Forums > Social Discussion > 'Ground Zero Mosque' draws large scale attention
Login/Join to ParticipateStargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
A muslim community intends to build a mosque near "Ground Zero" in NYC, which draws a lot of attention (and tension) to the project.
Recently demonstrations were held to block the project. Pres. Obama is not necessarily opposing the project (drawing heavy criticism) and NY major Bloomberg supports the project under US "freedom of religion" maxime.
Understandably many US citizens feel that a mosque near the 9/11 site would deeply hurt feelings of the relatives of those ~2.900 killed in the attacks (neglecting that also (innocent) Muslims had been amongst those killed in the attacks).
Certainly many of the opponents of the project are Muslims themselves for a variety of reasons.
Though the US constitution grants a right to freedom of religious expression and worship to any of its citizens, many feel it would be much more sensitive and earn much more respect from the US public if the Islamic center would be shifted further away from the site.
I for my part hope that they will find a solution which respects all parties involved and which does not draw negativity and violence.
A muslim community intends to build a mosque near "Ground Zero" in NYC, which draws a lot of attention (and tension) to the project.
Recently demonstrations were held to block the project. Pres. Obama is not necessarily opposing the project (drawing heavy criticism) and NY major Bloomberg supports the project under US "freedom of religion" maxime.
Understandably many US citizens feel that a mosque near the 9/11 site would deeply hurt feelings of the relatives of those ~2.900 killed in the attacks (neglecting that also (innocent) Muslims had been amongst those killed in the attacks).
Certainly many of the opponents of the project are Muslims themselves for a variety of reasons.
Though the US constitution grants a right to freedom of religious expression and worship to any of its citizens, many feel it would be much more sensitive and earn much more respect from the US public if the Islamic center would be shifted further away from the site.
I for my part hope that they will find a solution which respects all parties involved and which does not draw negativity and violence.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
BRONZE Member
Classically British
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Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Posted:
I thought that there was so much spin on this issue that it's lost all semblance of reason.
Isn't it actually a community centre, with a mosque inside it as opposed to a straight-out mosque?
The definition of "near" is also quite widley debated, as isn't it to be built 5 blocks away from the site? Hardly over-looking ground-zero.
Also, as it's constituionally allowed, Obama can't block it even if he wanted to. Spouting rhetoric about it won't actually help matters.
Aren't there elections coming up soon too? Coincindence?
I thought that there was so much spin on this issue that it's lost all semblance of reason.
Isn't it actually a community centre, with a mosque inside it as opposed to a straight-out mosque?
The definition of "near" is also quite widley debated, as isn't it to be built 5 blocks away from the site? Hardly over-looking ground-zero.
Also, as it's constituionally allowed, Obama can't block it even if he wanted to. Spouting rhetoric about it won't actually help matters.
Aren't there elections coming up soon too? Coincindence?
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Stargazer
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Posted:
Thanks Durbs - I actually wanted to check the distance to Ground Zero... guess anything within a 20mile radius would get deemed "close", depending on who you'd ask.
And Yes - it's intended serving as a community center with a mosque being a part of it... I would say it all gets pretty much blown out of proportion by the media and the people who control it.
Thanks Durbs - I actually wanted to check the distance to Ground Zero... guess anything within a 20mile radius would get deemed "close", depending on who you'd ask.
And Yes - it's intended serving as a community center with a mosque being a part of it... I would say it all gets pretty much blown out of proportion by the media and the people who control it.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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Cooler than bubblegum!
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Location: Dallas, Texas, USA
Cooler than bubblegum!
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Location: Dallas, Texas, USA
Posted:
It's a good thing that the law decides and not some group of drama cases that haven't dealt with 9/11 or need a crusade.
Insensitive, maybe. Deal with it! The creators of the US constitution were wise enough to know that democracy could be perverted, hence the 'Bill of Rights'.
This may very well be another contrived issue to generate votes in the House and Senate for Nay sayers(republicans).
Originally Posted By: DurbsObama can't block it even if he wanted to.
With a manufactured reason a court could block the building at the request of the President, Governor of New York, Mayor of New York City, interest group, or anyone with enough money and clever enough lawyer. It would be a shameful act, but I have come to believe that right wing politicians and their cattle constituents feel no shame.
It's a good thing that the law decides and not some group of drama cases that haven't dealt with 9/11 or need a crusade.
Insensitive, maybe. Deal with it! The creators of the US constitution were wise enough to know that democracy could be perverted, hence the 'Bill of Rights'.
This may very well be another contrived issue to generate votes in the House and Senate for Nay sayers(republicans).
Originally Posted By: DurbsObama can't block it even if he wanted to.
With a manufactured reason a court could block the building at the request of the President, Governor of New York, Mayor of New York City, interest group, or anyone with enough money and clever enough lawyer. It would be a shameful act, but I have come to believe that right wing politicians and their cattle constituents feel no shame.
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coming to a country near you
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coming to a country near you
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Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
Originally Posted By: Seyehttps://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/23/charlie-brooker-ground-zero-mosque
love it.
Originally Posted By: Seyehttps://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/23/charlie-brooker-ground-zero-mosque
love it. "but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
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Posted:
That article was very informative. I didn't know that they were "building" anything. I thought they were just taking over a building. I love the one lady holding a sign that represents 70% of Americans. That is everyone over the age of 18 and nearly a quarter of a billion people. She must have won the lottery they held for the position. Speaking of which, you've just won the Swiss lottery, to collect we'll need your name, address and your bank account number.
I personally, don't know a single person that cares. What do I know, I just live in the US, and the propaganda machine hasn't told me what to think yet.
Britons aren't dumb, but where did this Briton information?
Originally Posted By: Charlie Brooker of the 'Guardian'Seriously, broadcasters, journalists: just give up now.
AMEN! *pulls the plug on the Guardian and hands out 'Common Sense' by Thomas Paine*
That article was very informative. I didn't know that they were "building" anything. I thought they were just taking over a building. I love the one lady holding a sign that represents 70% of Americans. That is everyone over the age of 18 and nearly a quarter of a billion people. She must have won the lottery they held for the position. Speaking of which, you've just won the Swiss lottery, to collect we'll need your name, address and your bank account number.
I personally, don't know a single person that cares. What do I know, I just live in the US, and the propaganda machine hasn't told me what to think yet.
Britons aren't dumb, but where did this Briton information?
Originally Posted By: Charlie Brooker of the 'Guardian'Seriously, broadcasters, journalists: just give up now.
AMEN! *pulls the plug on the Guardian and hands out 'Common Sense' by Thomas Paine*
The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...
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Hunting robot foxes
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Hunting robot foxes
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Posted:
Brooker is a ledgend
Brooker is a ledgend
Working hard to be a wandering hippie layabout. Ten years down, five to go!
BRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Posted:
OUTRAGE OVER PLANS TO BUILD LIBRARY NEXT TO SARAH PALIN
OUTRAGE OVER PLANS TO BUILD LIBRARY NEXT TO SARAH PALIN
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Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
worth the thread
worth the thread
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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Cooler than bubblegum!
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Cooler than bubblegum!
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Posted:
I officially have a homo internet crush on Durbs
I officially have a homo internet crush on Durbs
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Ooops
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Ooops
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Location: EARTH, USA
Posted:
Originally Posted By: Refuge CrewIt's a good thing that the law decides and not some group of drama cases that haven't dealt with 9/11 or need a crusade.
Insensitive, maybe. Deal with it! The creators of the US constitution were wise enough to know that democracy could be perverted, hence the 'Bill of Rights'.
Well said Refuge Crew. The law of the land will clearly allow the community center to be built (Freedom of Religion), and will also clearly allow people to protest (Freedom of Speech). So far, it seems that both sides of this dispute are doing things legally, yes? So what is all of the fuss about?
Defend the Constitution, it is the only thing protecting us from the crazies.
Silly robots, religion is for humans. How did I end up in the Dark Age? What a waste of minds and educational enlightenment.
Originally Posted By: Refuge CrewIt's a good thing that the law decides and not some group of drama cases that haven't dealt with 9/11 or need a crusade.
Insensitive, maybe. Deal with it! The creators of the US constitution were wise enough to know that democracy could be perverted, hence the 'Bill of Rights'.
Well said Refuge Crew. The law of the land will clearly allow the community center to be built (Freedom of Religion), and will also clearly allow people to protest (Freedom of Speech). So far, it seems that both sides of this dispute are doing things legally, yes? So what is all of the fuss about?
Defend the Constitution, it is the only thing protecting us from the crazies.
Silly robots, religion is for humans. How did I end up in the Dark Age? What a waste of minds and educational enlightenment.
Groovy
BRONZE Member
Wind Dancer
126 posts
Location: USA, east coast
Wind Dancer
126 posts
Location: USA, east coast
Posted:
I'd like to know where the 70% of Americans came from. I certainly didn't vote on that.
My mother visited me in the city last year. As we were having a lovely time at a local cafe, she turns to me and whispers "There are an awful lot of Middle Eastern types here... Don't know how I feel about that."
9/11 was a terrible tragedy that killed a terrifying number of innocent people of all different races and religions. Same with Pearl Harbor, Hiroshima, Chernobyl, the earthquake in Haiti, etc etc... Tragedies happen. It sucks, but it's true. That doesn't give you the right to turn an entire race of people into a scapegoat. The community center is a step to alleviate the tension that shouldn't exist. People really need to just step back and remember what is important.
When those terrorists attacked the twin towers, they attacked a place of peace. Is protesting the construction of a community center any different? While I support building this community center, I fear it will become the brunt of vandalism, which is really quite unfortunate. I do hope they build the community center, even if in a slightly different place.
I'd like to know where the 70% of Americans came from. I certainly didn't vote on that.
My mother visited me in the city last year. As we were having a lovely time at a local cafe, she turns to me and whispers "There are an awful lot of Middle Eastern types here... Don't know how I feel about that."
9/11 was a terrible tragedy that killed a terrifying number of innocent people of all different races and religions. Same with Pearl Harbor, Hiroshima, Chernobyl, the earthquake in Haiti, etc etc... Tragedies happen. It sucks, but it's true. That doesn't give you the right to turn an entire race of people into a scapegoat. The community center is a step to alleviate the tension that shouldn't exist. People really need to just step back and remember what is important.
When those terrorists attacked the twin towers, they attacked a place of peace. Is protesting the construction of a community center any different? While I support building this community center, I fear it will become the brunt of vandalism, which is really quite unfortunate. I do hope they build the community center, even if in a slightly different place.
Impermanent are all created things;
Strive on with awareness.
- Buddha
BRONZE Member
Cooler than bubblegum!
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Posted:
They are only taking over an existing building. They aren't building anything....
They are only taking over an existing building. They aren't building anything....
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BRONZE Member
Wind Dancer
126 posts
Location: USA, east coast
Wind Dancer
126 posts
Location: USA, east coast
Posted:
Right well, creating the community center? Idk a better way to phrase it
Right well, creating the community center? Idk a better way to phrase it
Impermanent are all created things;
Strive on with awareness.
- Buddha
BRONZE Member
Cooler than bubblegum!
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Posted:
Moving in...
Oh
! There goes the neighbourhood!
Moving in...
Oh
! There goes the neighbourhood! The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
not sure whether it really matters.
fact is that a lot of people are quite emotional about it and they look for any kind of way to turn it into a political issue... bill of rights or not, as Laasya noted, it might become a place of ongoing vandalism and possibly violent attacks...
not sure whether it really matters.
fact is that a lot of people are quite emotional about it and they look for any kind of way to turn it into a political issue... bill of rights or not, as Laasya noted, it might become a place of ongoing vandalism and possibly violent attacks...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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Cooler than bubblegum!
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Cooler than bubblegum!
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Posted:
You mean like all those poor Mosques in Europe! Well it's a two way street really. No one is stopping them from moving in but then again they have to be prepared for the price of that freedom. It's like having a bad neighbour in the second largest metropolitan on the planet, that never sleeps, on busy, people packed Manhattan Island. I'm sure someone will phone the police.
You mean like all those poor Mosques in Europe! Well it's a two way street really. No one is stopping them from moving in but then again they have to be prepared for the price of that freedom. It's like having a bad neighbour in the second largest metropolitan on the planet, that never sleeps, on busy, people packed Manhattan Island. I'm sure someone will phone the police.
The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...
Stargazer
6,650 posts
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Posted:
well - how about 24/7 police security, like the one we offer for the American embassy and consulate and to all the Synagogues here in Germany? Would that make it any better?
Mosques are not in danger here in Germany, but we haven't had a 9/11 either...
well - how about 24/7 police security, like the one we offer for the American embassy and consulate and to all the Synagogues here in Germany? Would that make it any better?
Mosques are not in danger here in Germany, but we haven't had a 9/11 either...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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Cooler than bubblegum!
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Cooler than bubblegum!
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Posted:
The US had 9/11... but the Americans didn't swim across the Atlantic to burn down those Mosques in Holland, why did they do that? I seriously believe that the community centre will not be a target of vandalism.
The US had 9/11... but the Americans didn't swim across the Atlantic to burn down those Mosques in Holland, why did they do that? I seriously believe that the community centre will not be a target of vandalism.
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Stargazer
6,650 posts
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Posted:
you will find hatred all across the planet. it usually stems from ignorance or lack of education, the feeling of helplessness and trying to look for a victim to vent aggression.
mosques got attacked and burned down not only in the Netherlands, but in other European countries, no question, no denial.
You will find extremist Jews here, certainly you will find extremist Neo-Nazis too (whilst them usually support Islamists on accounts of Antisemitism) or simply people who feel that Islam is the new Christianity and is responsible for too much violence and trouble across the globe. People all have their own reasons and while it is true that the later version of Qran is not the most peaceful of all scripts you may find millions of people get held ransom for the deeds of a few thousands, no?
you will find hatred all across the planet. it usually stems from ignorance or lack of education, the feeling of helplessness and trying to look for a victim to vent aggression.
mosques got attacked and burned down not only in the Netherlands, but in other European countries, no question, no denial.
You will find extremist Jews here, certainly you will find extremist Neo-Nazis too (whilst them usually support Islamists on accounts of Antisemitism) or simply people who feel that Islam is the new Christianity and is responsible for too much violence and trouble across the globe. People all have their own reasons and while it is true that the later version of Qran is not the most peaceful of all scripts you may find millions of people get held ransom for the deeds of a few thousands, no?
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
Wind Dancer
126 posts
Location: USA, east coast
Wind Dancer
126 posts
Location: USA, east coast
Posted:
Very true, FireTom. Religion itself it the cause of many (if not most) wars, simply because people are too selfish to accept that different people hold different beliefs. One religion is in no way superior to another. They are all, in the end, based off of possibly fictitious pieces of literature that have no real, undeniable proof behind them. It's just such a shame that people have to classify others. People do not work like shapes. You can say "it's a triangle, so it must have three sides," but you cannot say "he's Muslim, so he must be a terrorist." Yet people do anyways /sigh
As for the 24/7 police security... While I'm sure that would deter vandals, I think that's a bit extreme for a community center.
Refuge - I hope you're right about it not being a target of vandalism. Hopefully these self-righteous protesters are all words and no action.
Very true, FireTom. Religion itself it the cause of many (if not most) wars, simply because people are too selfish to accept that different people hold different beliefs. One religion is in no way superior to another. They are all, in the end, based off of possibly fictitious pieces of literature that have no real, undeniable proof behind them. It's just such a shame that people have to classify others. People do not work like shapes. You can say "it's a triangle, so it must have three sides," but you cannot say "he's Muslim, so he must be a terrorist." Yet people do anyways /sigh
As for the 24/7 police security... While I'm sure that would deter vandals, I think that's a bit extreme for a community center.
Refuge - I hope you're right about it not being a target of vandalism. Hopefully these self-righteous protesters are all words and no action.
Impermanent are all created things;
Strive on with awareness.
- Buddha
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Posted:
I was directing the question towards Holland BC of Theo van Gogh. It all started over insensitivity towards Islam and ended in needless loss of life and destruction of property.
Now why, I ask you, shouldn't the creators of this community centre take into consideration the sensitivity of their location? Ignorant as it may be, they have been given the warning signs of what could happen. The people that object to the community centre have just as much right to voice their opinions as, does the community centre to move into that building. Is it worth the trouble that it might cause?
Can't they show their commitment to the community's harmony by simply moving their planned community centre a little further away. It would demonstrate their willingness to make peace and take the wind out of the sails of the nay sayers. It would be a notable self sacrifice.
@Laaysa, I don't think these protesters are being self-righteous. They are voicing their objection. They become self-righteous when they forcibly impose their desires upon this issue. For the moment they are just being obnoxious.
We all wish they would just give up and go away. I say, give them what they want, right or wrong. If that doesn't kill this issue, then it just shows they are bent on disrupting the social balance and not concerned about sensitivity.
I was directing the question towards Holland BC of Theo van Gogh. It all started over insensitivity towards Islam and ended in needless loss of life and destruction of property.
Now why, I ask you, shouldn't the creators of this community centre take into consideration the sensitivity of their location? Ignorant as it may be, they have been given the warning signs of what could happen. The people that object to the community centre have just as much right to voice their opinions as, does the community centre to move into that building. Is it worth the trouble that it might cause?
Can't they show their commitment to the community's harmony by simply moving their planned community centre a little further away. It would demonstrate their willingness to make peace and take the wind out of the sails of the nay sayers. It would be a notable self sacrifice.
@Laaysa, I don't think these protesters are being self-righteous. They are voicing their objection. They become self-righteous when they forcibly impose their desires upon this issue. For the moment they are just being obnoxious.
We all wish they would just give up and go away. I say, give them what they want, right or wrong. If that doesn't kill this issue, then it just shows they are bent on disrupting the social balance and not concerned about sensitivity.
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Insert Champagne Here
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Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
I agree.
Both that it's a great load of fuss over something that there shouldn't be a fuss about. But also that sometimes one should be sensitive before embarking on projects.
By all means, I think that they should be able to build a community centre wherever they like - but at the same time, community centres are supposed to be peaceful things and I wonder if there was a small amount of antagonism here: proposing a location that would stir up controversy and therefore keep it in the news.
Ahhh, reasons why I'm without a religion!
I agree.
Both that it's a great load of fuss over something that there shouldn't be a fuss about. But also that sometimes one should be sensitive before embarking on projects.
By all means, I think that they should be able to build a community centre wherever they like - but at the same time, community centres are supposed to be peaceful things and I wonder if there was a small amount of antagonism here: proposing a location that would stir up controversy and therefore keep it in the news.
Ahhh, reasons why I'm without a religion!
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BRONZE Member
Wind Dancer
126 posts
Location: USA, east coast
Wind Dancer
126 posts
Location: USA, east coast
Posted:
You might be right, Rouge. Maybe they did specifically want it to stir up commotion for the public attention. Perhaps I have too much faith in humanity to believe that they didn't suggest it purely as a marketing scheme. Since they are taking over an existing building, maybe they just thought the building would be perfect, and thought they would be far enough away from Ground Zero where it wouldn't cause so much fuss. Or maybe not. It's hard to tell the intentions of people you do not know. Either way, they certainly are getting a lot of publicity.
Refuge - You're probably right, it would just be easier for them to move the community center elsewhere. My issue is that they shouldn't have to, but it seems if they want the center to be a place of peace, that is what it will take. And obnoxious probably is the better word, but I hold a lot of spite towards people who stir up arguments over nothing.
You might be right, Rouge. Maybe they did specifically want it to stir up commotion for the public attention. Perhaps I have too much faith in humanity to believe that they didn't suggest it purely as a marketing scheme. Since they are taking over an existing building, maybe they just thought the building would be perfect, and thought they would be far enough away from Ground Zero where it wouldn't cause so much fuss. Or maybe not. It's hard to tell the intentions of people you do not know. Either way, they certainly are getting a lot of publicity.
Refuge - You're probably right, it would just be easier for them to move the community center elsewhere. My issue is that they shouldn't have to, but it seems if they want the center to be a place of peace, that is what it will take. And obnoxious probably is the better word, but I hold a lot of spite towards people who stir up arguments over nothing.
Impermanent are all created things;
Strive on with awareness.
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Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Now I'm wondering as for how many entire buildings the same size are available in Manhattan?
Now I'm wondering as for how many entire buildings the same size are available in Manhattan?
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
Wind Dancer
126 posts
Location: USA, east coast
Wind Dancer
126 posts
Location: USA, east coast
Posted:
Precisely. Maybe they really can't build it anywhere else, it's either build there, or nowhere. But I really don't know all the details and I'm frankly too lazy to research it u.u
Precisely. Maybe they really can't build it anywhere else, it's either build there, or nowhere. But I really don't know all the details and I'm frankly too lazy to research it u.u
Impermanent are all created things;
Strive on with awareness.
- Buddha
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
not saying they can't but maybe it's the only one they can afford...
not saying they can't but maybe it's the only one they can afford...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
Cooler than bubblegum!
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Cooler than bubblegum!
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Location: Dallas, Texas, USA
Posted:
HA! In uptown Manhattan! Do you have any idea what one sq foot of Manhattan goes for?! They can afford a better building 2 blocks into mid-town Manhattan
HA! In uptown Manhattan! Do you have any idea what one sq foot of Manhattan goes for?! They can afford a better building 2 blocks into mid-town Manhattan
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Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
not saying they haven't got any money either - just asking whether there actually IS an entire building of the right size available anywhere in Manhattan.. maybe they should move upstate then?
not saying they haven't got any money either - just asking whether there actually IS an entire building of the right size available anywhere in Manhattan.. maybe they should move upstate then?
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Posted:
Upstate??
Forgive me if I'm wrong... but wouldn't that be serving an entirely different community?
Upstate??
Forgive me if I'm wrong... but wouldn't that be serving an entirely different community?
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