Forums > Social Discussion > war and peace
Login/Join to ParticipateSILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
a few nights ago my dad got the following poem in an e-mail;
T'WAS THE NIGHT BEFORE CHRISTMAS,
HE LIVED ALL ALONE,
IN A ONE BEDROOM HOUSE, MADE OF PLASTER AND STONE.
I HAD COME DOWN THE CHIMNEY, WITH PRESENTS TO GIVE,
AND TO SEE JUST WHO, IN THIS HOME, DID LIVE.
I LOOKED ALL ABOUT, A STRANGE SIGHT I DID SEE,
NO TINSEL, NO PRESENTS, NOT EVEN A TREE.
NO STOCKING BY MANTLE, JUST BOOTS FILLED WITH SAND,
ON THE WALL HUNG PICTURES, OF FAR DISTANT LANDS.
WITH MEDALS AND BADGES, AWARDS OF ALL KINDS,
A SOBER THOUGHT, CAME THROUGH MY MIND.
FOR THIS HOUSE WAS DIFFERENT, IT WAS DARK AND DREARY,
I FOUND THE HOME OF A SOLDIER, ONCE I COULD SEE CLEARLY.
THE SOLDIER LAY SLEEPING, SILENT, ALONE,
CURLED UP ON THE FLOOR, IN THIS ONE BEDROOM HOME.
THE FACE WAS SO GENTLE, THE ROOM IN SUCH DISORDER,
NOT HOW I PICTURED, AN AUSTRALIAN SOLDIER.
WAS THIS THE HERO, OF WHOM I'D JUST READ?
CURLED UP ON A PONCHO, THE FLOOR FOR A BED?
I REALIZED THE FAMILIES, THAT I SAW THIS NIGHT,
OWED THEIR LIVES TO THESE SOLDIERS,
WHO WERE WILLING TO FIGHT.
SOON ROUND THE WORLD, THE CHILDREN WOULD PLAY,
AND GROWNUPS WOULD CELEBRATE, A BRIGHT CHRISTMAS DAY.
THEY ALL ENJOYED FREEDOM, EACH MONTH OF THE YEAR,
BECAUSE OF THE SOLDIERS, LIKE THE ONE LYING HERE.
I COULDN'T HELP WONDER, HOW MANY LAY ALONE,
ON A COLD CHRISTMAS EVE, IN A LAND FAR FROM HOME.
THE VERY THOUGHT BROUGHT, A TEAR TO MY EYE,
I DROPPED TO MY KNEES, AND STARTED TO CRY.
THE SOLDIER AWAKENED, AND I HEARD A ROUGH VOICE,
"SANTA DON'T CRY, THIS LIFE IS MY CHOICE;
I FIGHT FOR FREEDOM, I DON'T ASK FOR MORE,
MY LIFE IS MY GOD, MY COUNTRY, MY CORPS."
THE SOLDIER ROLLED OVER, AND DRIFTED TO SLEEP,
I COULDN'T CONTROL IT, I CONTINUED TO WEEP.
I KEPT WATCH FOR HOURS, SO SILENT AND STILL,
AND WE BOTH SHIVERED, FROM THE COLD NIGHT'S CHILL.
I DIDN'T WANT TO LEAVE, ON THAT COLD, DARK, NIGHT,
THIS GUARDIAN OF HONOR, SO WILLING TO FIGHT.
THEN THE SOLDIER ROLLED OVER, WITH A VOICE SOFT AND PURE,
WHISPERED, "CARRY ON SANTA, IT'S CHRISTMAS DAY, ALL IS SECURE."
ONE LOOK AT MY WATCH, AND I KNEW HE WAS RIGHT.
"MERRY CHRISTMAS MY FRIEND, AND TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT."
This poem was written by an Australian Peacekeeping soldier stationed overseas.
when i read it i was moved in some wierd way. but then i just started to think about the lines "willing to fight" and "i fight for freedom" and couldn't help worring. the very people that are willing to fight could also be the ones causing the problems couldnt they? if everyone were to say no, fighting will bring uneccisary death, then wouldn't there be o reason or need to fight. he very stereotype that is willing to fight for right could be the flipside stereotype to the ones that will fight for wrong, with different values seperating them.
and i have never been able to understand when people try to start a fight for freedom with bullets(and i'm not talking retaliation from opression). it just reminds me of a saying by micheal franti
"maybe with every shell fired, bomb detonated, economy destroyed, family member killed, we are not creating good will and harmoney but simply another generation of children who believe violence is the only was to bring change"
it worries me, tis all
a few nights ago my dad got the following poem in an e-mail;
T'WAS THE NIGHT BEFORE CHRISTMAS,
HE LIVED ALL ALONE,
IN A ONE BEDROOM HOUSE, MADE OF PLASTER AND STONE.
I HAD COME DOWN THE CHIMNEY, WITH PRESENTS TO GIVE,
AND TO SEE JUST WHO, IN THIS HOME, DID LIVE.
I LOOKED ALL ABOUT, A STRANGE SIGHT I DID SEE,
NO TINSEL, NO PRESENTS, NOT EVEN A TREE.
NO STOCKING BY MANTLE, JUST BOOTS FILLED WITH SAND,
ON THE WALL HUNG PICTURES, OF FAR DISTANT LANDS.
WITH MEDALS AND BADGES, AWARDS OF ALL KINDS,
A SOBER THOUGHT, CAME THROUGH MY MIND.
FOR THIS HOUSE WAS DIFFERENT, IT WAS DARK AND DREARY,
I FOUND THE HOME OF A SOLDIER, ONCE I COULD SEE CLEARLY.
THE SOLDIER LAY SLEEPING, SILENT, ALONE,
CURLED UP ON THE FLOOR, IN THIS ONE BEDROOM HOME.
THE FACE WAS SO GENTLE, THE ROOM IN SUCH DISORDER,
NOT HOW I PICTURED, AN AUSTRALIAN SOLDIER.
WAS THIS THE HERO, OF WHOM I'D JUST READ?
CURLED UP ON A PONCHO, THE FLOOR FOR A BED?
I REALIZED THE FAMILIES, THAT I SAW THIS NIGHT,
OWED THEIR LIVES TO THESE SOLDIERS,
WHO WERE WILLING TO FIGHT.
SOON ROUND THE WORLD, THE CHILDREN WOULD PLAY,
AND GROWNUPS WOULD CELEBRATE, A BRIGHT CHRISTMAS DAY.
THEY ALL ENJOYED FREEDOM, EACH MONTH OF THE YEAR,
BECAUSE OF THE SOLDIERS, LIKE THE ONE LYING HERE.
I COULDN'T HELP WONDER, HOW MANY LAY ALONE,
ON A COLD CHRISTMAS EVE, IN A LAND FAR FROM HOME.
THE VERY THOUGHT BROUGHT, A TEAR TO MY EYE,
I DROPPED TO MY KNEES, AND STARTED TO CRY.
THE SOLDIER AWAKENED, AND I HEARD A ROUGH VOICE,
"SANTA DON'T CRY, THIS LIFE IS MY CHOICE;
I FIGHT FOR FREEDOM, I DON'T ASK FOR MORE,
MY LIFE IS MY GOD, MY COUNTRY, MY CORPS."
THE SOLDIER ROLLED OVER, AND DRIFTED TO SLEEP,
I COULDN'T CONTROL IT, I CONTINUED TO WEEP.
I KEPT WATCH FOR HOURS, SO SILENT AND STILL,
AND WE BOTH SHIVERED, FROM THE COLD NIGHT'S CHILL.
I DIDN'T WANT TO LEAVE, ON THAT COLD, DARK, NIGHT,
THIS GUARDIAN OF HONOR, SO WILLING TO FIGHT.
THEN THE SOLDIER ROLLED OVER, WITH A VOICE SOFT AND PURE,
WHISPERED, "CARRY ON SANTA, IT'S CHRISTMAS DAY, ALL IS SECURE."
ONE LOOK AT MY WATCH, AND I KNEW HE WAS RIGHT.
"MERRY CHRISTMAS MY FRIEND, AND TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT."
This poem was written by an Australian Peacekeeping soldier stationed overseas.
when i read it i was moved in some wierd way. but then i just started to think about the lines "willing to fight" and "i fight for freedom" and couldn't help worring. the very people that are willing to fight could also be the ones causing the problems couldnt they? if everyone were to say no, fighting will bring uneccisary death, then wouldn't there be o reason or need to fight. he very stereotype that is willing to fight for right could be the flipside stereotype to the ones that will fight for wrong, with different values seperating them.
and i have never been able to understand when people try to start a fight for freedom with bullets(and i'm not talking retaliation from opression). it just reminds me of a saying by micheal franti
"maybe with every shell fired, bomb detonated, economy destroyed, family member killed, we are not creating good will and harmoney but simply another generation of children who believe violence is the only was to bring change"
it worries me, tis all
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
member
54 posts
Location: vodka-country... and it's VERY COLD here
54 posts
Location: vodka-country... and it's VERY COLD here
Posted:
it all is a vicious circle
it all is a vicious circle
when it gets colder that -25, you don't really care
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
He's five foot-two, and he's six feet-four,
He fights with missiles and with spears.
He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen,
Been a soldier for a thousand years.
He'a a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain,
A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew.
And he knows he shouldn't kill,
And he knows he always will,
Kill you for me my friend and me for you.
And he's fighting for Canada,
He's fighting for France,
He's fighting for the USA,
And he's fighting for the Russians,
And he's fighting for Japan,
And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way.
And he's fighting for Democracy,
He's fighting for the Reds,
He says it's for the peace of all.
He's the one who must decide,
Who's to live and who's to die,
And he never sees the writing on the wall.
But without him,
How would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone,
He's the one who gives his body
As a weapon of the war,
And without him all this killing can't go on.
He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,
His orders come from far away no more,
They come from here and there and you and me,
And brothers can't you see,
This is not the way we put the end to war.
by donovan.
well i like it - i guess it sums up exactly what i think about this subject!
He's five foot-two, and he's six feet-four,
He fights with missiles and with spears.
He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen,
Been a soldier for a thousand years.
He'a a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain,
A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew.
And he knows he shouldn't kill,
And he knows he always will,
Kill you for me my friend and me for you.
And he's fighting for Canada,
He's fighting for France,
He's fighting for the USA,
And he's fighting for the Russians,
And he's fighting for Japan,
And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way.
And he's fighting for Democracy,
He's fighting for the Reds,
He says it's for the peace of all.
He's the one who must decide,
Who's to live and who's to die,
And he never sees the writing on the wall.
But without him,
How would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone,
He's the one who gives his body
As a weapon of the war,
And without him all this killing can't go on.
He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,
His orders come from far away no more,
They come from here and there and you and me,
And brothers can't you see,
This is not the way we put the end to war.
by donovan.
well i like it - i guess it sums up exactly what i think about this subject!
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
Hmm.
I understand your sentiment lads, and to a large extent I agree, but I don't think it helps anything to turn blame onto anyone other than the leadership.
Everyone (generally) acts for what they see is the best, most people aren't malicious and I would say 90% of soldiers join up to serve their country and for the common good... that's nothing to be faulted. They have a different opinion, and they're entitled to it.
The army can prove very useful for peace-keeping, aid distribution and suchlike - the problems lie with the irresponsible, greedy and self-serving leaders WE elect. (and I know, most of us on this website don't vote for those leaders - but obviously the majority do).
It must be hard for people who chose a career, then as a result of that choice, find themselves forced to be away from their families at this time of year. I'm not saying the choice of every individual soldier is right or wrong, but perhaps the world just needs a little more appreciation and understanding about our place and the role we play in it from everyone?!
Hmm.
I understand your sentiment lads, and to a large extent I agree, but I don't think it helps anything to turn blame onto anyone other than the leadership.
Everyone (generally) acts for what they see is the best, most people aren't malicious and I would say 90% of soldiers join up to serve their country and for the common good... that's nothing to be faulted. They have a different opinion, and they're entitled to it.
The army can prove very useful for peace-keeping, aid distribution and suchlike - the problems lie with the irresponsible, greedy and self-serving leaders WE elect. (and I know, most of us on this website don't vote for those leaders - but obviously the majority do).
It must be hard for people who chose a career, then as a result of that choice, find themselves forced to be away from their families at this time of year. I'm not saying the choice of every individual soldier is right or wrong, but perhaps the world just needs a little more appreciation and understanding about our place and the role we play in it from everyone?!
Getting to the other side 
World Champ Procrastinator
580 posts
Location: ||...lost...||
580 posts
Location: ||...lost...||
Posted:
well said firepoise,
i agree with tao star's poem in the lines "without him caesar would have stood alone", but in the end the choice to go to war in the first place is usually one made by the leaders, and not by the individual soldiers. of course a war could not be fought without those soldiers willing to risk their lives for what they believe is right, but ultimately the choice is made by the people on top
however, it is the fault of the soldiers that atrocities such as what happened at Abu Ghraib (sp?) occur.. there is no way one can blame the leadership for horrendous actions like that.
personally i am very against war, or any form of violence for that matter, but i think people in general have to have respect for those who are willing to die for a cause, whether we think that cause is for better or worse. i honestly dont know if i believe something so deeply to be willing to give my life for it.....
well said firepoise,
i agree with tao star's poem in the lines "without him caesar would have stood alone", but in the end the choice to go to war in the first place is usually one made by the leaders, and not by the individual soldiers. of course a war could not be fought without those soldiers willing to risk their lives for what they believe is right, but ultimately the choice is made by the people on top
however, it is the fault of the soldiers that atrocities such as what happened at Abu Ghraib (sp?) occur.. there is no way one can blame the leadership for horrendous actions like that.
personally i am very against war, or any form of violence for that matter, but i think people in general have to have respect for those who are willing to die for a cause, whether we think that cause is for better or worse. i honestly dont know if i believe something so deeply to be willing to give my life for it.....
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
i know it's not quite the same but...
Prison experiment
i'm not making any comment in general about people in the military, i know there's more to this, but don't have time to write more...
i know it's not quite the same but...
Prison experiment
i'm not making any comment in general about people in the military, i know there's more to this, but don't have time to write more...
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
Firepoise, thats fair to say, but what if people, maybe soldiers, were to say no? if EVERYONE was oppoesed to going to war, hence there could never be a war and mindless bloodshed would be prevented. we may put the leaders up there but the people like soldiers who willingly put themselves in those situations inadvertable encourage the war, if there is no army then there can be no war.
I spose what i'm trying to say is (howevery pathetic and delusional it may be) each soldier is inadvertably encourageing some leader to start a war, if a leader was to say "we are at war" but everyone, on both sides, said "no, we will not kill when we can talk" then there would be no war. the type of person that makes a soldier, however admirably they are, are the stereotype that enables the leader to control.
i dont know where i'm going with this, and i dont hate soldeirs, i know a few people in the army and they are over all good people. its just the mind set of the need to fight that causes the problem, to be frank i think if we had nobody with the mind set of a soldier there would be no wars(but then i dont know what the world would be without them).
taking abu ghraib as an example, sure the leaders or higher authorities ordered that treatment. But if it was in the soldier to think independantly and uphold certain morals, then this wouldn't have happened. if the chain of command was controlled well at the leadership level, then the soldiers would be of great benefit, but everyone knows there are few good leaders and as such this means the soldiers wil only cause problems
i know i'm ranting without a point, but i think the soldier mindset is relevant to the cause of war.
Firepoise, thats fair to say, but what if people, maybe soldiers, were to say no? if EVERYONE was oppoesed to going to war, hence there could never be a war and mindless bloodshed would be prevented. we may put the leaders up there but the people like soldiers who willingly put themselves in those situations inadvertable encourage the war, if there is no army then there can be no war.
I spose what i'm trying to say is (howevery pathetic and delusional it may be) each soldier is inadvertably encourageing some leader to start a war, if a leader was to say "we are at war" but everyone, on both sides, said "no, we will not kill when we can talk" then there would be no war. the type of person that makes a soldier, however admirably they are, are the stereotype that enables the leader to control.
i dont know where i'm going with this, and i dont hate soldeirs, i know a few people in the army and they are over all good people. its just the mind set of the need to fight that causes the problem, to be frank i think if we had nobody with the mind set of a soldier there would be no wars(but then i dont know what the world would be without them).
taking abu ghraib as an example, sure the leaders or higher authorities ordered that treatment. But if it was in the soldier to think independantly and uphold certain morals, then this wouldn't have happened. if the chain of command was controlled well at the leadership level, then the soldiers would be of great benefit, but everyone knows there are few good leaders and as such this means the soldiers wil only cause problems
i know i'm ranting without a point, but i think the soldier mindset is relevant to the cause of war.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom
Posted:
There will never be a consensus like that though. We're not going to jump from war to "no, I'm never going to shed blood when it's not absolutely neccessary". It's going to take an absolute disaster which affects every single person in the world to stop this climate of agression. Human beings need to be shown how insignificant they are in the grand scheme of things before their "reasons" for killing other people can stop being reason enough for ending lives.
At then end of the day a soldier is someone who says that to make money, I am willing to take a human's life. It's justifying killing with money, regardless of whether people say they join up to ensure the security of their country or whatever. They are given a gun and sent to kill. It doesn't make them as bad as the people who send them to kill in the first place, but the professional armed forces are there to kill and maim other people for political purposes. Personally I couldn't involve myself with that, and I find it hard to look at the people who have with any kind of respect.
Although I do think that drafted soldiers are different because it's not a matter of choice (well, renounce your citizenship or sign up isn't much of a choice in my eyes).
All wars are unneccessary. The allies were right to go to war with Hitler, but if he hadn't done what he'd done in the first place then no-one would have had to die. All just wars are an attempt to return to equlibrium, although they often go too far in the end. All other wars are attempts by greedy, evil, shortsighted and fundametally unintelligent people to take things from other people.
There will never be a consensus like that though. We're not going to jump from war to "no, I'm never going to shed blood when it's not absolutely neccessary". It's going to take an absolute disaster which affects every single person in the world to stop this climate of agression. Human beings need to be shown how insignificant they are in the grand scheme of things before their "reasons" for killing other people can stop being reason enough for ending lives.
At then end of the day a soldier is someone who says that to make money, I am willing to take a human's life. It's justifying killing with money, regardless of whether people say they join up to ensure the security of their country or whatever. They are given a gun and sent to kill. It doesn't make them as bad as the people who send them to kill in the first place, but the professional armed forces are there to kill and maim other people for political purposes. Personally I couldn't involve myself with that, and I find it hard to look at the people who have with any kind of respect.
Although I do think that drafted soldiers are different because it's not a matter of choice (well, renounce your citizenship or sign up isn't much of a choice in my eyes).
All wars are unneccessary. The allies were right to go to war with Hitler, but if he hadn't done what he'd done in the first place then no-one would have had to die. All just wars are an attempt to return to equlibrium, although they often go too far in the end. All other wars are attempts by greedy, evil, shortsighted and fundametally unintelligent people to take things from other people.
What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
I think it's perfectly feasable that, at some point in the future, there could be such a consensus.
We're certainly closer to it than we were a hundred years ago.
For example, in the first world war, for the vast majority, you went when you were called up- no questions, no refusing to go.
Objectors were seen by society as nothing more than cowards.
Times gone by, there's a lot more awareness of the horrors of the first world war, the horrors of Vietnam etc
I think it's safe to say that, in the event of a call up to war today, a significant portion of the population would not go.
Written by: nearly_all_gone
There will never be a consensus like that though. We're not going to jump from war to "no, I'm never going to shed blood when it's not absolutely neccessary".
I think it's perfectly feasable that, at some point in the future, there could be such a consensus.
We're certainly closer to it than we were a hundred years ago.
For example, in the first world war, for the vast majority, you went when you were called up- no questions, no refusing to go.
Objectors were seen by society as nothing more than cowards.
Times gone by, there's a lot more awareness of the horrors of the first world war, the horrors of Vietnam etc
I think it's safe to say that, in the event of a call up to war today, a significant portion of the population would not go.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom
Posted:
I disagree. I do not believe there will be a worldwide consensus, and I think the nearer the major nations of the world come to it the more rebel factions, terrorist cells etc spring up (or at least their popularity increases greatly), and so the need for armed forces increases, and people like Bush can justify bombing and even invading certain countries. To create a 100% consensus terror groups and rebels like that would also have to agree not to use lethal force, otherwise people would need armies who were prepared to use it in their defence and so it wouldn't work.
I know that's not very well-written but I hope you see what I'm getting at
Depressing as it is, it is in human nature for some people to be able to justify killing other people for their "reasons". If there was a call up today (although it's almost inconceivable due to the nature of modern warfare), I totally agree a lot of people wouldn't go. But some would, and I think that will always be true.
I disagree. I do not believe there will be a worldwide consensus, and I think the nearer the major nations of the world come to it the more rebel factions, terrorist cells etc spring up (or at least their popularity increases greatly), and so the need for armed forces increases, and people like Bush can justify bombing and even invading certain countries. To create a 100% consensus terror groups and rebels like that would also have to agree not to use lethal force, otherwise people would need armies who were prepared to use it in their defence and so it wouldn't work.
I know that's not very well-written but I hope you see what I'm getting at
Depressing as it is, it is in human nature for some people to be able to justify killing other people for their "reasons". If there was a call up today (although it's almost inconceivable due to the nature of modern warfare), I totally agree a lot of people wouldn't go. But some would, and I think that will always be true. What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau
BRONZE Member
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
Posted:
"What if..."
Two of the most powerful words.
Trouble is, there is no "what if..."
I come from a military family, I went (briefly) to Sandhurst, Officers are taught how to run a campaign as humanely as possible under the circumstances, oxymoranic as that may sound, but, above all, to know when sacrifice of the men and women you live with and love may be needed. This is never ever undertaken lightly.
Personally I always thought it would make a lot more sense for the elected leaders of a country to square up to each other celebrity-death-match style, but there you go.
OK, so it would be nice if we could all just get along, but in reality land that isn't going to happen. Negotiation is the most powerful thing we have in the first instance, but inevitably this will break down at some point. When it happens it's good to know that there are men and women who are willing to fight for you, irrespective of political stance or opinion.
"What if..."
Two of the most powerful words.
Trouble is, there is no "what if..."
I come from a military family, I went (briefly) to Sandhurst, Officers are taught how to run a campaign as humanely as possible under the circumstances, oxymoranic as that may sound, but, above all, to know when sacrifice of the men and women you live with and love may be needed. This is never ever undertaken lightly.
Personally I always thought it would make a lot more sense for the elected leaders of a country to square up to each other celebrity-death-match style, but there you go.
OK, so it would be nice if we could all just get along, but in reality land that isn't going to happen. Negotiation is the most powerful thing we have in the first instance, but inevitably this will break down at some point. When it happens it's good to know that there are men and women who are willing to fight for you, irrespective of political stance or opinion.
There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
I suspect that in the civilised west it is already impractical to enter an old style war that requires conscription or large numbers of men going off to fight.
There's just too much awareness of how horrific a battleground is; the old 'honour, death and glory' stuff was seen through long ago.
Perhaps this is why western governments are so keen on high-tech, low manpower forms of war; because they would be unable to summon up enough soldiers to fight an old style one.
With Iraq we had the biggest anti-war demos there have ever been, the numbers of people who are simply not up for it anymore have grown immensely, and will probably continue to do so.
Of course there's still lots of people in the world who want to fight, but, for the majority, acquisition of the necessary cutting edge equipment and skills tends to involve large scale education, which comes with the danger that those being educated will start to think for themselves (and hence see the waste of war).
After all, that is, in part, what happened over here- it's only a hundred years ago that England sent a significant portion of its male youth into a pointless, brutal war that culled a generation.
Taking a long view we can see that for most of humanities time here, war has been seen as good and glorious.
Now, it's seen as wasteful and bad, but necessary.
That's clearly progress. There's no reason why that progress shouldn't continue to it's logical end, where war is seen as an archaic throwback.
When faced with people who reject a vision out of hand on the grounds of it being 'unrealistic', I think of the recent smoking bans.
Ten years ago if it had been suggested that smoking would be banned in public places (bars, resteraunts etc) it would not have been taken seriously, purely on the grounds that people would never stand for it.
Nevertheless, it's happened (New York, Ireland etc). Due mainly to possible consequences from workplace health and safety legislation, bans were put in place, and worked.
In all likelihood this will become the standard for all cities in the west.
If the end of war is 'unrealistic' in the way that smoking bans were, then I look forward to a future that is, ultimately, peaceful.
I suspect that in the civilised west it is already impractical to enter an old style war that requires conscription or large numbers of men going off to fight.
There's just too much awareness of how horrific a battleground is; the old 'honour, death and glory' stuff was seen through long ago.
Perhaps this is why western governments are so keen on high-tech, low manpower forms of war; because they would be unable to summon up enough soldiers to fight an old style one.
With Iraq we had the biggest anti-war demos there have ever been, the numbers of people who are simply not up for it anymore have grown immensely, and will probably continue to do so.
Of course there's still lots of people in the world who want to fight, but, for the majority, acquisition of the necessary cutting edge equipment and skills tends to involve large scale education, which comes with the danger that those being educated will start to think for themselves (and hence see the waste of war).
After all, that is, in part, what happened over here- it's only a hundred years ago that England sent a significant portion of its male youth into a pointless, brutal war that culled a generation.
Taking a long view we can see that for most of humanities time here, war has been seen as good and glorious.
Now, it's seen as wasteful and bad, but necessary.
That's clearly progress. There's no reason why that progress shouldn't continue to it's logical end, where war is seen as an archaic throwback.
When faced with people who reject a vision out of hand on the grounds of it being 'unrealistic', I think of the recent smoking bans.
Ten years ago if it had been suggested that smoking would be banned in public places (bars, resteraunts etc) it would not have been taken seriously, purely on the grounds that people would never stand for it.
Nevertheless, it's happened (New York, Ireland etc). Due mainly to possible consequences from workplace health and safety legislation, bans were put in place, and worked.
In all likelihood this will become the standard for all cities in the west.
If the end of war is 'unrealistic' in the way that smoking bans were, then I look forward to a future that is, ultimately, peaceful.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
thats really nicly siad dave.
as much as i hate the whole 'more education thing" i agree that if you can teach people to think more independantly and not follow blindly( like the populus of england did in WW1) then you will find some sort of reprieve
it irriatates me that governments are still researching better war machines that dont need humans, i mean the governments of western worlds should be listening to their people who dont want to fight, you'd think the gov would decrease reseach into death and research things that can benefit all humanity instead. show people why they shouldnt kill instead of how to kill.
thats really nicly siad dave.
as much as i hate the whole 'more education thing" i agree that if you can teach people to think more independantly and not follow blindly( like the populus of england did in WW1) then you will find some sort of reprieve
it irriatates me that governments are still researching better war machines that dont need humans, i mean the governments of western worlds should be listening to their people who dont want to fight, you'd think the gov would decrease reseach into death and research things that can benefit all humanity instead. show people why they shouldnt kill instead of how to kill.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom
Posted:
Was watching a Bill Hicks clip on TV last night, which made so much sense.. it went (something) like this:
"So all the governments of the world spend their defence budgets on cancelling poverty and developing cures for diseases, and we can get on with exploring the galaxy together".
Nice.
Was watching a Bill Hicks clip on TV last night, which made so much sense.. it went (something) like this:
"So all the governments of the world spend their defence budgets on cancelling poverty and developing cures for diseases, and we can get on with exploring the galaxy together".
Nice.
What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Hicks has always struck me as being a tad cynical.
Hicks has always struck me as being a tad cynical.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
Lol. Yep, gotta love it
Lol. Yep, gotta love it
Getting to the other side
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
who's bill hicks? (any relation to the war on terror australian prisoner david hicks?)
who's bill hicks? (any relation to the war on terror australian prisoner david hicks?)
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom
Posted:
Erm.. no. I don't think so, anyway. He's a comedian. But he died of Cancer about 10 years ago now. Incredibly funny though.
Erm.. no. I don't think so, anyway. He's a comedian. But he died of Cancer about 10 years ago now. Incredibly funny though.
What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
This story from PA relates to the topic on the last page...
SOLDIER JAILED
A soldier who re-enlisted with the Marines after becoming a Seventh-Day Adventist has been jailed for refusing to pick up a gun.
Corporal Joel Klimkewicz, 24, of Birch Run, Michigan, was sentenced last month in a court-martial to seven months. He also received a reduction in rank to private and a bad conduct discharge.
Klimkewicz was charged with refusing to obey order two years to draw a weapon from his unit’s armoury for a training exercise in preparation for an Iraq deployment.
In refusing the order, Klimkewicz told his superiors he was a conscientious objector and cited his new status as a member of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. The church supports non-combatant status for its members who serve in the military, but leaves such decisions to a member’s individual conscience.
Klimkewicz joined an Adventist church in Jacksonville before he re-enlisted in 2003. He sought conscientious objector status, which was rejected last March.
This story from PA relates to the topic on the last page...
SOLDIER JAILED
A soldier who re-enlisted with the Marines after becoming a Seventh-Day Adventist has been jailed for refusing to pick up a gun.
Corporal Joel Klimkewicz, 24, of Birch Run, Michigan, was sentenced last month in a court-martial to seven months. He also received a reduction in rank to private and a bad conduct discharge.
Klimkewicz was charged with refusing to obey order two years to draw a weapon from his unit’s armoury for a training exercise in preparation for an Iraq deployment.
In refusing the order, Klimkewicz told his superiors he was a conscientious objector and cited his new status as a member of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. The church supports non-combatant status for its members who serve in the military, but leaves such decisions to a member’s individual conscience.
Klimkewicz joined an Adventist church in Jacksonville before he re-enlisted in 2003. He sought conscientious objector status, which was rejected last March.
Getting to the other side
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
how odd, it makes you wonder why he re-enlisted in the first place
EDITED_BY: Mr Majestik (1105090761)
how odd, it makes you wonder why he re-enlisted in the first place
EDITED_BY: Mr Majestik (1105090761)
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
Post deleted by Mr Majestik
Post deleted by Mr Majestik
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
"Mum and Dad and Denny saw the passing-out parade at Puckapunyal
It was a long march from cadets.
The sixth battalion was the next to tour, and it was me who drew the card.
We did Canungra, Shoalwater before we left.
And Townsville lined the footpaths as we marched down to the quay
This clipping from the paper shows us young and strong and clean.
And there's me in my slouch hat with my SLR and greens.
God help me, I was only nineteen.
From Vung Tau, riding Chinooks, to the dust at Nui Dat
I'd been in and out of choppers now for months.
But we made our tents a home, VB and pinups on the lockers
And an Asian orange sunset through the scrub.
And can you tell me, doctor, why I stil can't get to sleep?
And night-time's just a jungle dark and a barking M16?
And what's this rash that comes and goes, can you tell me what it means?
God help me, I was only ninteen.
A four week operation when each step could mean your last one on two legs
It was a war within yourself.
But you wouldn't let your mates down til they had you dusted off
So you closed your eyes and thought about something else.
Then someone yelled out "Contact!" and the bloke behind me swore
We hooked in there for hours, then a Godalmighty roar
Frankie kicked a mine the day that mankind kicked the moon,
God help me, he was going home in June.
I can still see Frankie, drinking tinnies in the Grand Hotel
On a thirty-six hour rec leave in Vung Tau
And I can still hear Frankie, lying screaming in the jungle
Til the morphine came and killed the bloody row.
And the Anzac legends didn't mention mud and blood and tears
And the stories that my father told me never seemed quite real.
I caught some pieces in my back that I didn't even feel
God help me, I was only nineteen.
And can you tell me, doctor, why I still can't get to sleep?
And why the Channel Seven chopper chills me to my feet?
And what's this rash that comes and goes, can you tell me what it means?
God help me, I was only nineteen."
------------------------------
how relevant, from a soldiers perspective. so they dislike it as much as someboy thats not even there, i dont know why you would (yes i know they were conscripts) but personally i'd rather die fighting an australian politician than another innocent soldier
"Mum and Dad and Denny saw the passing-out parade at Puckapunyal
It was a long march from cadets.
The sixth battalion was the next to tour, and it was me who drew the card.
We did Canungra, Shoalwater before we left.
And Townsville lined the footpaths as we marched down to the quay
This clipping from the paper shows us young and strong and clean.
And there's me in my slouch hat with my SLR and greens.
God help me, I was only nineteen.
From Vung Tau, riding Chinooks, to the dust at Nui Dat
I'd been in and out of choppers now for months.
But we made our tents a home, VB and pinups on the lockers
And an Asian orange sunset through the scrub.
And can you tell me, doctor, why I stil can't get to sleep?
And night-time's just a jungle dark and a barking M16?
And what's this rash that comes and goes, can you tell me what it means?
God help me, I was only ninteen.
A four week operation when each step could mean your last one on two legs
It was a war within yourself.
But you wouldn't let your mates down til they had you dusted off
So you closed your eyes and thought about something else.
Then someone yelled out "Contact!" and the bloke behind me swore
We hooked in there for hours, then a Godalmighty roar
Frankie kicked a mine the day that mankind kicked the moon,
God help me, he was going home in June.
I can still see Frankie, drinking tinnies in the Grand Hotel
On a thirty-six hour rec leave in Vung Tau
And I can still hear Frankie, lying screaming in the jungle
Til the morphine came and killed the bloody row.
And the Anzac legends didn't mention mud and blood and tears
And the stories that my father told me never seemed quite real.
I caught some pieces in my back that I didn't even feel
God help me, I was only nineteen.
And can you tell me, doctor, why I still can't get to sleep?
And why the Channel Seven chopper chills me to my feet?
And what's this rash that comes and goes, can you tell me what it means?
God help me, I was only nineteen."
------------------------------
how relevant, from a soldiers perspective. so they dislike it as much as someboy thats not even there, i dont know why you would (yes i know they were conscripts) but personally i'd rather die fighting an australian politician than another innocent soldier
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Hmmm - gets one thinking...
Professional Armies: In areas where unemployment is up to 70% or so, the choice for the "average johnston" is to become a cop, soldier or a drug addict criminal...
The mechanisms are far more complex as they seem.
In WWI my grandfather enrolled by free will, because his best friend got killed - "they" didn't need to call someone in. In WWII he had no choice but to join (alternative: Concentration Camp)... But many others enrolled by choice...
These days we still face people who join (professional) armies by "free will" with a total misunderstanding and misconception of what war really means. If you have seen Michael Moores documentation, you observed young men driving their tanks with hard rock music and playing trigger-hippie on "objects" rather than humans... War is always wrong - there's nothing "right" about any war - may it be offensive, or defensive.
Young (wo)men joining the army certainly (for me) is past my individual choice. Hence I rely on my government to protect me and my freedom from cultures and civilisations who are not that much developed and evolved... behind this stand (wo)men - individuals who's job it is to shed their blood in order to keep my freedom.
All this can be very
ing.
Maybe all this is just a "politrick"? We create the threat in the first place, so we can protect the defenseless individual with our mighty army... Another part of the conspiracy theory...
What can we - individually - do to help the process towards peace on a daily basis, here and now? That is the question that I ponder upon. If I have a conflict with someone, what are my actions? Do I have to step back and keep my mouth shut at all costs, or opposite? Where is the thin red line on which balance is to be found? Because being always "pacified" also is not the solution. One has to make a stand somewhere (IMO) - but where? And how?
Whether mankind will ever conquer this curse?
I dunno but this 
will most certainly help the problem/ process. In Europe we may be past the point of any EU-nation to fight another. After ages of warfare, we may be at peace finally...
Conflict - as much as war - only prevails when communicado fails... so maybe let's enhance our communication skills???
and 
to all
Hmmm - gets one thinking...
Professional Armies: In areas where unemployment is up to 70% or so, the choice for the "average johnston" is to become a cop, soldier or a drug addict criminal...
The mechanisms are far more complex as they seem.
In WWI my grandfather enrolled by free will, because his best friend got killed - "they" didn't need to call someone in. In WWII he had no choice but to join (alternative: Concentration Camp)... But many others enrolled by choice...
These days we still face people who join (professional) armies by "free will" with a total misunderstanding and misconception of what war really means. If you have seen Michael Moores documentation, you observed young men driving their tanks with hard rock music and playing trigger-hippie on "objects" rather than humans... War is always wrong - there's nothing "right" about any war - may it be offensive, or defensive.
Young (wo)men joining the army certainly (for me) is past my individual choice. Hence I rely on my government to protect me and my freedom from cultures and civilisations who are not that much developed and evolved... behind this stand (wo)men - individuals who's job it is to shed their blood in order to keep my freedom.
All this can be very
ing.Maybe all this is just a "politrick"? We create the threat in the first place, so we can protect the defenseless individual with our mighty army... Another part of the conspiracy theory...
What can we - individually - do to help the process towards peace on a daily basis, here and now? That is the question that I ponder upon. If I have a conflict with someone, what are my actions? Do I have to step back and keep my mouth shut at all costs, or opposite? Where is the thin red line on which balance is to be found? Because being always "pacified" also is not the solution. One has to make a stand somewhere (IMO) - but where? And how?
Whether mankind will ever conquer this curse?
I dunno but this will most certainly help the problem/ process. In Europe we may be past the point of any EU-nation to fight another. After ages of warfare, we may be at peace finally... Conflict - as much as war - only prevails when communicado fails... so maybe let's enhance our communication skills???
and to all the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Posted:
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm beginning to get *really* worried about the situation with Iran.
I'm confused about what would be so bad about allowing Iran a nuclear weapon (which there is no evidence of them developing). Bush said he wouldn't let them "Hold the world hostage"... Sorry, have you *seen* the size of America's nuclear arsenal? If the idea is to make nukes a MAD policy, then why are we trying to restrict them to countries that solely agree with our ideology?
If it's not a MAD policy, then why do they still exist? They have no place in modern warfare. They had no place in warfare when they were invented.
Iran's been wanting to have diplomatic negotiations for weeks now, and no-ones bothered, they've just referred it to the security council. Why is no-one willing to talk and come to terms with Iran? Bush is coming close to barreling forwards on his "You're for us or against us" foreign policy again, and remember how that turned out? Britain is of course sat behind him cheering him on.
The conflict seems to be escalating, and I don't want to see a third war in my lifetime.
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm beginning to get *really* worried about the situation with Iran.
I'm confused about what would be so bad about allowing Iran a nuclear weapon (which there is no evidence of them developing). Bush said he wouldn't let them "Hold the world hostage"... Sorry, have you *seen* the size of America's nuclear arsenal? If the idea is to make nukes a MAD policy, then why are we trying to restrict them to countries that solely agree with our ideology?
If it's not a MAD policy, then why do they still exist? They have no place in modern warfare. They had no place in warfare when they were invented.
Iran's been wanting to have diplomatic negotiations for weeks now, and no-ones bothered, they've just referred it to the security council. Why is no-one willing to talk and come to terms with Iran? Bush is coming close to barreling forwards on his "You're for us or against us" foreign policy again, and remember how that turned out? Britain is of course sat behind him cheering him on.
The conflict seems to be escalating, and I don't want to see a third war in my lifetime.
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
It's unlikely to become a war due to Iran having a much more capable army than Iraq. Americans are no longer psychologically capable of indulging in a war with significant casualties on thier side. To start a war with Iran would be very unpopular both here and in the middle east so even the more gung-ho politicians would be reluctant about it. I think the exent of the Iraq protests are partially responsable for the current reluctance for any further wars.
As for nuclear weapons I think the time has come for multilateral disarmerment. Once this is complete then it would be possible to have some kind of moral authority in preventing the spread of nuclear weaponry.
It's unlikely to become a war due to Iran having a much more capable army than Iraq. Americans are no longer psychologically capable of indulging in a war with significant casualties on thier side. To start a war with Iran would be very unpopular both here and in the middle east so even the more gung-ho politicians would be reluctant about it. I think the exent of the Iraq protests are partially responsable for the current reluctance for any further wars.
As for nuclear weapons I think the time has come for multilateral disarmerment. Once this is complete then it would be possible to have some kind of moral authority in preventing the spread of nuclear weaponry.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
@jefF: I certainly agree on the point that US will most likely NOT go to war with Iran... saber rattling GWB knows very good that a third engagement in the middle east - and especially in Iran will turn the whole muslim community against him.
As with the disarmament of nuclear weaponry on global scale I (unfortunately) have to express my doubts that this is going to happen. Either side will be too scared of the other going: Oops - see what I found int the back of the cupboard. Dusty, rusty, but it's a nuclear missile...
we're sorry but now we take the lead 
@jefF: I certainly agree on the point that US will most likely NOT go to war with Iran... saber rattling GWB knows very good that a third engagement in the middle east - and especially in Iran will turn the whole muslim community against him.
As with the disarmament of nuclear weaponry on global scale I (unfortunately) have to express my doubts that this is going to happen. Either side will be too scared of the other going: Oops - see what I found int the back of the cupboard. Dusty, rusty, but it's a nuclear missile...
we're sorry but now we take the lead the best smiles are the ones you lead to
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
yeah tom, people will probably never trust eachother enough for something as good as that.........
yeah tom, people will probably never trust eachother enough for something as good as that.........
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
Dealing in Perception & Probability
135 posts
Location: On the edge of sunrise and sunset
135 posts
Location: On the edge of sunrise and sunset
Posted:
the entier world is on the offensive. everyone has a bomb pointed at someone else. it's like a big game of chess. when one country moves here, another moves there, so forth and so on. well look on the bright side, when one civalizaion ends, another begins.........right?
the entier world is on the offensive. everyone has a bomb pointed at someone else. it's like a big game of chess. when one country moves here, another moves there, so forth and so on. well look on the bright side, when one civalizaion ends, another begins.........right?
Legal and illegal are a point of view. All that matters is morality.
If there's a shadow in your life, then there is also sunshine. Perception is everything.
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
no fair, i dont have any bombs pointing at other people, does that mean i'm a neutral?
"and Australias' down there like "WTF, mate?"
end of the world
no fair, i dont have any bombs pointing at other people, does that mean i'm a neutral?
"and Australias' down there like "WTF, mate?"
end of the world
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
i feel like the devils adovcate saying bad things about ANZAC day, but here goes...........
So here we are April 25th 2005, glorifying Australian and New Zealands soldiers both alive and long passed. and any politician whos any politician will no doubt be at their local memorial service, probably giving a speech about the goodness of australia and new zealands lost men, some still boys. maybe its just me, but whenever i see or hear a politician talking about and glorifing soldiers on ANZAC day i want to scream at them to shut the
up. doesnt anybody realise that its the very same people (pollies) that sent our neighbours, family and friends to their deaths? if it were up to me ANZAC day would be for remembering the good people who died for what they believed in AND the gutless bastards who let them die.
Further, by the politicans encouraging the mentality of respect and reverance of soldier they are in effect also encouraging other people to go and join the armed forces and perpetuating future armed conflicts. The worst part is that those same politicians will usually be the last ones whose family or themselves fight for what they send others to their deaths for.
On ANZAC Day politicians should pull their heads in and be ashamed for what they and their kin have done, but that'll be the day.........
/rant /
i feel like the devils adovcate saying bad things about ANZAC day, but here goes...........
So here we are April 25th 2005, glorifying Australian and New Zealands soldiers both alive and long passed. and any politician whos any politician will no doubt be at their local memorial service, probably giving a speech about the goodness of australia and new zealands lost men, some still boys. maybe its just me, but whenever i see or hear a politician talking about and glorifing soldiers on ANZAC day i want to scream at them to shut the
up. doesnt anybody realise that its the very same people (pollies) that sent our neighbours, family and friends to their deaths? if it were up to me ANZAC day would be for remembering the good people who died for what they believed in AND the gutless bastards who let them die.Further, by the politicans encouraging the mentality of respect and reverance of soldier they are in effect also encouraging other people to go and join the armed forces and perpetuating future armed conflicts. The worst part is that those same politicians will usually be the last ones whose family or themselves fight for what they send others to their deaths for.
On ANZAC Day politicians should pull their heads in and be ashamed for what they and their kin have done, but that'll be the day.........
/rant /
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
"I aint marching anymore" - Phil Ochs
Oh I marched to the battle of New Orleans
At the end of the early British war
The young land started growing
The young blood started flowing
But I ain't marchin' anymore
For I've killed my share of Indians
In a thousand different fights
I was there at the Little Big Horn
I heard many men lying I saw many more dying
But I ain't marchin' anymore
chorus)
It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the saber and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all
For I stole California from the Mexican land
Fought in the bloody Civil War
Yes I even killed my brothers
And so many others But I ain't marchin' anymore
For I marched to the battles of the German trench
In a war that was bound to end all wars
Oh I must have killed a million men
And now they want me back again
But I ain't marchin' anymore
(chorus)
For I flew the final mission in the Japanese sky
Set off the mighty mushroom roar
When I saw the cities burning I knew that I was learning
That I ain't marchin' anymore
Now the labor leader's screamin'
when they close the missile plants,
United Fruit screams at the Cuban shore,
Call it "Peace" or call it "Treason,"
Call it "Love" or call it "Reason,"
But I ain't marchin' any more,
No I ain't marchin' any more
"I aint marching anymore" - Phil Ochs
Oh I marched to the battle of New Orleans
At the end of the early British war
The young land started growing
The young blood started flowing
But I ain't marchin' anymore
For I've killed my share of Indians
In a thousand different fights
I was there at the Little Big Horn
I heard many men lying I saw many more dying
But I ain't marchin' anymore
chorus)
It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the saber and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all
For I stole California from the Mexican land
Fought in the bloody Civil War
Yes I even killed my brothers
And so many others But I ain't marchin' anymore
For I marched to the battles of the German trench
In a war that was bound to end all wars
Oh I must have killed a million men
And now they want me back again
But I ain't marchin' anymore
(chorus)
For I flew the final mission in the Japanese sky
Set off the mighty mushroom roar
When I saw the cities burning I knew that I was learning
That I ain't marchin' anymore
Now the labor leader's screamin'
when they close the missile plants,
United Fruit screams at the Cuban shore,
Call it "Peace" or call it "Treason,"
Call it "Love" or call it "Reason,"
But I ain't marchin' any more,
No I ain't marchin' any more
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
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