Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > Performance Moves vs. Techy-moves

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

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Posted:Originally I was going to call this thread "Pointless Moves" but this isn't accurate as I guess learning any move improves your dexterity and opens up new possibilities.

But...
This is just a list of moves that I think (and I don't think I'm alone) have no appeal to non-spinning on-lookers.
This came about after I'd spent a while learning various moves, showed them to my mum or some other non-spinner only for them to go "It doens't look any different" mad smile or even worse "What? What are you doing different?"

Ultimately, as Poi and Staff are a "performance art" (or so the rumours go) are these worth learning? Half the time they don't feel nice or flow...

Some of the ones I've found this to be the case with are:

# 7 beat (upwards) Weaves - Especially with fire/lights i.e. in the dark when you can't see your arms

# Fish-tails - Don't look anything special to non-spinners

# Hyperloops & Airwraps - I (personally) think they are often go un-noticed by the casual observer and are a bit of a catch 22. If they're done perfectly they don't really show up, if done messily they look like a recovered tangle umm

Anyone got any others or want to shoot me down for damning their favourite move? smile


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NYC


NYC

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Posted:Excellent topic.

I agree with most of what you said... I do think that hyperloops have a place as they create the smallest circles. (So if you do a BIG circle, then a regular circle, then a hyperloop, then an isolation the circles shrink... which looks cool) But I agree that the cost/benfit of learning very techy moves could be better spent on dancing when it comes to perforance.

Of course I fully expect you to get your butt kicked by EVERYONE for suggesting this.

I think we all know the very easy moves that get a crowd to cheer though... that's the other side of the equation.


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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

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Posted:yea, i know what you mean about non spinners not really being impressed by hyperloops especially with fire.
so i agree with what you say. i cant do a 7 beat weave and dont intend to learn it.

one question though, whats a fish tail?

(sorry if this is a complicated question)


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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

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Posted:Err, I tend to agree. I spose it depends on the dancer and the audience. I tend to think of Poi and staff as more of a dance than something technical, so flow is important to me.

There is a less flowy technically kinda style emerging though that that's more gilligan, pendula and hyperloops that are way less dancy but are still cool...

I think the same goes for Contact Staff. I'd not consider that very dancy either....I've not seen too many good cantact staffers though ubbangel

It seems to me that highly technical stuff is a stylein itself that has less to do with dancing than playing. That's not to say that techy stuff can't be thrown into a dance but like you say "If they're done perfectly they don't really show up, if done messily they look like a recovered tangle "

That's all my opinion in my experience of course.

Depending on the type of Poi and light. Isolations can be lost on people too...



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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:Darn, I've put this in the wrong section rolleyes

Wow, no-ones flamed me yet...


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

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Posted:i'd agree about 7 beat weaves although i could do with seeing one of these not-using-the-elbow-cross versions before i completely out them.

fishtails are indeed hard to see at any kind of distance so it would very much depend on the type of performance (stage and audience size) on whether they would be worth using.
like you said though, done really well there would be no noticable difference in the path the stick takes from a normal figure 8 spin.

however (in my personal experience) hyperloops and airwraps done properly look beautiful and along with isolations are the thing i'm most commonly asked about by non-spinners and spinners alike.
the fact that a tangle done well will often not look like a tangle at all is the whole point for me.
they remain the only way i've found to get decent spirals into my spinning.
having said that, i rarely spin fire nowdays and haven't done it in front of non-spinners for ages so i can't really comment on the effect with fire...

one point to remember is that if you can't see the spinner there will be no noticable difference between a huge number of moves.
i personally see no benefit at all in spinning in light so low that the performer can't be seen.

i think a major factor here is that for me, Poi is not all about performance art.
when i was starting out with Poi it was not the movements of my body within the Poi that drew me to them but rather the challenge of making balls on string go where i wanted them to without making it look like an effort.
apparently in 2004 its 'all about the dance' wink but for me the joy of playing with Poi comes from creataing a huge variety of clean patterns without having to leap all over the place to make them fit.

and as i'll likely never perform again, all that matters is that i'm enjoying myself right?
that's what hobbies are for innit? ubbrollsmile


anyway, my nominations are:

reverse fountains (tricky little buggers that just let you go both ways in a fountain - learnt one way and quickly gave up on the rest)

boston's mess the other way (juggling i'm afraid - mills 3b columns can be done two ways. once you have one, the other takes ages to sort out and looks identical to a non-juggler).


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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
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tenticle


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Posted:Hyperloops
I find non spinners tend to think its a cleverly recovered balls up until you do 3 or 4 in a row... then people start to say things like 'hang on, are you doing that deliberatly?'
Fish-tails
My favorite move in the world... i don't think many people have seen me do these though, and i'm not a non spinner, so my opinion dosn't count. fishtail based contact 'weaves' seem to get a good reaction from my housemates though.
7 beat (upwards) Weaves
i find offset 7's and other offset weaves are hard to get into and kind of dancey type thing... you have to think ahead too far to get everything in position and it dosn't flow very well... the non-elbow 7's however are really good to know... you might never do a full 7 beat, but to get into the right position to do it i learned a load of new ways of turning with the Poi and keeping them behind my head or under my shoulders that i do loads more often than actual 7's, which non spinners do like. In daylight at least, when you can see the whole body, not just the arms. You need enough light to see the performer anyway... to dark and it dosn't matter how dancy or technical you are, it's just blobs of light going round.

--Ben



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spiralx


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Posted:Good thread!

I agree with most of what's been said so far, although I think hyperloops and airwraps can be very noticeable if you're using globalls for instance because of the smaller circles they create.

Some of the things like the notcoleman5 and buzzsaw weaves seem to me to be more purely technical and for display... it's hard to notice what's going on when you're looking for it let alone for a non-spinning audience ubbloco


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:ok.. I don't have anything that doesnt flow after practice... muwahaha..
now assuming I understood the point of this thread...

but what I calssify as performance pieces (i.e. those that get the crowds going.)
airwraps, reguilar wraps, and offest weaves...oh yeah and some of these other funky weave thingsd I've been doing lately that get you all crossed up.. through the roof baby... everytime...

what I classfify as technical (i.e stuff only Poi people get that others dont)
butterfly weaves, 7 bt weaves (after 7 your wrapping get over it), and some hyperloop stuff.. (like I ahve a wrap that enters normal weave style and extis tanlged.. and people can't seem to understand why that's cool..)


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Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
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spiralx


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Posted:Odd... offset weaves to me seem to be pointless - why would a crowd get excited about an offset 2-beat weave rather than just a standard 2-beat weave for instance? What's the difference to them?

Butterfly weaves on the other hand can be used to do pretty much everything a normal weave can... and so you can amazing looking things like butterfly fountains and turns and so on. Definitely a crowd-pleaser in my book smile


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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

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Posted:I think what you are trying to say Durbs is:
Just do the weave fast tongue tongue tongue


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NYC


NYC

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Posted:I love it when you type a really long post and then when you post it the server goes down and when it comes back up your post is gone.

It's fun.

I wrote a long post about how many people find it difficult to understand how someone could want to learn to Poi, or even to be really good, and not want to perform. Many people I run into don't understand how guys like Cole could practice so much and be so good and have no interest in screaming fans.

It was a well written post. Feel free to make up quotes that I probably said as I ain't going to retype the whole damn thing...


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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

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Posted:Throws are often overlooked by non-spinners, especially if lighting is bad. Hyperloops can be good if done right and you do more than 1 in your set... Even better if you do a few back to back (ie hyperloop buzzsaw 360 turn). Im still waiting to hear what a fishtail is so I cant comment of those.

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MrConfused
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:Good thread!
Techy stuff that doesn't get the audience going - extra beats on a weave. I've found that 5 and 7 (and 9, if you're that flexible biggrin) beat weaves most non-spinners don't really register as being any different, and even most spinners tend to miss the 7 beats if they're done smoothly. The only way they even seem to get noticed is if you look really awkward doing them, and that kind of defeats the purpose for me. Rolled weaves (5 beat weave with two beats in between your arms - imagine 3 beat with buzzsaw in the middle passing both ways) - no-one notices these (especially when it's dark) unless they're really paying attention. Having said all that, I still do these moves when spinning, no matter what audience I have.
Performance pieces - lighting the ground with excess fuel at the beginning cool. Btl moves, especially short chain. Always seems to get a big cheer for those. Wraps with fire. Isolations, esp. buzzsaw. Just wish I could do them! rolleyes

J


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Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

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Posted:biggrin I think it only depends on who is watching, you can do some pretty amazing basic stuff if u combine your moves right, but as for the 7 bt... i saw this gurl do a 9bt corkscrew and it blew my mind, im still trying to figure "what time it is" and the crowd was in awe, mind you she was standing in a circle of fire on a wodden stage ubblol

Same must go for hyperloops... i neva thought that much of em but iv shown afew peeps who spin and they'r like WOW eek

Personally i dont believe there is a limit to what u can or should perform, everyone is different, and what some people call tech others call basic. beerchug


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audax
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

audax

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Location: Upstairs, Australia

Total posts: 286
Posted:Ah yes, another crack at the old chestnut.
Plenty of civilians think it all looks the same. Like the 2 young girls at new years who grabbed my Led Poi and swung em around and screeched, "Is this it, am I doing it" and very shortly went on to agree that they had no clue about the concept of "moves" and that I couldn't teach a weave-fountain-corkscrew-butterfly combo from scratch in 5 minutes, so I played the grumpy old man to get my Poi back.
Yes other poiers with some experience know the value of a cleanly executed tech move and no, some civis don't understand why you don't burst into flames. This goes back to the "Mainstream" thread. The art is not nearly as well known to be common knowledge yet. Which makes the community of spinners more valuable as you can draw encouragement from understanding. It's context. A newbie who just got the 3BT weave will stare blankly at a 5 BT, but want to know how to transit to a reverse 3 BT. It's progression, and the wider population is at 0 points of spin cred.
Realising this helps you to be at peace when a crowd thinks you're a legend for buzzsawing so close to your face, but disinterested at your 5 BTs etc. It's not such a big thing unless you want to busk or gig. So be proud kiddies, because you have something special in your skills and your community. Awww ubbangel


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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:Well, for me as a "performer" - I do Poi for the fun and relaxing aspect of it, but also to entertain - it means that I have never tried to learn a lot of moves as I don't really see the point in learning a move that either makes you look like you've tied your arms in a know or just doesn't even register with the onlooker.

I agree that to non-spinners all beat weaves look pretty much the same, however a 5 beat is useful in terms of flow - a leg through wrap into a five beat for example - but you never flow in to a 7 beat, it doesn't feel nice and no-one really looks at it and goes "Oooooooo".

The tricky "they all look the same" problem. In theory with Poi, to an audiance member you either have two Poi spinning the same way - in sync or split time, one each way and in either verticle or horizontal planes. So in terms of the pure direction of the Poi, they are pretty much all the same.
But once you start dancing with them, playing with speeds, varying circle sizes and moving about - it "takes off" and becomes all about "flow".
Poi shouldn't be about one trick, another trick blah blah blah - it should be a serious of intertwined moves seemlessly put together.
This is partly why I prefer Poi over say juggling - less "tricky" more "dancey"



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simian


simian

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Posted:Quote:
coleman said[qb]
fishtails ... there would be no noticable difference in the path the stick takes from a normal figure 8 spin.[/qb]



not entirely...
fishtails turn 180 degrees on each side of the body
figure 8 turns 360 each side

anyway

I don't think this is really about audiences who don't spin, but about unobservant or uninterested audiences.

There are people who appreciate complex patterns and technical difficulty in things that they are unfamiliar with. There are people who would walk past the most incredible performers in the world with a bored or vaguely disapproving look on their faces.

some people can't tell the difference between their arse and their elbow, let alone hyperloops and isolations.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:Ah, but with fire/lit props - I reckon non-spinners are looking at the patterns, whilst the spinners would be working out what they are doing.
I mean, why did you start spinning or what did you think when you first saw poi? I know I was captivated by the fire and the noise and the patterns it burned into my retina - I wasn't standing there trying to work out what the person was doing.


As to the fishtail point - the staff obviously takes a different path than a normal fig-8, but from the side they both just create one circle. Only with a fishtail you look a bit more worried and your arms out straight.... smile


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spiralx


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Posted:Five beat stuff can look different in that you get complete circles rather than part circles when you spin... the quad corkscrew looks a lot different to the regular version especially. And as Durbs said it does help with flow... certain moves can leave your hands in the wrong position to flow into a 3bt and knowing 5bt means you can continue smoothly.

But just doing 5bt isn't really worth it smile


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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

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Posted:Well there you go, it's all down to the flow.

But I think the real question is all about Ego. Those who consider themselves 'performers' tend to spin for 'Other' people. The Techys tend to Spin for 'Themselves'.

In my opinion ~ if you spin for anyone but yourself you will impress upon no one. The Poi Flow through your Mind. The skill is in unifying your Mind to control the Poi Directly.

There must be no degree of freedom between the Music and the Movement.

The goal must be to do the most technical moves with utmost Flow

It's the Yin and the Yang,

And beyond theat, Fire is So Last Year wink


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

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Posted:LOL...Now ya'all had to go and get me started. I am cooped in with a storm, so sit back and get ready. (and NYC, Durbs, all those who have been through this with me before...feel free to just bypass this!) biggrin

This is a topic that gets brought up at least once if not twice a year, and what I am most appreciating about it is that there are people responding in this in favor of keeping it not-as-tech for the audience who used to argue with me about how it is more than light/fire in circles. I feel like a proud mama! :P wink



New arguements brought up this time:

Quote:
In my opinion ~ if you spin for anyone but yourself you will impress upon no one. The Poi Flow through your Mind. The skill is in unifying your Mind to control the Poi Directly.







I guess you didn't get into Poi by watching a professional then? There are literally hundreds of people who saw a Poi professional on a stage and decided they wanted to do it too. I would say that is definately impressing upon someone. I have had people offer to marry me, tell me they wanted to be like me when they grew up and ask for autographs for routines the tech spinners would concider beginner and rudimentary.



This has nothing to do with Ego and everything to do with a career I am passionate about, and in that career Poi is a very, very small part of what I do. There are so incredibly many people out there who are soooooo much better than I am in ways I can not even begin to express, to the point where I hate to spin around other spinners for fear of the criticism. No ego, it is my job to make it interesting to the audience, not interesting to me on stage, and that is the challenge I enjoy facing.



And for the record, the Poi don't flow through my mind. They are so ingrained into my body memory that many moves are automatic and flow in a very controlled way without my even sparing a brain cell on them. To me, that is my ideal of flow and challenge in Poi, whether on or off the stage.



Orignally posted by Simian:

"I don't think this is really about audiences who don't spin, but about unobservant or uninterested audiences."



That has nothing at all to do with it. In a five beat the nuance is in the wrist. Do you really expect someone sitting 10 feet, or more, away to notice that? Or what if they are watching at night? Same with most moves. Hyper and air look like tangles. An audience can be interested all they want but since they don't know what to look for they will not catch some of the extreme subtleties in the differences of what we do.



It takes alot of technical skill in a very different way to be a performer. We challenge ourselves on stage with making the things look like more than "light/fire in circles". And to an untrained eye, after awhile, that is what it looks like. My guess is that you saw a 3 beat weave and a 5 beat weave before you learned (if you were one of the lucky ones to see poi) and didn't know the difference. Does that mean you were uninterested? No, it means you were uninformed. And most people tend to want to stay that way, because then the mystery, illusion and danger of what we do is not detracted from. Very much like learning the trick to some great magical feat, some people want to know all about it, and others don't. The dichotomy helps keep my career in order.

And I need to add that it takes a tremendous talent/skill to really present it to the audience in a way they appreciate. And may I remind you all that at some point the weave, the butterfly, the windmill, thread the needle WERE DIFFICULT for you. It is with that mentality that a non-spinning audience watches a spinner.



I know that I like to learn some of the harder moves to challenge myself, even if I never use them on a stage.



Moves I find don't make an impact, no matter how much you do them..

Hyperloops and airwraps...they seem to look like tangles no matter how you do them.

Anything over basic beat (meaning 5 or less).



I disagree with throws. Audiences love them, but if you are in a situation where the audience can't see them, perhaps you need to turn up the lights or find an alternative then.



Long ago I remember that NYC came to the realization that he did what was (at the time for him) a difficult move which was met by silence. He spun at his sides really fast and the crowd went wild. For those who aspire to perform, this is a huge lesson to learn. For those who just want to spin, have fun doing whatever it is you choose to do.

Performing is about dynamic presentation.

Technical is challenging your own boundaries.

Both have virtues and drawbacks, and it is really a personal decision which route you choose to take, and neither is right or wrong. There is enough room in the world for both.






EDITED_BY: Pele (1074293831)


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
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simian


simian

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Posted:Quote:
An audience can be interested all they want but since they don't know what to look for they will not catch some of the extreme subtleties in the differences of what we do.



You mean if they're unobservant, yes? wink

What i was trying to say was that the distinction here isn't between spinning and non-spinning audiences.

i've known a few Poi spinning people whose eyes glaze over at the thought of watching someone else perform.

i've also seen people who've never seen Poi before, shout "what was that!" after seeing a technical move (an airwrap incidentally tongue ).

Obviously they have to be able to see you rolleyes But at the end of the day, how much they appreciate what you do depends on whether they are really interested, o just watching to be polite, or watching and thinking "ahh pretty" without analysing.

People are very good they are at assessing and analysing visual information if they want. How many of you enjoy watching dancers or acrobats or martial artists? Being able to tell what's difficult isn't always intuitive, i'll admit.

But an interested and observant audience will pretty much always appreciate technical difficulty with relation to coordination and physical feats, without any need for prior knowledge.

One last thing...
Quote:
Hyperloops and airwraps...they seem to look like tangles no matter how you do them



erm, yeah. If they didn't look like a tangle then you'd have missed... confused
if you mean they always look messy, then you haven't seen them performed well.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

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Posted:You mean if they're unobservant, yes? wink



That is not unobservant at all, that is not-educated to the nuances. Big difference. Unobservant is not paying attention, they can pay attention till their brains hurt and still not see the difference.

Quote:
But an interested and observant audience will pretty much always appreciate technical difficulty with relation to coordination and physical feats, without any need for prior knowledge.



Hmmm....I don't appreciate the technical difficulty of each move in a circus performers repetoire. I appreciate the fact that I know what they do is something I can not and that they do it fluidly and adeptly. To non-spinning audiences simply spinning very fast looks difficult. It is not, as we know but they don't know that. They appreciate the presentation and that it is something either unique to them, or difficult appearing to them (though I get alot of people who say..."that's not so hard" because I make it look easy, then when they try it they hit themselves and realize it isn't).
In order to appreciate technical difficulty, you need to know that a move is technical to begin with. The average audience does not.

In fact, in performance art classes and such (I learned this from the juggling community, from the circus community and from the sideshow community) it is a very common thing to be told to do the difficult stuff after hours to challenge yourself and keep your stuff fresh (or use it to create performances for peers) but during a show keep it simple. The audience is still loving it because they are not in the know and are there to be entertained, not learn what is hard for you and what is not. In performing something you can do in your sleep there is a security that a) you won't mess up in your show and b) that it will be safe and the same each time, which is something alot of show producers want. Consistency of performance quality is a big factor in professional performing.
And you already said the important information for if a spinner happens to be in the audience...they are usually impressed anyway. Not to mention that if you are doing a show it is all about presentation anyway, and hopefully that is something stronly unique to you.

Remember this is about a non-spinning audience, and they think "Pretty lights..oooooh, let's check that out" initially. It is what draws them in, but since they don't know the difference between a 5 beat this and a 50 beat that, the pretty lights only hold them so long (especially in a day show). At the end of the day it is the show you make beyond spinning that keeps them. That is a huge key to any performance, and especially to busking btw.

Quote:
erm, yeah. If they didn't look like a tangle then you'd have missed... confused
if you mean they always look messy, then you haven't seen them performed well.


I believe we are discussing things from the audience point of view and without fail I have heard "It was great till you tangled", not only aimed at me but aimed at other spinners. Smaller circles can be achieved other ways, though I suppose if you spin in darkness it doesn't matter which way you get them.
Most of the time in a show period doing four hyperloops in a row to make sure they get the point that it is intentional (as someone suggested) will lose the audience. One of the other things I have learned from so many sources is to not do anything more than 3 times in a row. Thanks to tv we are dealing with a society bred to have a short attention span. Doing them 5 seperate times in a routine looks like you ran out of stuff to do. I am not saying don't do them. The original question was about what you have found works or does not in a performance, and in the stage and busk type performances I have done over the past 5 years I was sharing what I found and explaining it, from how I am told by my not-in-the-know friends, to regular audience to what I have learned from being an audience member who takes notebooks to other peoples shows to take notes on what works and doesn't in presentations, and why.

In the end it is all opinion because all audiences are different.

Cheerios! smile


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:
Pele: Ego manifests like this:
Quote:
I have had people offer to marry me, tell me they wanted to be like me when they grew up and ask for autographs for routines the tech spinners would concider beginner and rudimentary.



Hmm,

Quote:
to the point where I hate to spin around other spinners for fear of the criticism



This is caused by your desire ot 'spin for other people'. If you internalise your movement then any one watching will be Impressed Upon because the Love you have for your art Shines through. If you are spinning for the audience then this doesn't happen and your performance will never be as good to watch. And anyway, if you are spinning solely for yourself then it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

Quote:
And for the record, the Poi don't flow through my mind. They are so ingrained into my body memory that many moves are automatic and flow in a very controlled way without my even sparing a brain cell on them. To me, that is my ideal of flow and challenge in Poi, whether on or off the stage.




Do you comprehend the difference between Brain and Mind? There seems to be some confusion. Your Brain is inside your head and is used to teach the body how to move without its intervention. Your Mind however permeates every cell in your body and extends out and around your person. Where it mingles with the minds of everyone around you much akin to milk in hot tea.

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it is my job to make it interesting to the audience, not interesting to me on stage



Well, if your Poi doesn't keep you interested then why should anyone else find it interesting. Your Mind should maintain a pure and fundermental bewilderment for the remarkable things your body can do

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In a five beat the nuance is in the wrist. Do you really expect someone sitting 10 feet, or more, away to notice that?



Whilst I agree that the 'nuance is in the wrist' ~ You seem to forget that your wrist is connected to the rest of your body and the movement ripples through every muscle in your body ~ And Yes, anyone will notice that. As for performing when the viewers can't see your body ~ For me the body movements are essential to any performance and far prefer people to be able to see everything.

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Hyper and air look like tangles.



Maybe yours do, mine don't.

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...they will not catch some of the extreme subtleties in the differences of what we do.



Of course they won't. But the overall effect of someone spinning super techy stuff with utmost Flow leaves a huge impression on people.

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It takes alot of technical skill in a very different way to be a performer.



I absolutely agree, if you are a truelly great performer it doesn't matter what you do with a set of Poi, people will love it. However, if you are a fantastic performer who can do increadibly complex Poi patterns then they will Love it even more.

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And I need to add that it takes a tremendous talent/skill to really present it to the audience in a way they appreciate.



Again I totally agree. My solution for this is not to Try to impress anyone but myself. If I can impress myself with Poi then it's gotta be a great performance to onlookers.

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I know that I like to learn some of the harder moves to challenge myself, even if I never use them on a stage.



Why would you choose not to use a hard move on stage??? Personally I find that when I really get an audience going I can pull off super hard patterns I never even tried before.

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Moves I find don't make an impact, no matter how much you do them..
Hyperloops and airwraps...they seem to look like tangles no matter how you do them.
Anything over basic beat (meaning 5 or less).




Firstly you should learn how to do clean hyperloops. Secondly I'd say that up to 5 beat moves are generally all I use. However I mostly break these patterns up by dropping in a couple Releases, hyperloops or under the leg stuff.

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Performing is about dynamic presentation.
Technical is challenging your own boundaries.




The Duality of Poi. For me Poi is a 'visual interpretation of the sound I hear. Why not try to challenge the boundaries of your performance by using more technical moves?

And don't forget that what You call 'Techy' today shall be considered 'Easy' by a new generation of spinners. As they perform more, so audiences will become more informed. Then the basic stuff just won't cut it.

Like I said before:

'The goal must be to do the most technical moves with utmost Flow'



Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:ubblol

clean airwraps have never failed to make any audience go wild(pele you have to put them all ove the place hence not repeating...)

* hug's matt for being my alter ego...*



a note:
(apologies in advance for appearing ego, i am just trying to relate a going-on.)

in south island NZ 'techy poi' doesn't exist.
when i arrived and played in the park, at a couple of gigs, at the regular meet....i had 2 responses

from Poi spinners saying 'cool, can we learn all these tech moves'
from non Poi spinners saying 'cool we have never seen spinning like that before'

especially the airwraps wink

seriously tho it was all the stuff that 1 year ago was not even vaguely in the mainstream of Poi and is considered on this board to be techy boring nerd stuff by many that i have been asked most about.

as PPP says what we consider hard future generations of poiistas will consider basics...most of the moves i spent ages learning from scratch take my students a few days or less to get smooth as. non performing friends of mine make observant and insightful comments about spinners... as this happens more and more then again to quote PPP "As they perform more, so audiences will become more informed. Then the basic stuff just won't cut it"

and i'm afraid i couldn't agree more.

waveR


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Hilary
SILVER Member since Oct 2002

Hilary

member
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne , England/...

Total posts: 59
Posted:Hello Rob
Yes techy moves are great. Don't want to sound egotstical either, but I get bored of watching 'samey' Poi.
i have been shown air wraps by your good friend Rob(also) in Edinburgh.
Pretty impressive. I can only say that I have managed it perfectly once. A little bit if fear coming into play unfortunetly. Maybe this should give me the push to try again.
Performance moves VS. Techy moves..Mmmmm...I think its great when something really different catches your eye. It cuts gently away from you already know and pushes that excitment.
Maybe I am a bit of a nerd too when it comes to moves, but don't want to get bored now do we?!
Hope you are still having lots of fun in NZ


Hilary

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Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand

Total posts: 625
Posted:Quote:
'The goal must be to do the most technical moves with utmost Flow'





But then again that is your goal...and that wont apply to everyone. I am by no way standing up for Pele here (She'll let you know what she really feels) but i think if your trying to use buddaism or the Tao or what ever it is your into to bing others down or make your self feel better it aint working, because its only your opinion or belief, and we all have the right to believe in our own, no matter how wack or out there it may be.



Dude i could rave for hours about how my people invented Poi and how they have a life of their own and a sex (mostly they are female) and... and ...and... but that is my belief and i dont impose it on anyone, and to tell the truth im sick of this word "ego".



If you guys are really having trouble keeping a crowd interested (and im really guanna get flamed for this 1) try lying on your back doing buzzsaw or butterfly and blow a ten foot fire ball (A.K.A Volcano) into the heavens.



Bring on the flaming biggrin

EDITED_BY: Taniwha07 (1074486945)


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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:Quote:
'The goal must be to do the most technical moves with utmost Flow'



personally i think thats a really good way to approach spinning, thats definately how i try to go about it.

Quote:
And I need to add that it takes a tremendous talent/skill to really present it to the audience in a way they appreciate



well from my limited experience in performing ive found that crowds that a girl who does the most basic of Poi Moves, smiles in a cheeky way and wiggles her bum gets a bigger reaction that anything else whether its technical, flowy or fast but thats just been my experience

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Dude i could rave for hours about how my people invented Poi and how they have a life of their own and a sex (mostly they are female) and... and ...and... but that is my belief and i dont impose it on anyone, and to tell the truth im sick of this word "ego".



id be most interested to read about ur beliefs on Poi. as for the whole ego thing i think at some point or other we are all guilty of that little monkey


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:I agree mainly with Pele here in that there are a lot of moves that can't be differentiated if you're performing for others... but this doesn't mean that they're not worth doing if they contribute to the flow of a set. And if you're performing in the dark with firey/glowy stuff then a lot of more technical moves come into their own because they do produce different patterns.

But in all things I think being able to flow well is the most important thing, rather than being able to do lots of separate moves smile


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:pele said this:

Quote:

Moves I find don't make an impact, no matter how much you do them.
Hyperloops and airwraps...they seem to look like tangles no matter how you do them.
...
without fail I have heard "It was great till you tangled", not only aimed at me but aimed at other spinners. Smaller circles can be achieved other ways...




which is interesting cos i kinda said the opposite:

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however (in my personal experience) hyperloops and airwraps done properly look beautiful ...
the fact that a tangle done well will often not look like a tangle at all is the whole point for me.
they remain the only way i've found to get decent spirals into my spinning.



pele, i find it quite bizarre that we have such opposing views about the same thing confused
either we are doing very different things or the audiences you have performed for are vastly different to the ones i have experienced here (admittedly comparably few to the number you have seen).

like rob said though, airwraps go all over the place - with enough skill they fit pretty much anywhere where you are moving using cross follow (weave motion).

its not fair saying "Most of the time in a show period doing four hyperloops in a row to make sure they get the point that it is intentional (as someone suggested) will lose the audience."

the fact that they fit wherever there is a transition from one side of the body to the other (or even just from normal to inverted planes if you include static airwraps) and that there are a whole bunch of ways of doing them (vertical or horizontal with leading or following arm on top/in front, buzzsawed and the variance of string length depending on tangle point) means that saying 'four hyperloops in a row' is not far off saying 'four weave moves in a row'.
[bonus example of a not boring 4 airwrap combo that i can actually do most of the time at the end of this post wink]

i still reckon that well controlled tangles are the one reliable way to get decent spiral patterns into your spinning.
club swinging snakes (aka isolations) work too but are far harder to time and join together imho.

"Smaller circles can be achieved other ways..."

i'd love to know more!
if you can describe how you do this i'd be hugely grateful smile
of course wrapping chain around hands makes smaller circles but flowing spirals are down to a combination of larger circles from arm and elbow circles with smaller circles from tangles.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
pele's requested move (a not boring version tongue):

4 hyperloops in a row - base pattern is wall plane 3bt to rev 3bt weave (poi direction is fwd on right hand side (rhs), rev on left hand side (lhs)).

1. from behind on rhs, perform abasic hyperloop to front on rhs.
2. enter rev tangle buzzsaw in front on lhs, exit behind on lhs.
3. from behind on lhs enter rev hyperloop, exit front on rhs.
4. enter tangle buzzsaw in front on rhs, exit behind on rhs.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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