Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > Writing Routines
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Pooh-Bah
2,110 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Pooh-Bah
2,110 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Posted:
So, Im at the point now where I can do most of the sane moves (and a few insane ones) but my freestyle performances are pretty lame without a mirror in front of me. I want to start making some routines that go well with music but really have no idea where to start. Can anyone help me out here and tell me their method for making routines?
So, Im at the point now where I can do most of the sane moves (and a few insane ones) but my freestyle performances are pretty lame without a mirror in front of me. I want to start making some routines that go well with music but really have no idea where to start. Can anyone help me out here and tell me their method for making routines?
Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.
-Me
GOLD Member
journeyman
84 posts
Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia
journeyman
84 posts
Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia
Posted:
You must realize there is no mirror.
Think of it less as an entire routine and more of small progressions that you're looking for. Play in front of the mirror more often - find new ways to turn and move and transition, and remember not by how it looks but how it feels. Then, try to do all those things without a mirror.
Sorry, I know this isn't really what you were asking for but I don't write routines
You must realize there is no mirror.
Think of it less as an entire routine and more of small progressions that you're looking for. Play in front of the mirror more often - find new ways to turn and move and transition, and remember not by how it looks but how it feels. Then, try to do all those things without a mirror.
Sorry, I know this isn't really what you were asking for but I don't write routines
Genuineness only thrives in the dark -- like celery.
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
4,172 posts
Location: Hastings, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
4,172 posts
Location: Hastings, United Kingdom
Posted:
Ive been doing some which only last bout 30 seconds but this is how i do it.
Say the music is in 4/4 time. i would write which move i was doing for each beat.
1.butterfly
2 "
3 "
4 overhead butterfly
1 butterfly
2 "
3 leg wrap
4 reverse butterfly
weaves are a little hard to write down but its a good process to memorise moves.
Ive been doing some which only last bout 30 seconds but this is how i do it.
Say the music is in 4/4 time. i would write which move i was doing for each beat.
1.butterfly
2 "
3 "
4 overhead butterfly
1 butterfly
2 "
3 leg wrap
4 reverse butterfly
weaves are a little hard to write down but its a good process to memorise moves.
SILVER Member
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
Posted:
just spin, and let the good times roll
just spin, and let the good times roll
Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no
SILVER Member
member
57 posts
Location: Ubiquitous, USA
member
57 posts
Location: Ubiquitous, USA
Posted:
My loves would probably be better suited to answer this in detail, as they've actually worked out routines before. I normally don't end up "making" routines so much as the sound of the music in question sort of relates to a particular move.
"It just sounds like weaving (for instance) would go with this part of the song.. and oh! I could go into low weave there, turn it into a behind the BTB Butterfly.. go forward, then overhead..." Maybe that's just how my mind works, though. Maybe that's how most do; think in music and motion.
Regardless of how you come about it, it's usually good to select tracks and dissect their beat time, how long it is to and during transitions (especially if it's techno). Memorize the song(s) so that you don't have to listen to it to know when to transistion your move - it'll look more fluid and in sync. Other than that, I don't think I can really help much. I do mine more by ear than anything else.
My loves would probably be better suited to answer this in detail, as they've actually worked out routines before. I normally don't end up "making" routines so much as the sound of the music in question sort of relates to a particular move.
"It just sounds like weaving (for instance) would go with this part of the song.. and oh! I could go into low weave there, turn it into a behind the BTB Butterfly.. go forward, then overhead..." Maybe that's just how my mind works, though. Maybe that's how most do; think in music and motion.
Regardless of how you come about it, it's usually good to select tracks and dissect their beat time, how long it is to and during transitions (especially if it's techno). Memorize the song(s) so that you don't have to listen to it to know when to transistion your move - it'll look more fluid and in sync. Other than that, I don't think I can really help much. I do mine more by ear than anything else.
There really is no explanation for this painful phenomenon. I passed out cold. Then I died. - Ach Mein Gott, issue 1.
The lurker formerly known as LollipopSpider.
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Hi Icon.
Wow...this is ganna be one of those answers you want to get comfy for!
First you decide on the tone you want in presentation, then you decide on music.
Then on to the routine.
Things to keep in mind when mapping routines:
1. Your audience. Don't turn your back on them too much. Free up your face a little bit so that you can contact with them in a personal way.
2. Think of moves from the audience perspective. Which angle/side looks best to them?
3. Use of space. Space sizes and shapes change, sometimes alot. When mapping a routine make sure it is adaptable for all venue shapes and sizes. If you have a killer throw set in one spot, be sure you have an alternative practiced in case you are in a position where you can not pull it off.
Now..break down the music. You can do this by rhythms (4/4, 9/8, etc). You can do this by sound (when the guitar riffs here...), you can do it by lyrics or you can do some combination there of.
Write this down one side of a page.
Now, listen to the song, eyes closed and let your imagination go.
Take careful notice of dramatics and changes, and make notes on them as well, in the apropriate places.
Then map it out. Spin to that song. Close your eyes and do it in your head. Take notes and try it out. Try to build in your routine, and do small let downs, then build again keeping in line with the musical flow.
Make notes on what attitude you want and when, especially when you are trying to interact beyond the flames. Sometimes we get locked into concentrating, or else we get lost in the spin and our face gets lost with it too. Facial expression is just as important as everything else.
Work through the song. See what works and what does not, and then fix it. Try levels, sizes and angles of moves. Writing in not only the hand movements but also the body movements ex: "Butterfly..3beats..." as opposed to "Extended Butterfly...3 beats...grapevine left face forward"
Doing that will give you a more complete outlook on the dynamic and will also help to trouble shoot problematic spots easier. Sometimes in notes you realize you are doing left when right would work easier, etc.
Anyway...make your move notes opposite your music notes, and it helps to keep things straight while you are working it out.
Does this make sense? Columns? Complete moves with details...umm...yeah.
That is how I do dance routines. Then I practice the first set until I know it by heart, then I add in the second part, then the third progressively which allows me a greater deal of practice by doing spot work.
If I didn't make sense I am sorry and will try to clarify with questions!
Hope this helps,
Pele
Hi Icon.
Wow...this is ganna be one of those answers you want to get comfy for!
First you decide on the tone you want in presentation, then you decide on music.
Then on to the routine.
Things to keep in mind when mapping routines:
1. Your audience. Don't turn your back on them too much. Free up your face a little bit so that you can contact with them in a personal way.
2. Think of moves from the audience perspective. Which angle/side looks best to them?
3. Use of space. Space sizes and shapes change, sometimes alot. When mapping a routine make sure it is adaptable for all venue shapes and sizes. If you have a killer throw set in one spot, be sure you have an alternative practiced in case you are in a position where you can not pull it off.
Now..break down the music. You can do this by rhythms (4/4, 9/8, etc). You can do this by sound (when the guitar riffs here...), you can do it by lyrics or you can do some combination there of.
Write this down one side of a page.
Now, listen to the song, eyes closed and let your imagination go.
Take careful notice of dramatics and changes, and make notes on them as well, in the apropriate places.
Then map it out. Spin to that song. Close your eyes and do it in your head. Take notes and try it out. Try to build in your routine, and do small let downs, then build again keeping in line with the musical flow.
Make notes on what attitude you want and when, especially when you are trying to interact beyond the flames. Sometimes we get locked into concentrating, or else we get lost in the spin and our face gets lost with it too. Facial expression is just as important as everything else.
Work through the song. See what works and what does not, and then fix it. Try levels, sizes and angles of moves. Writing in not only the hand movements but also the body movements ex: "Butterfly..3beats..." as opposed to "Extended Butterfly...3 beats...grapevine left face forward"
Doing that will give you a more complete outlook on the dynamic and will also help to trouble shoot problematic spots easier. Sometimes in notes you realize you are doing left when right would work easier, etc.
Anyway...make your move notes opposite your music notes, and it helps to keep things straight while you are working it out.
Does this make sense? Columns? Complete moves with details...umm...yeah.
That is how I do dance routines. Then I practice the first set until I know it by heart, then I add in the second part, then the third progressively which allows me a greater deal of practice by doing spot work.
If I didn't make sense I am sorry and will try to clarify with questions!
Hope this helps,
Pele
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
GOLD Member
Pooh-Bah
2,110 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Pooh-Bah
2,110 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Posted:
Perfect as usual Pele
Thanks!
Perfect as usual Pele
Thanks!
Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.
-Me
BRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Posted:
here's where I get called "silly american" but I found that your body motions are as important as your moves for audience effect..
traces are lovely becaue they allow you to use wraps to bounce on certain timing with the music, while the traces help you to keep say 1 following the other kinda like the weave does.. this helps you fluidly move between the wrap beats and say a windmill/ corkscrew, weave, butterfly.. etc... so that it looks like you weave across/around/against the body... and airwraps, hyperloops, and isolations throw big arm changes then nromal, as well as a slightly different timing from just weaving and stuff.. and don't forget, you can use turns and seperations to accent moves/music...
at least that's what I've found.. my style has changed dramatically in this new year.. I think its for the better...
here's where I get called "silly american" but I found that your body motions are as important as your moves for audience effect..
traces are lovely becaue they allow you to use wraps to bounce on certain timing with the music, while the traces help you to keep say 1 following the other kinda like the weave does.. this helps you fluidly move between the wrap beats and say a windmill/ corkscrew, weave, butterfly.. etc... so that it looks like you weave across/around/against the body... and airwraps, hyperloops, and isolations throw big arm changes then nromal, as well as a slightly different timing from just weaving and stuff.. and don't forget, you can use turns and seperations to accent moves/music...
at least that's what I've found.. my style has changed dramatically in this new year.. I think its for the better...
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
member
36 posts
36 posts
Posted:
The most impressive performances that I've ever given (according to the people watching) have been when I've either ignored the audience entirely or have actually had an active disdain for them. It might have something to do with performance anxiety, or maybe I'm just a bit weird. My point is, that I don't think that it's necessarilly best for everyone to try and connect with the audience.
I do however like your advice about being conscious of where the audience is and structuring one's routine such that it faces them. That coupled with the inability to stay in any sort of plane is one of my most common complaints about other fire performers.
Quote:
1. Your audience. Don't turn your back on them too much. Free up your face a little bit so that you can contact with them in a personal way.
The most impressive performances that I've ever given (according to the people watching) have been when I've either ignored the audience entirely or have actually had an active disdain for them. It might have something to do with performance anxiety, or maybe I'm just a bit weird. My point is, that I don't think that it's necessarilly best for everyone to try and connect with the audience.
I do however like your advice about being conscious of where the audience is and structuring one's routine such that it faces them. That coupled with the inability to stay in any sort of plane is one of my most common complaints about other fire performers.
geek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
so.
on the whole i write routines in pretty much the same way as pele.
a proviso. you almost undoubtedly will end up disliking the track you pick to do your routine to. or if not actually disliking then it will be like one of those old albums you always used to listen to and know are still amazing but have been overplayed and never maked it into your stereo(in my case boodsugarsexmagic, manu chao etc)
heath i think (imo) you are in a small minority in your audience perception.
most audiences like to see faces, fronts; this has been a rule of thmb since performing began methinks. at least i know one juggler who is dead now who told me it was the forst thing he learnt when learning performance. In 1927.
as for additions to peles excellent advice:
listen to your music a billion times. know it inside out, so you are nevernever lost, even i you muck up the poiing bit of it, you will know where to come back in, how to look like you know what you are doing. if at this point you dither, you lose attention and appreciation.
in knowing your music, spot the explosive changey bits. this can be a big drum crash. where the bass kicks in, a drop from loads of noise to very little....
these are the bits your audience will remember(along with the start and the end) so make sure you use that dynamic well, and create a matching dyamic with your poi/body motion.
i hop ehtis helps.
Rob
so.
on the whole i write routines in pretty much the same way as pele.
a proviso. you almost undoubtedly will end up disliking the track you pick to do your routine to. or if not actually disliking then it will be like one of those old albums you always used to listen to and know are still amazing but have been overplayed and never maked it into your stereo(in my case boodsugarsexmagic, manu chao etc)
heath i think (imo) you are in a small minority in your audience perception.
most audiences like to see faces, fronts; this has been a rule of thmb since performing began methinks. at least i know one juggler who is dead now who told me it was the forst thing he learnt when learning performance. In 1927.
as for additions to peles excellent advice:
listen to your music a billion times. know it inside out, so you are nevernever lost, even i you muck up the poiing bit of it, you will know where to come back in, how to look like you know what you are doing. if at this point you dither, you lose attention and appreciation.
in knowing your music, spot the explosive changey bits. this can be a big drum crash. where the bass kicks in, a drop from loads of noise to very little....
these are the bits your audience will remember(along with the start and the end) so make sure you use that dynamic well, and create a matching dyamic with your poi/body motion.
i hop ehtis helps.
Rob
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
How True!!!! Mainly because you listen to it so freakin' much that you never want to hear it again! I have a whole list like that. Although, and this should be more in a thread about choosing music but it fits here so, there are those songs that you listen to that you never seem to get sick of. I have a few of those and I adore spinning to them. They get the adrenaline going and I am so comfortable with them because I listened to them before I started to choreograph that it feels comfortable, like an old friend. I sing along when I am spinning and stuff.
I am with Rob here Heath. I have taken several styles of performing (improv, clowning, dance, stage acting, etc....) and the first thing you always learn (and that I teach) is that you should not have your back to the audience for a long period of time. Disdain is fine, as long as that is the emotion you want to convey. It can be powerful and tell quite the story. Besides, I have performed for some interesting crowds (drunks, sexually charged, idiots) and for the sake of safety you shouldn't turn your back for long because you don't know what they will do either.
Anyway, I forgot to mention you can also do a floor map, or block it. That is, a map of your stage space...where you will enter, where you will stop and do something, where you will move forward to, then left, then right, etc.... It helps to create the motion and utilize the stage, and then choreograph how you get to those places within your performance the way I suggested before. This is a hint I learned in clowning class, and is a huge part of stage theater.
Quote:
so.
a proviso. you almost undoubtedly will end up disliking the track you pick to do your routine to.
How True!!!! Mainly because you listen to it so freakin' much that you never want to hear it again! I have a whole list like that. Although, and this should be more in a thread about choosing music but it fits here so, there are those songs that you listen to that you never seem to get sick of. I have a few of those and I adore spinning to them. They get the adrenaline going and I am so comfortable with them because I listened to them before I started to choreograph that it feels comfortable, like an old friend. I sing along when I am spinning and stuff.I am with Rob here Heath. I have taken several styles of performing (improv, clowning, dance, stage acting, etc....) and the first thing you always learn (and that I teach) is that you should not have your back to the audience for a long period of time. Disdain is fine, as long as that is the emotion you want to convey. It can be powerful and tell quite the story. Besides, I have performed for some interesting crowds (drunks, sexually charged, idiots) and for the sake of safety you shouldn't turn your back for long because you don't know what they will do either.
Anyway, I forgot to mention you can also do a floor map, or block it. That is, a map of your stage space...where you will enter, where you will stop and do something, where you will move forward to, then left, then right, etc.... It helps to create the motion and utilize the stage, and then choreograph how you get to those places within your performance the way I suggested before. This is a hint I learned in clowning class, and is a huge part of stage theater.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
GOLD Member
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posted:
I find that I still count out moves in my head when I listen to music I've done choreographed routines to...
Though...I don't always get sick of the music.
In fact, one song we used for performances in October....the 4 of us in the routine still love the song and cd....I would have thought I'd be sick of it, but I'm not...I just love the routine that much...but then...perhaps I'm weird like that.
I don't have much to add to Pele's advice...
If it's a solo piece, though, I tend to just listen to the music and visualize, but when I'm on stage, I improvise the solo...just let the music move me, doing moves that accent the melody or harmonies...
I find that I still count out moves in my head when I listen to music I've done choreographed routines to...
Though...I don't always get sick of the music.
In fact, one song we used for performances in October....the 4 of us in the routine still love the song and cd....I would have thought I'd be sick of it, but I'm not...I just love the routine that much...but then...perhaps I'm weird like that.
I don't have much to add to Pele's advice...
If it's a solo piece, though, I tend to just listen to the music and visualize, but when I'm on stage, I improvise the solo...just let the music move me, doing moves that accent the melody or harmonies...
Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
1: monkey makes statement soon to be shot down in flames(?)
in terms of physically writing down sequences of moves to music, i'm inclined to think think it's not worth the effort
(bear with me...)
i reckon that any time doing that would be better spent purely practicing to the music, working out what works and memorising the sequences you come up with.
(though of course, you couldn't do that on the bus...)
if there was a really good beat based notation system for poi, then it'd be a different matter, but there isn't. So i think you'd spend loads of time working out how many beats are in moves and how much time it'll take you. When you could be practicing to the music and just remembering the patterns (which is easier is to do than memorising a list of words).
2: monkey makes painfully obvious point for no good reason
Another point... when writing your routine i reckon you should only pick moves that you find really easy. This will probably be very difficult, but in an average audiences eyes a sequence of gorgeous stylistic technical spinning is worthless if you get tangled or hit youself. They just won't understand that you were trying something really hard at the end there...
3: monkey makes token disagreement with Pele
for example:
Jim Morrison's stage presence was (arguably) the main reason for the huge popularity of The Doors, and for the early part of his career he performed exclusively facing away from the audience, due to his shyness.
Once he became famous he lost his shyness, faced the audience, showed them his willy and generally became extremely irritating.
i reckon there's loads of guidelines to performing well, but very few rules.
1: monkey makes statement soon to be shot down in flames(?)
in terms of physically writing down sequences of moves to music, i'm inclined to think think it's not worth the effort
(bear with me...)
i reckon that any time doing that would be better spent purely practicing to the music, working out what works and memorising the sequences you come up with.
(though of course, you couldn't do that on the bus...)
if there was a really good beat based notation system for poi, then it'd be a different matter, but there isn't. So i think you'd spend loads of time working out how many beats are in moves and how much time it'll take you. When you could be practicing to the music and just remembering the patterns (which is easier is to do than memorising a list of words).
2: monkey makes painfully obvious point for no good reason
Another point... when writing your routine i reckon you should only pick moves that you find really easy. This will probably be very difficult, but in an average audiences eyes a sequence of gorgeous stylistic technical spinning is worthless if you get tangled or hit youself. They just won't understand that you were trying something really hard at the end there...
3: monkey makes token disagreement with Pele
Quote:good advice, but there's always exceptions.
the first thing you always learn (and that I teach) is that you should not have your back to the audience for a long period of time.
for example:
Jim Morrison's stage presence was (arguably) the main reason for the huge popularity of The Doors, and for the early part of his career he performed exclusively facing away from the audience, due to his shyness.
Once he became famous he lost his shyness, faced the audience, showed them his willy and generally became extremely irritating.
i reckon there's loads of guidelines to performing well, but very few rules.
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
member
36 posts
36 posts
Posted:
I guess I wasn't very clear on what I meant. I absolutely believe that people should face the audience when they are performing. What I have a problem with is "connecting" with them. I tend to get distracted when I make eye contact with people in the audience, so I try to ignore them. However, when I'm performing and even when I'm practicing alone, I stay in a given plane and I'm conscious about which side of the plane is the audience side and which is not.
I guess I wasn't very clear on what I meant. I absolutely believe that people should face the audience when they are performing. What I have a problem with is "connecting" with them. I tend to get distracted when I make eye contact with people in the audience, so I try to ignore them. However, when I'm performing and even when I'm practicing alone, I stay in a given plane and I'm conscious about which side of the plane is the audience side and which is not.
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
The reasoning for writing it down is many fold. Many times people will get into a groove, spin and not remember what they did. Writing things down allows them to be consistent, and allows for a quick reference of what you have done already in case you forget what comes next. Also, from teaching dance I know that there are ***alot*** of people who remember by writing things down. We tend to want to tweak things and move them and change them, which then leads to it becoming more freestyle, and those who want choreography do so for specific reasons. Also, there have been many times I have choreographed something, did it, walked away and remembered a year later that I had it in my arsenal. Because I wrote it down I did not have to stand around trying to remember how it went, or rechoreographing. I could scan it, brush up and go on my way.
It does take more time and effort. Anything truly performance related does. But it is worth it in the end.
Then there is of course the protection of it. If you write a choreography and have a copyright, (poor man's or otherwise) put upon it, it will help to protect you from having it stolen under intellectual material laws.
Ever read Klaus Schenermann's book "Welcome to the world of poi"? In it he gives pretty clear instructions on how to note poi beats. They are not so far off from musical or dance at all.
But you could still hear him sing, and still see the rest of the band. Not so far removed from the radio. Now imagine a dancer, a clown, an actor, a magician who relies on body expression to only perform with their back to the audience. How about someone who does Fire Devil Stix in front of them? Even a normal weave from behind is barely impressive. Jim is the exception, so is Jerry Garcia. I have been to concerts where the performers turn their backs on the audience to play to the rest of the band and I watched people lose interest. Really amazing truthfully.
You should come to Motion Fest Workshops and tell that to the instructors! I think mostly that things can be bent and compromised I agree and are not really strict. The only one I have never heard a compromise on is turning your back for extended periods of time. 'Sides have you seen what drunks will throw around because they can? And we all know their aim sucks! (stories, not personal experience here! *whew*) Don't want to turn my back on that!
EDITED_BY: Pele (1076011916)
Quote:
i reckon that any time doing that would be better spent purely practicing to the music, working out what works and memorising the sequences you come up with.
(though of course, you couldn't do that on the bus...)
The reasoning for writing it down is many fold. Many times people will get into a groove, spin and not remember what they did. Writing things down allows them to be consistent, and allows for a quick reference of what you have done already in case you forget what comes next. Also, from teaching dance I know that there are ***alot*** of people who remember by writing things down. We tend to want to tweak things and move them and change them, which then leads to it becoming more freestyle, and those who want choreography do so for specific reasons. Also, there have been many times I have choreographed something, did it, walked away and remembered a year later that I had it in my arsenal. Because I wrote it down I did not have to stand around trying to remember how it went, or rechoreographing. I could scan it, brush up and go on my way.
It does take more time and effort. Anything truly performance related does. But it is worth it in the end.
Then there is of course the protection of it. If you write a choreography and have a copyright, (poor man's or otherwise) put upon it, it will help to protect you from having it stolen under intellectual material laws.
Quote:
if there was a really good beat based notation system for poi, then it'd be a different matter, but there isn't.
Ever read Klaus Schenermann's book "Welcome to the world of poi"? In it he gives pretty clear instructions on how to note poi beats. They are not so far off from musical or dance at all.
Quote:
Jim Morrison's stage presence was (arguably) the main reason for the huge popularity of The Doors, and for the early part of his career he performed exclusively facing away from the audience, due to his shyness.
Once he became famous he lost his shyness, faced the audience, showed them his willy and generally became extremely irritating.
But you could still hear him sing, and still see the rest of the band. Not so far removed from the radio. Now imagine a dancer, a clown, an actor, a magician who relies on body expression to only perform with their back to the audience. How about someone who does Fire Devil Stix in front of them? Even a normal weave from behind is barely impressive. Jim is the exception, so is Jerry Garcia. I have been to concerts where the performers turn their backs on the audience to play to the rest of the band and I watched people lose interest. Really amazing truthfully.
Quote:
i reckon there's loads of guidelines to performing well, but very few rules.
You should come to Motion Fest Workshops and tell that to the instructors!
I think mostly that things can be bent and compromised I agree and are not really strict. The only one I have never heard a compromise on is turning your back for extended periods of time. 'Sides have you seen what drunks will throw around because they can? And we all know their aim sucks! (stories, not personal experience here! *whew*) Don't want to turn my back on that!EDITED_BY: Pele (1076011916)
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Posted:
ok I have to say that I don't think it important to write down routines.. I think it important to learn combos.. I find that each combo no matter how small teachs you different little riffs... and I love to learn more and more variations of those combos.. whcih inevitably leads to me having some long, a lot of medium, and at least triple my moves, in small combos.. each of these don't take much for memerisation since each of the longer combos are built from the smaller ones... I like to let wraps and traces play my randomness, as werll as randomly bouncing between all the smallsets.. with an accent here or there... that removes the need for writing stuff down, makes your moves , in my opinion, flow more fluidly and consistently... poi works off of muscle memory more then actual memory, so practice outweighs thought... the small combos becoming second nature like moves, and so forth..
on the beats... I don't know about an exact system, but I know that you should try to go with the music.. that's a more feel type thing though in my opinon then this moves for this beat and so forth..
and in all honestly, until I learned some of these sick wraps/trace stuff the glowkids were doing, nothing topped BTB and BTL, which resulted in me not facing the crowd a lot... face maynot be important,but body movement is... you can do a perfect routine, if your standing straight as a brick the whole time, your moves better be uber-pimp...
ok I have to say that I don't think it important to write down routines.. I think it important to learn combos.. I find that each combo no matter how small teachs you different little riffs... and I love to learn more and more variations of those combos.. whcih inevitably leads to me having some long, a lot of medium, and at least triple my moves, in small combos.. each of these don't take much for memerisation since each of the longer combos are built from the smaller ones... I like to let wraps and traces play my randomness, as werll as randomly bouncing between all the smallsets.. with an accent here or there... that removes the need for writing stuff down, makes your moves , in my opinion, flow more fluidly and consistently... poi works off of muscle memory more then actual memory, so practice outweighs thought... the small combos becoming second nature like moves, and so forth..
on the beats... I don't know about an exact system, but I know that you should try to go with the music.. that's a more feel type thing though in my opinon then this moves for this beat and so forth..
and in all honestly, until I learned some of these sick wraps/trace stuff the glowkids were doing, nothing topped BTB and BTL, which resulted in me not facing the crowd a lot... face maynot be important,but body movement is... you can do a perfect routine, if your standing straight as a brick the whole time, your moves better be uber-pimp...
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
DIAMOND Member
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
Big Thanks Pele.
Top quality Posts:
Big Thanks Pele.
Top quality Posts
: BRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Posted:
Big point which I think has been seiously overlooked - especially for fire - is the ending.
There's nothing more annoying than having a great song with some lovely different sections, all beautifully choreographed and a wondeful climactic finalé only to have your poi burn out 30 seconds before the end of the song (and 30 seconds is a long time in terms of a performance). So if using fire you either need to really know how long your wicks last or have a good way to put them out. There's a very old thread somewhere about good ways to put things out neatly. But basically choose a song which you know your poi will easily outlast.
Also, for LED or Glow props you need a good ending. It's such an anti-climax for the song to come to it's natural end and fizzle out leaving you spinning idly waiting for a clap. If you can turn them off neatly, do so. Or perhaps find a way to hide the light. Alternatively find a way to finish with them, without them just dangling from your fingers - handcuff/spiral wraps into your hands, really tight stalls etc etc.
Personally I wouldn't try and save up a really impressive move/combo for the very end just incase you can't nail it and it just ends in a messy tangle which can really ruin a show.
For all of the above reasons I would caution people away from using songs which fade out. It make it very hard to stop neatly
Otherwise I wrote my performance pretty much exactly as Pele described it except it was for a group of 10 spinners using fire, UV and LED toys. An absolute mission but really rewarding...except we never got to perform it properly
Big point which I think has been seiously overlooked - especially for fire - is the ending.
There's nothing more annoying than having a great song with some lovely different sections, all beautifully choreographed and a wondeful climactic finalé only to have your poi burn out 30 seconds before the end of the song (and 30 seconds is a long time in terms of a performance). So if using fire you either need to really know how long your wicks last or have a good way to put them out. There's a very old thread somewhere about good ways to put things out neatly. But basically choose a song which you know your poi will easily outlast.
Also, for LED or Glow props you need a good ending. It's such an anti-climax for the song to come to it's natural end and fizzle out leaving you spinning idly waiting for a clap. If you can turn them off neatly, do so. Or perhaps find a way to hide the light. Alternatively find a way to finish with them, without them just dangling from your fingers - handcuff/spiral wraps into your hands, really tight stalls etc etc.
Personally I wouldn't try and save up a really impressive move/combo for the very end just incase you can't nail it and it just ends in a messy tangle which can really ruin a show.
For all of the above reasons I would caution people away from using songs which fade out. It make it very hard to stop neatly
Otherwise I wrote my performance pretty much exactly as Pele described it except it was for a group of 10 spinners using fire, UV and LED toys. An absolute mission but really rewarding...except we never got to perform it properly
Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,617 posts
Location: Berlin, Ireland
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,617 posts
Location: Berlin, Ireland
Posted:
Doh!! I was wondering where that post went...thought I was going mad or somthing.
please ignore me
EDITED_BY: DeepSoulSheep (1076078511)
Doh!! I was wondering where that post went...thought I was going mad or somthing.
please ignore me
EDITED_BY: DeepSoulSheep (1076078511)
I live in a world of infinite possibilities.
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
^ ^
i wonder if there's a big post about routines in the 'i just learned a new move' thread now?
anyhoo
Pelesay
very true. Of course, the other side of that is ***alot*** of people remember through muscle memory, particularly in relation to music (a powerful memory trigger).
My brother teaches a (pretty successful) competitive ballroom dancing team through purely drilling routines, without any written instructions.
although admittedly he works out the choreography on paper
(usually napkins and loo roll)
The points about going back to old routines, and copyrighting, are very good ones. i didn't think of them... and i'd also forgotten about the marvellous Mr Klaus.
About the facing the audience:
you say they couldn't see what you were doing if you're not facing them, but thats only true of wheel plane, not of wall plane, particularly with waistwrap style stretches that are often more attractive from behind.
but: yeah, of course i agree, you shouldn't do stuff with you're back to the audience really, unless its some kind of deliberate gimmick that you capitalise on.
as one final note, i'd like to say that i often prefer to watch isolated buzzsaws from behind due to what is technically termed "wiggle"
^
^i wonder if there's a big post about routines in the 'i just learned a new move' thread now?
anyhoo
Pelesay
Quote:
"Also, from teaching dance I know that there are ***alot*** of people who remember by writing things down."
very true. Of course, the other side of that is ***alot*** of people remember through muscle memory, particularly in relation to music (a powerful memory trigger).
My brother teaches a (pretty successful) competitive ballroom dancing team through purely drilling routines, without any written instructions.
although admittedly he works out the choreography on paper
(usually napkins and loo roll
)The points about going back to old routines, and copyrighting, are very good ones. i didn't think of them... and i'd also forgotten about the marvellous Mr Klaus.
About the facing the audience:
you say they couldn't see what you were doing if you're not facing them, but thats only true of wheel plane, not of wall plane, particularly with waistwrap style stretches that are often more attractive from behind.
but: yeah, of course i agree, you shouldn't do stuff with you're back to the audience really, unless its some kind of deliberate gimmick that you capitalise on.
as one final note, i'd like to say that i often prefer to watch isolated buzzsaws from behind due to what is technically termed "wiggle"
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
[quote
very true. Of course, the other side of that is ***alot*** of people remember through muscle memory, particularly in relation to music (a powerful memory trigger).
My brother teaches a (pretty successful) competitive ballroom dancing team through purely drilling routines, without any written instructions.
although admittedly he works out the choreography on paper
(usually napkins and loo roll)
I agree drilling, and I mentioned it in my first post. To work through a choreography bit by bit by going over it and over it. It's how all dance teachers teach. You start at the beginning, teach 4 bars. Practice that. Then add in the next section. Then start at the beginning and practice that.... Never ending process. The notes help students who write. I don't think you can adequately learn anything by just writing it down. Writing serves as a guideline but it will never replace rehearsing in any form of performance art.
[quote
very true. Of course, the other side of that is ***alot*** of people remember through muscle memory, particularly in relation to music (a powerful memory trigger).
My brother teaches a (pretty successful) competitive ballroom dancing team through purely drilling routines, without any written instructions.
although admittedly he works out the choreography on paper
(usually napkins and loo roll
)I agree drilling, and I mentioned it in my first post. To work through a choreography bit by bit by going over it and over it. It's how all dance teachers teach. You start at the beginning, teach 4 bars. Practice that. Then add in the next section. Then start at the beginning and practice that.... Never ending process. The notes help students who write. I don't think you can adequately learn anything by just writing it down. Writing serves as a guideline but it will never replace rehearsing in any form of performance art.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
obviously there are people who do and don't find writing moves down helpful, but even if you are a 'don't' you never know when you'll want to share it with someone, or if you're moving on to choreographing with other people you will defiatly need to write things down so you can stay in sync and keep it neat.
if writing it down isn't your thing, remeber it doesn't have to be words, make up your own notation system using pictures or diagrams or whatever works for you. Also, I don't tend to work routines out by writing them down, i freestyle and then make a note of what i've done so i can remmeber.
if you're planning on doing more than one show writing it down just helps to keep it the same every time and makes sure you give the best performance you can!
obviously there are people who do and don't find writing moves down helpful, but even if you are a 'don't' you never know when you'll want to share it with someone, or if you're moving on to choreographing with other people you will defiatly need to write things down so you can stay in sync and keep it neat.
if writing it down isn't your thing, remeber it doesn't have to be words, make up your own notation system using pictures or diagrams or whatever works for you. Also, I don't tend to work routines out by writing them down, i freestyle and then make a note of what i've done so i can remmeber.
if you're planning on doing more than one show writing it down just helps to keep it the same every time and makes sure you give the best performance you can!
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
SILVER Member
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
Posted:
One thing no one's discussed here is the first thing you need to consider... where the audience are, they can be end on, traverse, thrust, in the round or many other arrangements depending on your staging. This massively affects the way the performance is presented; in end on performances generally you don't want to turn your back on the audience much where as in the round your back will always face some audience members and due planning is required to ensure all spectators have a decent view of most of the performance....
One thing no one's discussed here is the first thing you need to consider... where the audience are, they can be end on, traverse, thrust, in the round or many other arrangements depending on your staging. This massively affects the way the performance is presented; in end on performances generally you don't want to turn your back on the audience much where as in the round your back will always face some audience members and due planning is required to ensure all spectators have a decent view of most of the performance....
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
BRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Posted:
again this concern for facing the audience is weird... I don't know what kind of crowds you spin for but face forward is not how I spend most of my time.. the idea is that poi, as much as somemay argue, is dance related.. and thus you will be spinning and turning andf a lot of times have the back to the audience.. I've found ways to incorporate some ofmyBTB stuff facing the audience (referring to wraps here) that have as much apeeal, but I've found that facing the audience doesn't play an insignificant rolecomparatively.. The audience, in my expereicne, loves someone who throws down and gets into their stuff.. not someone whose being overly conscious of where the audience is.. this isn't acting.. this is dance..
just my take...
oh and btw.. the audience should play into your move choices, and how you do your moves, not how you stand.. if that makes since.. audiences love a gimp wrap combo more then a btb 7bt weave.. things like that.. so audience does play into things, don't get me wrong.. just not in the standing.. in fact, I go as far to say that they dig and angled vieew better then front or side any day...
EDITED_BY: Rev (1076106251)
again this concern for facing the audience is weird... I don't know what kind of crowds you spin for but face forward is not how I spend most of my time.. the idea is that poi, as much as somemay argue, is dance related.. and thus you will be spinning and turning andf a lot of times have the back to the audience.. I've found ways to incorporate some ofmyBTB stuff facing the audience (referring to wraps here) that have as much apeeal, but I've found that facing the audience doesn't play an insignificant rolecomparatively.. The audience, in my expereicne, loves someone who throws down and gets into their stuff.. not someone whose being overly conscious of where the audience is.. this isn't acting.. this is dance..
just my take...
oh and btw.. the audience should play into your move choices, and how you do your moves, not how you stand.. if that makes since.. audiences love a gimp wrap combo more then a btb 7bt weave.. things like that.. so audience does play into things, don't get me wrong.. just not in the standing.. in fact, I go as far to say that they dig and angled vieew better then front or side any day...
EDITED_BY: Rev (1076106251)
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Mr. Rev is right.
I think that body position is one of the things that most of us here could benefit most by focusing on. Of course, it's not as much fun as learning the 'next move' but I'll bet it's the area that could most affect our presentation and routine.
Quote:
here's where I get called "silly american" but I found that your body motions are as important as your moves for audience effect..
Mr. Rev is right.
I think that body position is one of the things that most of us here could benefit most by focusing on. Of course, it's not as much fun as learning the 'next move' but I'll bet it's the area that could most affect our presentation and routine.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
GOLD Member
addict
625 posts
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand
addict
625 posts
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand
Posted:
Everyone here is hitting the nail on the head in some way. For me... i use to learn alot of combos and join them untill i finally could do all of them in random order... which some people consider "freestyle" and that is just 1 aspect of being able to adapt if things aint going to well. U know...you need to be able to just change and adapt if somethin happens, like u may make a mistake, and get stuck behind the music in your set... what are you guanna do, stay behind or adapt it so u can catch back up?
Another thing (i know others dont agree) but the last 30 sec's are really important, i like to go out in a blast, for me it has a better effect if its a fire ball or some crazy dangerous wraps or what ever which brings me to my next point...speed and timing.
Timing is real important (i mean which order of moves u do) i dont think its such a good idea to start with 5bt btb weaves... what are you guanna do to better that!?! Sure there are afew moves but you'll soon run out of great stuff and finish doing b-flys or somthing. So id say "start off basic and work your way up"
Speed is also essential... works as above... if u start off going as fast as u can where r u going to go from there??? I usually go...Start slow-> speed up -> slown down -> speed up ->then go ballistic! There are some moves u just cant do that fast, i mean as fast as u can do rev weave so what i do is keep most of my moves at a constant rate so my rev weave speed is the same as my btb rev weave speed that way my set is not all broken up fast and suddenly slow and crappy. Which leaves room for speed @ the end 1min- 30 sec to go blasstic and blow the poi out.
Oh yea i agree with Pele and im sure she dont mean (NEVER TURN YOUR BACK ON THE AUDENCE) there are always exceptions, u know that. I like to turn my back so they can see my btb weaves or side on, but she sure is right about knowing where the audence is... thats why everyone here is so anal about planes.
Everyone here is hitting the nail on the head in some way. For me... i use to learn alot of combos and join them untill i finally could do all of them in random order... which some people consider "freestyle" and that is just 1 aspect of being able to adapt if things aint going to well. U know...you need to be able to just change and adapt if somethin happens, like u may make a mistake, and get stuck behind the music in your set... what are you guanna do, stay behind or adapt it so u can catch back up?
Another thing (i know others dont agree) but the last 30 sec's are really important, i like to go out in a blast, for me it has a better effect if its a fire ball or some crazy dangerous wraps or what ever which brings me to my next point...speed and timing.
Timing is real important (i mean which order of moves u do) i dont think its such a good idea to start with 5bt btb weaves... what are you guanna do to better that!?! Sure there are afew moves but you'll soon run out of great stuff and finish doing b-flys or somthing. So id say "start off basic and work your way up"
Speed is also essential... works as above... if u start off going as fast as u can where r u going to go from there??? I usually go...Start slow-> speed up -> slown down -> speed up ->then go ballistic! There are some moves u just cant do that fast, i mean as fast as u can do rev weave so what i do is keep most of my moves at a constant rate so my rev weave speed is the same as my btb rev weave speed that way my set is not all broken up fast and suddenly slow and crappy. Which leaves room for speed @ the end 1min- 30 sec to go blasstic and blow the poi out.
Oh yea i agree with Pele and im sure she dont mean (NEVER TURN YOUR BACK ON THE AUDENCE) there are always exceptions, u know that. I like to turn my back so they can see my btb weaves or side on, but she sure is right about knowing where the audence is... thats why everyone here is so anal about planes.
SILVER Member
Are we there yet?
1,897 posts
Location: australia
Are we there yet?
1,897 posts
Location: australia
Posted:
I agree with the writing things down, it's the way this little black duck remembers things...
the most important things for me are:
timings #1 - how long is the song/track to perform to, and what are the breaks in the music, changes etc? By writing down the track in some form of notation and timing it, I can then easily plan a routine to the music (physically, or in my head) and see where transitions etc can work. I then have a bank of songs to pull out when required and it's easy to choose one that suits mood, venue, event, timing, etc...
timings #2 - do you know how long your burns last for each type of fuel you use on each type of wick spinning in different degrees of speed (eg a quicker song may make you burn out faster than a slow one if you are doing fast moves)
audience - don't turn your back on the audience for too long, unless you want them to see you wiggling your bum
finale - have one
I agree with the writing things down, it's the way this little black duck remembers things...
the most important things for me are:
timings #1 - how long is the song/track to perform to, and what are the breaks in the music, changes etc? By writing down the track in some form of notation and timing it, I can then easily plan a routine to the music (physically, or in my head) and see where transitions etc can work. I then have a bank of songs to pull out when required and it's easy to choose one that suits mood, venue, event, timing, etc...
timings #2 - do you know how long your burns last for each type of fuel you use on each type of wick spinning in different degrees of speed (eg a quicker song may make you burn out faster than a slow one if you are doing fast moves)
audience - don't turn your back on the audience for too long, unless you want them to see you wiggling your bum
finale - have one
GOLD Member
Member
44 posts
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA
Member
44 posts
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA
Posted:
I think those are all good aspects to have a good performance. I myself do a amazing job with freestyle. Freestyle is great when your feeling the music and happy. When your best stuff comes out. Though sometimes you feel those eyes and you want to impress and you end up working yourself into a rut.
In that event having written down your performance would help imensely. Having it written loosely so you can break to freestyle by variating moves would make thing more fun for you. (Like professional musicians) Having more fun with your performance should transfer to your audience.
I think I will start writing down some moves to certain songs to help me avoid brain farts during a performance. Thank you for your input
I think those are all good aspects to have a good performance. I myself do a amazing job with freestyle. Freestyle is great when your feeling the music and happy. When your best stuff comes out. Though sometimes you feel those eyes and you want to impress and you end up working yourself into a rut.
In that event having written down your performance would help imensely. Having it written loosely so you can break to freestyle by variating moves would make thing more fun for you. (Like professional musicians) Having more fun with your performance should transfer to your audience.
I think I will start writing down some moves to certain songs to help me avoid brain farts during a performance. Thank you for your input
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