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Third-order Motions (three circles composition)

      
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#920790 - 26/08/10 10:23 PM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: Zaltymbunk]
AlienJon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/03/02
Loc: Everywhere
Damian, you've reached your monthly bandwidth limit on imageshotel.org and I can't see your images. =(
It would be great to find another place to host them without bandwidth restrictions. Perhaps we could (at least temporarily) host them at alienjon.com/Zultymbunk, if you like, or maybe Drex can host them? One way or the other, can I download them from you?
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#920791 - 26/08/10 10:26 PM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: Zaltymbunk]
AlienJon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/03/02
Loc: Everywhere
Here are some other examples:
Zan's Diamond at 0:22


Hand-to-Head tracing Starting at 0:20


My "Antispin Weave Fountain"

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+Alien Jon

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#920792 - 26/08/10 10:53 PM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: Zaltymbunk]
AlienJon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/03/02
Loc: Everywhere
Concerning the name "no spin". I just want to point out that this makes sense from a particular frame of reference. Specifically if the spin is observed from a frame of reference oriented to the 2nd Center of Rotation, for example a fly sitting on the hand of the poi spinner. If on the other hand, we look from the frame of reference of a stationary audience, then there is spin, but it is "concentric spin", ie concentric to the hand path.

I think Zaltymbank tends to use the local frame of reference, and I tend to use the audience. I'm not saying that one name/concept is better or worse, just want to make sure people know they are the same phenomenon viewed from different frames of reference.
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#920802 - 27/08/10 12:59 AM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: chemairo]
AlienJon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/03/02
Loc: Everywhere
Concerning Zan's Diamond:
Whether you are using circles and smooth curves, or linear moves along polygons, you are doing different flavors of the same thing.
It's just Yin or Yang flavored.

Zan was using linear moves tracing along the "diamond", wich can also be thought of as a hand path that traces 4-petal antispin of the "box" variety (diagonal petals).
Zan however had reduced the curves to polygons, using the minimum number of linear movements between the minimum number of nodes to create a sharp polygon version of said antispin.

This yields a very sharp/yang flavor to the pattern.
If on the other hand you try to smooth the hand path out until it is much closer to the smooth curves of the iconic 4-petal antispin flower, then you will have the same base pattern with a much smoother curved Yin flavor to it.


Explaining Yin vs Yang "flavors" a bit more:
A circle can be though of as a polygon with infinite segments and points.
If you take n number of points around the circle, and connect each point to the next, you get a polygon with n sides.
The fewest points you need to make a polygon is 3, which is the sharpest polygon.



We could imagine each point of the triangle is the location of the hand during the apex of each antispin petal, for instance. If your hand traces along the lines of the triangle, your antispin will go from a smooth yin flavor to a sharp yang flavor. This will yield a pattern that can be seen as a series of linear extensions (arcs) along the lines traveling between the petal (loop) at each node.

On the other hand we could place each petal (loop) in the middle of each line segment, and the arcs centered at each node. This can be seen as a series of linear isolations (of the loopy variety) along each line segment, with arc passing each node. It may feel a bit like isolated antispin. Your hand will trace one triangle, wile the poi head's antispin pattern will insinuate the reciprocal triangle.
These ideas are further explored in Cyrille's paper Spinning & Geometry (mirrored by Drex).


Between curved/circular and sharp/polygon renditions of the same patterns, the difference in flavor is most pronounced between triangle and circle.
As we increase the number of sides/nodes on the polygon get closer to approximating the curve of the circle, so that the difference in flavor is less and less.
















... and so on until
you can't tell
a polygon
from a circle.
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+Alien Jon

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#920805 - 27/08/10 02:52 AM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: chemairo]
AlienJon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/03/02
Loc: Everywhere
Originally Posted By: chemairo
...at each petal you can transition into a cateye and between two petals you can transition into a cateye.


Said more verbosely:
At each petal (loop) the poi is in a similar state as it is in the tip of a cateye.
Therefor you have a seamless transition point between the 2.
You can lockout from your flower into a cateye that is pointing radially from the center of your original flower.

On the other hand, in between petals you have an arc that connects 2 loops.
This state is similar to that of the elongated part of a cateye.
Therefor you can make a seamless transition, locking out in a cateye that is perpendicular to the center of your original flower.

So yeah, wherever there is a loop you can lockout into a cateye, and wherever there is an arc you can lock out in a cateye.
But for that matter, wherever there is a loop you can lockout in an isolation, and wherever there is an arc you can lockout in an extension.

From flowers (inspin or antispin), and for that matter any patterns that contain loops and/or arcs in general, you can use 1 of 3 types of unit circle lockouts:
  • extension
  • isolation
  • cateye

Extension has the 2 ends of the poi in a together time - same direction relationship.
This is related to translational symmetry (in this case along the radius in a concentric manner).

Isolation is a split time - same direction relationship of the 2 ends.
This is related to radial symmetry.

Cateyes have the 2 ends relating in opposite directions, in any possible phase, ie, together, split, quarter, and anything in-between for that matter.
This is related to mirror symmetry. The phase dictates the angle of the mirror axis.



These lockouts raise an important point:
We should be conscious of the the distinction between closed figures and open figures.
With a closed figure, if you start at time T1 at position A you will end at time T2 at position A, with a similar poi/momentum state. This means you can repeat the same pattern, in it's entirety, n times (however many you want).

With an open figure if you start at time T1 at position A you will end at time T2 at position B, with a poi/momentum state that may or may not be dissimilar.

You can take a closed figure and chop it up into a series of open figures.
For example a circle is a simple closed figure. You could cut it into 4 quarter circles.
However you don't have to put these quarters back together to only make a circle.
You could use some of them combined with other open figures, to assemble another pattern.
This assembly might be a new open figure, or it might be a new closed figure.
It might even be a more complex closed figure that returns to the same poi position/momentum state as the start of your original pattern (ie your circle).
This allows you to transition cyclically between these 2 patterns in a more complex assembly pattern.

One of the ways you can use these transition principles is using some form of lockout, as stated above. If you lockout from the complex pattern for too many cycles, the cohesiveness of your assembly may be lost.
But if you for example, lockout at each petal of a triquetra with one cycle of cateye, you make a pattern that approximates one of the above mentioned 3-order curves.
Notice that I said approximates!



Is there a difference between lockout assemblies and complex curves with perfect harmonic ratios?

Well, yes and no. What the heck do I mean by this anyway?
Let's take a simple example: 2-lockout inspin flower VS 2-loop inspin flower.

Many people learn inspin flowers using lockouts.
For a 2-petal flower they make a longarm half-circle, then lockout into a static circle.
During that time their hand is static.
Then the small circle completes, and their hand makes another longarm half-circle, followed by another static circle...
Finally they have completed 1 cycle of 2-petal flower, and they could continue to do so if they like.

This uses 2 open figures (the 2 half-circles) and 2 closed figures (the 2 static circles).
This presents an interesting problem:
At the 2 points where the poi position/momentum state are the same in the different figures, we could choose to omit a lockout, or lockout for n number of spins, not just one. So this pattern is actually an assembly of simpler harmonic ratios, or parts of them.

Now lets look at a 2-petal inspin that uses 2 loops. It is an accurate recreation of the mathematical curve that has a 2:1 ratio between the 2 Centers of Rotation. You will only come back to a similar position/momentum point once per repetition of the pattern. If you deviate from it, you are then using part or it to create an assembly.

Zaltymbunk is looking at the figures that are irreducible closed figures in themselves. These figures arise out of relatively simple harmonic ratios. From these figures as a base, we can chop them up and make assemblies.

So yes there is an important difference between assembling lockouts, and irreducible harmonic curves... but we as humans will never quite recreate them perfectly.
Further more there are plenty of assemblies that approximate the perfect curves nicely enough for an audience... for that matter, making cool assemblies is a lot of fun.

So no, it isn't all that important to use only perfect harmonic curves, and think in those terms. It is however useful to understand the differences and the relationships between the 2.

Final point:
Wether you think of a 3rd-order curve, or an assembly of cateye lockouts connected by the open figures you chopped out of a triquetra, you will be getting a similar pattern. Understanding the implications of each thought model will give you a variety of creative ways to explore poi.
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+Alien Jon

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#920842 - 27/08/10 08:01 PM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: AlienJon]
aston Offline
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League

Registered: 02/12/07
Loc: South Africa
I can definitely host them, not sure for how long, but at least for a few months.

Going to try and grok this stuff on the weekend, thanks.
_________________________
'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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#920855 - 28/08/10 12:42 AM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: aston]
chemairo Offline
person who like to spin all gears

Registered: 10/09/08
Loc: Germany - Düsseldorf
why don't post it on wikipedia?

Other idea would be to back up it at picasa or flickr

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#920858 - 28/08/10 02:43 AM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: chemairo]
SpinnerofDetroit Offline
All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want

Registered: 25/10/09
Loc: Trenton, MI, USA
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The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

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#920878 - 28/08/10 09:15 AM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: SpinnerofDetroit]
G4dget Offline
Eternal Student of all things Skill

Registered: 05/08/06
Loc: Kansas City, KS
I can't see the reference picture. Is there anywhere else to find it right now. Everything looks great and I love all the concepts but it's hard to figure it out without a reference.
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Happiness runs in a circular motion!!

G4dget

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#920882 - 28/08/10 04:15 PM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: G4dget]
Mother_Natures_Son Offline
Rampant whirler.

Registered: 01/08/07
Loc: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
SoD, I made these pictures a while ago, they were discussing head patterns whereas your video discusses hand patterns, though they can be applied to hand patterns.




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hug

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#920888 - 29/08/10 01:48 AM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: Mother_Natures_Son]
SpinnerofDetroit Offline
All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want

Registered: 25/10/09
Loc: Trenton, MI, USA
Why thank you! I did not know about that first picture! I likey grin
_________________________
The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

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#920907 - 30/08/10 01:21 AM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: AlienJon]
DrexFactor Offline
Defeats the purpose

Registered: 18/07/07
Loc: Washington, DC USA
I'm still catching up on this thread (been in Africa for the past month), but I'd be delighted to host these images. Zalty, can you email them to me? drex (at) drexfactor dot com


Edited by DrexFactor (30/08/10 02:49 PM)
Edit Reason: hiding my email from spambots
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Drex

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#921068 - 02/09/10 12:28 AM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: aston]
Zaltymbunk Offline
newbie

Registered: 06/07/06
Loc: Gennes, Maine et Loire, France
Okay guys the images are back ! clap

Great explanations Jon !
Thanks to make me avoid writing a too excessive reply.


Originally Posted By: aston
Zaltymbunk: I am having trouble deciding what the different trajectories in some of your diagrams are in real terms.

Extremity is logically the poi head, but what would main and centreinter be?


Okay first don't forget that i am french ... so what is written on the pictures is in this language.

"Trajet" means Path, "Centre" means Center, "Main" means Hand & "Extremité" means Extremity in English. "Inter" is for Intermediary as explained before.

So, "Trajet CentreInter" is the path described by the point I, "Trajet Main" is the path described by the point M & "Trajet Extrémité" is the path described by the point E in my model and from the audience poitn of view.

"Relatif" means Relative in English.

So, "Trajet Main Relatif" is the path described by the point M with the point of view of a fly putted on [OI] (as Jon explained before about the local frame reference).
And "Trajet Ext Relatif" is the path described by the point E with that same point of view.


Originally Posted By: Unregistred
Can you show your pattern generator sheet ?


I have to do an english version of my excel sheet ... so let me a few days to make it more understainable and i'll send it to Drex in order to make it freely downloadable.


Originally Posted By: AlienJon
Concerning the name "no spin". I just want to point out that this makes sense from a particular frame of reference. Specifically if the spin is observed from a frame of reference oriented to the 2nd Center of Rotation, for example a fly sitting on the hand of the poi spinner. If on the other hand, we look from the frame of reference of a stationary audience, then there is spin, but it is "concentric spin", ie concentric to the hand path.

I think Zaltymbank tends to use the local frame of reference, and I tend to use the audience. I'm not saying that one name/concept is better or worse, just want to make sure people know they are the same phenomenon viewed from different frames of reference.


Actually i consider the segments of my model as a linkage which means that the angles and numbers of turns are counted relatively to the previous one. Thus, only [OI] is counted according to the absolute (or audience) reference because it is the first segment.

That type of reference enable to make sense to the numbers as used in the notation as explained before (first post of the topic) because there is a direct correspondance between these ones and the numbers of foils inside the patterns.

It also enables to extract some basic rules of composition (serial & parallel) with simple maths operation (addition and substraction).


A word about Zan's Diamond :

According to the video posted by [ Unregistered ] & Jon, Zan's Diamond and the AAS spinned by Mel in his Video are definitely not the same patterns.

As Jon explained it is based on linear version of hand CAP.
In terms of elementary patterns used for this CAP we have and AKA 1 -4 ; 3/4 1/4 and 1 -2 ; 1/2 1/2 (they are in cycloid case because it is the closest to the polygonal representation).
_________________________
°oO Fire Can Be Changed Place Oo°

°oO Juggling ... in all its forms ... enable us to be aware of the Geometry around us ... and even beyond Oo°

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#925063 - 09/11/10 05:58 PM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: Zaltymbunk]
bjrcboy Offline
journeyman

Registered: 29/08/09
Hand follows a 4p antispin flower while the poi does a 4petal antispin flower



Edited by bjrcboy (09/11/10 05:58 PM)

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#925069 - 09/11/10 10:34 PM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: bjrcboy]
Zaltymbunk Offline
newbie

Registered: 06/07/06
Loc: Gennes, Maine et Loire, France
The same pattern (Anti-AntiSpin(4,4) in Open-Open StartMode) in a graphical version :



If you want to see all the parameters, i have saved this pattern and Mel's pattern seen previously (Anti-AntiSpin(4,2) in Close-Close StartMode) as examples in the Trochoïd Engine(.xlsx) (or Trochoïd Engine (.xls))
_________________________
°oO Fire Can Be Changed Place Oo°

°oO Juggling ... in all its forms ... enable us to be aware of the Geometry around us ... and even beyond Oo°

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#931976 - 14/05/11 11:34 PM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: Mother_Natures_Son]
MELanholi Offline
multispinner

Registered: 16/01/09
Loc: Russia, Saint - Petersburg
WOW!!! I just find this topic!

Guys, I love you! I am so happy that I am not alone in this searchings!
Nice to see that you and me thinking in the same ways!

I want to know, you guys discover third-order motions same time with me? Or my video was first? (I just shocked, cause this topic looks like a copy of my notebook :D)

sorry for bad English! (
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No eat, no drink, no sleep, no f**k! SPIN! SPIN! SPIN!

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#932008 - 16/05/11 09:27 AM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: MELanholi]
aston Offline
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League

Registered: 02/12/07
Loc: South Africa
Hi Mel. smile

The first post is from 21/08/2010. I suspect it is one of those ideas that was found by a number of people all at once.
_________________________
'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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#932012 - 16/05/11 11:06 AM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: aston]
MELanholi Offline
multispinner

Registered: 16/01/09
Loc: Russia, Saint - Petersburg
Well, I think you right!
Anyway I an happy that I am not alone in my searchings (I am not only one theoretical freak :D)!
_________________________
No eat, no drink, no sleep, no f**k! SPIN! SPIN! SPIN!

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#932212 - 23/05/11 07:22 AM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: MELanholi]
Zaltymbunk Offline
newbie

Registered: 06/07/06
Loc: Gennes, Maine et Loire, France
Hello Mel. Nice to "meet" you !
Aston has right effectively i work on those 3rd order things for a few years now ... and i guess this is something "in the air" that more and more spinners are catching in their mind !
If you have anything to share on these subject please do not hesitate to use this topic as well.
I'll contact you on FB if ever we want to exchange on the notions later !
_________________________
°oO Fire Can Be Changed Place Oo°

°oO Juggling ... in all its forms ... enable us to be aware of the Geometry around us ... and even beyond Oo°

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#934730 - 26/10/11 06:48 AM Re: Third-order Motions (three circles composition) [Re: Zaltymbunk]
meshunderlay Offline
Juggler/Spinner

Registered: 15/09/08
Loc: Hicksville, New York, USA
Originally Posted By: Zaltymbunk
And now examples :



The first example is 1 4 ; 1 1 (if E would have run the other way : -1 -4 ; 1 1)
The second example is 1 -6 ; 1 1 (if E would have run the other way : -1 6 ; 1 1)



Heya, just a random question about this part specifically, and I'm sorry if this was covered already....

Shouldn't the first example be 1 5 ; 1 1 (4 petal inspin), and the second be 1 -5 ; 1 1 (6 petal antispin)?

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