Forums > Social Discussion > German Grammar
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Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
I was wondering what people thought of the German language reform
I don't speak Germanin any form, but I find it interesting that there are official changes coming in.
Does anyone know if the changes are becoming more in line with practical grammar that is actually used in speech? Reading the article it seems not. And I'm not sure how that is going to work. I'm all for language change; it's something that happens naturally. But to change language artificially, well, I'm not sure that's going to work because it's a forced change.
However like I said, I don't speak German, so I'm interested in what both the native speakers and the second-language speakers think.
I was wondering what people thought of the German language reform
I don't speak Germanin any form, but I find it interesting that there are official changes coming in.
Does anyone know if the changes are becoming more in line with practical grammar that is actually used in speech? Reading the article it seems not. And I'm not sure how that is going to work. I'm all for language change; it's something that happens naturally. But to change language artificially, well, I'm not sure that's going to work because it's a forced change.
However like I said, I don't speak German, so I'm interested in what both the native speakers and the second-language speakers think.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
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Lambretta Fanatic
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Posted:
All i can possibly add is that learning Italian, taught me a lot about English language, and how bad it can be. IT also made me realise how much English I did not know before.
All i can possibly add is that learning Italian, taught me a lot about English language, and how bad it can be. IT also made me realise how much English I did not know before.
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Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
That's a really common thing actually; that people learn about their own language while learning their second
That's a really common thing actually; that people learn about their own language while learning their second
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
SILVER Member
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Posted:
well there goes three years of learning german....
well there goes three years of learning german....
There is nothing to be afraid of. Virtual reality will eventually rehabilitate your mind and eventually your body. Everything will be allright, i promise. Just concentrate. Try some music.
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Posted:
si ma ora sembre dopo due anni lingua italiano e il mio primo e l'inglese secondo.
now it seems that after 2 years that italian is my first language.. and english my second.
So if you read what i say and seems a bit odd so to speak... then you know why.
si ma ora sembre dopo due anni lingua italiano e il mio primo e l'inglese secondo.
now it seems that after 2 years that italian is my first language.. and english my second.
So if you read what i say and seems a bit odd so to speak... then you know why.
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Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
I could actually understand that italia from 4 years of latin I took 15 years ago
I can understand how that helped your english as latin helped mine considerably.
drvariety my 5 years will go out the window then 
I could actually understand that italia from 4 years of latin I took 15 years ago
I can understand how that helped your english as latin helped mine considerably. drvariety my 5 years will go out the window then A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
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had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
The article isn't very informative. But the language reform, as I know of it, is more of spelling than of grammar in the first place. It has some good ideas, for example replacing the ß by ss in many cases so that it is clear when to use which, but others, well, just don't get me started. As for changing rules for commata, that's just the worst thing they did because it just puts down the standard of people's writing so much
The article isn't very informative. But the language reform, as I know of it, is more of spelling than of grammar in the first place. It has some good ideas, for example replacing the ß by ss in many cases so that it is clear when to use which, but others, well, just don't get me started. As for changing rules for commata, that's just the worst thing they did because it just puts down the standard of people's writing so much
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
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Location: Groningen, Netherlands
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Location: Groningen, Netherlands
Posted:
In Germany it is indeed the spelling that is changing. The words will be pronounced the same way as before. Some words will be written as one and others will be seperated by a comma.
It's more or less the same as the grammar change in Holland. The word "pancake" became in grammar "panScake". But it hasn't changed in the language, it is still pronounced as pancake.
In Germany it is indeed the spelling that is changing. The words will be pronounced the same way as before. Some words will be written as one and others will be seperated by a comma.
It's more or less the same as the grammar change in Holland. The word "pancake" became in grammar "panScake". But it hasn't changed in the language, it is still pronounced as pancake.
Sunshine or rain, it's not anymore the same...
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Location: here
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Posted:
hi i-m german..what to say about this??
live is going on in germay..some things chjanced but you don-t here the difference..you just see it if you write some words.like old DELPHIN now delfin or we have this nice
sharp "S" written like "ß" spoken like double "s"
now if you have the word "Nußschale" you write it i hope (!!!) -nutskin ??
"Nussschale" this was a mistake if i learned german at school..
anyway. now i learned some english,french, and spanish,,as well i-ve a german dialect with some different words..
i don-t care about this ..
i-m still alive
but if foreign people have to learn new german grammar..i think thats hard...if mostly all ,especially old germans,don-t understand and know about this chance
love
from hamburg
josh
"
"und Deutsch war schon immer eine furchtbar schwere Sprache.."
hi i-m german..what to say about this??
live is going on in germay..some things chjanced but you don-t here the difference..you just see it if you write some words.like old DELPHIN now delfin or we have this nice
sharp "S" written like "ß" spoken like double "s"
now if you have the word "Nußschale" you write it i hope (!!!) -nutskin ??
"Nussschale" this was a mistake if i learned german at school..
anyway. now i learned some english,french, and spanish,,as well i-ve a german dialect with some different words..
i don-t care about this ..
i-m still alive
but if foreign people have to learn new german grammar..i think thats hard...if mostly all ,especially old germans,don-t understand and know about this chance
love
from hamburg
josh
"
"und Deutsch war schon immer eine furchtbar schwere Sprache.."
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
As stated: German grammar remains pretty much the same. What changes/d is German spelling, the use of capital letters, combined words and the use of punctuation (comma and the like).
Many ("germanized") words derive from Latin and French and some Greek (mostly science) - reason for that being partial occupation of "Germany" by the Romans, close ties between Germany and France and (foremost) that German as a language was not accepted by the ruling class and clerics far into the 16th and even 17th century. It was regarded "peasant language" - not "pleasant"...
Royals and clerics spoke either French or Latin. However it started with Luthers translation of the Bible into German (* the Bible was not available in French or English or any other European language before, as the clerics demanded their right to be the only ones to be able to interpret the word of god - a privilege priests have demanded for themselves in all kinds of religions throughout time). After Luther translated the Bible and questioned the authority of the roman catholic church (followed by devastating secular wars), German became more widely accepted. (Yeah well, Germany have been troublemakers throughout time and led the last European revolution which ended the communist totalitarian regime, however)
Now we are facing the problem that words are written different than they are spelled. Many languages face this...
It would be similar to English changing like:
ridiculous -> ridiculus
disguise -> disgise
completely -> completly
Or the French finally admitting that they simply can't pronounce "Hotel" in a "proper" way
Next problem is that more than a third of German students do have a different ethnic background and it's vogue to oppose anything "German". "It's a fu**ed up country with a fu**ed up climate and a narrow minded mindset!"... (funny enough I find enough immigrants who happily adjust a lot more than necessary). But since Germany has "lost" most of it's "pride" during WWI + II and tries to make it up to anyone (but itself), since students complained so much about how hard it is to learn German - efforts have been taken to raise the grades of students by lowering the scientific standards of language.
This has been highly critizised by intellectuals and the "reform" has gotten "reformed" a few times. The intellectual and older generation will continue "proper" spelling, the press is adapting a "light" version of the reform, if students use the old spelling it's mostly accepted (for some period of time).
But then a "Photographer" will become a "Fotograf" ( it already is) a "Couch" will be a "Kautsch", etc.
Personally I think it's sad. Not that I oppose change, but German is a beautiful language. As any other language it has significantly changed over the past centuries (much like English... read Shakespeare) and it will change more. Why forcing it? And what about "ä, ö, ü"? What about those letters (like the "sharp" ß)...
Over the years I started to appreciate German language and now can even listen to it in music (if it's HipHop and Rap or anything BUT greasy popmusic). 'ts funny that the same phrase sung in English sounds not half as ridiculous to my ear, as if it would sound in German...
"C'mon baby, baby yeah, yeah..." But mybe I'm just a Pirate....
As stated: German grammar remains pretty much the same. What changes/d is German spelling, the use of capital letters, combined words and the use of punctuation (comma and the like).
Many ("germanized") words derive from Latin and French and some Greek (mostly science) - reason for that being partial occupation of "Germany" by the Romans, close ties between Germany and France and (foremost) that German as a language was not accepted by the ruling class and clerics far into the 16th and even 17th century. It was regarded "peasant language" - not "pleasant"...
Royals and clerics spoke either French or Latin. However it started with Luthers translation of the Bible into German (* the Bible was not available in French or English or any other European language before, as the clerics demanded their right to be the only ones to be able to interpret the word of god - a privilege priests have demanded for themselves in all kinds of religions throughout time). After Luther translated the Bible and questioned the authority of the roman catholic church (followed by devastating secular wars), German became more widely accepted. (Yeah well, Germany have been troublemakers throughout time and led the last European revolution which ended the communist totalitarian regime, however)
Now we are facing the problem that words are written different than they are spelled. Many languages face this...
It would be similar to English changing like:
ridiculous -> ridiculus
disguise -> disgise
completely -> completly
Or the French finally admitting that they simply can't pronounce "Hotel" in a "proper" way
Next problem is that more than a third of German students do have a different ethnic background and it's vogue to oppose anything "German". "It's a fu**ed up country with a fu**ed up climate and a narrow minded mindset!"... (funny enough I find enough immigrants who happily adjust a lot more than necessary). But since Germany has "lost" most of it's "pride" during WWI + II and tries to make it up to anyone (but itself), since students complained so much about how hard it is to learn German - efforts have been taken to raise the grades of students by lowering the scientific standards of language.
This has been highly critizised by intellectuals and the "reform" has gotten "reformed" a few times. The intellectual and older generation will continue "proper" spelling, the press is adapting a "light" version of the reform, if students use the old spelling it's mostly accepted (for some period of time).
But then a "Photographer" will become a "Fotograf" (
it already is) a "Couch" will be a "Kautsch", etc.Personally I think it's sad. Not that I oppose change, but German is a beautiful language. As any other language it has significantly changed over the past centuries (much like English... read Shakespeare) and it will change more. Why forcing it? And what about "ä, ö, ü"? What about those letters (like the "sharp" ß)...
Over the years I started to appreciate German language and now can even listen to it in music (if it's HipHop and Rap or anything BUT greasy popmusic). 'ts funny that the same phrase sung in English sounds not half as ridiculous to my ear, as if it would sound in German...
"C'mon baby, baby yeah, yeah..." But mybe I'm just a Pirate.... the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
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had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
The song thing is because you can block it out, even if you understand it. I notice it every time I hear people talking about stupid nonsense, say in the supermarket or at airports. If it's English, French or Italian, I may understand it or most of it, but I don't have to listen, whereas if it's German I can't help but notice it.
As for the reform, I'm all for reforms. I think English spelling should also be reformed, there is no need to have similar spelling but different pronunciation for many words such as hear/bear, out/you, wild/wilderness etc and it does confuse people. But IF a reform than a proper reform and not a half-arsed attempt at making things right for everyone and ultimately helping noone as what has been happening.
The press rightly think that it is not a good idea and it is stupid to follow it. But in blocking it, they are making the reform even worse - if everyone tried to go along with it, at least in 5 years or so people could pick up from where it ended, check which bits worked well and continue from there. But the newspapers seemed to have nothing better to do than to go along with the reform and then, just a month or so before the trial period was over and the changes were mandatory, change back and go "in your face, won't do it anymore, na na na naanaa!" like some 5-year-old child. Which was made worse because they were some of the better/more serious newspapers and magazines, and people listen to their opinions.
The song thing is because you can block it out, even if you understand it. I notice it every time I hear people talking about stupid nonsense, say in the supermarket or at airports. If it's English, French or Italian, I may understand it or most of it, but I don't have to listen, whereas if it's German I can't help but notice it.
As for the reform, I'm all for reforms. I think English spelling should also be reformed, there is no need to have similar spelling but different pronunciation for many words such as hear/bear, out/you, wild/wilderness etc and it does confuse people. But IF a reform than a proper reform and not a half-arsed attempt at making things right for everyone and ultimately helping noone as what has been happening.
The press rightly think that it is not a good idea and it is stupid to follow it. But in blocking it, they are making the reform even worse - if everyone tried to go along with it, at least in 5 years or so people could pick up from where it ended, check which bits worked well and continue from there. But the newspapers seemed to have nothing better to do than to go along with the reform and then, just a month or so before the trial period was over and the changes were mandatory, change back and go "in your face, won't do it anymore, na na na naanaa!" like some 5-year-old child. Which was made worse because they were some of the better/more serious newspapers and magazines, and people listen to their opinions.
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
BRONZE Member
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Insert Champagne Here
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Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
hee hee! i'm learning about why those words are spelt the same but sound different at the moment!
And actually, although people don't realise it, things like "wild" and "wilderness" even though they sound different, they're not as confusing as they first appear because the indicate relationship.
But we're not talking about english here
Written by: Birgit
I think English spelling should also be reformed, there is no need to have similar spelling but different pronunciation for many words such as hear/bear, out/you, wild/wilderness etc and it does confuse people.
hee hee! i'm learning about why those words are spelt the same but sound different at the moment!
And actually, although people don't realise it, things like "wild" and "wilderness" even though they sound different, they're not as confusing as they first appear because the indicate relationship.
But we're not talking about english here
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
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had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
Just one of many examples why reforms are a good idea if done properly. It's not a question of whether there are some rules based on word roots 1500 years old that made sense at the time and still serve as an explanation, but of how relevant they still are to the current use/spelling/pronunciation. Language is dynamic after all. Of course you don't have to make an official spelling reform every 5 years, but some of the English spelling could do with a reform (and that's not just me as a non-native speaker saying it).
Just one of many examples why reforms are a good idea if done properly. It's not a question of whether there are some rules based on word roots 1500 years old that made sense at the time and still serve as an explanation, but of how relevant they still are to the current use/spelling/pronunciation. Language is dynamic after all. Of course you don't have to make an official spelling reform every 5 years, but some of the English spelling could do with a reform (and that's not just me as a non-native speaker saying it
). "vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
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Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
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Posted:
English 1500 years ago was closer to German than anything else
English 1500 years ago was closer to German than anything else
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
hello!
1,034 posts
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
hello!
1,034 posts
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posted:
since that spelling-reform, my German got so wobbly. I just ain't sure any more whether words are old-German, new-German, middle-German (there were two spelling-reforms, if I remember it correctly), nor German at all and what I am supposed to do with it"ignore it, play along, protest, be creative with the language, use many foreign words, not use any foreign words at all
*sigh* It's hopeless
since that spelling-reform, my German got so wobbly. I just ain't sure any more whether words are old-German, new-German, middle-German (there were two spelling-reforms, if I remember it correctly), nor German at all and what I am supposed to do with it"ignore it, play along, protest, be creative with the language, use many foreign words, not use any foreign words at all
*sigh* It's hopeless
a swapped test-playboy, set free by NOn, idolizing the tea fairy; Dragosani spiritual freedom agreement reached 18th Sept 2006
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had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
What Aurinko says
We actually got the Lord's Prayer or something similar from 800 AD (Gaelic, Germanic and a bit of Roman), 1200 AD (similar but mixed with French) and some time later, too, to read in school, it was good fun And not everything with a German root makes sense, after all, I don't 
What Aurinko says
We actually got the Lord's Prayer or something similar from 800 AD (Gaelic, Germanic and a bit of Roman), 1200 AD (similar but mixed with French) and some time later, too, to read in school, it was good fun
And not everything with a German root makes sense, after all, I don't "vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
Stargazer
6,650 posts
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Posted:
Brief (historical) overview on German language
I understand that a reform can be useful. But what has changed to make it necessary? I'd say it could be comparable with reforming english pronounciation to txt.
However, pronounciation "rules" give hints on "how to pronounce" a word. Same in English as in German ("Jörmän")... would we have to start using different pronounciation keys for foreign languages? Meaning that "English" would be spelled "Inglisch" by the Germans and "Inglish" by the French? So ppl would not get confused?
If anything is spelled the way it's spoken - educate me in England or the US - at least in Northern Germany one would spell very different from another in the South... no? We read the same words but use different sounds to express what we are reading...
In the "traditional" way, we can investigate into the roots of a word (more easy), understand where it comes from/ what it means. I would even claim that "playing with words and meanings", emphaSizing on individual letters and therefore find alternate ways to Xpress various aspecs of what one wants to say is easier in the "traditional" way.
Guess you can tell that I am against the German spelling reform. I believe that in certain cases "confusion" is helpful to woManKind. I believe that there is nothing more deadly to creativity and alertness than a plain 6-lane straight highway all the way from Sydney to Cairns...
Our schooling system is not necessarily designed to make ppl think/ to be creative, but to follow rules and NOT to think (for ones self). I find it scary to teach children to wait for green light (and the illusion to be safe by doing so) when there is no car approaching. It means to take away the individual ability to judge and transfer it to a bulb in a housing. "you can't cast a judgement, you have to depend on a machine" (which in German would be spelled "maschine")...
Okay, maybe I'm taking this a little (too) far...
Rouge, would you kindly edit the title (should be pronounced "titel" however), as the reform is NOT about German Grammar, but spelling?
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1188818446)
Brief (historical) overview on German language
I understand that a reform can be useful. But what has changed to make it necessary? I'd say it could be comparable with reforming english pronounciation to txt.
However, pronounciation "rules" give hints on "how to pronounce" a word. Same in English as in German ("Jörmän")... would we have to start using different pronounciation keys for foreign languages? Meaning that "English" would be spelled "Inglisch" by the Germans and "Inglish" by the French? So ppl would not get confused?
If anything is spelled the way it's spoken - educate me in England or the US - at least in Northern Germany one would spell very different from another in the South... no? We read the same words but use different sounds to express what we are reading...
In the "traditional" way, we can investigate into the roots of a word (more easy), understand where it comes from/ what it means. I would even claim that "playing with words and meanings", emphaSizing on individual letters and therefore find alternate ways to Xpress various aspecs of what one wants to say is easier in the "traditional" way.
Guess you can tell that I am against the German spelling reform. I believe that in certain cases "confusion" is helpful to woManKind. I believe that there is nothing more deadly to creativity and alertness than a plain 6-lane straight highway all the way from Sydney to Cairns...
Our schooling system is not necessarily designed to make ppl think/ to be creative, but to follow rules and NOT to think (for ones self). I find it scary to teach children to wait for green light (and the illusion to be safe by doing so) when there is no car approaching. It means to take away the individual ability to judge and transfer it to a bulb in a housing. "you can't cast a judgement, you have to depend on a machine" (which in German would be spelled "maschine")...
Okay, maybe I'm taking this a little (too) far...
Rouge, would you kindly edit the title (should be pronounced "titel" however), as the reform is NOT about German Grammar, but spelling?
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1188818446)
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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