Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > lead hands (and even handed moves)
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Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Posted:
so lead hands are something we dont talk about much... but I want to bring it up, because I'm a bit confused.. and writing things out always helps me understand things better...
ok.. since the weave is cross handed, we dont really have much of an isse when it comes to lead hands.. I mean you have a right hand led even beat pattern whihc is unatural feeling (I'm not saying you can't make it natural, I'm just saying its not natural.. ) and you have a left hand led even beat pattern.. whihc is equivalent.. and you combine the two and you get an alternating lead hand pattern that is odd beat and quite natural..
thus we get even patterns that are equivalent regardless of whihc hand leads, and can even alter the hands used to lead on the alternating odd beat patterns by adding a little twist to it.. (kinda like an offset) think 3bt weave that uses 5bt twist.. (if that doesnt make sense, dont think too hard.. its not overly important to the topic at hand)..
now, lets move to even handed moves... ex. windmill, corkscrew, and watermill.. unlike the cross handed patterns..these have equal reach of each hand throughout the mvoe.. and thus naturally end up even beat.. granted you can make them odd beat, by leaning a little to one side or another, but essentially what you are doing is giving the move a little cross handedness..
now to get to the point.. why is is so hard to have either hand lead the same pattern in an even handed move? I mean you can 2bt either hand quite easily.. but getting the 4bt to lead with the other hand is FRICKIN' HARD.. in fact.. its easier to just move on to the 6bt than it is to do the 4bt with the other hand..
now one of the things I noticed was that if I tried to a corkscrew that went down behind me, rather than in front of me..I can get the other hand to lead easily... but then isnt that like switching direction... (after all the top of a bth corkscrew its the same as the bottom of a front corkscrew going the other way... ) it might be easeir to think of it being like a wallplane weave, where the top represents the crossover plane and the front and back represent the two different directions..
I'm confused, because when you do change the lead hand on crosshanded mvoes, you don't have to go the other directions to get the other hand to lead.. so why do even handed moves only go one way/hand? I mean isnt the 5bt corkscrew made of the the right and left hand led 4bt corks? so why is that other 4bt so hard to do by itself? what am I missing?
so lead hands are something we dont talk about much... but I want to bring it up, because I'm a bit confused.. and writing things out always helps me understand things better...
ok.. since the weave is cross handed, we dont really have much of an isse when it comes to lead hands.. I mean you have a right hand led even beat pattern whihc is unatural feeling (I'm not saying you can't make it natural, I'm just saying its not natural.. ) and you have a left hand led even beat pattern.. whihc is equivalent.. and you combine the two and you get an alternating lead hand pattern that is odd beat and quite natural..
thus we get even patterns that are equivalent regardless of whihc hand leads, and can even alter the hands used to lead on the alternating odd beat patterns by adding a little twist to it.. (kinda like an offset) think 3bt weave that uses 5bt twist.. (if that doesnt make sense, dont think too hard.. its not overly important to the topic at hand)..
now, lets move to even handed moves... ex. windmill, corkscrew, and watermill.. unlike the cross handed patterns..these have equal reach of each hand throughout the mvoe.. and thus naturally end up even beat.. granted you can make them odd beat, by leaning a little to one side or another, but essentially what you are doing is giving the move a little cross handedness..
now to get to the point.. why is is so hard to have either hand lead the same pattern in an even handed move? I mean you can 2bt either hand quite easily.. but getting the 4bt to lead with the other hand is FRICKIN' HARD.. in fact.. its easier to just move on to the 6bt than it is to do the 4bt with the other hand..
now one of the things I noticed was that if I tried to a corkscrew that went down behind me, rather than in front of me..I can get the other hand to lead easily... but then isnt that like switching direction... (after all the top of a bth corkscrew its the same as the bottom of a front corkscrew going the other way... ) it might be easeir to think of it being like a wallplane weave, where the top represents the crossover plane and the front and back represent the two different directions..
I'm confused, because when you do change the lead hand on crosshanded mvoes, you don't have to go the other directions to get the other hand to lead.. so why do even handed moves only go one way/hand? I mean isnt the 5bt corkscrew made of the the right and left hand led 4bt corks? so why is that other 4bt so hard to do by itself? what am I missing?
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
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Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Posted:
Chocolate?
I see your point though...and suffer from the same thing.
It's probably something complex to do with your brain and your right/left-handedness.
The way I see it, regardless of spin direction, move, plane - my right hand is always dominant. If it's RH lead, the left follows, but if it's a left hand lead, the right still leads, but "pushes" the left hand. So the RH for me is always wanting to lead and pushes to (almost) overtake the left hand, which creates dodgy timing, and makes the move feel a lot more un-natural.
Conciously, whenever I'm learning a move (or just thinking about a tricky one) I'm always thinking about my right hand. Even in something where the hands are completely different and aren't really lead by either hand - my focus is on the RH.
Hyperloop throws for example, the basic (for me) is hyperloop the RH poi, let it go, pull up with the left to release the RH poi into a throw. Technically, I'm sure this is a LH lead move, it has the control over the power and direction of the "key" poi which makes or breaks the move. Yet still, my focus is on releasing and catching the right poi with my right hand.
To take your example of a left-lead 4bt corkscrew (which I agree is a bee-atch of a move, even after 4 years). If you try and lead it with your left hand, it's tricky as you're leading with your less-dominant hand, so I think the brain compensates and tries to get the RH to "lead from behind".
Or, I might have completely mis-understood your post, in which case the answer is "Yes - probably"
Chocolate?
I see your point though...and suffer from the same thing.
It's probably something complex to do with your brain and your right/left-handedness.
The way I see it, regardless of spin direction, move, plane - my right hand is always dominant. If it's RH lead, the left follows, but if it's a left hand lead, the right still leads, but "pushes" the left hand. So the RH for me is always wanting to lead and pushes to (almost) overtake the left hand, which creates dodgy timing, and makes the move feel a lot more un-natural.
Conciously, whenever I'm learning a move (or just thinking about a tricky one) I'm always thinking about my right hand. Even in something where the hands are completely different and aren't really lead by either hand - my focus is on the RH.
Hyperloop throws for example, the basic (for me) is hyperloop the RH poi, let it go, pull up with the left to release the RH poi into a throw. Technically, I'm sure this is a LH lead move, it has the control over the power and direction of the "key" poi which makes or breaks the move. Yet still, my focus is on releasing and catching the right poi with my right hand.
To take your example of a left-lead 4bt corkscrew (which I agree is a bee-atch of a move, even after 4 years). If you try and lead it with your left hand, it's tricky as you're leading with your less-dominant hand, so I think the brain compensates and tries to get the RH to "lead from behind".
Or, I might have completely mis-understood your post, in which case the answer is "Yes - probably"
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Bastard Newbie Messiah
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Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Posted:
haha...
thanx for the reply...
its not a dominant hand thing though...
what I'm getting as is this:
you can do a 4bt clockwise corkscrew leading with the right OR left hand..
you can do a counter clockwise corkscrew leading with either the right OR left hand..
if you go by the direction of the bottom circle... I'm willing to bet you use the right hand to lead clockwise 4bt cork, and the left to lead a counter clock 4bt cork.. so why is it so hard to do the opposite?
most everyone only does one hand one direction and the other hand the other direction.. why? why is it soo hard with even handed moves like corks, windmills, and watermills to lead with either hand, going either direction...
haha...
thanx for the reply...
its not a dominant hand thing though...
what I'm getting as is this:
you can do a 4bt clockwise corkscrew leading with the right OR left hand..
you can do a counter clockwise corkscrew leading with either the right OR left hand..
if you go by the direction of the bottom circle... I'm willing to bet you use the right hand to lead clockwise 4bt cork, and the left to lead a counter clock 4bt cork.. so why is it so hard to do the opposite?
most everyone only does one hand one direction and the other hand the other direction.. why? why is it soo hard with even handed moves like corks, windmills, and watermills to lead with either hand, going either direction...
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
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GOLD Member
addict
625 posts
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand
addict
625 posts
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand
Posted:
FINALLY!
I wrote a post about 5bt reverse windmill (not reverse but REVerse) afew yrs ago (though 5 could have been wrong). Noone got it. And after awhile i started to doubt myself. I have recently discovered that its not concidered windmill, because of the "fountain thread". Windmill HAS to be performed in a certain way, bth. In the fountain there is no windmill, the poi go bth by the side of the head, not above it.
On the other hand, i have no problem leading with either hand, but i do spend abit of time doing offsets. Which helps alot, and im real anal about working both hands and never having a weakness, or a "weak" hand. If i feel one is weaker, ill fix it.
Tho someitmes if you do toooo many sets the same, your muscle mem gets stuck in the "on" position, then when you try to learn something similar you just have to break that memory because it inhibits your progress... Example see my impossible ww thread
FINALLY!
I wrote a post about 5bt reverse windmill (not reverse but REVerse) afew yrs ago (though 5 could have been wrong). Noone got it. And after awhile i started to doubt myself. I have recently discovered that its not concidered windmill, because of the "fountain thread". Windmill HAS to be performed in a certain way, bth. In the fountain there is no windmill, the poi go bth by the side of the head, not above it.
On the other hand, i have no problem leading with either hand, but i do spend abit of time doing offsets. Which helps alot, and im real anal about working both hands and never having a weakness, or a "weak" hand. If i feel one is weaker, ill fix it.
Tho someitmes if you do toooo many sets the same, your muscle mem gets stuck in the "on" position, then when you try to learn something similar you just have to break that memory because it inhibits your progress... Example see my impossible ww thread
veteran
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK
Posted:
It is annoying... I made myself learn windmills with my left hand leading a while back, but they still give me the fear when I'm doing them... which isn't nearly as often as the other way.
It is annoying... I made myself learn windmills with my left hand leading a while back, but they still give me the fear when I'm doing them... which isn't nearly as often as the other way.
"Moo," said the happy cow.
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big and good and broken
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Posted:
that's what you get for not drilling your 2bt weaves when you started spinning poi
i agree with durbs and the dragon - the offsets thing is a massive help and is something i use a lot too.
2bt weaves (including all the offset 2bt weaves which really hammer in you timing when you add extra circles to your weaves) are the base weave move - drill them and this all seems like less of a problem.
having said that, i don't like doing the windmill the other way either
or reverse offset 2 bt weaves for that matter
cole. x
that's what you get for not drilling your 2bt weaves when you started spinning poi
i agree with durbs and the dragon - the offsets thing is a massive help and is something i use a lot too.
2bt weaves (including all the offset 2bt weaves which really hammer in you timing when you add extra circles to your weaves) are the base weave move - drill them and this all seems like less of a problem.
having said that, i don't like doing the windmill the other way either
or reverse offset 2 bt weaves for that matter
cole. x
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1,376 posts
Location: London, UK
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK
Posted:
Hey I learnt all my 2bt weaves
And the offset ones, although yes, reverse offset 2bt weaves are not nice at all and I really should spend more time cleaning them up
I've even practised all my 2bt BF weaves and offset weaves :P
Hey I learnt all my 2bt weaves
And the offset ones, although yes, reverse offset 2bt weaves are not nice at all and I really should spend more time cleaning them up I've even practised all my 2bt BF weaves and offset weaves :P
"Moo," said the happy cow.
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big and good and broken
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Posted:
did you now...
in *all* hand positions?
with turns?
most people only bother doing this in the two (or four, depending on your approach) most basic planes - the two outside wheel planes (and front/back wallplane).
if you have *really* drilled 2bt ofset weaves, you should have absolutely no trouble doing all of the 4bt btb waistwraps with turns.
i've thought quite a bit about this recently because my first uberpoi workshop is based around these kind of back to basics ideas
cole. x
did you now...
in *all* hand positions?
with turns?
most people only bother doing this in the two (or four, depending on your approach) most basic planes - the two outside wheel planes (and front/back wallplane).
if you have *really* drilled 2bt ofset weaves, you should have absolutely no trouble doing all of the 4bt btb waistwraps with turns.
i've thought quite a bit about this recently because my first uberpoi workshop is based around these kind of back to basics ideas
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
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Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
Posted:
i have a question... it might be stupid.
but when your doing 2bt moves how can you have a leading hand.. its like two dots on a circle chasing each other around separted by 180 degrees? or not?
i have a question... it might be stupid.
but when your doing 2bt moves how can you have a leading hand.. its like two dots on a circle chasing each other around separted by 180 degrees? or not?
Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no
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big and good and broken
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Posted:
its all in terms of crossovers oli - there are two forwards 2bt wheel plane weaves:
one with right hand crossing over first (leading) and left hand following
one with left hand crossing over first (leading) and right hand following
cole. x
its all in terms of crossovers oli - there are two forwards 2bt wheel plane weaves:
one with right hand crossing over first (leading) and left hand following
one with left hand crossing over first (leading) and right hand following
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
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not with cactus
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Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
Posted:
but is the right crossing over first or the left crossing under first? both happen at once. im still a bit confused... i know what you are saying but im still not sure how one can be seen to be following the other more than the other is following it.
edit: i just picked up my poi and did some 2bt weaves which is what i should have done before, and i see now, the right crosses to the left when the left is on the right hand side when the right hand is leading. so im less muddled up now
EDITED_BY: oli (1119534752)
but is the right crossing over first or the left crossing under first? both happen at once. im still a bit confused... i know what you are saying but im still not sure how one can be seen to be following the other more than the other is following it.
edit: i just picked up my poi and did some 2bt weaves which is what i should have done before, and i see now, the right crosses to the left when the left is on the right hand side when the right hand is leading. so im less muddled up now
EDITED_BY: oli (1119534752)
Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no
veteran
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK
Posted:
Ok, perhaps not everywhere
Written by: coleman
did you now...
in *all* hand positions?
with turns?
most people only bother doing this in the two (or four, depending on your approach) most basic planes - the two outside wheel planes (and front/back wallplane).
if you have *really* drilled 2bt ofset weaves, you should have absolutely no trouble doing all of the 4bt btb waistwraps with turns.
i've thought quite a bit about this recently because my first uberpoi workshop is based around these kind of back to basics ideas
cole. x
Ok, perhaps not everywhere
"Moo," said the happy cow.
BRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Posted:
I still dont get it..
I mean I have all of my 2bts everywhere.. b/c of offsetting everything.. but my 4bt righth hand led clockwise cork and 4bt left hand led clockwise cork.. dont look the same..
nor do my 2bt corks.. my 2 beat right hand led counter clock cork has seperated hands, while my 2bt lefthand led counterclock cork has my wrists touching (like a little twist)...
shouldnt the corks and windmills be the same as weaves.. (apart from the even and cross handedness) so why do my even beats even handed moves have to go a degree of twist higher in order to do a different lead hand?
I'm going to go play with my odd beat even handed moves and see if I can change the hand that leads from either end without adding any extra twist..
I still dont get it..
I mean I have all of my 2bts everywhere.. b/c of offsetting everything.. but my 4bt righth hand led clockwise cork and 4bt left hand led clockwise cork.. dont look the same..
nor do my 2bt corks.. my 2 beat right hand led counter clock cork has seperated hands, while my 2bt lefthand led counterclock cork has my wrists touching (like a little twist)...
shouldnt the corks and windmills be the same as weaves.. (apart from the even and cross handedness) so why do my even beats even handed moves have to go a degree of twist higher in order to do a different lead hand?
I'm going to go play with my odd beat even handed moves and see if I can change the hand that leads from either end without adding any extra twist..
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
oli - you're so gonna love uberpoi
rev - i'm not sure i understand your problem completely...
this is no different to the problem of getting offset 2bt weaves with different hands leading - if you have no problem with getting offest 2bt weaves to swap leading hands then i don't see why you'd have a problem with the 4bt...
your cw 4bt rh led cork should be equivalent to your ccw 4bt lh led cork.
i think...
at first glance, that sounds like an offset problem but turn 180 degrees when you switch the lead hand and you should find that you get a better equivalency.
kind of...
the difference is the plane orientation to your arms - ceiling plane messes with it a bit since there is a different kind of 'own side' for a hand - there are less levels of crossover symmetry.
to get symmetry in even beat weaves in this plane orientation, you need to completely mirror the move.
so whereas in wheelplane there are two levels of symmetry (leading hand symmetry and poi direction symmetry) in the ceiling plane there is only one level (poi direction and leading hand are coupled to give only one level - they both must be reversed if you want the move to be fully equivalent).
i.e. you can only get symmetry in the ceiling plane weaves by doing the *complete* reverse of the move - you can easily find this equivalent by recording yourself spinning the move and then playing the video backwards.
have fun
cole. x
disclaimer: i have no access to poi and this was all worked out in my head
oli - you're so gonna love uberpoi
rev - i'm not sure i understand your problem completely...
Written by: Rev
but getting the 4bt to lead with the other hand is FRICKIN' HARD.. in fact.. its easier to just move on to the 6bt than it is to do the 4bt with the other hand..
this is no different to the problem of getting offset 2bt weaves with different hands leading - if you have no problem with getting offest 2bt weaves to swap leading hands then i don't see why you'd have a problem with the 4bt...
Written by: Rev
I mean I have all of my 2bts everywhere.. b/c of offsetting everything.. but my 4bt righth hand led clockwise cork and 4bt left hand led clockwise cork.. dont look the same..
your cw 4bt rh led cork should be equivalent to your ccw 4bt lh led cork.
i think...
Written by: Rev
nor do my 2bt corks.. my 2 beat right hand led counter clock cork has seperated hands, while my 2bt lefthand led counterclock cork has my wrists touching (like a little twist)...
at first glance, that sounds like an offset problem but turn 180 degrees when you switch the lead hand and you should find that you get a better equivalency.
Written by: Rev
shouldnt the corks and windmills be the same as weaves.. (apart from the even and cross handedness) so why do my even beats even handed moves have to go a degree of twist higher in order to do a different lead hand?
kind of...
the difference is the plane orientation to your arms - ceiling plane messes with it a bit since there is a different kind of 'own side' for a hand - there are less levels of crossover symmetry.
to get symmetry in even beat weaves in this plane orientation, you need to completely mirror the move.
so whereas in wheelplane there are two levels of symmetry (leading hand symmetry and poi direction symmetry) in the ceiling plane there is only one level (poi direction and leading hand are coupled to give only one level - they both must be reversed if you want the move to be fully equivalent).
i.e. you can only get symmetry in the ceiling plane weaves by doing the *complete* reverse of the move - you can easily find this equivalent by recording yourself spinning the move and then playing the video backwards.
Written by: Rev
I'm going to go play with my odd beat even handed moves and see if I can change the hand that leads from either end without adding any extra twist..
have fun
cole. x
disclaimer: i have no access to poi and this was all worked out in my head
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
BRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
Posted:
Rev you sad:
"It might be easeir to think of it being like a wallplane weave, where the top represents the crossover plane and the front and back represent the two different directions."
When you look the same way on butterfly side to side transition, you can find that important is not which hand crossed which, which one is over which one. The important thing is the Chage (Cross- follow) that happen. You can find that it happen on the top, where the Poi meet together, or and (this is the two keys) on the bottom.
Try to do basic transition with BF, but once with the change in the top one in the bottom.
Important is not the leading hand important is the change in the middle the Poi make.
light,
:R
Rev you sad:
"It might be easeir to think of it being like a wallplane weave, where the top represents the crossover plane and the front and back represent the two different directions."
When you look the same way on butterfly side to side transition, you can find that important is not which hand crossed which, which one is over which one. The important thing is the Chage (Cross- follow) that happen. You can find that it happen on the top, where the Poi meet together, or and (this is the two keys) on the bottom.
Try to do basic transition with BF, but once with the change in the top one in the bottom.
Important is not the leading hand important is the change in the middle the Poi make.
light,
:R
POI THEO(R)IST
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Location: Bucks
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Location: Bucks
Posted:
from what i can work out in my head i think is it jst cos of the positions that your hands have to be in to perform th move.
when spinning an ACW windmill (the poi move up on the left hand side of the body and down on the right) it is natural for the left hand to lead this is because you can keep your wrists apart and so your hands can easly move past your head. If on th other hand you lead with your right it means that your right hand will have to stay to the left of your left hand. this being a much more uncomfortable position to spin in means that it feels much more unatural. the most important thing to note here is that in both of the above cercumstances the hand movments are basicaly the same and are just mirror images of each other (the same hand movmentsas a 2bt weave). the trick part is getting your arms into the right position.
the same princaple is applyed to a CW windmill and also to corkscrews
Seb
from what i can work out in my head i think is it jst cos of the positions that your hands have to be in to perform th move.
when spinning an ACW windmill (the poi move up on the left hand side of the body and down on the right) it is natural for the left hand to lead this is because you can keep your wrists apart and so your hands can easly move past your head. If on th other hand you lead with your right it means that your right hand will have to stay to the left of your left hand. this being a much more uncomfortable position to spin in means that it feels much more unatural. the most important thing to note here is that in both of the above cercumstances the hand movments are basicaly the same and are just mirror images of each other (the same hand movmentsas a 2bt weave). the trick part is getting your arms into the right position.
the same princaple is applyed to a CW windmill and also to corkscrews
Seb
There is nothing quite like standing on your head.....
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Bastard Newbie Messiah
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Posted:
ok guys... I had a play.. and I think i found the problem...
lets start with a weave.. whihc is cross handed..
you can lead your even beat weaves, with either hand.. and get a symetrically equivalent weave.. with either hand... either direction...
right hand led 4bt fwd weave= 5bt type twist(2nd degree crossover) left side, and 3bt type twist (1rst degree crossover)right side.. 4 bts each side..
left hand led 4bt fwd weave= 5bt twist (2nd degree crossover) right side and 3bt(first degree corossover) left side
now when we take the same crosshanded move and move it to odd beat.. where's the alt? there isnt one...
3bt fwd= 3bt twist (first degree crossover ) on each side.. 3bts each side..
I eman you could use an offset to get opposite alternating.. but you can flip that as well..
you can take a 5bt twist (second degree crossover) and only untwist 3 bts, and thehn retwist the 3 bts.. thus getting a 3bt weave... but.. depending on whihc side you twist the 5bts, you can get either hand to lead either way with that 3bt weave..
so we are left with no 3bt weave with the right hand leading left and the left hand leading right.. unless I'm missing something.. whihc is possible because I'm not thinking clearly at the moment..
now lets move to even handed moves.. for simplicity I'm going to again use the bottom circle on the corkscrew as the direction determinate..
so lets take an odd beat corkscrew..
I can do a 5bt CW corkscrew with the left hand leading down OR the right hand leading down.. and get symetrically equivalent weaves.. both 5bt.. both CW... kinda like our symetrically quivalent 4bt weaves..
now move to an even beat corkscrew.. neither the 4bt nor the 2bt are symetrically equivalent.. because of the direction of the poi the poi HAVE to twist more with one lead hand than with the other.. I repeat HAVE to..
if you do a CCW 2bt corkscrew.. the right hand leads and the hands stay seperate (normal 2bt weaveage).. if you do a CCW left hand led 2bt corkscrew.. the poi have to enter into a 1rst degree crossover.. in other words.. you have to put the right hand on the left side and the left hand on the right side in order to do it.. but that result is like the 3bt alts, above.. why? because you can do a 2bt CCW cork with the left hand leading and the left hand either over the right hand the whole time or under the right hand the whole time..
if you move to 4bt CCW corkscrew you get the same result.. you can lead with the left hand no problem.. but you cannot lead with the right hand and get a symetrically equivalent pattern without resorting to offsets and thus getting a 4bt cork that has 6bt sof twist at the top and only untweisting 4bts at the bottom.. or one that twists 6bts at the bottom and only untwists 4bts at the top... again like our 2bt alt.. and like the 3bt weave alts..
oh... and this is all same direction pattern by the way.. this doesnt apply to butterfly because butterfly is naturally symetrical.. same direction isnt..
but I guess I answered my question..
crosshanded moves have a single alternating lead hand pattern set..
even handed moves have a single same lead hand pattern set..
you can bypass this, but you have to go into an offset and change the base twist of the pattern..
edit: I guess a 5bt corkscrew isnt two 4bt corks, like a 5bt weave is two 4bt weaves.. I'm guessing a 6bt corkscrew is two 5bt corks.. and a 4bt cork is two 3bt corks...
ouch...
EDITED_BY: Rev (1119557577)
ok guys... I had a play.. and I think i found the problem...
lets start with a weave.. whihc is cross handed..
you can lead your even beat weaves, with either hand.. and get a symetrically equivalent weave.. with either hand... either direction...
right hand led 4bt fwd weave= 5bt type twist(2nd degree crossover) left side, and 3bt type twist (1rst degree crossover)right side.. 4 bts each side..
left hand led 4bt fwd weave= 5bt twist (2nd degree crossover) right side and 3bt(first degree corossover) left side
now when we take the same crosshanded move and move it to odd beat.. where's the alt? there isnt one...
3bt fwd= 3bt twist (first degree crossover ) on each side.. 3bts each side..
I eman you could use an offset to get opposite alternating.. but you can flip that as well..
you can take a 5bt twist (second degree crossover) and only untwist 3 bts, and thehn retwist the 3 bts.. thus getting a 3bt weave... but.. depending on whihc side you twist the 5bts, you can get either hand to lead either way with that 3bt weave..
so we are left with no 3bt weave with the right hand leading left and the left hand leading right.. unless I'm missing something.. whihc is possible because I'm not thinking clearly at the moment..
now lets move to even handed moves.. for simplicity I'm going to again use the bottom circle on the corkscrew as the direction determinate..
so lets take an odd beat corkscrew..
I can do a 5bt CW corkscrew with the left hand leading down OR the right hand leading down.. and get symetrically equivalent weaves.. both 5bt.. both CW... kinda like our symetrically quivalent 4bt weaves..
now move to an even beat corkscrew.. neither the 4bt nor the 2bt are symetrically equivalent.. because of the direction of the poi the poi HAVE to twist more with one lead hand than with the other.. I repeat HAVE to..
if you do a CCW 2bt corkscrew.. the right hand leads and the hands stay seperate (normal 2bt weaveage).. if you do a CCW left hand led 2bt corkscrew.. the poi have to enter into a 1rst degree crossover.. in other words.. you have to put the right hand on the left side and the left hand on the right side in order to do it.. but that result is like the 3bt alts, above.. why? because you can do a 2bt CCW cork with the left hand leading and the left hand either over the right hand the whole time or under the right hand the whole time..
if you move to 4bt CCW corkscrew you get the same result.. you can lead with the left hand no problem.. but you cannot lead with the right hand and get a symetrically equivalent pattern without resorting to offsets and thus getting a 4bt cork that has 6bt sof twist at the top and only untweisting 4bts at the bottom.. or one that twists 6bts at the bottom and only untwists 4bts at the top... again like our 2bt alt.. and like the 3bt weave alts..
oh... and this is all same direction pattern by the way.. this doesnt apply to butterfly because butterfly is naturally symetrical.. same direction isnt..
but I guess I answered my question..
crosshanded moves have a single alternating lead hand pattern set..
even handed moves have a single same lead hand pattern set..
you can bypass this, but you have to go into an offset and change the base twist of the pattern..
edit: I guess a 5bt corkscrew isnt two 4bt corks, like a 5bt weave is two 4bt weaves.. I'm guessing a 6bt corkscrew is two 5bt corks.. and a 4bt cork is two 3bt corks...
ouch...
EDITED_BY: Rev (1119557577)
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Posted:
you would be right there becase it is a odd number beat weave the poi that crosses your body first has to constantly switch this is the very thing that defines a weave as an odd number of beats
because if it is five beat your leading hand should change every time you change side. if it is an eveb bt cork screw one of your hands will always change sides first and the other will always follow and so isnt semetrical
i would sugest that when you do a lead down with your right hand one of the sides is a 6bt and the other side is a 3bt thus giving you a 5tbs on each side over all tho this is verv hard to tell cos of the wierd arm movments required to do multipule beat corks crews
also you say
this is not true it is exactily the same as the pricaple for a weave it is jst that it is very wierd hand positions unless you use wraps. if the top and botom poi movements are semetrical and your hand movments are semetcmical your will have odd number corkscrew eg. if you do a 4bt movment on each side you will have a 5bt cork screw
its only an illusion take a CW windmill (poi go up on left of body, down on right). picture some else doing the windmill left hand leading eccept you are not standing infront of them you a standing directly to there right looking at them. in a standard 2 bt windmill there right hand will be closest to you and the left will be over the other side of your head but to your eyes there arms will still cross. this is exactily the same if there right hand is leading except there left hand will now be closest to you. this is the same as simply changing the hand that is on top when you are doing a standard 2bt weave.
whewww that is confusing sorri for the bit of a lecture
Seb
Written by: Rev
so we are left with no 3bt weave with the right hand leading left and the left hand I'leading right.. unless m missing something.. whihc is possible because I'm not thinking clearly at the moment..
you would be right there becase it is a odd number beat weave the poi that crosses your body first has to constantly switch this is the very thing that defines a weave as an odd number of beats
Written by: Rev
I can do a 5bt CW corkscrew with the left hand leading down OR the right hand leading down.. and get symetrically equivalent weaves.. both 5bt.. both CW... kinda like our symetrically quivalent 4bt weaves..
because if it is five beat your leading hand should change every time you change side. if it is an eveb bt cork screw one of your hands will always change sides first and the other will always follow and so isnt semetrical
i would sugest that when you do a lead down with your right hand one of the sides is a 6bt and the other side is a 3bt thus giving you a 5tbs on each side over all tho this is verv hard to tell cos of the wierd arm movments required to do multipule beat corks crews
also you say
Written by: Rev
I guess a 5bt corkscrew isnt two 4bt corks, like a 5bt weave is two 4bt weaves.. I'm guessing a 6bt corkscrew is two 5bt corks.. and a 4bt cork is two 3bt corks...
this is not true it is exactily the same as the pricaple for a weave it is jst that it is very wierd hand positions unless you use wraps. if the top and botom poi movements are semetrical and your hand movments are semetcmical your will have odd number corkscrew eg. if you do a 4bt movment on each side you will have a 5bt cork screw
Written by: Rev
if you do a CCW 2bt corkscrew.. the right hand leads and the hands stay seperate (normal 2bt weaveage).. if you do a CCW left hand led 2bt corkscrew.. the poi have to enter into a 1rst degree crossover.. in other words.. you have to put the right hand on the left side and the left hand on the right side in order to do it.. but that result is like the 3bt alts, above.. why? because you can do a 2bt CCW cork with the left hand leading and the left hand either over the right hand the whole time or under the right hand the whole time..
its only an illusion take a CW windmill (poi go up on left of body, down on right). picture some else doing the windmill left hand leading eccept you are not standing infront of them you a standing directly to there right looking at them. in a standard 2 bt windmill there right hand will be closest to you and the left will be over the other side of your head but to your eyes there arms will still cross. this is exactily the same if there right hand is leading except there left hand will now be closest to you. this is the same as simply changing the hand that is on top when you are doing a standard 2bt weave.
whewww that is confusing sorri for the bit of a lecture
Seb
There is nothing quite like standing on your head.....
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Posted:
sorry to cut you off man,... but no... please read what I posted.. and try it.. (please understand typed words dont carry emphasis properly.. so things may read harsh, but arent intended that way.. I thought I give fair warning since you dont have many posts and probably havent been exposed to rev rants and lectures much)
point 1-
I don't think you follow what I'm saying at all.. when doing a corkscrew the 6bt cork is two 5bts... and the the 4bt is two 3bts.. the reason being that when you do an odd beat corkscrew you ahve to do a higher beat twist at the top OR at the bottom to make the odd beat and the alternate lead hands...
thus to get the higher beat same hand corkscrew you have to take the extra twist for one 5bt (the top) and the extra twist of the other 5bt (bottom) to get the 6bt..
unlike the weave which is naturally odd beat.. because of the cross arm.. and thus two 4bt weaves make a 5bt weave... because the extra twist from each different led 4bt makes the 5bt..
sorry man..
point 2-
go back and reread the section you are trying to rebutt against.. I am doing 6bts of twist at the top and 4bts of untwist at the bottom.. (or vice versus) in order to get a 5bt.,.. I don't know where this 6 and 3bt stuff your on about is coming from..
5bts corks are easy... jsut lean sidewas and do a 5bt weave.. and you'll see real quick how easy a 5bt corkscrew is.. and if you lean right you get one 5bt cork and if you lean left you get a different 5bt corkscrew... both are easy.. one uses extra twist at the top and one at the bottom.. put tose twists together like I said above and you get the 6bt...
point 3-
\the 2bt stuff..
stop doing windmills.. you cant see the whole thing during a windmill and that's where you are getting confused.. do your 2bt corkscrew whihcever way you want.. and then do it again the same way with the other hand leading.. you HAVE to cross your arms to the other side.. the poi have to be on those sides because of the direction of the poi and the direction it has to move.. thus when you cross the hand to the other side you can cross it over or under and hold that ... we're talking a 2bt here.. so your hands don't have to do anything but move up and down, bobbing like you would a butterfly.. and the point I'm making is that the you can only have the hands on their natural side, side by side with one hand leading.. in order to get the other hand to lead.. you flip them.. and then have the choice of putting over or under.. (or closer or further if you want to stick with windmills, but its obviously confusing you... )
thanks for reading and trying to help.. but I'm afraid the lecutre is all on this end man..
sorry to cut you off man,... but no... please read what I posted.. and try it.. (please understand typed words dont carry emphasis properly.. so things may read harsh, but arent intended that way.. I thought I give fair warning since you dont have many posts and probably havent been exposed to rev rants and lectures much)
point 1-
Written by:
this is not true it is exactily the same as the pricaple for a weave it is jst that it is very wierd hand positions unless you use wraps. if the top and botom poi movements are semetrical and your hand movments are semetcmical your will have odd number corkscrew eg. if you do a 4bt movment on each side you will have a 5bt cork screw
I don't think you follow what I'm saying at all.. when doing a corkscrew the 6bt cork is two 5bts... and the the 4bt is two 3bts.. the reason being that when you do an odd beat corkscrew you ahve to do a higher beat twist at the top OR at the bottom to make the odd beat and the alternate lead hands...
thus to get the higher beat same hand corkscrew you have to take the extra twist for one 5bt (the top) and the extra twist of the other 5bt (bottom) to get the 6bt..
unlike the weave which is naturally odd beat.. because of the cross arm.. and thus two 4bt weaves make a 5bt weave... because the extra twist from each different led 4bt makes the 5bt..
sorry man..
point 2-
Written by:
because if it is five beat your leading hand should change every time you change side. if it is an eveb bt cork screw one of your hands will always change sides first and the other will always follow and so isnt semetrical
i would sugest that when you do a lead down with your right hand one of the sides is a 6bt and the other side is a 3bt thus giving you a 5tbs on each side over all tho this is verv hard to tell cos of the wierd arm movments required to do multipule beat corks crews
go back and reread the section you are trying to rebutt against.. I am doing 6bts of twist at the top and 4bts of untwist at the bottom.. (or vice versus) in order to get a 5bt.,.. I don't know where this 6 and 3bt stuff your on about is coming from..
5bts corks are easy... jsut lean sidewas and do a 5bt weave.. and you'll see real quick how easy a 5bt corkscrew is.. and if you lean right you get one 5bt cork and if you lean left you get a different 5bt corkscrew... both are easy.. one uses extra twist at the top and one at the bottom.. put tose twists together like I said above and you get the 6bt...
point 3-
\the 2bt stuff..
stop doing windmills.. you cant see the whole thing during a windmill and that's where you are getting confused.. do your 2bt corkscrew whihcever way you want.. and then do it again the same way with the other hand leading.. you HAVE to cross your arms to the other side.. the poi have to be on those sides because of the direction of the poi and the direction it has to move.. thus when you cross the hand to the other side you can cross it over or under and hold that ... we're talking a 2bt here.. so your hands don't have to do anything but move up and down, bobbing like you would a butterfly.. and the point I'm making is that the you can only have the hands on their natural side, side by side with one hand leading.. in order to get the other hand to lead.. you flip them.. and then have the choice of putting over or under.. (or closer or further if you want to stick with windmills, but its obviously confusing you... )
thanks for reading and trying to help.. but I'm afraid the lecutre is all on this end man..
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Posted:
ah, worked it out all by yourself again then rev - well done
cole. x
ah, worked it out all by yourself again then rev - well done
cole. x
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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
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Posted:
typing things out.. helps me work things out..
and apprently I did more to confuse everyone else in working it out..
which leaves me with the question- what the hell was everyone else on about?
I can only think that maybe when I said the two different lead hand corks going the same direction, that they took that as the weave based corks (ala same direction) and not as in the same actual direction type same direction..
and I think I either offended or scared seb off.. I really hope not.. he followed one of my rants.. and that takes some talent.. patience.. excedrin.. and perhaps some other things that are best not mentioned here...
ahh well.. at least I figured it out in the end.. and if we're lucky those involved in this thread wont need much therapy to be reintroduced into society..
oh yeah.. and I forgt to insert wallplanes in there.. front and back wallplanes are crosshanded.. so they should be odd beat.. whihc explains why I got the 5bt btb no problem but 6 is hurting me.. and outer and inner plane wallplanes are obviously part of the even handed stuff above..
typing things out.. helps me work things out..
and apprently I did more to confuse everyone else in working it out..
which leaves me with the question- what the hell was everyone else on about?
I can only think that maybe when I said the two different lead hand corks going the same direction, that they took that as the weave based corks (ala same direction) and not as in the same actual direction type same direction..
and I think I either offended or scared seb off.. I really hope not.. he followed one of my rants.. and that takes some talent.. patience.. excedrin.. and perhaps some other things that are best not mentioned here...
ahh well.. at least I figured it out in the end.. and if we're lucky those involved in this thread wont need much therapy to be reintroduced into society..
oh yeah.. and I forgt to insert wallplanes in there.. front and back wallplanes are crosshanded.. so they should be odd beat.. whihc explains why I got the 5bt btb no problem but 6 is hurting me.. and outer and inner plane wallplanes are obviously part of the even handed stuff above..
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
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big and good and broken
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Posted:
wtf does that mean - i'm, sorry if i'm being ignorant but that last sentence is pretty much incomprehensible to me rev!
what exactly is the difference between 'same direction' and 'actual direction type same direction'?
and what does "front and back wallplanes are crosshanded.. so they should be odd beat.." actually mean?
i'm not sure that any of what i said applies any more since your way of thinking about weaves is obviously quite different to mine (i think in terms of 2bt weaves and use extra circles, offsets and crossover points to describe all the other weaves), but i hope it wasn't completely irrelevant...
cole. x
Written by: Rev
I can only think that maybe when I said the two different lead hand corks going the same direction, that they took that as the weave based corks (ala same direction) and not as in the same actual direction type same direction..
wtf does that mean - i'm, sorry if i'm being ignorant but that last sentence is pretty much incomprehensible to me rev!
what exactly is the difference between 'same direction' and 'actual direction type same direction'?
and what does "front and back wallplanes are crosshanded.. so they should be odd beat.." actually mean?
i'm not sure that any of what i said applies any more since your way of thinking about weaves is obviously quite different to mine (i think in terms of 2bt weaves and use extra circles, offsets and crossover points to describe all the other weaves), but i hope it wasn't completely irrelevant...
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
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Posted:
It occured to me that some people were confusing my request for different lead hands on the same diirection corkscrew as meaning:
right hand led CW cork and left hand leads CCW and I couldnt do one or the other.. as in these are the two 4bt same direction corks.. and thus are the two different hand led corks.. thus using samedirection to mean weave based cork and not butterfly based cork..
what I meant in this discussion was the two different hand led same direction corks as in just going clockwise, lead right hand or lead left hand.. and just going counter clockwise lead right hand or left hand.. thus meaning same direction as in going the same direction.... as in not just the fact that its weave based same direction but as in without changing anything about what you are doing other than the lead hand same direction..
wallplane weaves that go between the front and rear wallplanes are just normal side to side (ala crosshanded) weaves that are turned a different way... whihc means they are still crosshanded because you have one hand that has to reach across.. the fact that they are done wallplane doesnt change the fact that they are crosshanded.. the wallplane aspect just makes it harder to reach the "far side" whihc would be the back side.. so its like doing a normal side to side weave with a shorter crossside arm... whihc is why its easy to do odd beat wallplanes.. because they should be odd beat like the weave.. and not even beat like even handed moves...
whihc is different to a outer and inner plane wallplane which is just like a cork and a windmill.. and actually is even handed.. and thus is even beated..
:takes some excedrin:
actualyl cole I'd have to go back and reread, but I didnt see you as being far off at al.. I saw you being right on the money with what I was saying... kinda.. and for the most part.. you were confused because you understood what I was saying about there being only one way to do certain patterns, unless you resorted to an offset.... so you didnt realy understand what I was getting at.. and I think maybe thought I was trying to get offset stuff? I don' remember.. I reread that post about an hour or two ago.. and then have read and done other things.. so I don't remember what all was saiid.. but I do remember you being right on with some of the stuff and more confused about what I was getting at..
and something about corks only having one dimension so you have to turn the other direction to get the other lead hand.. whihc I suppose is what I'm saying but definately a different take on it..
I dunno.. I'll have to have a reread and edit this.. lest I just be rambling incoherent as usual
edit: so yeah.. you basically said I need to go the other direction to lead with the other hand.. that it couldnt be done both ahnds same direction.. whihc is the conclusion that I came to a bit differently with added features.. ala the offset nonsense.. and the even beat even handed 'weave' being equivalent to the odd beat cross handed weave in terms of being natural and only one way to do it without resorting to offsets..
EDITED_BY: Rev (1119633842)
Written by: colemanWritten by: Rev
I can only think that maybe when I said the two different lead hand corks going the same direction, that they took that as the weave based corks (ala same direction) and not as in the same actual direction type same direction..
wtf does that mean - i'm, sorry if i'm being ignorant but that last sentence is pretty much incomprehensible to me rev!
what exactly is the difference between 'same direction' and 'actual direction type same direction'?
It occured to me that some people were confusing my request for different lead hands on the same diirection corkscrew as meaning:
right hand led CW cork and left hand leads CCW and I couldnt do one or the other.. as in these are the two 4bt same direction corks.. and thus are the two different hand led corks.. thus using samedirection to mean weave based cork and not butterfly based cork..
what I meant in this discussion was the two different hand led same direction corks as in just going clockwise, lead right hand or lead left hand.. and just going counter clockwise lead right hand or left hand.. thus meaning same direction as in going the same direction.... as in not just the fact that its weave based same direction but as in without changing anything about what you are doing other than the lead hand same direction..
Written by: coleman
and what does "front and back wallplanes are crosshanded.. so they should be odd beat.." actually mean?
wallplane weaves that go between the front and rear wallplanes are just normal side to side (ala crosshanded) weaves that are turned a different way... whihc means they are still crosshanded because you have one hand that has to reach across.. the fact that they are done wallplane doesnt change the fact that they are crosshanded.. the wallplane aspect just makes it harder to reach the "far side" whihc would be the back side.. so its like doing a normal side to side weave with a shorter crossside arm... whihc is why its easy to do odd beat wallplanes.. because they should be odd beat like the weave.. and not even beat like even handed moves...
whihc is different to a outer and inner plane wallplane which is just like a cork and a windmill.. and actually is even handed.. and thus is even beated..
:takes some excedrin:
Written by:
i'm not sure that any of what i said applies any more since your way of thinking about weaves is obviously quite different to mine (i think in terms of 2bt weaves and use extra circles, offsets and crossover points to describe all the other weaves), but i hope it wasn't completely irrelevant...
cole. x
actualyl cole I'd have to go back and reread, but I didnt see you as being far off at al.. I saw you being right on the money with what I was saying... kinda.. and for the most part..
you were confused because you understood what I was saying about there being only one way to do certain patterns, unless you resorted to an offset.... so you didnt realy understand what I was getting at.. and I think maybe thought I was trying to get offset stuff? I don' remember.. I reread that post about an hour or two ago.. and then have read and done other things.. so I don't remember what all was saiid.. but I do remember you being right on with some of the stuff and more confused about what I was getting at.. and something about corks only having one dimension so you have to turn the other direction to get the other lead hand.. whihc I suppose is what I'm saying but definately a different take on it..
I dunno.. I'll have to have a reread and edit this.. lest I just be rambling incoherent as usual
edit: so yeah.. you basically said I need to go the other direction to lead with the other hand.. that it couldnt be done both ahnds same direction.. whihc is the conclusion that I came to a bit differently with added features.. ala the offset nonsense.. and the even beat even handed 'weave' being equivalent to the odd beat cross handed weave in terms of being natural and only one way to do it without resorting to offsets..
EDITED_BY: Rev (1119633842)
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big and good and broken
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Posted:
i wasn't confused by that mate!
that's what i was trying to explain when i said:
what confused me is that after that post, you typed a whole load of stuff that used language i don't use/need to use to get to exactly the same outcome.
dunno, maybe i'm turning into arashi in me old age...
cole. x
Written by: Rev
you were confused because you understood what I was saying about there being only one way to do certain patterns, unless you resorted to an offset.... so you didnt realy understand what I was getting at.. and I think maybe thought I was trying to get offset stuff?
i wasn't confused by that mate!
that's what i was trying to explain when i said:
Written by: coleman
the difference is the plane orientation to your arms - ceiling plane messes with it a bit since there is a different kind of 'own side' for a hand - there are less levels of crossover symmetry.
to get symmetry in even beat weaves in this plane orientation, you need to completely mirror the move.
so whereas in wheelplane there are two levels of symmetry (leading hand symmetry and poi direction symmetry) in the ceiling plane there is only one level (poi direction and leading hand are coupled to give only one level - they both must be reversed if you want the move to be fully equivalent).
what confused me is that after that post, you typed a whole load of stuff that used language i don't use/need to use to get to exactly the same outcome.
dunno, maybe i'm turning into arashi in me old age...
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
member
32 posts
Location: Bucks
32 posts
Location: Bucks
Posted:
na you cant scare me off that ealsy just havent had the time to use a computer since tue im glad that you have worked out what ever you were trying to work out.
Seb
na you cant scare me off that ealsy just havent had the time to use a computer since tue im glad that you have worked out what ever you were trying to work out.
Seb
There is nothing quite like standing on your head.....
BRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
Posted:
T oget over my previous arogant post (deleted).
Coleman wrote:
Ther are two levels of symmetry (leading hand symmetry and poi direction symmetry)
I gree to get symetry into leading hand trick is to mirror the move.
Poi dirrection symmetry is shortly connecter with leading symetry, for
example:
BF cross-over have direction symmetry but not leading symmetry.
BF symmetrical move.
Weave symetrical move
Cross follow have not leadaing symmetry and how about dirrectional
symmetry, can someone explain more ?
Edit:
a] Symmetry versus planes.
b] Symmetry versus dirrections.
:R
EDITED_BY: Richee (1119713730)
T oget over my previous arogant post (deleted).
Coleman wrote:
Ther are two levels of symmetry (leading hand symmetry and poi direction symmetry)
I gree to get symetry into leading hand trick is to mirror the move.
Poi dirrection symmetry is shortly connecter with leading symetry, for
example:
BF cross-over have direction symmetry but not leading symmetry.
BF symmetrical move.
Weave symetrical move
Cross follow have not leadaing symmetry and how about dirrectional
symmetry, can someone explain more ?
Edit:
a] Symmetry versus planes.
b] Symmetry versus dirrections.
:R
EDITED_BY: Richee (1119713730)
POI THEO(R)IST
BRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Posted:
well see I dont' agree with cole's leading hand symmetry vs poi direction symmetry...
I mean he came to a same yet different conclusion than I did..
I agre with him in that yes.. you have to go the other direction to get the other hand to lead a 4bt cork.. and thus mak it symmetrical (without resorting to offsets..)
however I disagree because if there was only direction symmetry than you wouldnt have 4 5bt corks (2 ways each direction.. all 4 ways symmetrical with each other..)
whihc is why I went into the long complicated thing about with crosshanded moves.. there is no symmetry for the odd beat moves (barring offsets) you ahve to go the other direction (whihc itself on becomes apparent if you do it wallplane where you can get both directions facing the same way.. [otherwise you get right leading left and left leading right both directions.. but if you do it wallplaned you can see that there is a difference in whihc hand leads to which side based on direction..]) it also highlights that wallplane weaves are just like sideplaned weaves, and thus crosshanded and odd beat.. (barring the outer to inner plane weaves which is the equivalent of a watermill.. )
but al the even beat weaves have lead hand symetry..
This is the EXACT same schema we see with the even handed moves.. only even handed moves have no symmetry with lead hand on even beat patterns, only directional symmetry.. and they exhibit both lead hand and directional symmetry on odd beat patterns..
do you follow that cole? both have directional symmetry.. I mean hell all our moves do.. but only a smaller class of moves within that exhibit leading hand symmetry.. but there's leading hand symmetry in all divisions of patterns.. just not neccessarily in all patterns..
so my end rant was actually saying a little bit different than what you said..
richee-
where to begin...
butterfly stuff is easy to talk about.. its like buzzsaw stuff.. it exhibits full symmetry.. both direction, and leading hand.. because you can lead either hand either direction.. every butterfly pattern can be done 4 ways.. with respect to the two variables (hand and direction), so that's fully symmetrical..
hopefully my little rant above helps you see the crosshanded leading hand symmetry (which it can have) and direction symmetry (which I'm not sure why we brought up.. because direction symmetry is inherent in everything.. I mean I might be missing something, but I'm pretty positive ever pattern has a reverse)
as far as symmetry versus planes.. that's a whole different beast.. 2bt weave excluded (because its a borderline case that is really too geeky to discuss..) plane symmetry is prety much the inverse of lead hand symmetry... which is to say that if you have lead hand symmetry you don't have plane symmetry... 4bt weaves are not planar symmetrical, but 5bt weaves are.. 5bt corks are not plane symmetrical, but 4bt corks are..
well see I dont' agree with cole's leading hand symmetry vs poi direction symmetry...
I mean he came to a same yet different conclusion than I did..
I agre with him in that yes.. you have to go the other direction to get the other hand to lead a 4bt cork.. and thus mak it symmetrical (without resorting to offsets..)
however I disagree because if there was only direction symmetry than you wouldnt have 4 5bt corks (2 ways each direction.. all 4 ways symmetrical with each other..)
whihc is why I went into the long complicated thing about with crosshanded moves.. there is no symmetry for the odd beat moves (barring offsets) you ahve to go the other direction (whihc itself on becomes apparent if you do it wallplane where you can get both directions facing the same way.. [otherwise you get right leading left and left leading right both directions.. but if you do it wallplaned you can see that there is a difference in whihc hand leads to which side based on direction..]) it also highlights that wallplane weaves are just like sideplaned weaves, and thus crosshanded and odd beat.. (barring the outer to inner plane weaves which is the equivalent of a watermill.. )
but al the even beat weaves have lead hand symetry..
This is the EXACT same schema we see with the even handed moves.. only even handed moves have no symmetry with lead hand on even beat patterns, only directional symmetry.. and they exhibit both lead hand and directional symmetry on odd beat patterns..
do you follow that cole? both have directional symmetry.. I mean hell all our moves do.. but only a smaller class of moves within that exhibit leading hand symmetry.. but there's leading hand symmetry in all divisions of patterns.. just not neccessarily in all patterns..
so my end rant was actually saying a little bit different than what you said..
richee-
where to begin...
butterfly stuff is easy to talk about.. its like buzzsaw stuff.. it exhibits full symmetry.. both direction, and leading hand.. because you can lead either hand either direction.. every butterfly pattern can be done 4 ways.. with respect to the two variables (hand and direction), so that's fully symmetrical..
hopefully my little rant above helps you see the crosshanded leading hand symmetry (which it can have) and direction symmetry (which I'm not sure why we brought up.. because direction symmetry is inherent in everything.. I mean I might be missing something, but I'm pretty positive ever pattern has a reverse)
as far as symmetry versus planes.. that's a whole different beast.. 2bt weave excluded (because its a borderline case that is really too geeky to discuss..) plane symmetry is prety much the inverse of lead hand symmetry... which is to say that if you have lead hand symmetry you don't have plane symmetry... 4bt weaves are not planar symmetrical, but 5bt weaves are.. 5bt corks are not plane symmetrical, but 4bt corks are..
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Edited to clarify:
Rev, I think I get what u are saying. Like for waist wraps going to the right, I lead with my right.
When I lead with my left hand (starting on the left side, then going right) the ww becomes inverted. If I lead with left, and start the circle on my right side, with my left hand, the it becomes a three beat weave. As in the Diana’s video – under first, to start a three beat weave, then it’s over under out.
With two beat moves you have a “carry or pass” otherwise it becomes a three beat move. Which is not a problem, just a distinction.
I have much trouble with the 4-beat reverse ww, without turning, but to learn windmills both ways, just turn.
Counting helps, and for what it’s worth. I used to play a game called “who’s on top?” Like which hand is on top, from the old baseball comedy routine - who’s on first?
EDITED_BY: Stone (1119752500)
Edited to clarify:
Written by:
Most everyone only does one hand one direction and the other hand the other direction. why?
Rev, I think I get what u are saying. Like for waist wraps going to the right, I lead with my right.
When I lead with my left hand (starting on the left side, then going right) the ww becomes inverted. If I lead with left, and start the circle on my right side, with my left hand, the it becomes a three beat weave. As in the Diana’s video – under first, to start a three beat weave, then it’s over under out.
With two beat moves you have a “carry or pass” otherwise it becomes a three beat move. Which is not a problem, just a distinction.
I have much trouble with the 4-beat reverse ww, without turning, but to learn windmills both ways, just turn.
Counting helps, and for what it’s worth. I used to play a game called “who’s on top?” Like which hand is on top, from the old baseball comedy routine - who’s on first?
EDITED_BY: Stone (1119752500)
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
do you do your 5bt corkscrew in exactly the same body-plane orientation as all the rest of your corks or do you bend?
if you can do odd beat, horizontal weaves standing up straight (rather than 'wheelplane on its side'), and get all four to have both direction and lead hand symmetry, then i understand that you have something i don't - not only in theory but in practice because i can't spin these moves.
do i follow? i reckon so, but i don't get why you need all these extra terms - i just look at plane orientation to arm/body orientation and it all just falls out of that.
i obviously don't think in the same terms as you do on this one rev so unless i'm missing some vital predictive part of your theory, i don't see what thinking in the same way as you are will tell me that my current way of thinking doesn't (in less words )
but to be fair, it makes very little difference cos i don't like horizontal spinning at the best of times...
cole. x
Written by: Rev
well see I dont' agree with cole's leading hand symmetry vs poi direction symmetry...
I mean he came to a same yet different conclusion than I did..
I agre with him in that yes.. you have to go the other direction to get the other hand to lead a 4bt cork.. and thus mak it symmetrical (without resorting to offsets..)
however I disagree because if there was only direction symmetry than you wouldnt have 4 5bt corks (2 ways each direction.. all 4 ways symmetrical with each other..)
do you do your 5bt corkscrew in exactly the same body-plane orientation as all the rest of your corks or do you bend?
if you can do odd beat, horizontal weaves standing up straight (rather than 'wheelplane on its side'), and get all four to have both direction and lead hand symmetry, then i understand that you have something i don't - not only in theory but in practice because i can't spin these moves.
Written by: Rev
[...snip...]
do you follow that cole? both have directional symmetry.. I mean hell all our moves do.. but only a smaller class of moves within that exhibit leading hand symmetry.. but there's leading hand symmetry in all divisions of patterns.. just not neccessarily in all patterns..
so my end rant was actually saying a little bit different than what you said..
do i follow? i reckon so, but i don't get why you need all these extra terms - i just look at plane orientation to arm/body orientation and it all just falls out of that.
i obviously don't think in the same terms as you do on this one rev so unless i'm missing some vital predictive part of your theory, i don't see what thinking in the same way as you are will tell me that my current way of thinking doesn't (in less words
) but to be fair, it makes very little difference cos i don't like horizontal spinning at the best of times...
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
BRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Posted:
cole-
yes I get my 5bt in the same horizontal plane as the rest of them.. is it always as neat as my 4bt.. not always.. but most of the time.. lean a little to the side and it helps you learn te motion.. and you slowly keep moving that motion into a tighter and tighter more centered pattern..
(redreading your snippet I need to add) I dont bend at even when my 5bt corks are done sloppy..when they are sloppy they are a little left or right of center.. like the center line might be closer to my shoulder than my neck.. never past my shoulder, never leaned over..
on the other I wasnt asking you to think in different terms. I'm still not sure where I'm using different terms (to discuss the same thing).. because I don't see where what you were saying applies the same.. because you said that corks dont have lead hand symmetry.. and they do.. some of them.. opposite to the weave lead hand symmetry.. so I don't see that as being different terms but different altogether.. I think this comes out of how you do your 5bt cork though.. judging from the recent reply..
I realize after reading your reply that my use of the phrase "do you follow that cole" came off not as intended.. I didnt mean that in a rude way.. and I apologize for any offense you took..
cole-
yes I get my 5bt in the same horizontal plane as the rest of them.. is it always as neat as my 4bt.. not always.. but most of the time.. lean a little to the side and it helps you learn te motion.. and you slowly keep moving that motion into a tighter and tighter more centered pattern..
(redreading your snippet I need to add) I dont bend at even when my 5bt corks are done sloppy..when they are sloppy they are a little left or right of center.. like the center line might be closer to my shoulder than my neck.. never past my shoulder, never leaned over..
on the other I wasnt asking you to think in different terms. I'm still not sure where I'm using different terms (to discuss the same thing).. because I don't see where what you were saying applies the same.. because you said that corks dont have lead hand symmetry.. and they do.. some of them.. opposite to the weave lead hand symmetry.. so I don't see that as being different terms but different altogether.. I think this comes out of how you do your 5bt cork though.. judging from the recent reply..
I realize after reading your reply that my use of the phrase "do you follow that cole" came off not as intended.. I didnt mean that in a rude way.. and I apologize for any offense you took..
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
it must be the differences in our 5bt corks then i guess dude.
the only way i can get 5bt weave motions to work in that plane is with a different arm orientation - i have to point my elbows to one side or the other, whereas all my even beat corks have elbows pointing down throughout.
i think this discussion will only serve to make me even less fond of horizontal poi than i already am...
cole. x
it must be the differences in our 5bt corks then i guess dude.
the only way i can get 5bt weave motions to work in that plane is with a different arm orientation - i have to point my elbows to one side or the other, whereas all my even beat corks have elbows pointing down throughout.
i think this discussion will only serve to make me even less fond of horizontal poi than i already am...
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
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