Do You Think We'll Ever Run Out of New Moves?

If I'm staying to my "no moves" line, I would say that talk of moves is an articulate form of grunting and pointing to a nebulous event that instantiates all, but not only, some subset of the individuatable components. I think, theoretically, "meltdown-ish" or "weave-ish" would end up having to count as primitive predicates that couldn't be stated in terms of whatever other predicates it turns out we can individuate the extensions of. So not an abbreviation, more of a rhetorical gesture, if that makes sense.

I mean, there'd be a lot more moves I'd be confident we could individuate if we could talk about bodily movements and positions, but I don't think anyone would like the results if we had to do that by appeal to metric properties; the cardinality of our set of moves would be crazy, and would fail to individuate just the things we're trying to explain. There's more hope for a non-mathematical or quasi-mathematical framework in this respect, but I'm not sure what the non-mathematical stuff would be.

Not that I'm married to the Moveless Thesis at all; I just find it entertaining.

My english is very poor, but this topic is so interesting that i'm attempting...
I agree with sister eleven,and also i think that this the golden age of poi, or probably the beginning of that. This is a time of creation, when creation will stop, will start the time of tradition and conservation, and finally the end of spinning, i hope in a far far future. Now poi are simply a new toy, and we can discovery it, at the moment there are no limits, just practice=natural selection can give to spinning its ultimate form. And a lot of moves are coming, i'm sure, when guy that are starting now will have been seven or ten years spinning spinning wil explode completly! (i'm sure i mistaked a lot of verbs here ehehe)

Finally one more thing, mathematial spinning can be seen also like a fractal, each concept is deeply linked with all the other, and can be studied and emproved almost anlimitedly. At the same time, during our practice, we can amprove all the complessive structure of the fractal, enlarging our point of view. In this ipotetical system is allowed also a matematical description of single trick, without losting the total view, but is so much hard to explaine something like this that would be a wast of time.. lol

I hope that my english was good enough for this deep and probably boring post :-P

We will think we've learned all the poi moves one could imagine
Then shall come the A-poi-calypse to wash away the sins of all the spinners.
All we have gained will be lost and the few survivors will covet any scraps of knowledge we once possessed.
In time humanity will learn to rebuild. We will rediscover socks and ball chains with swivels, LED lights in plastic balls and the sacred, holy Kev-Lar that brings the gift of the Gods to the new humanity.

But then your basis must be something. Position? Centre of Spin? Direction?

Right, those sorts of things are fine; my point was that I don't think you can derive just the things we would be tempted to distinguish as "moves" on that basis. If "moves" did exist, no reductive analysis of them is available in terms of the most general things that do exist (angular momentum, driving style, symmetry, or what have you). They would be non-eliminable. This is in contrast with something like topology where you could ultimately say everything you could say in topological terms, in terms of set theory (with some sacrifice of brevity). Basically I wanted to be careful with the idea of abbreviation, since in the sense that topological notations are abbreviations of set theoretic notations, moves are not abbreviations of anything (if the No Moves Thesis is true).

I am too lazy to read the whole page and a half of oppinions.

I don't think poi will, it's evolving and changing, years ago people (AFAIK) were not doing contact poi, or metior/poi combo, or throws and whips etc etc, so as new doors open, new patterns and paths become possible. Then mix concepts with individual "move groups", more concepts become available. I have seen someone combine club spinning "moves" with poi, stuff I havn't seen anyone else do (not saying people havnt done it, but this particular stuff, was the first I have seen).

I will never know every pattern and be able to do every "move" or every combination, so wether there is eventually a limit or not, i really don't care, I doubt any 1 person will ever hit that absolute defining point where there is nothing left to learn.

People whoes spinning I admire (not going to float egos) generally tend to have their "path" they have taken, one may focus on tech, another on contact, another on flow, and they may be incredible at their chosen paths, but I would imagine, say to a flow spinner "do that contact poi", then they would be lost, and vise versa.

There will only be a limit when people stop being creative.... my 2p

But why not? How do you define a "move" then? I follow what you are saying, but I think that I would have to say you are wrong, probably because I am missing that.

Well that's really the question, innit? I don't define "move" because I don't think I can define it in any vocabulary I've seen. The point of my adopting the slightly absurd position I have is to shift the burden of proof onto those who think that they can individuate something like a 4x4 fountain from absolutely everything else in such a way as to defuse counterexamples. So tell me, how should I define "move"?

Hmmm.... Point taken. Will have to sit and think on that one.

Nulleamai understood my post.

Fractals innit.

let me know as soon as you do

As far as it ending i think its far from happening. Moves get modified and tweaked all the time which spawn ideas for new moves entirely. I mean at some point its gotta end but its to much for one person to do alone so essentially no it will never end

well unless you happen to learn the secret to immortality but that isnt happenin soon

Care to put money on that?

I am pretty close to cracking it

In theory you could do it, or at least enhance lifespans, by reducing telomerase degradation.

People need some kind of destination point... "at some point it will end." But it wont. Poi is art. Art is infinite. Circular patterns around a point will not end because of Pi. Thank you.

lmao:)

I got bored of poi a few years ago because i thought i had reached 'the end'. How wrong i was! there has been a bunch of new stuff since then (i stopped practicing around when hybrids first started being really explored) and recently i have come back to it.

My point is, you may think you have reached the end of what is possible, then someone comes along and blows everyone away and it starts all over again. There are discussions here on HoP about 'has poi stagnated?' with people asking when will there be something new. There is always something you havent thought about.

Contact staff however has pretty much reached its limit for a while (well for upper body stuff anyway). I havnt seen a truly new move in contact in a few years. The problem with contact is there are only so many parts of the body you can roll over and in only so many ways. Poi has the advantage that they spin through space in varying circles and therefore isn't as restricted by the human body.

Im not sure if there is an actual infinite number (in the true sense of the word) of possible moves but i think we have a long way to go yet

no, 'cause there are no "moves" there are only movements. How can you run out of something that was mostly comprised of an intangible thing like imagination in the first place? Given, there are the elements such as this way or that way in relation to this timing and what ever combination of planes they exist in for the moment... but as soon as you start building them up the possibilities become huge and the line between "basic move" and "variation" blurs rather quickly. Remember, we are all comprised of energy vibrations which on our level is perceived (but only perceived) as solid state. What happens to an electron if you shine a light on it to see where it is?

"Question every thing you think you understand...
A trick is just a move that you have polished a particular presentation of.
A move is just a pattern that you choose to commit to muscle memory as a base.
A pattern is a particular sequence of attributes over time, through space.
"Move Families" are Ven diagram collections of patterns that have certain attributes in common.
Attributes only exist in an individual's mind.
Minds seem to transmit information between each other (always with some noise in the signal, as stated by communication theory).

'Only from stillness does one have infinite possibilities' (0-point, no momentum from your local frame of reference).

Once you start to move you collapse infinite possibilities into finite ones that follow certain forms. By investing energy/momentum in a particular way, you impose limits on what you are doing. Limitations etch form out of no-form. Negative space defines form in space (so say the artists)." - Alien Jon

it goes on: http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/899717/AlienJon.html#Post899717

listen to this, especially towards the end:

"As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it." - Albert Einstein

Unless we're on a sphere.