Forums > Social Discussion > What is being poor?
Login/Join to ParticipateBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
As a lot of you know I was living in Romania for 6 months. And as fewer of you know, I have now returned to Romania for 2 weeks to catch up with all my friends while I am still here.
During my first stay here, I was aware that they were poor, but I never really thoguht about it in great detail. To me my friends were still welcoming and never made me feel like the "rich foreigner" that I undoubtably was to them.
But on the maxi taxi returning to my favourite Romanian rural town I got thinking. I don't know what triggered it, maybe it was seeing the rest of Europe and realising just how much better off they are there (notably, I never visited any non-touristy country towns, but even comparing capital cities and towns I have seen from train/bus windows), but I startd wondering what actually defines "poor".
I know that Romania is not like Africa, or South East Asia etc, but it is still classified as "poor". I was suprised at how many people were surprised that I had lived in a "3rd world country", which Romania isn't, but people still saw it that way.
So what is "poor"?
Is it a lack of disposable income? After all, a disposable income seems to be one of the characterising aspects of the "more fortunate countries". But just because you don't have a disposable income, doesnt mean you go hungry.
I observed last time I was in Romania, that while disposable incomes are not the normal, they don't go hungry and there is pleanty of food. So since they are fed, clothed and have roofs over heir heads (with the exception of the beggar situation you cant escape if you go to Bucharst); are they poor? Even though they aren't free to enjoy a "disposable income"?
Last night I got talking to the friend I am living with in Romania. She remembers her first years of life under the dictatorship, and she said that she's not sure they are even better off. During the time of the dictator, the country had an economy and the people actually had a disposable income. But they had no food. Now, they have plenty of food, but not a dispoable income. Before the revolution they weren't free, and no-one was pretending otherwise. But now, they still aren't free, but everyone pretends otherwise. And of course, now, post-communism, the distribution of wealth is just a joke, where as before, everyone was poor. Not to mention corruption, which is a diffeent topic altogether.
So naturally, her comments made me wonder even more.
Is being poor the in-ability to make decisions about how to use your own money?
or is being poor not having food on your table or clothes on your back?
Or is it something else?
As a lot of you know I was living in Romania for 6 months. And as fewer of you know, I have now returned to Romania for 2 weeks to catch up with all my friends while I am still here.
During my first stay here, I was aware that they were poor, but I never really thoguht about it in great detail. To me my friends were still welcoming and never made me feel like the "rich foreigner" that I undoubtably was to them.
But on the maxi taxi returning to my favourite Romanian rural town I got thinking. I don't know what triggered it, maybe it was seeing the rest of Europe and realising just how much better off they are there (notably, I never visited any non-touristy country towns, but even comparing capital cities and towns I have seen from train/bus windows), but I startd wondering what actually defines "poor".
I know that Romania is not like Africa, or South East Asia etc, but it is still classified as "poor". I was suprised at how many people were surprised that I had lived in a "3rd world country", which Romania isn't, but people still saw it that way.
So what is "poor"?
Is it a lack of disposable income? After all, a disposable income seems to be one of the characterising aspects of the "more fortunate countries". But just because you don't have a disposable income, doesnt mean you go hungry.
I observed last time I was in Romania, that while disposable incomes are not the normal, they don't go hungry and there is pleanty of food. So since they are fed, clothed and have roofs over heir heads (with the exception of the beggar situation you cant escape if you go to Bucharst); are they poor? Even though they aren't free to enjoy a "disposable income"?
Last night I got talking to the friend I am living with in Romania. She remembers her first years of life under the dictatorship, and she said that she's not sure they are even better off. During the time of the dictator, the country had an economy and the people actually had a disposable income. But they had no food. Now, they have plenty of food, but not a dispoable income. Before the revolution they weren't free, and no-one was pretending otherwise. But now, they still aren't free, but everyone pretends otherwise. And of course, now, post-communism, the distribution of wealth is just a joke, where as before, everyone was poor. Not to mention corruption, which is a diffeent topic altogether.
So naturally, her comments made me wonder even more.
Is being poor the in-ability to make decisions about how to use your own money?
or is being poor not having food on your table or clothes on your back?
Or is it something else?
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
Part of my family's from a German village in what is now Romania, and my aunt organises collections of clothes and donations for children there. I would consider Romania poor, though I suppose "poor" is always "has less than me" to most people - there are of course definitions like the "minimum of existence" in all countries, but they're so different. A rich person would call me poor, but for third world standards I'm rich.
With the minimum an African family can survive on, a Western family would moan about where the cable tv has gone. A colour tv is considered minimum standard in Germany, even if you're on social security, or if you're indebted and people come to take your things away, you have the right to have a tv.
It's hard for us to say what poverty is because most of us haven't experienced it. Poor people here often still have enough to afford a mobile phone (though to be fair, a lot of people would rather neglect their children's nutrition than go without a mobile...). Here, poor people are concentrated in the cities, with easy access to most things they need, whereas in Romania and even more in poorer countries there are so many rural areas with small places that won't see much support from anywhere, and won't make it on the news either because Europeans and Americans only know the name of the capital, if that.
It would be nice to just be able to say something smart like "everyone who's loved is rich", or "if you've got all the money in the world but are a bad person, you're poor", but it just doesn't work that way in real life
Part of my family's from a German village in what is now Romania, and my aunt organises collections of clothes and donations for children there. I would consider Romania poor, though I suppose "poor" is always "has less than me" to most people - there are of course definitions like the "minimum of existence" in all countries, but they're so different. A rich person would call me poor, but for third world standards I'm rich.
With the minimum an African family can survive on, a Western family would moan about where the cable tv has gone. A colour tv is considered minimum standard in Germany, even if you're on social security, or if you're indebted and people come to take your things away, you have the right to have a tv.
It's hard for us to say what poverty is because most of us haven't experienced it. Poor people here often still have enough to afford a mobile phone (though to be fair, a lot of people would rather neglect their children's nutrition than go without a mobile...). Here, poor people are concentrated in the cities, with easy access to most things they need, whereas in Romania and even more in poorer countries there are so many rural areas with small places that won't see much support from anywhere, and won't make it on the news either because Europeans and Americans only know the name of the capital, if that.
It would be nice to just be able to say something smart like "everyone who's loved is rich", or "if you've got all the money in the world but are a bad person, you're poor", but it just doesn't work that way in real life
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
Sometimes sword wofter
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh
199 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
Yeah apparently i'm living below the poverty line because I have no TV and no DVD player/video player. Sad really
By the way birgit does Zauberdachs mean "super badger" in German?
Yeah apparently i'm living below the poverty line because I have no TV and no DVD player/video player. Sad really
By the way birgit does Zauberdachs mean "super badger" in German?
IMPORTANT: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of a sane person.
"just get the f**k on with it and make me the anti-christ already!"
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
Magic Badger
But you already know that now 
(forgot to do theging earlier Mr. my-temporary-God... was almost fallen asleep, and now I could sleep the cold air outside woke me up again 
Magic Badger
But you already know that now (forgot to do the
ging earlier Mr. my-temporary-God... was almost fallen asleep, and now I could sleep the cold air outside woke me up again "vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
I had another talk withmy friend last night and I realised that no matter how hard I try: I will NEVER understand.
As an Australian, I am just so far removed.
I had another talk withmy friend last night and I realised that no matter how hard I try: I will NEVER understand.
As an Australian, I am just so far removed.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
did you know there are 2.8 million people living in poverty in Australia Rouge Dragon? or that 50% of australians own 94% of Australias wealth?
also i heard there are two types of poverty.
-Absolute poverty is where the person/people are failing to meet basic needs of food, clothing and shelter
-Relative poverty is where the person/people have a lower income relative to everybody else in the society.
bwt, when you hear about the employment rate in Australia going sown its usually total B*****it. To be considered employed you have to do ONE HOUR of paid work a week, so people can be 'employed' but still live in absolute poverty.
did you know there are 2.8 million people living in poverty in Australia Rouge Dragon? or that 50% of australians own 94% of Australias wealth?
also i heard there are two types of poverty.
-Absolute poverty is where the person/people are failing to meet basic needs of food, clothing and shelter
-Relative poverty is where the person/people have a lower income relative to everybody else in the society.
bwt, when you hear about the employment rate in Australia going sown its usually total B*****it. To be considered employed you have to do ONE HOUR of paid work a week, so people can be 'employed' but still live in absolute poverty.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
Dreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
Posted:
Yeah, its weird, cause i spent several months living in uruguay... which is considered third world, apparently, and where american students show up from major universities to do "alternative spring break" projects, like build playgrounds in poor neighborhoods in montevideo.
It was that last bit that made me realize everyone thought they were poor here. And I certainly walked thru poor neighborhoods (right next to rich ones, I should think that much odd as an american)- poor neighboorhoods meaning no electricity and very small houses which wern't entirely sealed off from the admittedly mild weather. And there were horses tied nearby to graze in some cases, and other things one wouldn't normally think of as normal. But people had plenty of food, and clothing and shoes in good condition. Most people had animals as well, like dogs, which looked ok, altho were never spayed neutered :/ Some (many even) poor people in the US can't afford as much as these people had, altho they're much more likely to have, say, electricity! Its hard to judge what it actually is that makes someone poor at any given time I think.
i'm too tired to think any more right now....
Yeah, its weird, cause i spent several months living in uruguay... which is considered third world, apparently, and where american students show up from major universities to do "alternative spring break" projects, like build playgrounds in poor neighborhoods in montevideo.
It was that last bit that made me realize everyone thought they were poor here. And I certainly walked thru poor neighborhoods (right next to rich ones, I should think that much odd as an american)- poor neighboorhoods meaning no electricity and very small houses which wern't entirely sealed off from the admittedly mild weather. And there were horses tied nearby to graze in some cases, and other things one wouldn't normally think of as normal. But people had plenty of food, and clothing and shoes in good condition. Most people had animals as well, like dogs, which looked ok, altho were never spayed neutered :/ Some (many even) poor people in the US can't afford as much as these people had, altho they're much more likely to have, say, electricity! Its hard to judge what it actually is that makes someone poor at any given time I think.
i'm too tired to think any more right now....
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
percentage of people owning romania's wealth is far, far worse than australia. Romanian social security is also far, far worse than Australia. The 2.8 milllion people in Australia who live in poverty probably live like 80% of Romania's population.
Written by: Mr Majestik
did you know there are 2.8 million people living in poverty in Australia Rouge Dragon? or that 50% of australians own 94% of Australias wealth?
percentage of people owning romania's wealth is far, far worse than australia. Romanian social security is also far, far worse than Australia. The 2.8 milllion people in Australia who live in poverty probably live like 80% of Romania's population.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
SILVER Member
with added berries
1,365 posts
Location: Manchester, England (UK)
with added berries
1,365 posts
Location: Manchester, England (UK)
Posted:
From my time traveling in Kenya, I learnt a few things about this subject. For instance, it's very difficult to judge on this subject as you can only really compare things to your own culture. In Western culture, we seem to forget that actually, the developed world is unusual and not the normal way to live. The majority of the world's population live in developing countries.
I stayed with an African family for a while, and everything is judged differently. The mains electricity is turned off/runs out every night about 8, the black and white Tv in the corner would slowly fade. Everyone there uses mobile phones, as trying to get a comprehensive telephone network across sparsly populated Africa would be difficult and expensive. Kumunjoe (Joe) who I stayed with, got in with the local barman so he could use the bar to charge up his phone for a very small fee. Everything is a lot cheaper there, including food, so although wages are low, so is the price of food. The house we camped by was full of decorative lace and intressting objects, the family were relativly rich for Africans, they had a farm that was doing well, although in Western terms they would be poor.
I didn't experience the poverty side of Africa quite as much, although we drove though shanty towns and saw beggars and prostitutes on the streets of Nairobi. I think one of the things that touched me the most was the children, one little boy spent part of the day with us as his parents couldn't afford to send him to school. All the school kids were so enthusiastic and grateful to learn, and were very aspirational. Some of them had obvious injuries/defects, that would recieve treatment in richer countries.
Sorry, I realise I've gone slightly off topic with all this reminiscing but the point I would really like to make is...
Although in monetry terms developing countries are poorer than Developed countries, thier culture and lifestyles are far, far richer than any Western country in my opinion.
From my time traveling in Kenya, I learnt a few things about this subject. For instance, it's very difficult to judge on this subject as you can only really compare things to your own culture. In Western culture, we seem to forget that actually, the developed world is unusual and not the normal way to live. The majority of the world's population live in developing countries.
I stayed with an African family for a while, and everything is judged differently. The mains electricity is turned off/runs out every night about 8, the black and white Tv in the corner would slowly fade. Everyone there uses mobile phones, as trying to get a comprehensive telephone network across sparsly populated Africa would be difficult and expensive. Kumunjoe (Joe) who I stayed with, got in with the local barman so he could use the bar to charge up his phone for a very small fee. Everything is a lot cheaper there, including food, so although wages are low, so is the price of food. The house we camped by was full of decorative lace and intressting objects, the family were relativly rich for Africans, they had a farm that was doing well, although in Western terms they would be poor.
I didn't experience the poverty side of Africa quite as much, although we drove though shanty towns and saw beggars and prostitutes on the streets of Nairobi. I think one of the things that touched me the most was the children, one little boy spent part of the day with us as his parents couldn't afford to send him to school. All the school kids were so enthusiastic and grateful to learn, and were very aspirational. Some of them had obvious injuries/defects, that would recieve treatment in richer countries.
Sorry, I realise I've gone slightly off topic with all this reminiscing but the point I would really like to make is...
Although in monetry terms developing countries are poorer than Developed countries, thier culture and lifestyles are far, far richer than any Western country in my opinion.
Live like there is no tomorrow,
dance like nobody is watching
and hula hoop like wiggling will save the world.
“What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.”
Ralph Waldo Emerson
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
I read an article a few weeks ago - it was about the waste of water in western civilisation. You know how they usually list how much we spend on loos, washing machines and baths compares to how little people in draught areas use.
Well. Usually, the western people jump in here and say "yeah, I save so much water by having showers instead of baths" etc...
Now this one listed how many litres of water we use to make a slice of bread and other everyday foods. You never think about it, but watering the fields, preparing ingredients for manufacturing the bread etc uses up more than 10 litres of water! I think this is another important bit to poverty - access to clean water.
Look how it affects Israel and Palestine - one river for two nations, and except for the holy places like Jerusalem, it's the West Bank of the River Jordan that's most fought about!
I read an article a few weeks ago - it was about the waste of water in western civilisation. You know how they usually list how much we spend on loos, washing machines and baths compares to how little people in draught areas use.
Well. Usually, the western people jump in here and say "yeah, I save so much water by having showers instead of baths" etc...
Now this one listed how many litres of water we use to make a slice of bread and other everyday foods. You never think about it, but watering the fields, preparing ingredients for manufacturing the bread etc uses up more than 10 litres of water! I think this is another important bit to poverty - access to clean water.
Look how it affects Israel and Palestine - one river for two nations, and except for the holy places like Jerusalem, it's the West Bank of the River Jordan that's most fought about!
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
Woman! Not gay Man!
332 posts
Location: Hull...ish
332 posts
Location: Hull...ish
Posted:
WOW I think youre all very lucky to be so well traveled, I've never been out of Europe
And looking at poverty in England I find it quite depressing that most people below the poverty line in this country choose to be there, other than the people living on the streets. For example all the people claiming benifits are supposedly in poverty but most of them hve chosen that and even some school kids espire to be"on the dole" and if this is all the britsh population can do then I think they should be sent to a really poor country to see how hard the people there work for the same amount as they get free because of our middle class, wealth based system.
My school sponsores a school in a place called Resangey (but not spelt like that) and we all make donations for it and any budget left over at the end of the year is sent to this school, I think thatif everyone made ust a small gture like this then would be closer to making poverty history
WOW I think youre all very lucky to be so well traveled, I've never been out of Europe
And looking at poverty in England I find it quite depressing that most people below the poverty line in this country choose to be there, other than the people living on the streets. For example all the people claiming benifits are supposedly in poverty but most of them hve chosen that and even some school kids espire to be"on the dole" and if this is all the britsh population can do then I think they should be sent to a really poor country to see how hard the people there work for the same amount as they get free because of our middle class, wealth based system.
My school sponsores a school in a place called Resangey (but not spelt like that) and we all make donations for it and any budget left over at the end of the year is sent to this school, I think thatif everyone made ust a small gture like this then would be closer to making poverty history
I AM NOT A GAY MAN!
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
hmmmm, i'm not sure that i agree with that.
some people are spongers and should be thrown in a bog hole, but EVERY SINGLE person i know claiming benefits genuinely needs them and would rather not have to.
although no one tested my friends to see if they're representative, so who knows?
maybe some kids you know do aspire to be n the dole. i think it's likely that when they start trying to live on £45 a week they will change their minds pretty sharpish. in this country, really i don't know how people manage on that little.
hmmmm, i'm not sure that i agree with that.
some people are spongers and should be thrown in a bog hole, but EVERY SINGLE person i know claiming benefits genuinely needs them and would rather not have to.
although no one tested my friends to see if they're representative, so who knows?
maybe some kids you know do aspire to be n the dole. i think it's likely that when they start trying to live on £45 a week they will change their minds pretty sharpish. in this country, really i don't know how people manage on that little.
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,638 posts
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
3,638 posts
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Posted:
TheGreatBJ: your 'choose to be there' comment!!!!!
I find that really disagreeable.
Of the 'poor' people I know in England, most were born without the same oppertunities as me (decent school, encouraging/educated parents etc...) or have social problems that render them unable to integrate and live and work in the way that would be considered normal. Many have situations thrust upon them that they can't predict or easily resolve.
Many are not educated in how to spend less, and make what you do have most productive. Sounds simple and logical but if you really don't understand principles such as saving and prioritising then you are stuck struggling for good. Lessons like these are instilled throughout your upbringing, and if they're missing (through no choice of your own) then life becomes very hard.
Having travlled a bit I have seen lots of rich and poor people all over the world. I think poverty is relative to your environment.
Rich = surplus. (money/food/electrical equipment/whatever)
Poor = insufficient (same as above)
Where you are influences which of the above factors are most important and which are most limiting.
TheGreatBJ: your 'choose to be there' comment!!!!!
I find that really disagreeable.
Of the 'poor' people I know in England, most were born without the same oppertunities as me (decent school, encouraging/educated parents etc...) or have social problems that render them unable to integrate and live and work in the way that would be considered normal. Many have situations thrust upon them that they can't predict or easily resolve.
Many are not educated in how to spend less, and make what you do have most productive. Sounds simple and logical but if you really don't understand principles such as saving and prioritising then you are stuck struggling for good. Lessons like these are instilled throughout your upbringing, and if they're missing (through no choice of your own) then life becomes very hard.
Having travlled a bit I have seen lots of rich and poor people all over the world. I think poverty is relative to your environment.
Rich = surplus. (money/food/electrical equipment/whatever)
Poor = insufficient (same as above)
Where you are influences which of the above factors are most important and which are most limiting.
Geologists do it in the dirt................ 
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
so now that i find this thread on page 10, does that mean that everyone has expressed their concerns and then forgotten about the problem?
people are so transient
so now that i find this thread on page 10, does that mean that everyone has expressed their concerns and then forgotten about the problem?
people are so transient
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
SILVER Member
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
Posted:
The problem with 'poverty' is that its used for different political groups and NGO's as a funding mechanism.
The definition of poverty which is commonly accepted is a person who earns less than half of the average national wage.
So in the UK, if you earn 11K a year or less you are classed as living in poverty! (and as I earn less than 5.5K I'm what is referred to as living in absolute poverty... am I bollox... I'm on the bloody internet aren't I?)
On the other hand, if you live in East Timor, and earn over 150 pounds a year (under 50p a day) you don't live in poverty.
While the relative cost of living in a country has to be taken into account (11K a year would mean you'd be in the top few % of earnings in East Timor), the relative standards we currently use completely fail to take into account the wealth (and standard of living) of the nation as a whole.
Hence someone who earns enough money to get by (though not buy a house and a BMW) in the West is deemed to live in poverty, whereas someone who earns the average wage in a country where there is mass starvation and regular epidemics of treatable diseases does not live in poverty.
Equally, the son of a baron, lord or corporate CEO who decides that they don't need a job because they can live off their family fortune will freaquently pop up in poverty figures. They earn nothing so they are classed as living in poverty, despite the fact that they living in luxury.
On a much broader note, the competitive individualism fostered by the neo-liberal capitalist system breeds inequality. We live in a world where economic determinism is designed to perpetuate the suffering of many to appease the greed of the few, predicated on the desire of the middle classes to attain the material benefits of those above them in our social hierarchy. Without a massive redistribution of financial and natural resources, allied with a fundamental changes to the value led, profit driven market system this will sadly continue to be our world.
The problem with 'poverty' is that its used for different political groups and NGO's as a funding mechanism.
The definition of poverty which is commonly accepted is a person who earns less than half of the average national wage.
So in the UK, if you earn 11K a year or less you are classed as living in poverty! (and as I earn less than 5.5K I'm what is referred to as living in absolute poverty... am I bollox... I'm on the bloody internet aren't I?)
On the other hand, if you live in East Timor, and earn over 150 pounds a year (under 50p a day) you don't live in poverty.
While the relative cost of living in a country has to be taken into account (11K a year would mean you'd be in the top few % of earnings in East Timor), the relative standards we currently use completely fail to take into account the wealth (and standard of living) of the nation as a whole.
Hence someone who earns enough money to get by (though not buy a house and a BMW) in the West is deemed to live in poverty, whereas someone who earns the average wage in a country where there is mass starvation and regular epidemics of treatable diseases does not live in poverty.
Equally, the son of a baron, lord or corporate CEO who decides that they don't need a job because they can live off their family fortune will freaquently pop up in poverty figures. They earn nothing so they are classed as living in poverty, despite the fact that they living in luxury.
On a much broader note, the competitive individualism fostered by the neo-liberal capitalist system breeds inequality. We live in a world where economic determinism is designed to perpetuate the suffering of many to appease the greed of the few, predicated on the desire of the middle classes to attain the material benefits of those above them in our social hierarchy. Without a massive redistribution of financial and natural resources, allied with a fundamental changes to the value led, profit driven market system this will sadly continue to be our world.
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
The problem with poverty is that many people don't want to hear about it... Here in India an unimagniable number of people would be considered "poor" - they are living far under the average poverty line - not owning more than what they wear.
Hence this society shelters one of the richest men alive...
This is not a new phenomenon - it's as old as mankind
But in the meantime, the "ruling class" has learned from a million uprising and revolutions in the past - to weave a system, so abstract and complex that we can't find the "ultimate evil" anymore and even in the end may find out, that it's ourselves.
As an example: With every cent in pension funds, the average joe is financing big corporate business... With every Quiksilver-shirt you buy, every Adidas-shoe you wear, you take part in the game... with every toke you suck to escape from everydays misery you might perpetuate the system for another day...
Tell me - is there a way out of this? What to do? Where to start?
You lead - I'll follow
The problem with poverty is that many people don't want to hear about it... Here in India an unimagniable number of people would be considered "poor" - they are living far under the average poverty line - not owning more than what they wear.
Hence this society shelters one of the richest men alive...
This is not a new phenomenon - it's as old as mankind
But in the meantime, the "ruling class" has learned from a million uprising and revolutions in the past - to weave a system, so abstract and complex that we can't find the "ultimate evil" anymore and even in the end may find out, that it's ourselves.
As an example: With every cent in pension funds, the average joe is financing big corporate business... With every Quiksilver-shirt you buy, every Adidas-shoe you wear, you take part in the game... with every toke you suck to escape from everydays misery you might perpetuate the system for another day...
Tell me - is there a way out of this? What to do? Where to start?
You lead - I'll follow
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
leading and follow, wouldnt that add to the problem tom?
leading and follow, wouldnt that add to the problem tom?
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
I think Fluffy had most of my thoughts neatly put! Thanks!
but I guess I would include some thoughts elaborating on distinctions in the nature of poverty. A few that come to mind:
1) there is poverty of the resources needed for survival and comfort ( which many have already discussed )
2) poverty of opportunity, meaning your basic need may be met, but you may not have the opportunity to pursue your dreams, grow, or realize your fullest potential both as an individual and in society. This covers things like educational opportunities, travel opporunities, exposure to ideas and concepts, even may encompass things like stability- are you in a place where the surrounding environment is stable enough to explore possibilities like this- If you are in a war torn area, or struggling to just make ends meet and using all your energy there, you obviously would have less ability to take advantage of any opportunities present.
3) There is also poverty of Spirit. Meaning you may or may not have your basic needs met, but your spirit is lacking its sustanance. This may mean different things for different people. Maybe you do not have a sense of meaning in your life,a sense of purpose or peace, a feeling of being a valued supported part of a community-- or for some, lack even a sense of self, sense of place. Many so called rich countires still suffer this kind of poverty.
If you can meet all three, you are certainly rich! If you can only feed your spirit, well, even if you get really thin you will probably feel really rich. If you have opportunity for growth and exploration along with the necessary resources for survival and comfort, and a sense of spiritual/community ,support and balance-- well, anything is possible! Fullest development of your potential.
Poverty activists should be considering ways of influencing all these, and more. Many are! There are many ways to nurture life.
smiles,
Andrea
" i set out to beg my food, but instead, found myself gathering violets in the fields of spring..."
( famous Japanese poet, whose name i forget right now! A monk...)
I think Fluffy had most of my thoughts neatly put! Thanks!
but I guess I would include some thoughts elaborating on distinctions in the nature of poverty. A few that come to mind:
1) there is poverty of the resources needed for survival and comfort ( which many have already discussed )
2) poverty of opportunity, meaning your basic need may be met, but you may not have the opportunity to pursue your dreams, grow, or realize your fullest potential both as an individual and in society. This covers things like educational opportunities, travel opporunities, exposure to ideas and concepts, even may encompass things like stability- are you in a place where the surrounding environment is stable enough to explore possibilities like this- If you are in a war torn area, or struggling to just make ends meet and using all your energy there, you obviously would have less ability to take advantage of any opportunities present.
3) There is also poverty of Spirit. Meaning you may or may not have your basic needs met, but your spirit is lacking its sustanance. This may mean different things for different people. Maybe you do not have a sense of meaning in your life,a sense of purpose or peace, a feeling of being a valued supported part of a community-- or for some, lack even a sense of self, sense of place. Many so called rich countires still suffer this kind of poverty.
If you can meet all three, you are certainly rich! If you can only feed your spirit, well, even if you get really thin you will probably feel really rich. If you have opportunity for growth and exploration along with the necessary resources for survival and comfort, and a sense of spiritual/community ,support and balance-- well, anything is possible! Fullest development of your potential.
Poverty activists should be considering ways of influencing all these, and more. Many are! There are many ways to nurture life.
smiles,
Andrea
" i set out to beg my food, but instead, found myself gathering violets in the fields of spring..."
( famous Japanese poet, whose name i forget right now! A monk...)
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
thats a nice three way discription pity there are so many people with one or more of them
thats a nice three way discription
pity there are so many people with one or more of them "but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
@MM: sure does - unless the "leader" would contain jesus- or buddha-qualities...
stop wasn't Hitler the vegetarian, non-smoking and faithful guy?
...but you're certainly right: there's no leadership required to take action. one waiting for the other to make the first move is perpetuating the situation
@andrea:
(def 3) this puts GWB along with a huge number of CEO's in the row of the poorest people on the planet... I can certainly agree... 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"a rich man is not the one who has the most
but the one who needs the least"
--------------------------------------------------------------------
@MM: sure does - unless the "leader" would contain jesus- or buddha-qualities...
stop wasn't Hitler the vegetarian, non-smoking and faithful guy? ...but you're certainly right: there's no leadership required to take action. one waiting for the other to make the first move is perpetuating the situation
@andrea:
(def 3) this puts GWB along with a huge number of CEO's in the row of the poorest people on the planet... I can certainly agree... --------------------------------------------------------------------
"a rich man is not the one who has the most
but the one who needs the least"
--------------------------------------------------------------------
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
The song played at Jeff Buckley's funeral. A song I think I'd like to have played at mine. This is the me I saw travelling and the me I want back now:
"Satisfied Mind" - Jeff Buckley
How many times have you heard someone say
If I had money, I will do things my way
But little they know, that it's so hard to find
One rich man in ten with a satisfied mind
Money can't buy back all your youth when you're old
A friend when you're lonely, oh peace to your soul
The wealthiest person is a pauper at times
Compared to the man with a satisfied mind
My life is over and my time has run out
My friends and my loved ones
I will leave them no doubt
But one things for certain
When it comes my time
I'll leave this old world, oh yeah oh yeah, with a satisfied mind
One things for certain, when it comes my time, oh yeah,
I'll leave this old world, oh with a satisfied mind
Mind mind mind mind, satisfied mind
The song played at Jeff Buckley's funeral. A song I think I'd like to have played at mine. This is the me I saw travelling and the me I want back now:
"Satisfied Mind" - Jeff Buckley
How many times have you heard someone say
If I had money, I will do things my way
But little they know, that it's so hard to find
One rich man in ten with a satisfied mind
Money can't buy back all your youth when you're old
A friend when you're lonely, oh peace to your soul
The wealthiest person is a pauper at times
Compared to the man with a satisfied mind
My life is over and my time has run out
My friends and my loved ones
I will leave them no doubt
But one things for certain
When it comes my time
I'll leave this old world, oh yeah oh yeah, with a satisfied mind
One things for certain, when it comes my time, oh yeah,
I'll leave this old world, oh with a satisfied mind
Mind mind mind mind, satisfied mind
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
nice, although i feel that there is something wrong with it, but thats just me. it definatly is a nice song
nice, although i feel that there is something wrong with it, but thats just me. it definatly is a nice song
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
Dreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
Posted:
Andrea, very nice!! I think that sums things up beautifully.
I would like to add a note, I was thinking about the other day. Obviously in Manhatten there are many people who live richly who live "the good life" and many who do not. Nonetheless I wouldn't think of anywhere I've been there as an impoverished place.
But in Brooklyn I feel kind of a weird feeling of poverty pervasive even in the nicer districts which have good shops and all that jazz... an actual material poverty, compounded muchly by oppurtunity poverty... It still feels, if not like typhical first world america, better than the worse districts of, say, uruguay, but worse than the better ones... worse, even, than the ones which would be "comprable."
And then there's areas like crown heights and bed-stuy, which feel to me as far more impoverished in all ways than anywhere I've been (or my family has been since 1989...er.. hrm... actually lets call that 1995!) outside of this country (US) ... Now, I've not been to places which are war-torn or particuarly impoverished from an absolute standpoint, by any means. But I've been to places that are easily third world by most major western countries standards. And I have to say that even the poorest seem to be doing better getting by there than the poorest here... Even in some of the worse countries, (note, not *all* !) talking to people from there, I don't get anything like the sense of hopelessness you get from some people here!
Andrea, very nice!! I think that sums things up beautifully.
I would like to add a note, I was thinking about the other day. Obviously in Manhatten there are many people who live richly who live "the good life" and many who do not. Nonetheless I wouldn't think of anywhere I've been there as an impoverished place.
But in Brooklyn I feel kind of a weird feeling of poverty pervasive even in the nicer districts which have good shops and all that jazz... an actual material poverty, compounded muchly by oppurtunity poverty... It still feels, if not like typhical first world america, better than the worse districts of, say, uruguay, but worse than the better ones... worse, even, than the ones which would be "comprable."
And then there's areas like crown heights and bed-stuy, which feel to me as far more impoverished in all ways than anywhere I've been (or my family has been since 1989...er.. hrm... actually lets call that 1995!) outside of this country (US) ... Now, I've not been to places which are war-torn or particuarly impoverished from an absolute standpoint, by any means. But I've been to places that are easily third world by most major western countries standards. And I have to say that even the poorest seem to be doing better getting by there than the poorest here... Even in some of the worse countries, (note, not *all* !) talking to people from there, I don't get anything like the sense of hopelessness you get from some people here!
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
i'd have to disagreee with you kyrian, i think youll find thousands more poor people die in thrid world countries than poor people in western countires.
i'd have to disagreee with you kyrian, i think youll find thousands more poor people die in thrid world countries than poor people in western countires.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
I don't want to imply that those in 3rd. world countries die with a smile on their faces - but if it comes to poverty on all levels...
Kyrian there are basic differencies in the social environments. Some poor families in other countries have still a widespread social network and even if the gap between rich and poor is tremendous, they are not suffering from the american dream "it's all in your own hands" - contributing to the feeling of being a looser in society. Being poor in most coutries of the world is just "as good as it gets" [/cynism] with no chance to escape. That makes it more easy to cope with it.
Right now it's believed that 80% of the poor black community will not return to New Orleans. Which might make it move "up the market" [/cynism]... and deprive it from it's soul... all that jazz
Let's send a prayer that this will not be happening...
I don't want to imply that those in 3rd. world countries die with a smile on their faces - but if it comes to poverty on all levels...
Kyrian there are basic differencies in the social environments. Some poor families in other countries have still a widespread social network and even if the gap between rich and poor is tremendous, they are not suffering from the american dream "it's all in your own hands" - contributing to the feeling of being a looser in society. Being poor in most coutries of the world is just "as good as it gets" [/cynism] with no chance to escape. That makes it more easy to cope with it.
Right now it's believed that 80% of the poor black community will not return to New Orleans. Which might make it move "up the market" [/cynism]... and deprive it from it's soul... all that jazz
Let's send a prayer that this will not be happening...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Dreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
Posted:
mr majestik, i belive you....
...modulo america. Where poor people have this way of dying in frighteningly similar rates (see infant mortality, for example).
...altho it does depend on your definition of most, as if you wanted to say just over 50% you might still well be right... I'm not sure. And its late.
mr majestik, i belive you....
...modulo america. Where poor people have this way of dying in frighteningly similar rates (see infant mortality, for example).
...altho it does depend on your definition of most, as if you wanted to say just over 50% you might still well be right... I'm not sure. And its late.
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
do you mean to say poor people in the US are dieing at the same rate as people in third world countries relative to their population?
i dont think i follow your above post.
do you mean to say poor people in the US are dieing at the same rate as people in third world countries relative to their population?
i dont think i follow your above post.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
I hate the "american dream" thing. On Romanian TV there were ads about the american green card lottery or whatever bullsh*t. And every time it came on it made me sick. it was like it was telling the romanians that their life was crap and worthless in romania and they wanted to go to america.
/rant.
Written by: FireTom
suffering from the american dream
I hate the "american dream" thing. On Romanian TV there were ads about the american green card lottery or whatever bullsh*t. And every time it came on it made me sick. it was like it was telling the romanians that their life was crap and worthless in romania and they wanted to go to america.
/rant.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
I was homeless with my son for nearly a year. For part of it I didn't even have him. I lived off of the generosity of friends as my family had turned their backs on me. I had no income. No savings. I was arrested (long and very stupid story) and friends even pitched in to pay the fine because they knew it was bogus.
There were many times that Noah ate and I didn't. And it hurt like hell...my pride, my body, my heart.
But we knew we were loved, and where the lines were. We lived a very rich life and it brought us together.
I have a home now. A job. A business. Noah is healthy and happy. We have food and clothes and even a very small bit of expendible money. I sit here tired and lonely and have been on the edge of tears all day feeling tremendously lacking.
There is a HUGE difference.
If you are asking for a technical difference, then Mr. Majestik is absolutely correct. We are judged by government set standards of absolute and relative poverty. And as the cost of living increases while the pay rate does not in a comparable way, you will find that the two will become more synonymous, unfortunately.
These are simply judged on material possessions however, and only a system that is materialistic will judge based on that alone.
There is also the fact of whether or not you know better.
I am thinking that in the dark, remote parts of the Amazon there are tribes who believe they live pretty richly, and do not realize they are even concidered poor by a vocal and judgemental portion of the world.
To me, imho, rich and poor is HOW you live on the whole.
Are you happy and your basic needs met? Then you are very rich indeed.
I was homeless with my son for nearly a year. For part of it I didn't even have him. I lived off of the generosity of friends as my family had turned their backs on me. I had no income. No savings. I was arrested (long and very stupid story) and friends even pitched in to pay the fine because they knew it was bogus.
There were many times that Noah ate and I didn't. And it hurt like hell...my pride, my body, my heart.
But we knew we were loved, and where the lines were. We lived a very rich life and it brought us together.
I have a home now. A job. A business. Noah is healthy and happy. We have food and clothes and even a very small bit of expendible money. I sit here tired and lonely and have been on the edge of tears all day feeling tremendously lacking.
There is a HUGE difference.
If you are asking for a technical difference, then Mr. Majestik is absolutely correct. We are judged by government set standards of absolute and relative poverty. And as the cost of living increases while the pay rate does not in a comparable way, you will find that the two will become more synonymous, unfortunately.
These are simply judged on material possessions however, and only a system that is materialistic will judge based on that alone.
There is also the fact of whether or not you know better.
I am thinking that in the dark, remote parts of the Amazon there are tribes who believe they live pretty richly, and do not realize they are even concidered poor by a vocal and judgemental portion of the world.
To me, imho, rich and poor is HOW you live on the whole.
Are you happy and your basic needs met? Then you are very rich indeed.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
hear hear
hear hear
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
i guess in a small way it's relative to what me and bf are dealing with right now
i have been Hungry
he has been homeless, Hungry, etc
right now for the next few days...i have no money...and he ran out of money a long time ago
he's freaking out cause i can't buy him cigarettes and whatever (but he didn't go to work last week)...he wants good food; venison, pollock, canned soup, noodles, rice and such are not good enough for him...he wants to trick people into giving us food and money...
last night he was whining because i had been short with him
let me see why...the food i bought most of but was not eating much of so he could was not good enough, to make sure smoke money went as far as possible, i cut down...it's hard to be cheerful when the other person is complaining and you haven't had a cigarette in four hours...
but i look at it this way...i know i will get paid on weds...i know he gets paid on fri...this will pass and we can go get food and beer/wine...i am so not poor, wealthy, no, but poor, no...but he who has been worse off than me, is eating and smoking and drinking as fast as he can and then wonders where it all went and now we must take advantage of some good samaritans because he can't learn to be moderate for a few days til we can figure out our situation
we aren't poor, we have a roof over our heads, heat, food, tv-no cable, cd player, his ipod, his xbox, his game cube...i won't take money or food from people because we are not poorly off...i can't help but thinking if he thinks this is poor what would he think of people in other countries
i guess in a small way it's relative to what me and bf are dealing with right now
i have been Hungry
he has been homeless, Hungry, etc
right now for the next few days...i have no money...and he ran out of money a long time ago
he's freaking out cause i can't buy him cigarettes and whatever (but he didn't go to work last week)...he wants good food; venison, pollock, canned soup, noodles, rice and such are not good enough for him...he wants to trick people into giving us food and money...
last night he was whining because i had been short with him
let me see why...the food i bought most of but was not eating much of so he could was not good enough, to make sure smoke money went as far as possible, i cut down...it's hard to be cheerful when the other person is complaining and you haven't had a cigarette in four hours...
but i look at it this way...i know i will get paid on weds...i know he gets paid on fri...this will pass and we can go get food and beer/wine...i am so not poor, wealthy, no, but poor, no...but he who has been worse off than me, is eating and smoking and drinking as fast as he can and then wonders where it all went and now we must take advantage of some good samaritans because he can't learn to be moderate for a few days til we can figure out our situation
we aren't poor, we have a roof over our heads, heat, food, tv-no cable, cd player, his ipod, his xbox, his game cube...i won't take money or food from people because we are not poorly off...i can't help but thinking if he thinks this is poor what would he think of people in other countries
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
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