Forums > Social Discussion > The Effects of Free Performing
Login/Join to ParticipateMember
52 posts
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
52 posts
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Posted:
Hey all,
I would like to make a thread to inform everyone on the firetwirling industry that is being taken advantage of by many corperate bodies. Our art is no different than painting or film makers. We have a skill that is available to the community and we are being taken advantage of because of the lack of information that is out there for performers. Thats why i am writting this thread and need everyone to read this and post any information that i have left out. I am going to focus on 2 issues this poses for the future of fire twirling.
1. When someone performs for free it takes away business from the professional performers that spend their days perfecting their skills and routines.
2. Because most people who do work for free are amateurs, the quality of the performance is not as good as it would be from a professional. The corportations usually dont use firetwirlers again because there wasnt a good response from the crowd. And therefore more business is lost for professional performers.
So we need to stand up against the corporations who make millions of dollars each year and take advantage of our unorganised artform. They will tell you that they are doing you a favour and trying to give you 'experience', but all they want is free entertainment. Next time you are approached to perform for free, tell them that you will not do it. Tell them that you should be payed for your services and will not be taken advantage of. It is the for the good of the industry.
Now im sure there are alot of people out there that think im like a crazy 'twirling nazi'. But believe me, fire twirling has a great future for some people and in the future i wish to be one of those people. Would you paint a picture for a cafe for free? It is the same concept.
Please invite everyone to read and write in this thread. This is an important discussion for our industry.
Jai.
Hey all,
I would like to make a thread to inform everyone on the firetwirling industry that is being taken advantage of by many corperate bodies. Our art is no different than painting or film makers. We have a skill that is available to the community and we are being taken advantage of because of the lack of information that is out there for performers. Thats why i am writting this thread and need everyone to read this and post any information that i have left out. I am going to focus on 2 issues this poses for the future of fire twirling.
1. When someone performs for free it takes away business from the professional performers that spend their days perfecting their skills and routines.
2. Because most people who do work for free are amateurs, the quality of the performance is not as good as it would be from a professional. The corportations usually dont use firetwirlers again because there wasnt a good response from the crowd. And therefore more business is lost for professional performers.
So we need to stand up against the corporations who make millions of dollars each year and take advantage of our unorganised artform. They will tell you that they are doing you a favour and trying to give you 'experience', but all they want is free entertainment. Next time you are approached to perform for free, tell them that you will not do it. Tell them that you should be payed for your services and will not be taken advantage of. It is the for the good of the industry.
Now im sure there are alot of people out there that think im like a crazy 'twirling nazi'. But believe me, fire twirling has a great future for some people and in the future i wish to be one of those people. Would you paint a picture for a cafe for free? It is the same concept.
Please invite everyone to read and write in this thread. This is an important discussion for our industry.
Jai.
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
The solution is simple, really, if your concerns revolve around safety, simply educate those who are posing the problem. Safety information is readily available online, it's simply a matter of accessing it and distributing it, there's no need for a union or magazine. If the 'offenders" refuse your efforts, then educate their customers.
But, if your concerns are being undercut by the competition, then you're up against the law of supply and demand. Your options are either create more demand ( this isn't easy, but it works for us ) or move to a location where there's less competition.
There's always the option of collaborating with the competition too, I'm just about to wade into those waters tonight. woooohoooo, I'm going to be a fire spinning bat. See, thing is lots of people thing about going pro ( especially rank newbies ) and when they actually find out how much work this really is, we've found out they quite often have a change of heart. For instance, the bat thing is going to take three rehearsals over the next week.
Sorry I couldn't be more inspiring, but I've been in this game for over two years now, and have come to realize that the paid gigs lie more in the public sector ( community festivals etc. yes these guys do pay our rates ) than the private sector ( corporate )
Plus, why would a corporate event planner even care about getting free talent? They're not spending their money, it's the companies, and if the act were to flop, it would be the planners problem, not the performers. It's a you get what you pay for thing.
If the free performance types are willing to do their own gigs for free ( be it for love or whatever ) then who'd to say they won't spin for free at "your" gig ?
The solution is simple, really, if your concerns revolve around safety, simply educate those who are posing the problem. Safety information is readily available online, it's simply a matter of accessing it and distributing it, there's no need for a union or magazine. If the 'offenders" refuse your efforts, then educate their customers.
But, if your concerns are being undercut by the competition, then you're up against the law of supply and demand. Your options are either create more demand ( this isn't easy, but it works for us ) or move to a location where there's less competition.
There's always the option of collaborating with the competition too, I'm just about to wade into those waters tonight. woooohoooo, I'm going to be a fire spinning bat. See, thing is lots of people thing about going pro ( especially rank newbies ) and when they actually find out how much work this really is, we've found out they quite often have a change of heart. For instance, the bat thing is going to take three rehearsals over the next week.
Sorry I couldn't be more inspiring, but I've been in this game for over two years now, and have come to realize that the paid gigs lie more in the public sector ( community festivals etc. yes these guys do pay our rates ) than the private sector ( corporate )
Plus, why would a corporate event planner even care about getting free talent? They're not spending their money, it's the companies, and if the act were to flop, it would be the planners problem, not the performers. It's a you get what you pay for thing.
If the free performance types are willing to do their own gigs for free ( be it for love or whatever ) then who'd to say they won't spin for free at "your" gig ?
Precision instrument of speed and aromatics
240 posts
Location: Vienna
240 posts
Location: Vienna
Posted:
How can one possibly determine aptitude level?
What do you judge that on? technical skill? tightness of choreographies? the number of sequins on your costumes? Who would judge such a thing?
And then what about groups such as mine (Fenfire), who are continuously changing, developing new routines, concepts and technique. Would be have to be judged on a monthly basis?
Its impossible to asign such arbitary classifications because everybody's opinion on what a fire show should be is different. And that is as it should be.
As for the issue of unionising ... its a wonderfully utopian idea, but we are talking about something which most people get into for fun and don't seriously think about going pro. You can't unionise such people, because they (generally) aren't interested in making enough money to live, just on a free night out.
As Stout said
and, like any industry, the only way to survive is to stay ahead of the competition. Promoters that have real money to spend are interested in a quality show. This means constumes, routines and stage presence, not just someone who can spin fire ... however technically good they might be.
Written by: Aeori
A union or even a buisness run by someone or a few people. For example one in the south of england with a list of preformers with rates based on aptitude level. On the internet so that people would be able to find out about it.
How can one possibly determine aptitude level?
What do you judge that on? technical skill? tightness of choreographies? the number of sequins on your costumes? Who would judge such a thing?
And then what about groups such as mine (Fenfire), who are continuously changing, developing new routines, concepts and technique. Would be have to be judged on a monthly basis?
Its impossible to asign such arbitary classifications because everybody's opinion on what a fire show should be is different. And that is as it should be.
As for the issue of unionising ... its a wonderfully utopian idea, but we are talking about something which most people get into for fun and don't seriously think about going pro. You can't unionise such people, because they (generally) aren't interested in making enough money to live, just on a free night out.
As Stout said
Written by: stout
you're up against the law of supply and demand.
and, like any industry, the only way to survive is to stay ahead of the competition. Promoters that have real money to spend are interested in a quality show. This means constumes, routines and stage presence, not just someone who can spin fire ... however technically good they might be.
Not a spinner!
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,750 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,750 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Posted:
and i disagree again, a professional performer is someone who performs for a living. good or bad, safe or sorry. A good profesional stays profesional, a bad professional dosnt get hired twice. but both are still profesional as long as they are working. Wightout an overreaching body that controles who is alowed to work in performance (there used to be one, equity, but that has lost a lot of its powers in recent years) then it is left to market forces to control.
In fact when it comes to the kind of gigs that peaple will get paid for, the only place wher it really makes a diffrence is clubs. In all other events, be it corperate or public the clients are quite willing to pay for saftey and quality, but in clubs there are so many who will turn up, even pay thier door fee and spin anyway, that trying to make any kind of living as a club performer is very hard. This is my experiance anyway.
T
Written by: Kathain_Bowen
See, I have to disagree for this on one aspect, one, very terrible, and rather taboo aspect to shout out: Not all paid performers are true professional performers.
and i disagree again, a professional performer is someone who performs for a living. good or bad, safe or sorry. A good profesional stays profesional, a bad professional dosnt get hired twice. but both are still profesional as long as they are working. Wightout an overreaching body that controles who is alowed to work in performance (there used to be one, equity, but that has lost a lot of its powers in recent years) then it is left to market forces to control.
In fact when it comes to the kind of gigs that peaple will get paid for, the only place wher it really makes a diffrence is clubs. In all other events, be it corperate or public the clients are quite willing to pay for saftey and quality, but in clubs there are so many who will turn up, even pay thier door fee and spin anyway, that trying to make any kind of living as a club performer is very hard. This is my experiance anyway.
T
This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
Good Ol' Yarn For Hair
422 posts
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
422 posts
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posted:
"Bad professionals" do get hired twice.... trust me.... they do... *shaking head* I've seen it enough to realize.
The previous post was poorly worded to appropriately convey the sentiment I was trying to put forth. My fault all together; I should have woken up more before writing. I was trying to convey less that the ideal of a professional and the protection of yourself over your competition instead of worrying about non-charging people really taking performances and events. Since a performer cannot rely on a governing body, licensing system, or anything of nature, they must rely on themselves, their presentation skills, and their resume of safe, well performed and recieved events to really shine for them.
There will always be "free" people in any medium and in any business area, but that does not mean they are going to take all the business from professionals. Just as there will always be people who should not be in fields that are completely inappropriate for them, charging for events. In either case, so long as you continue to market yourself well, maintain a sparkling reputation for your results, and be professional in the more abstract terms of the word, your competition should be a null aspect.
My teachers have always instilled in the students they taught (myself included) a strong ideal of what a professional person is being defined less by payment and more of a combination of personal presentation, behavior and end product. This went even through high school. All through my college career, the vast majority of my teachers actually set aside a portion of the grade specifically for "professionalism." I sometimes forget now, that I'm a graduate and out of that community, not everyone thinks the same way to define a professional from a non-professional.
Many sorrys. I promise, I will put the laptop down and have my first cup of coffee before replying again!
EDITED_BY: Kathain_Bowen (1161196254)
Written by: [Nx?
and i disagree again, a professional performer is someone who performs for a living. good or bad, safe or sorry. A good profesional stays profesional, a bad professional dosnt get hired twice.
"Bad professionals" do get hired twice.... trust me.... they do... *shaking head* I've seen it enough to realize.
The previous post was poorly worded to appropriately convey the sentiment I was trying to put forth. My fault all together; I should have woken up more before writing. I was trying to convey less that the ideal of a professional and the protection of yourself over your competition instead of worrying about non-charging people really taking performances and events. Since a performer cannot rely on a governing body, licensing system, or anything of nature, they must rely on themselves, their presentation skills, and their resume of safe, well performed and recieved events to really shine for them. There will always be "free" people in any medium and in any business area, but that does not mean they are going to take all the business from professionals. Just as there will always be people who should not be in fields that are completely inappropriate for them, charging for events. In either case, so long as you continue to market yourself well, maintain a sparkling reputation for your results, and be professional in the more abstract terms of the word, your competition should be a null aspect.
My teachers have always instilled in the students they taught (myself included) a strong ideal of what a professional person is being defined less by payment and more of a combination of personal presentation, behavior and end product. This went even through high school. All through my college career, the vast majority of my teachers actually set aside a portion of the grade specifically for "professionalism." I sometimes forget now, that I'm a graduate and out of that community, not everyone thinks the same way to define a professional from a non-professional.
Many sorrys. I promise, I will put the laptop down and have my first cup of coffee before replying again!
EDITED_BY: Kathain_Bowen (1161196254)
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Precision instrument of speed and aromatics
240 posts
Location: Vienna
240 posts
Location: Vienna
Posted:
My sentiments exactly
And far more eloquently put than I can manage at the moment
My sentiments exactly
And far more eloquently put than I can manage at the moment
Not a spinner!
SILVER Member
journeyman
78 posts
Location: Kent, UK
journeyman
78 posts
Location: Kent, UK
Posted:
No trade association or union can represent all of the people all of the time and there will always be an element of "just who do they think they are, telling us what to do". This happened to the PSA in the early days and to begin with it seemed that just about everybody had a reason not to join. Companies saw it as a union, crew saw it as a management organisation, theatre people saw it as a roadies' club and others swore they would never ever join any association with such-and-such on the council.
Even so, whatever the personal political feelings, the fact of life we've had to face backstage in the live events business, is that if we don't regulate ourselves and set our own standards (even if some of us disagree with them), then we will be regulated and have those standards set by the authorities, who know nothing of what we do and can rarely be bothered to find out, in their haste to "protect the public".
In the end, it's the membership (or at least the active portion of it, which is often a minority) of any association, which decides what path it takes; by joining up, throwing their 2 shekels into the ring, voting for the way forward and the people who who oversee it.
No trade association or union can represent all of the people all of the time and there will always be an element of "just who do they think they are, telling us what to do". This happened to the PSA in the early days and to begin with it seemed that just about everybody had a reason not to join. Companies saw it as a union, crew saw it as a management organisation, theatre people saw it as a roadies' club and others swore they would never ever join any association with such-and-such on the council.
Even so, whatever the personal political feelings, the fact of life we've had to face backstage in the live events business, is that if we don't regulate ourselves and set our own standards (even if some of us disagree with them), then we will be regulated and have those standards set by the authorities, who know nothing of what we do and can rarely be bothered to find out, in their haste to "protect the public".
In the end, it's the membership (or at least the active portion of it, which is often a minority) of any association, which decides what path it takes; by joining up, throwing their 2 shekels into the ring, voting for the way forward and the people who who oversee it.
It may stop, but it never ends.
Good Ol' Yarn For Hair
422 posts
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
422 posts
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posted:
Thanksies!
Sometimes, I open my mouth, and pretty words come out. About an equal amount of the time, the inner "Jersey" in me comes out and you get a strange cobbling of profanities that shouldn't make any sense.
Written by: _Y_
And far more eloquently put than I can manage at the moment
Thanksies!
Sometimes, I open my mouth, and pretty words come out. About an equal amount of the time, the inner "Jersey" in me comes out and you get a strange cobbling of profanities that shouldn't make any sense.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
GOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland
Posted:
Its no differnt than any other industry in terms of good acts and bad acts. Theres plenty of bad plumbers in the world.
Actors turn up for auditions, if they are crap, they dont get hired.
But who is going audition a plumber?
I agree with nx? The final, deciding body is the employer, who will either hire you again or not and your rep will travel through word of mouth.
Aside from setting up a union full of hippies, or a governing body... of hippies... if you really want to make a difference the solution is not in the hands of other people. Its your own duty to raise the standard. Its your job to prove that your act is better and safer than that act for whatever reasons. This is competition.
What good would a governing body be if only the best acts got shows. Can anyone say Monopoly?
Its no differnt than any other industry in terms of good acts and bad acts. Theres plenty of bad plumbers in the world.
Actors turn up for auditions, if they are crap, they dont get hired.
But who is going audition a plumber?
I agree with nx? The final, deciding body is the employer, who will either hire you again or not and your rep will travel through word of mouth.
Aside from setting up a union full of hippies, or a governing body... of hippies... if you really want to make a difference the solution is not in the hands of other people. Its your own duty to raise the standard. Its your job to prove that your act is better and safer than that act for whatever reasons. This is competition.
What good would a governing body be if only the best acts got shows. Can anyone say Monopoly?
Love is the law.
Good Ol' Yarn For Hair
422 posts
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
422 posts
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posted:
I've been trying to figure out the best way to basically say just that.
Written by: ado-p
if you really want to make a difference the solution is not in the hands of other people. Its your own duty to raise the standard. Its your job to prove that your act is better and safer than that act for whatever reasons.
I've been trying to figure out the best way to basically say just that.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
A few quick points cuz I gotta run.
Firstly, some of the "Organized Professional Fire Troupes" that I've seen and met are the most disorganized unprofessional people I've ever met.
Some amatures have day jobs which require them to be more "organized and professional" people than a fire troupe.
I'm not saying that's the rule, but it's certainly present. I OBVIOUSLY know many very professional and organized fire troupes. [I OBVIOUSLY know many very professional and organized fire troupes for those who missed it the first time.]
I also think firespinning is a profession where you can get by with a LOWER level of professionalism than in many other careers. [Anticpates flaming...]
My other unrelated point is I think there's a HUGE difference between spinning free for a corporate gig and spinning free for a party/festival/etc... I think Burningman would be a perfect example. It's an entire collective of artists expressing themselves. It would be absoulutely obnoxous to say "Don't spin in the conclave unless they pay everyone."
Also, I think it depends on the market and the situation. In New York City, it's illegal to spin anywhere. Parks, rivers, etc. And it's enforced. So, essentially, if you want to spin legally the ONLY opportunity you have is parties and gigs.
I've said it before, if professional spinners can't set yourself apart from us amatures than firespinning isn't a product to be sold.
Nobody's going to confuse a Flame Oz performance with me freestying in a pair of jeans and a TShirt.
If an artist wants to make money by selling art and nobody's buying, it's the artists fault for not creating something marketable.
And lastly and most flamably:
If you are trying to sell a product which others will happily produce for free, and consumers can't tell the difference, then your product doesn't deserve to sell.
OK, cue my exit music...
"You can hate me now..."
Non-Https Image Link
OK, Hate Me Now.
A few quick points cuz I gotta run.
Firstly, some of the "Organized Professional Fire Troupes" that I've seen and met are the most disorganized unprofessional people I've ever met.
Some amatures have day jobs which require them to be more "organized and professional" people than a fire troupe.
I'm not saying that's the rule, but it's certainly present. I OBVIOUSLY know many very professional and organized fire troupes. [I OBVIOUSLY know many very professional and organized fire troupes for those who missed it the first time.]
I also think firespinning is a profession where you can get by with a LOWER level of professionalism than in many other careers. [Anticpates flaming...]
My other unrelated point is I think there's a HUGE difference between spinning free for a corporate gig and spinning free for a party/festival/etc... I think Burningman would be a perfect example. It's an entire collective of artists expressing themselves. It would be absoulutely obnoxous to say "Don't spin in the conclave unless they pay everyone."
Also, I think it depends on the market and the situation. In New York City, it's illegal to spin anywhere. Parks, rivers, etc. And it's enforced. So, essentially, if you want to spin legally the ONLY opportunity you have is parties and gigs.
I've said it before, if professional spinners can't set yourself apart from us amatures than firespinning isn't a product to be sold.
Nobody's going to confuse a Flame Oz performance with me freestying in a pair of jeans and a TShirt.
If an artist wants to make money by selling art and nobody's buying, it's the artists fault for not creating something marketable.
And lastly and most flamably:
If you are trying to sell a product which others will happily produce for free, and consumers can't tell the difference, then your product doesn't deserve to sell.
OK, cue my exit music...
"You can hate me now..."
Non-Https Image Link
OK, Hate Me Now.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,750 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,750 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Posted:
*gets big flamethrower*
I love you NYC
T
*gets big flamethrower*
I love you NYC
T
This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
At this point, I think we should be on the same page when it comes to interpreting the word "professional" A true professional is one who derives his living from an activity, the key word there being living.
I may be in a group that bills itself as professional, but in reality we all have day jobs ( it's an appreciation of food and shelter thing ) and we only use the word for marketing purposes. Paid amateurs is a more appropriate description, but nobody's ever called us on it.
As an aside, we pay our safetys an equal share as performers.
At this point, I think we should be on the same page when it comes to interpreting the word "professional" A true professional is one who derives his living from an activity, the key word there being living.
I may be in a group that bills itself as professional, but in reality we all have day jobs ( it's an appreciation of food and shelter thing ) and we only use the word for marketing purposes. Paid amateurs is a more appropriate description, but nobody's ever called us on it.
As an aside, we pay our safetys an equal share as performers.
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,750 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,750 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Posted:
really?
wow, no way would i pay my safteys as much, if i had a stage manager or someone who was resposible for drilling safties, placement of gear and stuff, he would get the same, but the guys in yellow jackets only get a fraction.
If i charge £150 per performer to do something amazing that few other peaple can do, should i really pay someone else £150 for 20 mins standing around in a yellow jacket?
T
really?
wow, no way would i pay my safteys as much, if i had a stage manager or someone who was resposible for drilling safties, placement of gear and stuff, he would get the same, but the guys in yellow jackets only get a fraction.
If i charge £150 per performer to do something amazing that few other peaple can do, should i really pay someone else £150 for 20 mins standing around in a yellow jacket?
T
This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
Yep...but we just charge a flat rate for a show for anywhere between 2 and five performers. and make our decision on "what to do" depending on who's available, where the venue actually is, and the size of the stage. So far it hasn't been a problem.
I do see your point though. But our problem has been finding committed safetys, by which I mean safetys who actually pay attention to what's going on, rather than chatting up that hottie, or checking out the band.
Yep...but we just charge a flat rate for a show for anywhere between 2 and five performers. and make our decision on "what to do" depending on who's available, where the venue actually is, and the size of the stage. So far it hasn't been a problem.
I do see your point though. But our problem has been finding committed safetys, by which I mean safetys who actually pay attention to what's going on, rather than chatting up that hottie, or checking out the band.
GOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland
Posted:
I think its a bit of a different job for a saftey in the states and canada though eh?
More explosive fuels and what not...
I think its a bit of a different job for a saftey in the states and canada though eh?
More explosive fuels and what not...
Love is the law.
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
so the moral of this sotry is: Be better than everybody else.
And if they try and catch up. Run faster.
so the moral of this sotry is: Be better than everybody else.
And if they try and catch up. Run faster.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
member
77 posts
Location: Dorking(home), Sunderland(uni)
77 posts
Location: Dorking(home), Sunderland(uni)
Posted:
I guess It would be based on a technical level. Yes it would be extremly difficult to asses especially if there were multiple performers doing an ever changing set routine. However it IS possible. (It's a bit harsh getting sarcastic at the newbie by the way. It was only a suggestion.)
Obviously the company would be run by spinners or there would be no way of telling how good anyone was unless oyu understood the sport.
There would be seperate catagories for group performers as opposed to single ones different catagories for different types (poi staff etc) and there would be levels of beginner intermediate and advanced.
I'm not talking about writing a list of people who claim to be professionals and chucking them all together and just claiming one is better than another. I'm talking about an well run company. jeez...
I don't know why you would have to be judged at all maybe once when you join the company or something...
*sigh* I'm not gonna debate this actually
I apologise for upsetting you with the suggestion that a spinners aptitude can be judged. I have only just started spinning I know nothing about the higher levels of technicality and am unqualified to claim that somone who has been doing poi for years is better than anyone else who has been doing poi for years. So sorry and I withdraw my idea of a buisness because evidently it's an impractical idea at this point of time.
EDITED_BY: Aeori (1161220492)
Written by: _Y_
How can one possibly determine aptitude level?
I guess It would be based on a technical level. Yes it would be extremly difficult to asses especially if there were multiple performers doing an ever changing set routine. However it IS possible. (It's a bit harsh getting sarcastic at the newbie by the way. It was only a suggestion.)
Obviously the company would be run by spinners or there would be no way of telling how good anyone was unless oyu understood the sport.
There would be seperate catagories for group performers as opposed to single ones different catagories for different types (poi staff etc) and there would be levels of beginner intermediate and advanced.
I'm not talking about writing a list of people who claim to be professionals and chucking them all together and just claiming one is better than another. I'm talking about an well run company. jeez...
I don't know why you would have to be judged at all maybe once when you join the company or something...
*sigh* I'm not gonna debate this actually
I apologise for upsetting you with the suggestion that a spinners aptitude can be judged. I have only just started spinning I know nothing about the higher levels of technicality and am unqualified to claim that somone who has been doing poi for years is better than anyone else who has been doing poi for years. So sorry and I withdraw my idea of a buisness because evidently it's an impractical idea at this point of time.
EDITED_BY: Aeori (1161220492)
Fear my wrath and call me muffin for I am the muffin of doom!!
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
Post deleted by stout
Post deleted by stout
member
77 posts
Location: Dorking(home), Sunderland(uni)
77 posts
Location: Dorking(home), Sunderland(uni)
Posted:
Post deleted by Aeori
Post deleted by Aeori
Fear my wrath and call me muffin for I am the muffin of doom!!
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
1. FireTom, it was *not* a fire breathing accident that got the girl killed. In fact, if you read all of the articles, there was no fire eating or breathing involved at all. They lit some fuel on the stage. The fire wasn't fully out when the bartender attempted to do it again and the flame traced the fuel back and caused the glass fuel container to explode.
This person was not a professional anything on that stage, and so that situation does not pertain to this.
Let's see.
HoP attempted to form a group like that. We had about 5 people actually submit information to it. The main reason is that if people knew they could meet the criteria, they knew they were safe.
NAFAA bombed at it as well quite honestly.
Many of the US professional fire eaters have formed a group. There is discussion of creating a regulatory nfp however, that is more for working with fire marshalls and helping them regulate fire peeps. I doubt it will ever go though.
John Voldel also tried a grassroots version.
Now...to the statement that fire arts are relatively new performance art..nuh-uh. That plea for ignorance will never be accepted. Not when history provides photos dating back to the turn of the century of professional fire eaters, and professional polynesian fire dancers since the 50's.
Not to mention that HoP has been in exsistance for the better part of a decade and at that time, it was only professionals that were on it.
People have been saying "This is a new art form." for the past decade. No it's not.
And it is not an excuse to be an undercutting, underbidding butthole.
My dear friend The Great Nippulini (now retired) has a fabulous phrase for people who perform for free, for beer or for less than everyone else on purpose and primarily...
"There is a special place in hell for people like that."
(BTW..free for a worthy charity is good, and able to be written off..once in awhile!!!)
It's a touchy topic for me. Can ya tell?
1. FireTom, it was *not* a fire breathing accident that got the girl killed. In fact, if you read all of the articles, there was no fire eating or breathing involved at all. They lit some fuel on the stage. The fire wasn't fully out when the bartender attempted to do it again and the flame traced the fuel back and caused the glass fuel container to explode.
This person was not a professional anything on that stage, and so that situation does not pertain to this.
Let's see.
HoP attempted to form a group like that. We had about 5 people actually submit information to it. The main reason is that if people knew they could meet the criteria, they knew they were safe.
NAFAA bombed at it as well quite honestly.
Many of the US professional fire eaters have formed a group. There is discussion of creating a regulatory nfp however, that is more for working with fire marshalls and helping them regulate fire peeps. I doubt it will ever go though.
John Voldel also tried a grassroots version.
Now...to the statement that fire arts are relatively new performance art..nuh-uh. That plea for ignorance will never be accepted. Not when history provides photos dating back to the turn of the century of professional fire eaters, and professional polynesian fire dancers since the 50's.
Not to mention that HoP has been in exsistance for the better part of a decade and at that time, it was only professionals that were on it.
People have been saying "This is a new art form." for the past decade. No it's not.
And it is not an excuse to be an undercutting, underbidding butthole.
My dear friend The Great Nippulini (now retired) has a fabulous phrase for people who perform for free, for beer or for less than everyone else on purpose and primarily...
"There is a special place in hell for people like that."
(BTW..free for a worthy charity is good, and able to be written off..once in awhile!!!)
It's a touchy topic for me. Can ya tell?
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Especially not if dealing with firespinners. The diversity of this group ranges from the last scumbag to phd's... no offence in any direction 
Pele, thanks for this.
Times online, emm news explorer
Now before you call me "obnoxious" - hang on a second: The reason I post the links is, that in the minds of the public it remains a "fire-breathing" accident. Public memory is very bad, when it comes to details and US telling THEM "no it wasn't a fire-breating show, but some whacko liting a bottle of paraffin" doesn't make that much of a difference. (get my point?)
And (5 years back or so) inquiring for taking stills (spinning) in Manhattan would have been possible, but only in the presence of a "fire prevention officer" (I guess for some 200+ bucks) and "additional measures" which cost a heck more (in New York, where everything is made from concrete anyways - ya I know not literally). Also I experienced both: efforts to get paid gigs at german festivals were met with "For free admission only" (on my own fuel) or plain "Nope, spinners come anyways, we do not have to pay for them."
On the other hand, the troupe I was in - one of THE most disorganised and confused groups I have come across so far - was able to get one of THE highest paid gigs I ever had.
You will NEVER EVER be able to keep ppl from spinning at raves (for free)...
We either form a union ourselves, or we will face repression from authorities/ gov't sooner or later - possibly a ban. In a society that calls for "security and safety" more and more, this seems inevitable to me.
Written by: solarbear
No trade association or union can represent all of the people all of the time and there will always be an element of "just who do they think they are, telling us what to do".
Especially not if dealing with firespinners. The diversity of this group ranges from the last scumbag to phd's... no offence in any direction Pele, thanks for this.
Times online, emm news explorer
Now before you call me "obnoxious" - hang on a second: The reason I post the links is, that in the minds of the public it remains a "fire-breathing" accident. Public memory is very bad, when it comes to details and US telling THEM "no it wasn't a fire-breating show, but some whacko liting a bottle of paraffin" doesn't make that much of a difference. (get my point?)
And (5 years back or so) inquiring for taking stills (spinning) in Manhattan would have been possible, but only in the presence of a "fire prevention officer" (I guess for some 200+ bucks) and "additional measures" which cost a heck more (in New York, where everything is made from concrete anyways - ya I know not literally). Also I experienced both: efforts to get paid gigs at german festivals were met with "For free admission only" (on my own fuel) or plain "Nope, spinners come anyways, we do not have to pay for them."
On the other hand, the troupe I was in - one of THE most disorganised and confused groups I have come across so far - was able to get one of THE highest paid gigs I ever had.
You will NEVER EVER be able to keep ppl from spinning at raves (for free)...
We either form a union ourselves, or we will face repression from authorities/ gov't sooner or later - possibly a ban. In a society that calls for "security and safety" more and more, this seems inevitable to me.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
Precision instrument of speed and aromatics
240 posts
Location: Vienna
240 posts
Location: Vienna
Posted:
Its not that its a question of being better or not better technically. I know people who have been spinning for six months who are better than people who have been spinning (and earning money from it) for years. I'm certainly not suggesting that you can't say one is better than another technically. The issue, as I see it, is that a good show is about so much more than playing technical stuff.
Example:
the Rubberheart Duo are far technically superior to a group like FlameOz, but if I was a promoter I would probably choose the Austrialians because their routines are tighter, the energy higher and the costumes shinier, and often that is what a promoter wants. (no disrespect meant to either group btw)
I don't know who would rank higher on the list.
A technical based system of judging people is definately feasible, but this brings us into the territory of sports juggling. This is an area of juggling which arguably has its place, but one look at shows from people like Thomas Deitz proves that being the most technically proficient juggler in the world doesn't neccesarily translate into being able to give a great (or even good) show.
Written by: Aeori
I apologise for upsetting you with the suggestion that a spinners aptitude can be judged. I have only just started spinning I know nothing about the higher levels of technicality and am unqualified to claim that somone who has been doing poi for years is better than anyone else who has been doing poi for years.
Its not that its a question of being better or not better technically. I know people who have been spinning for six months who are better than people who have been spinning (and earning money from it) for years. I'm certainly not suggesting that you can't say one is better than another technically. The issue, as I see it, is that a good show is about so much more than playing technical stuff.
Example:
the Rubberheart Duo are far technically superior to a group like FlameOz, but if I was a promoter I would probably choose the Austrialians because their routines are tighter, the energy higher and the costumes shinier, and often that is what a promoter wants. (no disrespect meant to either group btw)
I don't know who would rank higher on the list.
A technical based system of judging people is definately feasible, but this brings us into the territory of sports juggling. This is an area of juggling which arguably has its place, but one look at shows from people like Thomas Deitz proves that being the most technically proficient juggler in the world doesn't neccesarily translate into being able to give a great (or even good) show.
Not a spinner!
SILVER Member
Hitman
985 posts
Location: Gloucester England
Hitman
985 posts
Location: Gloucester England
Posted:
I think most people who are here at the moment seem to be forgeting the reason we started doing poi, staff, juggling, devil sticks or anything like that its because we enjoy it who are we to say u cant get your toys out because we said so. People just want to have fun. Whats gotten into you people it dosnt matter whats going on or the morals behind it it should be oh people can spin poi or whatever whereever and when ever they like thats half the beauty behind it. I find it quite said that people are trying to discorge people from spinning at events.
Personaly i have only eva span for free because i enjoy it and every does i have span at concerts and in festivals and stuff but not for attention but because i wanted to.
Its quite sad that people have to start moaning bout people taking up a growing art form that people enjoy and is a hobby to them. That is why people spin at gigs and fests and so on for free.
Can anyone of you imagine being at a festival for 5 or 6 days and not spinning once i didnt think so.
This wasnt ment to be a dig sorry
I think most people who are here at the moment seem to be forgeting the reason we started doing poi, staff, juggling, devil sticks or anything like that its because we enjoy it who are we to say u cant get your toys out because we said so. People just want to have fun. Whats gotten into you people it dosnt matter whats going on or the morals behind it it should be oh people can spin poi or whatever whereever and when ever they like thats half the beauty behind it. I find it quite said that people are trying to discorge people from spinning at events.
Personaly i have only eva span for free because i enjoy it and every does i have span at concerts and in festivals and stuff but not for attention but because i wanted to.
Its quite sad that people have to start moaning bout people taking up a growing art form that people enjoy and is a hobby to them. That is why people spin at gigs and fests and so on for free.
Can anyone of you imagine being at a festival for 5 or 6 days and not spinning once i didnt think so.
This wasnt ment to be a dig sorry
he he i am mike the amazing gloscircus person who is mike.
Officaly an exception to the Poi Boys are Girls Thing
GOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland
Posted:
Thats why most people start there jobs At least the lucky ones.
Written by: MikefromGlos
I think most people who are here at the moment seem to be forgeting the reason we started doing poi, staff, juggling, devil sticks or anything like that its because we enjoy it who are we to say u cant get your toys out because we said so. People just want to have fun.
Thats why most people start there jobs
At least the lucky ones. Love is the law.
BRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Posted:
Mike - it's not a matter of spinning at festivals, concerts etc.
It's about people doing gigs (corporate, nightclub, private functions and festival shows) for free/entrance/drinks - when there are people doing this, or trying to do this, for their main source of income.
It's got nothing to do with spinning for fun - if people didn't enjoy it, they wouldn't do it - I don't know any performers who dislike spinning.
There are morals behind taking paid work away from professionals just so you can get into a festival for free...
Mike - it's not a matter of spinning at festivals, concerts etc.
It's about people doing gigs (corporate, nightclub, private functions and festival shows) for free/entrance/drinks - when there are people doing this, or trying to do this, for their main source of income.
It's got nothing to do with spinning for fun - if people didn't enjoy it, they wouldn't do it - I don't know any performers who dislike spinning.
There are morals behind taking paid work away from professionals just so you can get into a festival for free...
Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude
Precision instrument of speed and aromatics
240 posts
Location: Vienna
240 posts
Location: Vienna
Posted:
I don't think anyone is suggesting that no one should be allowed to BE AT a festival and spin (or at least I'm not). Its a question of whether people should perform ON STAGE (or a stage-like location) without charging, when other people are trying to make a living from it.
But you are exactly right, people spin for free because they enjoy it, and so they should. Its why we all got into it. We can't stop people from spinning because they love it, and we shouldn't try. Professionals should focus their energy on putting together a show which has some stubstance and that people are willing to pay for:
I don't think anyone is suggesting that no one should be allowed to BE AT a festival and spin (or at least I'm not). Its a question of whether people should perform ON STAGE (or a stage-like location) without charging, when other people are trying to make a living from it.
But you are exactly right, people spin for free because they enjoy it, and so they should. Its why we all got into it. We can't stop people from spinning because they love it, and we shouldn't try. Professionals should focus their energy on putting together a show which has some stubstance and that people are willing to pay for:
Written by: NYC
If you are trying to sell a product which others will happily produce for free, and consumers can't tell the difference, then your product doesn't deserve to sell.
Not a spinner!
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
You got a good and valid point here, Mike. If the impression was left that I would want to discourage ppl from spinning at raves no, never... At festivals I most likely could not keep my fingers off my toys myself - paid or not.
Maybe there is a bit of difference between spinning at the rear end of the event (for free) or right next to the main floor "trying" to show off...
And a union that would walk around BOOM-festival and discouraging people who spin (for free) is not what this is about. My apologies if this impression was left with you.
But you also can't deny that there are spinners out there who do it just for that "3 minutes of fame"... that some of those are careless about safety and therefore cause accidents that disrepute the entire art...
You got a good and valid point here, Mike. If the impression was left that I would want to discourage ppl from spinning at raves
no, never... At festivals I most likely could not keep my fingers off my toys myself - paid or not. Maybe there is a bit of difference between spinning at the rear end of the event (for free) or right next to the main floor "trying" to show off...
And a union that would walk around BOOM-festival and discouraging people who spin (for free) is not what this is about. My apologies if this impression was left with you.
But you also can't deny that there are spinners out there who do it just for that "3 minutes of fame"... that some of those are careless about safety and therefore cause accidents that disrepute the entire art...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland
Posted:
Sometimes these are just people who are new to it and dont know any better. Spinning is unusual in that it starts out as a hobby but heads towards performance for alot of people. People making mistakes because of a lack of knowledge and experience will learn. And should be allowed to do so without feeling like theres a bunch of people out there talking about unions and other equally rediculous ideas.
I have a job, I also do gigs. I dont do gigs for free. Yet, I still get stick from people who think I should not perform at all because I dont need the money. So should I perform for free? Of course not. I do however work with a group of fulltime perfomers and quite gladly give them preference on paid gigs. Its the middle of the road. I dont want to go pro because I like it the way it is.
Sometimes these are just people who are new to it and dont know any better. Spinning is unusual in that it starts out as a hobby but heads towards performance for alot of people. People making mistakes because of a lack of knowledge and experience will learn. And should be allowed to do so without feeling like theres a bunch of people out there talking about unions and other equally rediculous ideas.
I have a job, I also do gigs. I dont do gigs for free. Yet, I still get stick from people who think I should not perform at all because I dont need the money. So should I perform for free? Of course not. I do however work with a group of fulltime perfomers and quite gladly give them preference on paid gigs. Its the middle of the road. I dont want to go pro because I like it the way it is.
Love is the law.
GOLD Member
organic creation
246 posts
Location: earth, Wales (UK)
organic creation
246 posts
Location: earth, Wales (UK)
Posted:
just last night i got a request from an events promoter to do fire spinning gig in cardiff on halloween night. this would be my first paid gig as i have only been spinning 7 months. this made me realise that there are other points to consider when decideing to do a performance. i have been offered free drinks, free admission and fuel cost covered plus some cash.
location - outside, not on a stage but by the entrance to attract people to come in. the more people that pay to get in the more we get paid.
availability of gigs in your area - me and my friends who like to spin are usually looking for a place to spin fire which at some times can be difficult. so for someone to give us a place to spin and to get paid even in drinks or a small amount is a big step forward from what i (we) have been doing.
opportunity for future paid gigs - i have been told by the promoter that this place in cardiff (que pasa) will be looking for future fire spinners if all goes well this time. so my point would be if your doing the 1st gig for close to nothing but you have an opportunity for getting paid in the future it sometimes would be worth it to open new doors.
my desicion now will come down to there insurance coverage and going to see the location before hand.
just last night i got a request from an events promoter to do fire spinning gig in cardiff on halloween night. this would be my first paid gig as i have only been spinning 7 months. this made me realise that there are other points to consider when decideing to do a performance. i have been offered free drinks, free admission and fuel cost covered plus some cash.
location - outside, not on a stage but by the entrance to attract people to come in. the more people that pay to get in the more we get paid.
availability of gigs in your area - me and my friends who like to spin are usually looking for a place to spin fire which at some times can be difficult. so for someone to give us a place to spin and to get paid even in drinks or a small amount is a big step forward from what i (we) have been doing.
opportunity for future paid gigs - i have been told by the promoter that this place in cardiff (que pasa) will be looking for future fire spinners if all goes well this time. so my point would be if your doing the 1st gig for close to nothing but you have an opportunity for getting paid in the future it sometimes would be worth it to open new doors.
my desicion now will come down to there insurance coverage and going to see the location before hand.
BRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Posted:
Y'see - the issue I have with this is - you can be damn sure the promoters are getting paid for it.
I mean, it's Halloween night - they're probably charging more than they normally would too (New Years Eve for example, most people at least double their rates)
But I do see your point - one free gig could lead to free gigs. Or, they might see you're happy to work for free and never really offer you paid work, as they then know there are spinners out there willing to work for drinks (which incidentally looks very un-professional anyway).
Y'see - the issue I have with this is - you can be damn sure the promoters are getting paid for it.
I mean, it's Halloween night - they're probably charging more than they normally would too (New Years Eve for example, most people at least double their rates)
But I do see your point - one free gig could lead to free gigs. Or, they might see you're happy to work for free and never really offer you paid work, as they then know there are spinners out there willing to work for drinks (which incidentally looks very un-professional anyway).
Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude
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