Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > inversions, insides, atomics, oh my!

Posted: 17th Feb 2005
1)no. not really. you know, depends on your flexibility, i suppose. really this is all just reference for us to talk more. but i won't be typing as much until we've got pretty pics to look at... www.firecircus.com will be back soon, in force... things will be much easier then, this is like getting into a hot tub with cold feet



2)[Old link] that's about it... really "crane" means the moves above labeled crane they all have a similarity, if your timing is off slightly you get a knot



btb trinity airwrap inversions... rock on, dude
EDITED_BY: arashi (1108690298)

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted: 18th Feb 2005
Doh!

thanks arashi, guess I should read the replies to my own questions sometimes....

and i must have read it before cos i posted a little further down the page

I think maybe the best bet with thease things is to play around, tho a logical apraoch would stop my head exploding...

T

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

Posted: 18th Feb 2005
okay... logical... keep your head...

cranes all have this attribute... for each beat of a bfly/atomic, one poi leads the first intersection, and follows on the second.

intersection is... in the 2 planes in a bfly, where they cross into each other.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted: 19th Feb 2005
ok well here's my confusion..

1- edit: removed because even I don't understand what I meant..



2- when I do same direction stuff they can be forced (barely) into a same point.. in whihc case they work like a same direction butterfly (go figure).. whihc means if they fall out of exact time.. they tangle.. however they spin quite comfortably and at anytiming if you expand the point out a little whihc makes more liek a box than an atom.. again go figure.. the closer they are to being baout the same point.. the less freedom there is in timing.. and thus I don't really see the point of this atomically speaking.. that's all.. I'm sure more of this crane business will strike my interest.. but right now I can't say I can comment.. because I don't see what needs to be said that arashi hasn't said clear enough..
EDITED_BY: Rev (1108866855)

More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

Posted: 11th May 2005
just printed this out.

haven't read it since page 3


might have some comments in three or four weeks


cole. x

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

Posted: 11th May 2005
awesome... wlecome to some crack cole.. cant wait for your input..

you can ignore about 3 pages of it or so... some moron kept giving arashi crap... dunno what his deal was... but it all gets worked out in the end me thinks.. though I'm not really sure...

arashi- did you ever work out the anti-spin business, so we can talk more about its inversions.

and whatever came of the butterfly thing? I seem to remember some x guy talking about how he had figured out the proper way to do one.. not sure how mine was improper.. or what he meant by a proper one..

and back to you again arashi- ever work out the butterfly sj.. I can spin in it now problem.. , but I'm still having issues getting in and out.. doesnt work as clean as the same direction ones.. and I'm having problems keeping the momentum of the spin whilst moving my arms about..

More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

Posted: 11th May 2005
wow

Posted: 11th May 2005
rev- i just figure i'll let matt show me in person

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted: 13th May 2005
okay, been reading this backwards cos i'm weird.



has really helped my understanding of antispin techniques (s to tenticle, rev and dut for that).



spent 10 minutes having a spin last night and recorded it all - was playing with the relationships between isolation and antispin.

i still don't get antispin completely - i have to use quite a bit of separation to get a weave to work and it feels loads like inside out isolations at the moment.

wallpane transfers are helping me understand the principles of the half circle of antispin used to get the wrong hand crossing over first.



trying to understand how far inverted antispin planes are is confusing me lots.



mainly, i just got very confused but it makes for a funny video



another three weeks and i'll make meself another tape and see how much more i get...





the bit about bf weaves being half antispin reminded me of some past/future echos i had back when oli came up with the name 'anti-weave' (when very few knew what the hell was going on with this backwards crazyness)



i can't believe it has taken me all this time to get around to trying to spin and understand all of this stuff (although i couldn't juggle 5 balls then and i can now so i guess i have a fairly decent excuse ).





the main thing is, i'm really enjoying poi again









cole. x
EDITED_BY: coleman (1115980064)

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

Posted: 13th May 2005
oh for fu(ks sake, if even cole is reading all of this i suppose i better had too...;)

aaargh.

see you all in a while.

R

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Posted: 13th May 2005
its not a competition rob...

i've not read even close to all of it yet - so far just the pages around ben's antispin diagrams cos i really don't understand how it all works.
i have a few variations of antispin weaves with different parts inverted which confuses me lots.

am considering printing out the spherc thread on antispin but i think another couple of hours spinning somwhere would do me far more good at this stage.

it still all feels inside out...


cole. x

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

Posted: 13th May 2005
i never said it was(but i'll win )

lovely day outside (and inside, and any inversions thereof).

might finally go and work on some of this.

*sigh*

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Posted: 13th May 2005

Written by: coleman

---

spent 10 minutes having a spin last night and recorded it all - was playing with the relationships between isolation and antispin.
i still don't get antispin completely - i have to use quite a bit of separation to get a weave to work and it feels loads like inside out isolations at the moment.
wallpane transfers are helping me understand the principles of the half circle of antispin used to get the wrong hand crossing over first.

trying to understand how far inverted antispin planes are is confusing me lots.

---

backwards is good... it means you hit all the meaty discussion first..

we tryto be understood.. though I'm not sure how well I do at times..

I wouldnt worry about not getting antispin... to a degree I dont get it either.. its rather hard with glowsticks.. and its going to feel and awful lot like isolations.. because you are doing a sliding point islation when you do it.. (ie your are isolating about a point that moves throughout the duration of the pattern.) or at least that how mine work.. its seems I isolate closer to the head as I bring the hand acrossand then slowly isolate less and less as it crosses.. I think that's why it feels so sloppy, because I don't isoalte the other poi, and probably don't slow it down to time well enough..

as far as the inversions go.. I'm more lost now than I was before.. I mean.. there's a pole change in the weave... when you are on the left side, you have to switch the pole to get to the right side.. (for a good idea of flipping poles, just do a 5bt inversion into a 3bt inversion back to back on the same side or 3bt into 5bt.) anyway.. we flip poles outside inversions too.. and we do it each time we cange sides in a weave.. and that is messing with the whole antispin inversion thing.. because its antispin (on the side its on) but same direction( when you flip the pole.. ).. <~~ me... so I've kinda have been leaving this alone.. look forward to some good discussions.. because I know so much more than I did then, but yet, don't know anything at all..

More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

Posted: 13th May 2005
yeah i've always had the suspicion that antispin weaves are inside family, but until i see one and know what it actually is i just let it be. i figure after uberpoi we'll have it sorted, since matt's coming too. maybe even filmed...

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted: 14th May 2005
Rev > About the atnispin weave. When I first try I have same problem when the hands cross. Now I know each hand have its own vertical plane. Forward backward works good, but turn still not. I think giant weave will help.
Some connection with isolation I see, when I do with shorty Poi "BTN backward Isolation" and than "BTN antispin" like small flower in BTN plane.

POI THEO(R)IST

Posted: 14th May 2005
maybe i should read this thread too.... ive dipped into it in the past and undertsood very little. but now i think i undertsand inversions.. to a certain extent, i might be able to make more sense out of this. i think the interesting thing about this thread is it only makes sense to people who allready understand what its trying to explain.

Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

Posted: 14th May 2005
Oli > Te first post is the most important,than you can get just deeper and deeper and deeper

POI THEO(R)IST

Posted: 14th May 2005
echoes richee:
the first post has been described as "too simple"
but if you can understand the move, the rest of the thread will fall into place (i hope)
all these moves are analogous to airwraps, with the knots happening in your arms rather than the chains. (or rather without knots at all)
why are all you guys trying to muddle through the text now that I can just show in person soon?!? you're braver than I...

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted: 15th May 2005
arashi- the thing abotu the term insides, is that inside is so vague...

inside (most common use)- inside plane.. the plane between the arms and the body
half-inside (commonly also called inside)- is the space inbetween the arms... thus it is between -an- arm and the body, but also its between -an- arm and the outside..
outside- between the arms and the far far away..

now antispin weaves use half-insides.. but.. so does ANY threaded motion.. the fact that you -can- make a normal weave spin in the exact same plane happens to be (imo) a product of a lucky alignment of direction and whatnot..Now other weave has this property? even inversions which are also same direction have one fruther in and one further out.. On top of that most people that I've seen spin (myself included) always spin weaves with a threading motion.. even when I keep my wrists together, my hands form almost an 'L' so that one stays inside the and the twisting of my weave plays on this... this is best brought out when you do straight arm weaves.. especially if you keep the arm straight on its side only..

antispin weaves highlight the half-insided-ness more because they spin through the inner arcs rather than the outer ones.. whihc is why when you ahve your wrists near each other the inner poi passes under the arm pit.. but regardless where it passes under that arm, its still just passing under the arm.. whihc is no different than passing under the arm all the way at the bottom of the swing.. otherwise we seem to be saying its different because it swings near the arms rather than at the edge of its length... and I thought that was kinda inherent to the nature of that type of spin.. look at a flower vs antispin flower..

another thing about the timing (which is why it works better wall planed) is because the timing on a normal weave is fron and back.. ie out front, or out back.. the timing on an antispin weave is up and down.. this is what makes it so awkward to spin, makes the timings feel awkward normally, and makes them a pain in some positions.. iso unless someone has developed a comfortable way of turning the pattern 90 degrees to make the crossovers front nd back, we are just going to have to get used to an up and down timing.. whihc sucks because a 5bt is hard to put in time when crossing at the bottom.. and so I've dropped it from my practce session for the time being..

as far as islations go.. its going to feel isolated, because there really isnt any pull at the points that it is at in the circle.. normally we feel the FULL pull of the swing, because the poi is constantly being pulled tight.. but in antispin, its making the top of its swing during the sides (mid move height) (which isnt pulling tight, but kinda just floating there).. because our hands arent a full chain length down.. antispin makes use of the inner parts of the circles put together, rather than norma spin whihc makes uses of the outside.. if I get a bunch of outside arcs, I can put them together and make a circle thats the same as the circles they were cut from.. but by taking all the inside arcs, we kinda need more circle pieces just to make it al the way around.. (halves of circles not quarters of circles.. ) so a lot of those points in the cricle arent being forced like normals spin (thus lots of pull) but kinda glide... so its like using an alternating of accelerating and coasting, to go the same speed rather than a steady foot on the gas pedal.. (sorry if these are bad descriptions.. )


*sigh* I forgot the part on inversions.. (like I havent rambled enough... ) Please bare with me.. I'm sure there's something useful in all this to someone.. ok.. so I think I just suck at antispin too much to make the inversions keep on.. see they antispin, but then the pole fips and they are normal spin, but end right in the spot to continue my antispin on the other side.. (as in they are allready fully normal twisted, and can only anti-twist) this latter part makes me think I got it right.. but I can't figure out why the flipping of the poles would do that.. because I've played a ton with the pole flipping of the normal ones, and never have to antitwist... In fact... the only thing I could say that brings me close to having to anti-twist are the cross side led inversions.. so I'm wondering if I'm just eff'ing up the crossover when I anti-spin an inversion.. I toss it up as possible, though I don't think its likely.. my only other alternative idea is that the inversions are just a mucked up area to begin with.. and only serve to blur the boundary of normal and antispin even more.. because the cross side led antispin inversion seems to be an awful lot like an inside led inversion... Its really confused the crap out of me.. because its all relative to the position..

for example.. clockwise spinning poi. do an inside inversion that leads with the right hand.. odds are your arms are pointing down.. and you right poi leads under the left arm but over the right arm..

now lets take this same example but turn the poi 90 degrees.. what I want you to do is spin clockwise in the wall plane.. with your arms pointing away from you (right hand over the left and to the lleft of it a little bit.. now bring your right hand under the left arm and and up between the arms (and thus over the right arm) you end up in the same position you started in.. (except maybe your right hand is palm up rather than palm down)

now look at these examples.. the first one was an inide led inversion.. and the poi planes were parallel with the arms.. the second is a cross arm led antispin inversion.. and the poi are perpendicular to the arms.. the exact same motion though.. it kinda works the same with the same side led antispin inversion.. the thing is that the closer the poi planes come to being parallel with the arms, the smoother (normal spin) it flows.. (whihc I guess explains the corssover craziness).. the weird part is you can't realy avoid that.. I mean when you crossover your arms have to become parallel with the poi planes for a bit..

I guess learning antispin insides will help a lot, but I'm not ready for that yet.. maybe at the end of the summer.. ayway.. I've said way more than anyone cares to read.. with al lyour atomics and what not arashi, maybe you might better understand some of this parallel, perpendicular business.. I mean.. I never paid much attention to the fact that my normal spin inversions needed to be parallel with my arms.. I just did it because they rolled better.. (I know that sounds weird, but sometimes you do what feels comfortable, not whats 'right' <- using the term loosely)

More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

Posted: 15th May 2005
I say:
Inside plane = inverted plane

= between buzzsaw plane & parallel planetary , only different position (terminology colapse.....).

Antispin /= Isiolation, just same strategy to figure out.
Antispining is in parallels or BTN. I cant imagine st like Inverted antispining, were is inversion there I see cross follow, where is antispin there I see Flowers.

Where I am ?

see ya,

:R

POI THEO(R)IST

Posted: 15th May 2005
Yea...i still dont get it. Everytime i think "omg thats it!" arashi comes in and says "no". I must have got it right... atleast once...

Im just guessing it's between the arms but im not sure...because you can also do it with one poi ontop of another...like Richee said "flower" but to me it only has 1 petal.

/me goes back to playing

Posted: 16th May 2005
did you guys see this?

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted: 16th May 2005
ok,ok I get :] I forgot em totally

SO it goies like wall plane < inverted < inside < BTN > inside > inverted > wall plane

right ?

:R

POI THEO(R)IST

Posted: 17th May 2005
I think I get your notation now... Btn =burn the nose... Couldn't figure that out... Thought it was like between the nutz or something... Lol..

Now arashi can slap me for this.. But this is how I see it..

You can't place the inverted IN a plane... Inversions are a relations BETWEEN planes... As in a relations of how one plane sits relative to another... This relation is what gives inversions that signature 'pull'

See you've got two planes, one for each poi.. And they are in one of three positions: outside, half-inside (buzzsaw), inside..

The reason your spectrum is off richee is because you place your buzzsaw in the middle.. And its not.. Its confusing.. Because most people do a buzzsaw in front of them.. In the middle.. That's the easiest.. BUT... That leads to a bit of confusion because of the body...

Outside|h-inside|inside|body|inside|h-inside|outside

Now since a buzzsaw is just two contrary planes, you can have a buzzsaw made from two half-insides or two insides (<- the common one)

So you can rewrite the spectrum like this:
Outside|buzzsaw|inside|buzzsaw|inside|buzzsaw|outside

Inversions must take place in a buzzsaw space.. That is the only place where you can get two contrary planes to overlap... Normall in a buzzsaw they are next to each other.. In inversions, they cross to the opposite side of center.. Not just that but they are 180 degrees off (which is why you get tangled at the wrist and don't just have a hand over hand roll) just putting them off center and rolling your hands inst an inversion.. It has to cross at the wrists like an airwrap..

This is why the hand over hand, the barrel roll, the buzzsaw weave are all misleading connotations... And so is talking about an inverted 'plane' though one can mak these distinctions correctly, they also lead to valid interpretations that are invalid inversions...

Hope that helps you guys a bit... I'm having to access all this from my phone, so I can't tell how well its coming out...

More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

Posted: 17th May 2005
Ok I think for once I understood all of that, and completely agreed with it!

*falls over in shock*

"Moo," said the happy cow.

Posted: 17th May 2005
Oh want to quickly add that you can see in the second spectrum I list, where inversions enter and exit... That have to enter either inside or outside and can move any way along the spectrum... Thus entering right outside and exiting right outside or exiting right inside... What also might clear up some confusion is that inside and outside planes are mirrors...
Thus right outside is the same as left inside (just in a different place relative the body)
Same with left outside and right inside...
So your opposite planes (by these I mean your two opposite polar planes, ie the two that can be stuck together for a weave) are:
R outside and L outside
R outside and R inside
L outside and L inside
R inside and L inside <- real weird because you really have to flip your poles to get it to work...

Now before I get into poles, polar nature of planes, and flipping poles are we all on the same page (not literally )?

Just remember that there's a 3 step spectrum.. Which we've kinda extended in the full spectrum
The full was out|buzz|in|buzz|in|buzz|out but we will mostly use a reduced version, the 3 chunk spectrum:
Out|buzz|in
Out|buzz|out
In|buzz|in <- this being that hard one I mentioned..

You can enter from either inside or outside (because those are on either side of the buzsaw) and can exit to either side (not just go straight across) and you can enter either side with either hand...

This is why there are essentially two inversions, to use old terms the fwd and rev 3bt.. Because they represent the two poles.. And every other inversion is one of those two... But again... Lets make sure we have the above noted and understood before I ramble on..

More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

Posted: 17th May 2005
ooh. i do have a problem with that fundamentally. you're talking about two different types of problems, what i call a 3 body problem and a 1 body problem at the same time. see if this makes sense: outsides is treating the entire body between the poi as a single vertical obstacle. the two body version is above the head (ignoring the head itself) since each arm is your only obstacle. once you move to your "insides" (even just insided betweeen shoulder and crotch for simplicity), you've created a 3 body problem where each arm is a seperate obstacle to make your trunk a single vertical obstacle connected to the arms at the top. below the waist is a 4 body problem, made more complicated by the fact that you can spin h-h-ll (legs as a single obstacle) like a 3 body or h-l-h-l like a 'real 4 body'. then again, you can treat both arms as a single obstacle in the 3 body 'inside' too, making it 2 body with hands together (butterfly), or by putting the torso outside the equasion (buzzsaw)... in any event, outside|blah blah|outside as a 1D spectrum doesn't work for me, but if it helps me or anyone else get antispin and inversions, i'm happy. I've been trying to draw the 3 body version in 2D as Venn Diagrams, and that's making me much happier, conceptually.



crap, now it's making it more complicated. that's got me wondering what happens to the term "inside" when you consider these two possibilities AAB (arm arm body) vs ABA (arm body arm):

1___4

arm__arm

_2__3

___body



-- v/s --



1

_arm

__2__3

___body

___4__5

_____ arm

_______6



i'm not sure what the numbers mean, but they're supposed to suggest places to put your hands/center of rotations. some of the ones for the last diagram are probably waist wraps too, and stuff with each poi half-inside on different sides of your body -- but that's not at all 'inverse' in my book... i think it means you have to treat buzzsaws as two seperate two body problems, and switching from inside to buzzsaw is switching from a 3-body to 2-body problem, which should imply certain transitions that i can't calculate. now my head hurts which means it's time to stop writing and spin more. lol.



-- dut
EDITED_BY: Dut (1116361173)

Posted: 17th May 2005
Dut..
Your confusing yourself man...

1- most of what you call inversions.. Especially if you are using ven diagrams.. Is wrong... The ven diagrams will mess things up because the miss the point of what's going on completely... And I can tell its messing you up becausee you're refering to things as inverted that I never said nor fit with what I described

2- legs aren't a seperate issue.. Legs are part of the body... You go between them and your doing utl/btl stuff... As far as inside outside and whatnot is concerned the legs are the body..

3- your last sections show that you didn't follow what I presented at all...

I'm sorry...

The body represents a line that is parallel with the plane the poi are in... The arms also represent a line that is parallel with the plane the poi are in.. The division there of results in the 7 planar strata as you move from one end of the spectrum to the other (ie one side of the body to the other) and thus accounts for any turning or angle with that simple division...

The only thing that works different is the vertical planes. But they are reduced to the 3 strata that we use most often..

We mainly stay with a twobody problem (ie the 3 strata) which is why insides act like opposite outsides...

I'd go into more.. But i don't want to confues people... I'm sorry you didn't follow what I was talking about... I'd be more than happy to discuss it further via im or email since I'm out of town and won't be back til monday.. That would keep us from confusing others and give you chance to ask more direct questions...

More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

Posted: 18th May 2005
One of these days somebody's gonna have to show me all this, because as I said in the Spherc thread, my brain hurts when I try to think about WTF y'all are talking about. Dammit, I knew there was a reason I shoulda chatted with SpiralX when I was in Londres...

Posted: 18th May 2005

rev i finally think we understand each other, now once i get back from london i'll know what this whole anitspin business is referring to and we'll be rocking the next uberdimension.

thank you for clarifying the distinctions and pointing out the weaknesses in my explanations..." And so is talking about an inverted 'plane' though one can make these distinctions correctly, they also lead to valid interpretations that are invalid inversions..." that's the fuzzy area i wasn't quite able to get around. both are the same math, different notation. but in atomics you'll see why i divided them up that way. it's all in the inside crossovers...

hopefully all this misunderstanding will enable me to be more clear in the future.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.