Forums > Social Chat > Underbidding the professionals...

Posted: 26th Nov 2001
here is my quicky take on this issue:if you want to perform simply for the sake of performing but you don't want to undermine professional fire twirlers and all that they have worked for how about selectively "donating" your performance to non-profit organizations that you support? don't even get into the club performing gig issues, instead offer your services for fundraising concerts or outdoor educational events. the nice thing about working with non-profits is that you could theoretically get a tax break for your donation and you can walk away helping groups that you believe in.

Posted: 26th Nov 2001
how about forming a proffessional fire peformers union?

Posted: 26th Nov 2001
1) I didn't say you were underbidding, you did. I agree you are undercutting, where and when I don't care about.2) You didn't say where these fire people are and I am answering in the general anyway so that all can understand.3) I understand why you mentioned me, why are you being so aggressively defensive?4) If people weren't competing with lesser qualified people for their jobs then why are Equal Opportunity and Minority Employment laws being fought on a regular basis? Should I begin to bring the countless cases brought up everyday of the policeman, lawyer, etc who was not accepted to the force because of a less qualified person was used to fill a minority slot? In fact, the EOL are looking at being overturned by the state now. And I think they should. Happens all the time. And can I also bring up Monopoly Laws which were created so that a company can neither regulate all of any industry nor can one store/company drastically undersell another to drive another out of business. Oh, maybe the Better Business Bureau and the Fair Business Laws so that underbidding practices can be brought before a board (recently happened here with a contractor actually) and if guilty reprocussions taken. If these weren't part of a regular "normal" business then why are there Unions with clauses in their contracts protecting jobs against underbidders and wage ceilings? If this wasn't part of business, none of these things would exist. Why don't you teach for free NYC? It takes more than love of chemistry to teach it well, we both know that, and teaching is alot of work. So, your school comes to you and says we want you to stay here. We love how you teach and the work you do but we simply don't have a budget to pay you. Will you teach for free?What will you say? If yes, how do you pay your bills?If the bosses of any profession do this to their employees, what do you think the general answer is going to be? A resounding no.DO you think people always got paid for these jobs? No. It was once a parent's duty to educate their child. Then it became the job of a governor/ness who also kept the child in exchange for room and board. Then someone said, hey I can make a business out of this, and did. As with all things it had to begin somewhere. This is our beginning. Why should professional entertainers job be any different? What is so different from what I do as from what you do when it comes down to basics?Obviously, since you don't know any professionals then the market isn't inundated with them AND if there isn't a demand then how can you be in a club spinning weekly? You are contradicting yourself. Obviously there is a demand, there is simply no one exploring it and filling it in your area. Therefore, someone should set a precedent for professional performing, why not you? It is not about money, or who is performing where and how well, it is professional courtesy, ethics and respect that are the issues, and you are still fire dancing around it.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...https://www.pyromorph.com

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 26th Nov 2001
(I am assuming this conversation is open and of interest to those listening which is why I'm continuing to have it on the board. Though Pele and I are addressing eachother, I think the issues are universal... please feel free to join in...)Not that I care, but if you reread your first post, you say "NYC, I think what shocked me most was that this came from you... Underbidding is bad for the reasons Peregrine eloquently mentioned. You are lowering a standard we are struggling to set." Unless you switched "you"s mid paragraph you did say that I was underbiding.I really don't understand the "teach for free" parallel. I clearly teach because it pays the bills. If I was undercut I would find other jobs, not complain about those that undercut me. There are many situations in which I am undercut. Fortunately, I am qualified so it doesn't happen that often. I also happen to have a job that NOBODY wants. Which is important to my career and important to my arguement.I'm flat-out not touching your affirmative action arguement. If you want to get into a racial equity arguement, you're on your own kid. I just know quite a few people that are still owed their 40 acres and a mule.I just don't see a union working for a profession that a large majority of people enjoy doing for free. If you want to try to get paid for doing something that people enjoy doing for free, good luck. Just don't ask me to stop so you can get paid.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 26th Nov 2001
Here we go then ...Maybe I'll start with an example. I am a web developer and I run my own business. I've spent a lot of time learning and practising my skills and I'm trying to make a living out of it. That said, there are about 15 million (?) people who know enough HTML, and know of enough free graphic sites to slap up a website. There are also coutless places and programs (Tripod, Homestead, Frontpage) that make it easier for anyone to piece together what they consider a good website. Not to mention that every business owner has a nephew who "is a web designer".If I want to charge people money for what i do, it's my job to convince people that I'm worth paying the money for. I have no right to demand that Homestead immediately remove their web authoring software, I have no right to sue Microsoft because their Frontpage is costing me money, and I can't really go around smashing up the computers of every nephew in the country. I chose to make my living as a web developer, and it's my responsibility to make it work.If you want to make your living as a fire performer, then you have to understand that there's thousands of people around that are more than happy to twirl for free. If someone approaches them and asks them to do a show in return for free entry to the event and free drinks ... and if they're happy with that ... then they have every right to take them up on the offer. It's not their job to help you make a living.If you're going to be a professional fire performer, you have to be confident enough that your performance is good enough to earn the money you ask for it.Ðraevonof Incendiumwww.incendium.org.

Posted: 26th Nov 2001
I think at this point, emotions are starting to run high where this thread may become a sore point for many people.Other's are welcome to continue on but I'm going to bow out at this point...Please remember to always "respect others opinions even if you disagree with them" as we should all try to do each time we make a post...Cheers[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 27 November 2001).]

HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Posted: 26th Nov 2001
Taking out the fact that you may or may not like Christianity...My church is planning on using poi as a way to get people interested in our youth group (outreach).. We will be having a free performance probably at a major performance site here in my city.Do you think that that is rude to other performers around? It will be professionally done when we do it.. and though its free, I figure it will spark more interest in the area.I dont want to stomp on any actual performers around.. thats why Im asking.------------------May the fire of God burn its impression on your heart.

May the fire of God burn its impression on your heart.

AnonymousPLATINUM Member

Posted: 27th Nov 2001
I think its important to bear in mind that there is *potentially* space for both freebie twirlers and pros in the same market.Basically, I think the difference between a pro and a freebie should be all the preparation (makeup, costume, routine, planning, interaction etc etc). As I understand it, this is what the difference is between a pro and a freebie twirler. the freebie twirler just gets up and twirls in their own way, the pro does all this *value added* stuff.Josh

Posted: 27th Nov 2001
NYC, you asked for examples and reasons and you are still arguing around them, it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with rhe underqualified getting jobs, which was one of your arguements, not mine (and btw affirmitive action was established also for women and age issues, who was looking at it only from race?). I never said free spinners were underqualified, I said I think that they should respect other fire performers enough to offer them a shot and then spin on the stage with them, or that they should spin for money so as not to lower the industry outlook any more than it is. And yes, Unions do exsist for circus performers, for Ren performers, for actors, musicians, jousters and sword fighers... Hell, even strippers have Unions now to protect them. Welcome to the world I live in.My point, it is a job as any other that pays the bills and it doesn't seem that you respect it as such. That is where I am angry.You are still ignoring the point and it is now feeling like a personal attack. This is the personal "I" talking now. I don't care what you do in your corner of the world because I am very secure in mine. Draevon, I never told anyone to stop busking or the like, I was saying that in the regards of friendship and respect, if he had a friend in the area who wants work as a performer to offer it to him/her first and spin with them. Same as I have offered a friend the job of doing our website before doing it ourselves. The point is to make the offer and try to further the business. Yet again, you missed it has nothing to do with competition, more to do with respect.NYC, "I am bringing down the level of fire performers. I am underselling the professionals." "If I work on an assigned project I MUST get paid...." "Any ideas? Comments? Rageing insults and accusations?"I agreed with this. I agreed with this part too. I do too. I gave you ideas. I made comments. I didn't insult you nor accuse you. And you know what? It seems that you missed the points to focus on examples. I tried to explain this, as you asked, every way I know how because it is so f&*king important to me. Yet, it seriously feels like you danced around what I feel are the most important things to focus on what you could argue with so that it doesn't seem like you are doing anything bad. Believe you aren't. I will still be making money and trying to establish a more open mindset in the industry so that if you do decide to make money from this in the future, it might be less of a fight for you starting up than it was for me. Next time you ask for comments and opinions, spend more time listening and trying to shift your perspective so that you can understand and less time arguing unimportant examples. Underbidding and underselling is not right, and you know it, otherwise you wouldn't be having a scruples issue. I, for one, will **never** tell you it is fine.I am glad it is easy for so many to seemingly think so little of a career we love that you can dismiss it so readily. That is part of the mentality performers like Charles, myself and several others world wide are trying to eliminate. Looks like our work is cut out for us.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...https://www.pyromorph.com

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 27th Nov 2001
GodLovinSponge....I actually perform free for several charities per year. That is different. If there are pro's in your area, invite them to the showcase, to spin or speak, as a volunteer. They might deem it a good cause, and it helps to promote them.I agree Josh. So long as the free spinners give the pro's the chance and don't underbid them. That is what I was saying. NYC spinning at a club and not knowing any other pro's in his area is fine, so long as he makes it clear that it normally would cost the owner...you know? That and I am not too keen on spinning at some events where someone else might be....they can have at. But when I tell the promoter no I also will tell them what my fee is, so the next person who comes along who is right for the job will either get that amount or at least have it acknowledged that they are providing a service and should be getting paid. As I said, the world is NOT over run with firies and there is a market out there, I am simply not finding a whole lot of respect.Alright..I am out. ------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...https://www.pyromorph.com

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 26th Nov 2001
Yeah, you're probably right.Besides, since I choose to value art in my life I must be willing to place a value on art itself. It always seemed somewhat hypocritical to me to mix art and money. Perhaps that's another reason why I stayed away from it as a profession.I guess if we do want to turn this into a legitimate art form we need to set standards, ALL of us... unfortunately I'm not at that level of performance by which to raise the bar.Like it or not, our troupe has recently decided to continue to perform weekly in exchange for being able to use it as practice space during other times (actually, any time we want) throughout the winter. This will enable us to create more polished acts rather than just freestyle. In a few months hopefully we'll have a commodity that I'd feel comfortable charging for. And no, Pele, you're not getting in for free...

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 26th Nov 2001
There's a place for paid professionals, volunteers, work experiencers, freebies, donations, busking etc. in all walks of life. Free or not - when performing you should carry yourself with a professional air - that's what will earn this art respect - not a monetary figure per performance.Doing something for free does not mean I don't act professionally or disrespect those that get paid - it's just I have different motivations.Cantus, if your barter system ever gets off the ground, I've got some nice magic beans to swap for something... [This message has been edited by Ade (edited 27 November 2001).]

Posted: 26th Nov 2001
Hi Ade. I have this penguin I'll swap for your beans.He's a party penguin.

Meh

Posted: 26th Nov 2001
Cantus I love penguins - how did you know?Do you have any vegetarian ones?

Posted: 27th Nov 2001
I think that is a nice system NYC. And having a "safe" place to practice can be invaluable. And please...can't I see you????I've already stayed at your place, sat on your bed, why should I have to pay now??? Well spake Ade, well spake.Ooooohhhh, barter....I have a lovely Whipping Boy I'll trade for those magic beans! ------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...https://www.pyromorph.com

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 27th Nov 2001
The first time you "sleep over" it's free Pele... then ya gotta pay once you're hooked. Due to recent popularity, advanced reservations are suggested.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 27th Nov 2001
I still think a positive, educational approach is better than an angry, telling-people-what-they-should-do approach. Using terms like "slutting yourself to the bars," etc. is just going to promote harsh feelings between people who share a passion. The union movement did a lot of good for workplace rights and wages, etc., but there's a point where unions can cross a line from reasonable to greedy. So you get union busters whacking union members on the head, and you get union-members whacking I'd-do-this-for-only-$20/hour people on the head... I guess I'm just saying that we shouldn't be whacking each other on the head, metaphorically speaking....that, or maybe fire spinners who spin for $50/hour are going to start showing up in the river, tied up with their own poi. Anyway, this has been good food for thought. Thanks to everybody!-nickwatchinghisthinkinggrow

"They're interdimensional fractal intelligences. That's why they wear funny shoes."

Posted: 27th Nov 2001
Either that or the ones that are charging $50/hr now, will realize in the near future the err of their ways, and try to raise the price.CRD

-=ÇrazyRaverÐude=-

Posted: 27th Nov 2001
Meenik, I agree completely and love the metaphor. Thanks for putting a good perspective on all this...------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttps://juggling.co.nz

HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Posted: 3rd Aug 2003
What a great thread!

When I first started performing as a nine foot clown, I would crash public festivals. Show up when I wanted, where I wanted and would stay for as long as I cared to. When I have time, I still do this. I gain experience in entertaining an audience as well as a reputation. And of course the festival benifits by the added excitement.

Then festivals started asking me to show up on their scheduale, for free. I said no. If they want to pay me, then I set aside the time, the costume and theme of their choice, the special props, etc. (mardi gras, cowboy, giant 4 foot long q-tip for free ear cleaning, etc.)

With out the $$$ I would never have been able to afford the costumes, equipment, training or travel. As it turns out, one of the festivals supports some of the same charities I write checks to. So I try to support them, but on MY terms. That is only fair.

If I need more practice/play time, I could offer to perform for nursing homes, SMALL churches, homeless shelters, etc. As it turns out, I have never crashed a church event, but they have started contacting me offering good pay for my performance.

I'll put the money back into props, training and costumes, or donate it to the charity of MY choice.

I would find it VERY dificult to perform at a club
without charging. Entertainment is part of the cost of their doing business. They know that and will respect your business sense.

Walking tall and stretching imaginations!

Bill "Stretch" Coleman
Home of Stretch the nine foot clown and his 18 foot tall giant parade puppets! World stilt walking records and history!

Walking (and spinning) TALL and Stretching imaginations!Stretch

Posted: 3rd Aug 2003
**** Please do realize that this thread is very old. Most New York City fire scene references are dated. Please do take all of my posts above this one as my views over a year ago... ****

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 3rd Aug 2003
heh i agree with meenik. slutting is a terrible term for a beautiful art. sugar tastes better than sour when applied to discussions.

my take is that it's ultimately up to the scruples of the promoter. there are limits to what a tirade from a troupe can do. you get what you pay for, and the niche for professionals are insurance and polish. We should not pretend that the bare-cost niche is a powerful player.

the battle for the gig is won and lost in the dicey arena we call the promoter's scruples.

how's it like here?
$100AU an hour on and off per performed in melbourne is cheap, and is typically undercut by $80AU performers.
to the promoters reading this, i say ask for insurance and photos/footage/proof of previous professional gigs, but the comprimise comes down to how much polish for how much $$$.
let's keep the PLUR on this thread and Kudos to NYC, Meenik, Bendy and Charles for keepingthis discussion level-headed.

Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

Posted: 3rd Aug 2003
I think Draevon (Another HOP'er MIA) hit the nail on the head - it's a free market regardless of what the product/service is. It's all about competition - if you want to get paid and some other guy(s) does it for free, you have to be worth the extra. Just because you want to make it a profession doesn't earn you the right to be paid.

When Burnt Toast (www.hugbubble.co.uk plug plug plug ) started out (well, we still are starting out but anyhoo) we purposefully lowered our prices, did freebies and never turned a gig down - it'd be stupid to. Our upcoming gig at Beautiful Days (www.beautifuldays.org) is unpaid - free entrance, food, backstage camping and expenses - but then again this is more of a learning booking than a proper one. It'll be our first performance and we're also running workshops (which we've done before). Perhaps we've pushed another pro-group out of the performance but then I think "Fair Enough - it's competition"
There will be loads of other poi spinners there, there always are nowadays , and many will be teaching passers by. However, I hope we will be offering a better service than them to justify us being "hired". If we're a success then come next year we'll ask to be paid the full wack.

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

Posted: 3rd Aug 2003
my quick exhausted two cents. undercutting sucks. but spinning for free doesn't. what sucks about free spinners though is when they don't tell the promoters about the people that they are ousting out of a job/undercutting. if it's _not_ undercutting, then why not tell the promoter about the really great pros that inspired you to start spinning, so that they can get the job, and maybe even let you spin too? but regardless, free hobbyists only increase awareness of the art, and after seeing some freebie newbie (and how much the crowd likes them) usually a promoter shits his pants when they see me, and i have a job.
but incedents when people know there is someone far more qualified that really needs the work, yet spin for free anyway, really hurt our making a living. i work real hard for little money and lose out on lots of jobs where i could at least make fifty bucks and some recognition. almost every time i spin i get more work, so those jobs that people do for free really could be 3 more jobs that i won't get, and neither will the newbie, because the promoter wouldn't ask the newbie to perform because they aren't worth paying for. see my point? the point is, fine, do spinning for free, performing is fun and you will learn things about yourself, just be respectful and give props to the really dedicated people who inspire you and throw some busness at them, tell the people you spin for about them.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted: 3rd Aug 2003
*hums to self* "step back in time"...

I was reading this thread as though it had started today, and was wondering where it had all sprung from

There was one thing that got lost along the way, which was something charles introduced. It links in with the idea of being professional even when you are performing for free. He was saying that it is a good idea to tell people what this performance would cost them if you were to do it on a paid basis. This makes clear that you aren't just "an idiot waving flaming things" and it keeps the value in the industry.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

Posted: 4th Aug 2003
Lets all raise the bar, and push the standard even higher.

Thats what its about, to me, weather you get paid or not. Principles/ morals and standard.

Your standard should be equal to a pro, if you are going to put your self out there, otherwise you lower it. And that effects everyone. And the standard will continue to decrease. If there is someone better than me, hell they can have it.

Sure i spin for free, only for the right reasons, and i love it. But the art deserves total respect and commitment.

I dont believe in the "teach for free" idea, cause schools (and other instuitions)want high standards, they wont hire some chump off the street like many promotors who are only out for a quick $$$. We should be forcing the promotor's to see the difference in the quality of work, and the safety standard.

Common... we all gotta push it to another level and maintain so the pretenders will be revealed by the obvious standard difference and they will have to improve also, which push's the art into a whole new world. A world where they want the best, which we'll all be striving to become, instead of indivuals trying to pull it up from the top.

quote:

---

Free or not - when performing you should carry yourself with a professional air

---

Ade.

Its all just smoke and mirrors

Posted: 4th Aug 2003
Dear Pele- You are talking about creating a set of ethics and tacit rules for a sport that dictates none.

People with different ideology to you can thus ignore whatever rules you set, adhering only to their own. You can't force someone to behave in a certain way, people can do whatever they want, and will. People will do it as a hobby and people will do it professionally and there is nothing to stop either of them. It is a free and open sport so people will learn, practice, teach others, improve and perform given the chance. There is nothing hidden about it that others can't observe and there is no move that cant be imitated. And you most certainly can't patent a move (thank god- just think, so who do I buy the right to do the 3bt weave off?!). So how is this related to underbidding pros?

In a developing market such as firspinning any attempt to put clamps on people will fail- like any other market, people are in it for themselves against the competition, fighting for survival against other brands. Making your product cheaper than the rest is pure marketing strategy (whether it is right or wrong is a different matter, and fairly irrelevant as it is legal and it is done)- firespinners are going to become relatively common whether you like it or not because like you, so many other people see the joy of it. This forces the market to diversify- people who are really interested in the money are forced to excel and bring their standards to an even higher level, to create a name for themselves and become speciality goods(anyone can buy chocolate anywhere, but if you really want the creme de la creme you have to pay through the nose for it- and quite rightly too methinks). So in my opinion, NYC is not bringing down the level of pro fireperformers, but is forcing it up.

People are beginning to know that they are going to get what they pay for. If you ask me, exploiting the ignorant by charging skyhigh fees for what you want to do (eg pro footballers) and don't necessarily do well, just to keep the money flowing in for others, is just as bad as undercutting the pros, and telling someone they shouldn't perform somewhere for free even if they want to because someone else may need the money is simply unrealistic.

What can I say? we live in a capitalist world, sad but true.

I apologise pele if this post sounds harsh, and most of it is not necessarily how I myself feel it should be, but more like the way i think it is.

Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.

Posted: 4th Aug 2003
*wondering if people realize this thread is over a year old and that any issues were long since solved?*

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 4th Aug 2003
yeah, read that , but since it came up i just thought I'd post a little something (spec since a similar situation recently came up in bristol). mua!

Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.

Posted: 4th Aug 2003
well i still found it an interesting read...

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.