: Berlin, Germany
member
577 posts
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posted:
Oh yeah, I do have a the petition for a peaceful resolution to the UN in my e-mail box. If anyone wants me to send it to them, PM or e-mail me.
Oh yeah, I do have a the petition for a peaceful resolution to the UN in my e-mail box. If anyone wants me to send it to them, PM or e-mail me.
Beauty is the conscious sum of all our perversions.-Salvador DaliHope without action is hopeless.
BRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Posted:
I was watching Bremner, Bird and Fortune last night (A satirical impressionist show, for those who don't know) and it featured the following line:
Blair to Bush: The great thing about a democracy is that everyone has a say
Bush to Blair: That's true, and the great thing about being is a leader is you don't have to listen.
It seems strange to me that initially, Bush et al were fighting on the side of democracy. But now they (he?) are ignoring everyones protests, including the UN's, and ploughing on with what they, the individual, want.
Doesn't seem very democratic to me...
I was watching Bremner, Bird and Fortune last night (A satirical impressionist show, for those who don't know) and it featured the following line:
Blair to Bush: The great thing about a democracy is that everyone has a say
Bush to Blair: That's true, and the great thing about being is a leader is you don't have to listen.
It seems strange to me that initially, Bush et al were fighting on the side of democracy. But now they (he?) are ignoring everyones protests, including the UN's, and ploughing on with what they, the individual, want.
Doesn't seem very democratic to me...
Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude
member
12 posts
Location: europe
12 posts
Location: europe
Posted:
oil,oil,oil......for me it can't be more obvious .....so...lets drain motherearth for oil...it's only her blood....(i hope she's gonna strike back..soon..)
sorry....I just amazing that we are so fuc#ing stupid....
oil,oil,oil......for me it can't be more obvious .....so...lets drain motherearth for oil...it's only her blood....(i hope she's gonna strike back..soon..)
sorry....I just amazing that we are so fuc#ing stupid....
member
531 posts
531 posts
Posted:
cosmicpeace,you just said what I have wanted to say for awhile.I think it would be great if mother nature would finally say "ENOUGH!" and punish us all for being so reckless and arrogant.
Ray do you honestly believe that FDR wouldn't let it happen?Neither one of us knows for sure but if the possibility didn't exist why would there be a conspiracy theory about it.And last I knew reports have been leaked that there was notification 8 hours in advance of the attack.Granted that might not be enough time to move a whole fleet but at least they could have been prepared.Also bear in mind the motivation.America at the time was dead-set against fighting in another world war.I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong but please acknowledge the possibility.Here's a so you can try not to get mad at me.
Also how do you remove someone from office by law when they broke the law getting into the position they are in?
I wouldn't be so quick to assume this war is about oil because if that were the case we would be going to war with Venezuala,who we get more oil from than the entire middle east,as well.Like I said before,there is more here than meets the eye.
Someone said the U.S. doesn't have biological weapons,how do you know?We could have Santa Claus locked up in a military prison for all you know.I agree that a bit to many assumptions are made in this day and age.Another reason I am neither for or against.I don't have the wisdom needed to make these decisions.But I don't feel our government does either.Where is Master Yoda when you need him?
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[ 04. February 2003, 13:28: Message edited by: poiaholic22 ]
cosmicpeace,you just said what I have wanted to say for awhile.I think it would be great if mother nature would finally say "ENOUGH!" and punish us all for being so reckless and arrogant.
Ray do you honestly believe that FDR wouldn't let it happen?Neither one of us knows for sure but if the possibility didn't exist why would there be a conspiracy theory about it.And last I knew reports have been leaked that there was notification 8 hours in advance of the attack.Granted that might not be enough time to move a whole fleet but at least they could have been prepared.Also bear in mind the motivation.America at the time was dead-set against fighting in another world war.I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong but please acknowledge the possibility.Here's a so you can try not to get mad at me.
Also how do you remove someone from office by law when they broke the law getting into the position they are in?
I wouldn't be so quick to assume this war is about oil because if that were the case we would be going to war with Venezuala,who we get more oil from than the entire middle east,as well.Like I said before,there is more here than meets the eye.
Someone said the U.S. doesn't have biological weapons,how do you know?We could have Santa Claus locked up in a military prison for all you know.I agree that a bit to many assumptions are made in this day and age.Another reason I am neither for or against.I don't have the wisdom needed to make these decisions.But I don't feel our government does either.Where is Master Yoda when you need him?
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[ 04. February 2003, 13:28: Message edited by: poiaholic22 ]
member
131 posts
131 posts
Posted:
Simian wrote:
"The war will not happen if Iraq complies. If anyone has ideas for trying to persuade Mr Hussein to give up these weapons by other means than threats and violence, I'd be very interested to hear them."
Last year when this situation was hotting up, there was a news report on the radio that a beautiful Italian soap star had made an offer to Saddam that she would sleep with him if he promised not to go to war. The announcer summised that that would make her the root of all evil.
Got to admit, I did have a chuckle at that one. Probably my only one for this mess, hope it made you smile.
Simian wrote:
"The war will not happen if Iraq complies. If anyone has ideas for trying to persuade Mr Hussein to give up these weapons by other means than threats and violence, I'd be very interested to hear them."
Last year when this situation was hotting up, there was a news report on the radio that a beautiful Italian soap star had made an offer to Saddam that she would sleep with him if he promised not to go to war. The announcer summised that that would make her the root of all evil.
Got to admit, I did have a chuckle at that one. Probably my only one for this mess, hope it made you smile.
veteran
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
Posted:
I think its very interesting how many people a day die due to smoking related disease. How many people are killed by drunk drivers. How many people SUFFER day by day to allow us to have this 'moral' debate and put forward our 'opinions' our 'points of view.'
The war lately has been far from my mind. My main concern is myself and the world I find around me. Having said that if this 'war' (which might I again reiterate what many have said in that it hasnt actually started yet) is what you find around you then i understand that thats what you have to deal with.
A war can be fought in many ways. I think that everyone every day has a constant war within themselves. Some, I fear, might not even be aware that that is them inside there! Do you ever say hello to yourself or ask yourself how you are? If you dont then why are you worried about someone in a country far far from yours...
I am not saying that we shouldnt care... en contraire! caring is an essential part of my life. I just dont see why we must dwell on the negativity (or positivity for some) of the prospect of going to war. Right now people are not in the position to override a governmental descision. I say this because our voice is not heard. Your voice, and everyones, including myself until we begin listening to ourselves inside.
Can we change the past? NO!
Can we alter the present? maybe?!
Can we write our future? YES!
but you only write what you see and project upon yourself. Walk the balance within many things. Similar in shape and form to that which I have come to know as Tao; this discipline or actually art (cause we are all artists remember) helps the realization that all is going according to the plan. Whatever plan that might be in past present of future its still the same. Oh and metaphisics. Perception = creation or realization. Percieve it and it twill appear...
Why talk of war and dispute the endless posibilities if you can talk to yourself and find a way out of the constant more important world within your own being...
to be is to be whatever feeling it brings you can be assured that if you are who you are the world will never let your assumptions down.
create art and love
war is for suckers
love and hugs
drome
I think its very interesting how many people a day die due to smoking related disease. How many people are killed by drunk drivers. How many people SUFFER day by day to allow us to have this 'moral' debate and put forward our 'opinions' our 'points of view.'
The war lately has been far from my mind. My main concern is myself and the world I find around me. Having said that if this 'war' (which might I again reiterate what many have said in that it hasnt actually started yet) is what you find around you then i understand that thats what you have to deal with.
A war can be fought in many ways. I think that everyone every day has a constant war within themselves. Some, I fear, might not even be aware that that is them inside there! Do you ever say hello to yourself or ask yourself how you are? If you dont then why are you worried about someone in a country far far from yours...
I am not saying that we shouldnt care... en contraire! caring is an essential part of my life. I just dont see why we must dwell on the negativity (or positivity for some) of the prospect of going to war. Right now people are not in the position to override a governmental descision. I say this because our voice is not heard. Your voice, and everyones, including myself until we begin listening to ourselves inside.
Can we change the past? NO!
Can we alter the present? maybe?!
Can we write our future? YES!
but you only write what you see and project upon yourself. Walk the balance within many things. Similar in shape and form to that which I have come to know as Tao; this discipline or actually art (cause we are all artists remember) helps the realization that all is going according to the plan. Whatever plan that might be in past present of future its still the same. Oh and metaphisics. Perception = creation or realization. Percieve it and it twill appear...
Why talk of war and dispute the endless posibilities if you can talk to yourself and find a way out of the constant more important world within your own being...
to be is to be whatever feeling it brings you can be assured that if you are who you are the world will never let your assumptions down.
create art and love
war is for suckers
love and hugs
drome
JUGGLEwithyourmind!
member
83 posts
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
83 posts
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posted:
There's going to be a war. Don't bother hoping that it still might be averted - it's not going to happen. There will be war because nothing and no-one can stop it now. The US and UK will not back down, regardless of whether they can rally more support from the UN or not, and regardless of any evidence of a material breach of UN resolutions they uncover.
Which reminds me, anyone else notice the slick way they moved the goalposts when weapons inspectors failed to find anything substantial? Suddenly, the inspectors weren't there to find anything. Oh no. Saddam had to show them everything they needed to see, otherwise he would not be co-operating fully and thus breaching the resolutions. Can someone explain that to me please?
Scenario #1: Saddam shows the inspectors a huge hidden cache of chemical and biological weapons. He is not supposed to have these weapons any more - a clear breach of UN resolutions. US and UK forces immediately move into Iraq.
Scenario #2: Saddam does not show the inspectors any hidden cache of weapons, stating that such weapons do not exist as they been disposed of in line with the UN resolutions he has agreed to. This is reinforced by weapons inspector's failure to unearth any evidence of such weapons. Somehow, though, this is taken as evidence that Saddam is not co-operating fully - a clear breach of UN resolutions. US and UK forces immediately move into Iraq.
Farcical, isn't it?
Well, we'll all see the truth soon enough, so if anyone feels like insulting me for this post, go ahead But first make sure you have the guts to come back later and admit you were wrong
On the other hand, if it turns out I'm talking crap, you'll have my sincere apologies for wasting your time with my inane babbling
EDIT: Noticed a couple of other points people made that I wanted to comment on. Someone said that Iraqi officials had said they would fight a war only within the borders of Iraq, in fact they said the exact opposite of this - they explicitly stated that an attack launched from any country would result in Iraq defending themselves against that country, the implied country being Kuwait and the implied meaning being in line with the general military definition of "defence".
On the subject of the USA's position on WMDs... none of us can prove that the US has chemical or biological weapons any more than we can prove that Iraq does.. umm..
[ 04. February 2003, 17:52: Message edited by: Kev ]
There's going to be a war. Don't bother hoping that it still might be averted - it's not going to happen. There will be war because nothing and no-one can stop it now. The US and UK will not back down, regardless of whether they can rally more support from the UN or not, and regardless of any evidence of a material breach of UN resolutions they uncover.
Which reminds me, anyone else notice the slick way they moved the goalposts when weapons inspectors failed to find anything substantial? Suddenly, the inspectors weren't there to find anything. Oh no. Saddam had to show them everything they needed to see, otherwise he would not be co-operating fully and thus breaching the resolutions. Can someone explain that to me please?
Scenario #1: Saddam shows the inspectors a huge hidden cache of chemical and biological weapons. He is not supposed to have these weapons any more - a clear breach of UN resolutions. US and UK forces immediately move into Iraq.
Scenario #2: Saddam does not show the inspectors any hidden cache of weapons, stating that such weapons do not exist as they been disposed of in line with the UN resolutions he has agreed to. This is reinforced by weapons inspector's failure to unearth any evidence of such weapons. Somehow, though, this is taken as evidence that Saddam is not co-operating fully - a clear breach of UN resolutions. US and UK forces immediately move into Iraq.
Farcical, isn't it?
Well, we'll all see the truth soon enough, so if anyone feels like insulting me for this post, go ahead But first make sure you have the guts to come back later and admit you were wrong
On the other hand, if it turns out I'm talking crap, you'll have my sincere apologies for wasting your time with my inane babbling
EDIT: Noticed a couple of other points people made that I wanted to comment on. Someone said that Iraqi officials had said they would fight a war only within the borders of Iraq, in fact they said the exact opposite of this - they explicitly stated that an attack launched from any country would result in Iraq defending themselves against that country, the implied country being Kuwait and the implied meaning being in line with the general military definition of "defence".
On the subject of the USA's position on WMDs... none of us can prove that the US has chemical or biological weapons any more than we can prove that Iraq does.. umm..
[ 04. February 2003, 17:52: Message edited by: Kev ]
- Honk if you love peace and quiet!
veteran
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
Posted:
i wonder whether my whole opinion on this whole war thing these days is ever going to be considered...
ah well serves me right for presenting an 'alternative' point of view...
drome
oh and Kev I wont come back and tell you that you were right or that I was wrong but I will tell you now that you are exibiting symptoms of an APOV! (Simian will surely figure that one out )
ah well you can only do your bit eh!?
i wonder whether my whole opinion on this whole war thing these days is ever going to be considered...
ah well serves me right for presenting an 'alternative' point of view...
drome
oh and Kev I wont come back and tell you that you were right or that I was wrong but I will tell you now that you are exibiting symptoms of an APOV! (Simian will surely figure that one out )
ah well you can only do your bit eh!?
JUGGLEwithyourmind!
member
83 posts
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
83 posts
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posted:
My apologies Dromepixie, I never got down to your post before posting mine.. this late at night I have to get my thoughts down on paper (or screen) asap or they just go
For what its worth I agree with what you said entirely, but maybe I'm just too cynical to live by it
Sadly 'APOV' is lost on me at this ungodly hour, but I think I get the gist
Others seem to be ok with displaying what I consider to be incredible arrogance at all times, so I figure I can indulge myself now and then
My apologies Dromepixie, I never got down to your post before posting mine.. this late at night I have to get my thoughts down on paper (or screen) asap or they just go
For what its worth I agree with what you said entirely, but maybe I'm just too cynical to live by it
Sadly 'APOV' is lost on me at this ungodly hour, but I think I get the gist
Others seem to be ok with displaying what I consider to be incredible arrogance at all times, so I figure I can indulge myself now and then
- Honk if you love peace and quiet!
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Jim, what laws will you remove Bush with. You got to understand that nobody gives a damn about your views, they give a damn about what is on paper.
There will always be rich and poor, it can not be stopped. There will always be a way to pay someone either it is gold or that nice leather belt that you have.
Pink Poi, no offence, but you have no clue where OBL is or why Bush is doing anything. Nobody but Bush knows why he is pursuing this, and nobody on this site knows where OBL is. Honestly I am not even sure that 99% of AQ knows where he is.
Durbs, not everyone is protesting.
What would you do if someone picketed the picketers? What about a Pro War demonstration?
Poiaholic22 I am not mad at you, I just think your a moron for even suggesting that theory. I laughed at you.
What next? Are you going to tell me that the civil war was a failed attempt to boost the cost of slaves?
Bush didnt break the law, personally I feel he got in on a techinicality.
The US does have weapons of mass destruction, some are getting destroyed some arnt. Since WWII has the US used any such weapons? NO!
Has countries like Somalia, Iraq and Russia? Yes
Just because you have the ability to kill, it doesnt mean that you will.
I hope everyday that I dont have to pack my stuff and throw a few hundred weapons in racks to be shipped off to our deployment zone.
I hope everyday that I can take leave and go see Rozi.
If you loose hope then there is nothing left.
War can be adverted, and by the way... There was proof of chemical weapons that the inspecters found/were shown.
Jim, what laws will you remove Bush with. You got to understand that nobody gives a damn about your views, they give a damn about what is on paper.
There will always be rich and poor, it can not be stopped. There will always be a way to pay someone either it is gold or that nice leather belt that you have.
Pink Poi, no offence, but you have no clue where OBL is or why Bush is doing anything. Nobody but Bush knows why he is pursuing this, and nobody on this site knows where OBL is. Honestly I am not even sure that 99% of AQ knows where he is.
Durbs, not everyone is protesting.
What would you do if someone picketed the picketers? What about a Pro War demonstration?
Poiaholic22 I am not mad at you, I just think your a moron for even suggesting that theory. I laughed at you.
What next? Are you going to tell me that the civil war was a failed attempt to boost the cost of slaves?
Bush didnt break the law, personally I feel he got in on a techinicality.
The US does have weapons of mass destruction, some are getting destroyed some arnt. Since WWII has the US used any such weapons? NO!
Has countries like Somalia, Iraq and Russia? Yes
Just because you have the ability to kill, it doesnt mean that you will.
I hope everyday that I dont have to pack my stuff and throw a few hundred weapons in racks to be shipped off to our deployment zone.
I hope everyday that I can take leave and go see Rozi.
If you loose hope then there is nothing left.
War can be adverted, and by the way... There was proof of chemical weapons that the inspecters found/were shown.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
Just a quickie
One last thing, some of the media is saying the US are going against the wishes of "Europe", which is just bullshit really. They're going against the wishes of France and Germany. No other European country has expressed anything other than agreement with the US stance against Iraq.
ok, so maybe it wasn't that much of a quickie
Just a quickie
quote:True. But ending human rights abuse and government oppression is a good thing, no matter what the motive is.
Originally posted by Kali:
I'm sorry, but human rights abuses and government oppression has been going on a long time in Iraq and all over the world and the US only pays attention to it now because there's something in it for them.
quote:I remember seeing reports about terrible treatment of women under the Taleban on a number of occasions long before September 11. And whats happened to them? Well, Afghan women are now allowed employment, and don't get beaten for not wearing burkhas in public. I'm not saying that Afghanistan is equal right paradise now, but its a hell of a lot better now than it was.
Kali again...As a another example, women in Afghanistan were severely abused for years before September 11, but it only got media attention when it fit into the agenda of trashing Al Queda. Not surprisingly, I haven't heard anything recently about this. What? Did all these suffering women suddenly pick up and leave all the men that were oppressing them and now they're living in some desert lesbian community?
One last thing, some of the media is saying the US are going against the wishes of "Europe", which is just bullshit really. They're going against the wishes of France and Germany. No other European country has expressed anything other than agreement with the US stance against Iraq.
ok, so maybe it wasn't that much of a quickie
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
member
129 posts
Location: nodnoL
129 posts
Location: nodnoL
Posted:
hmmm...aarrrggghh...bbblleeugghh...wallla wallly f'tang......NI! this is still doing my head in.
why is america (oh and bush's bum chum blair) goign to war at all?
is it a) to get the weapons? in that case...why dont we also declare war on..umn let me see.....america, the UK, france, gremany, korea, china, russia, australia, south africa....get the point yet? why not get rid of all weapons on the planet? why not blow up the enire planet and move to the moon?and make sure no weapons came as well!
b) to end 'the merciless dictatorship of a power hungry tyrant'......um...what gives america (ok ok...and the Uk) the right to go in and stop a country's way of life.
i still think the best way to stop the war is to (as i have said before) get hussain, blair, bush et al. around a table and get them all very very stoned. that way they can think properly and not hide behind the image they try to uphold for the 'benefit'of their country. people can finally start being truthful and honest with each other at last.
hmmm...aarrrggghh...bbblleeugghh...wallla wallly f'tang......NI! this is still doing my head in.
why is america (oh and bush's bum chum blair) goign to war at all?
is it a) to get the weapons? in that case...why dont we also declare war on..umn let me see.....america, the UK, france, gremany, korea, china, russia, australia, south africa....get the point yet? why not get rid of all weapons on the planet? why not blow up the enire planet and move to the moon?and make sure no weapons came as well!
b) to end 'the merciless dictatorship of a power hungry tyrant'......um...what gives america (ok ok...and the Uk) the right to go in and stop a country's way of life.
i still think the best way to stop the war is to (as i have said before) get hussain, blair, bush et al. around a table and get them all very very stoned. that way they can think properly and not hide behind the image they try to uphold for the 'benefit'of their country. people can finally start being truthful and honest with each other at last.
erm...this is only a temp account until i get home and get the password to my usual account...sorry (itsa still the same flipping wierdo though)
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
ok then John
a) america, the UK, france, gremany, korea, china, russia, australia, south africa haven't invaded and annexed land for themselves in the past 10 years or so. Why not get rid of all weapons on the planet? That would be good. You might find its a bit tricky though. Keeping them out of the hands of brutal megalomaniacs would be a good start though (Don't even start about GWB. Saddam is several leagues beyond him in the brutality stakes).
b) what gives anyone the right to go in and stop anyone's way of life? Mass murderers and peadophiles just have different ideas about whats acceptable. Who are we to judge? Bowl Locks.
but you're bang on about the walli walla f'tang stuff.
ok then John
a) america, the UK, france, gremany, korea, china, russia, australia, south africa haven't invaded and annexed land for themselves in the past 10 years or so. Why not get rid of all weapons on the planet? That would be good. You might find its a bit tricky though. Keeping them out of the hands of brutal megalomaniacs would be a good start though (Don't even start about GWB. Saddam is several leagues beyond him in the brutality stakes).
b) what gives anyone the right to go in and stop anyone's way of life? Mass murderers and peadophiles just have different ideas about whats acceptable. Who are we to judge? Bowl Locks.
but you're bang on about the walli walla f'tang stuff.
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
member
10 posts
Location: Southend-on-sea, Essex, England
10 posts
Location: Southend-on-sea, Essex, England
Posted:
Hi All,
We can but hope that the 'leaders' see sense and avoid the killing of innocent Iraqi women and children.
Went to seeing'bowling for Columbine' last night, very thought-provoking film... makes a lot of sense as to why the Americans are so messed up... but hten so is a lot of this world. It seems clear we can talk all we want on this but at the end of the day they will go ahead will their plans no matter what the people who put them where they are want.
Do what you can, dont lose heart, Poi 4 Peace, just let it be known if/when a war happens it's 'Not in my name'
Peace all
Davethehat
Hi All,
We can but hope that the 'leaders' see sense and avoid the killing of innocent Iraqi women and children.
Went to seeing'bowling for Columbine' last night, very thought-provoking film... makes a lot of sense as to why the Americans are so messed up... but hten so is a lot of this world. It seems clear we can talk all we want on this but at the end of the day they will go ahead will their plans no matter what the people who put them where they are want.
Do what you can, dont lose heart, Poi 4 Peace, just let it be known if/when a war happens it's 'Not in my name'
Peace all
Davethehat
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,617 posts
Location: Berlin, Ireland
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,617 posts
Location: Berlin, Ireland
Posted:
That makes no sense. Is Ariel Sharron any less of a murderer? Do they want to go in there and remove the Israeli government even though they drive through houses in tanks firing shells, killing children and occupying Palestinian land??
Surely human rights abuses are far more urgent than in Irag where their military is in pieces. Don't forget Israel has been in occupation against UN Resolutions for (I can't remember exactly) in the region of 20/30 years. They have as much right to go in and remove Sharon as they do to remove Saddam. Talking about breaking resolutions is it not against UN resolutions to invade countries for no reason??? (sh1t sorry forgot tis guilty till proven innocent)
For me the only valid excuse for going in is the weapons excuse. They are a long long way from proving that one. Whether he has the weapons or not will definitely come out in the future if we gave it a chance but because the forces are deployed and it costs a fortune to keep 'em there.....
There is no ticking clock that says we need to prove / disprove right now. It's only cost of keeping the military there and the problem with attacking in summer that injects the "ants in the pants" lets do something now idea.
I mean killing innocents is ok if it's for the greater good right? Greater good for who?
[ 05. February 2003, 03:36: Message edited by: DeepSoulSheep ]
That makes no sense. Is Ariel Sharron any less of a murderer? Do they want to go in there and remove the Israeli government even though they drive through houses in tanks firing shells, killing children and occupying Palestinian land??
Surely human rights abuses are far more urgent than in Irag where their military is in pieces. Don't forget Israel has been in occupation against UN Resolutions for (I can't remember exactly) in the region of 20/30 years. They have as much right to go in and remove Sharon as they do to remove Saddam. Talking about breaking resolutions is it not against UN resolutions to invade countries for no reason??? (sh1t sorry forgot tis guilty till proven innocent)
For me the only valid excuse for going in is the weapons excuse. They are a long long way from proving that one. Whether he has the weapons or not will definitely come out in the future if we gave it a chance but because the forces are deployed and it costs a fortune to keep 'em there.....
There is no ticking clock that says we need to prove / disprove right now. It's only cost of keeping the military there and the problem with attacking in summer that injects the "ants in the pants" lets do something now idea.
I mean killing innocents is ok if it's for the greater good right? Greater good for who?
[ 05. February 2003, 03:36: Message edited by: DeepSoulSheep ]
I live in a world of infinite possibilities.
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
If the US wages war on itself... that would be pretty stupid
If you can get rid of all the worlds weapons, have at it! It would make my job so much easyer, no more weapons to guard and fix, though I do like having a 9mm with a round chambered at my side.
Simian, is it not wrong to murder? Does someone not have the right to live? If you have the right to live, then you must not have the right to murder someone.
In my opinion war isnt done in anyones name except for the names of those who fight it. Bush will never fight nor will Saddam, so its not their war. Go back to work and do your job, please let me do mine.
Unfortunatly you cant kill or remove everyone from power at once. I wish you could get rid of all the bad people in the world in one fail swoop but you cant do that. Heavens knows it would make my life easyer.
If the US wages war on itself... that would be pretty stupid
If you can get rid of all the worlds weapons, have at it! It would make my job so much easyer, no more weapons to guard and fix, though I do like having a 9mm with a round chambered at my side.
Simian, is it not wrong to murder? Does someone not have the right to live? If you have the right to live, then you must not have the right to murder someone.
In my opinion war isnt done in anyones name except for the names of those who fight it. Bush will never fight nor will Saddam, so its not their war. Go back to work and do your job, please let me do mine.
Unfortunatly you cant kill or remove everyone from power at once. I wish you could get rid of all the bad people in the world in one fail swoop but you cant do that. Heavens knows it would make my life easyer.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
Raymund: That bit about murderers and peadophiles was just to illustrate the point that an attitude of "who are we to interfere with someone elses way of life" isn't valid in my opinion. I didn't mean it literally.
DeepSoulSheep: I agree that there are other countries currently engaged in terrible human rights abuses. But that is not the sole reason Iraq is being threatened, it's just the one that I find most valid. Also, the Israel/Palestine conflict is far from a simple aggressor/victim situation.
As to "killing innocents for the greater good... of who?". Well, for the good of those exact same innocents. Its a question of whether that good can be achieved without killing them, or "too many" of them.
You also ask why its so important to attack now. It's true that there's no urgent time limit, but if not now, when? It could be postponed and postponed indefinitely. And it has. For over a decade. Every year he is in power innocent people are being killed and tortured. The civilian casualties of a war now would probably be far less than if we wait another decade.
I feel I should make it clear again:
I am not saying that we should attack Iraq without regard for the loss of life involved
. I am totally unsure whether a war now would be for the greater good or not. But the reasons for action against Iraq seem to get totally ignored in this thread, often in favour of vague statements in favour of 'peace' at all costs. It isn't that simple. Lives are at stake either way. Its a matter of how many, and whose.
I think I'm going to have to stop posting on this thread after this one. It's just winding me up. I usually read and post with a smile on my face but this thread just makes me grit my teeth too much. Its hurting my face muscles.
Raymund: That bit about murderers and peadophiles was just to illustrate the point that an attitude of "who are we to interfere with someone elses way of life" isn't valid in my opinion. I didn't mean it literally.
DeepSoulSheep: I agree that there are other countries currently engaged in terrible human rights abuses. But that is not the sole reason Iraq is being threatened, it's just the one that I find most valid. Also, the Israel/Palestine conflict is far from a simple aggressor/victim situation.
As to "killing innocents for the greater good... of who?". Well, for the good of those exact same innocents. Its a question of whether that good can be achieved without killing them, or "too many" of them.
You also ask why its so important to attack now. It's true that there's no urgent time limit, but if not now, when? It could be postponed and postponed indefinitely. And it has. For over a decade. Every year he is in power innocent people are being killed and tortured. The civilian casualties of a war now would probably be far less than if we wait another decade.
I feel I should make it clear again:
I am not saying that we should attack Iraq without regard for the loss of life involved
. I am totally unsure whether a war now would be for the greater good or not. But the reasons for action against Iraq seem to get totally ignored in this thread, often in favour of vague statements in favour of 'peace' at all costs. It isn't that simple. Lives are at stake either way. Its a matter of how many, and whose.
I think I'm going to have to stop posting on this thread after this one. It's just winding me up. I usually read and post with a smile on my face but this thread just makes me grit my teeth too much. Its hurting my face muscles.
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
HOP Lord of the Pirate Admiralty
1,079 posts
Location: Canterbury, UK
1,079 posts
Location: Canterbury, UK
Posted:
ray, going through the UN isn't breaking the law, and if im being naiive please tell me how.
Also if you, a US soldier (or whatever part o the forces) open fire on an iraqi WITHOUT
ray, going through the UN isn't breaking the law, and if im being naiive please tell me how.
Also if you, a US soldier (or whatever part o the forces) open fire on an iraqi WITHOUT
D.B.
X x X x X
Ship off the starboard! sound general quarters! noise and light discipline! man the cannons! GET ME THE RUM!
Master of the Free Hug Program
HOP Lord of the Pirate Admiralty
1,079 posts
Location: Canterbury, UK
1,079 posts
Location: Canterbury, UK
Posted:
ray, going through the UN isn't breaking the law, and if im being naiive please tell me how.
Also if you, a US soldier (or whatever part o the forces) open fire on an iraqi WITHOUT
ray, going through the UN isn't breaking the law, and if im being naiive please tell me how.
Also if you, a US soldier (or whatever part o the forces) open fire on an iraqi WITHOUT
D.B.
X x X x X
Ship off the starboard! sound general quarters! noise and light discipline! man the cannons! GET ME THE RUM!
Master of the Free Hug Program
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