Making a set of Buugeng (s-staves)??? Please Help

Unless you're making it for profit I don't think there's any problem with trying to make your own props. If kev can't afford one then Dai isn't losing any potential profit, and as long as he doesn't try to produce them from profit himself I can't see anything wrong with that.

As has already been pointed out, depending on your woodworking skills they'll not be the same quality (or even vaguely similar in shape or profile) so you'll want to upgrade eventually anyway.

Hundreds of people make their own props, it means you can have something unique, that's exactly as you want it (or at least close), and not have to pay as much.

That said, anyone who can afford them should buy em, and much respect to Dai for the effort they must have taken.

I agree completly with GT04. If you're not planning on selling them, by all means make the things I say.

Yes making and designing your own similar set seems fine to me but asking for people to reveal the technical detail that were probably worked on for a long time and give instructions on a public forum isn't fair.

They look more like two grass-hooks nailed by handle, but for higher plant,
each one s-steve is from one piece wood sliced on half. They have two
flat magnets to lock the handles.

--------------------------------------------

This is not instruction how to, this is only and only
highlighting of technical improvement.

do not replicate buugeng,

:R

So I now seem to get the

Correct me if I'm wrong:

Buugeng are S-Staff and have the difference that they appear like two sickels, joined together at the handles. The major difference to S-Staffs is the blade-like appearance of the two ends...

Question to those with (professional) experience (and who had them in their hands already), like you George: What exactly - apart from the name - you reckon can legally be copyrighted on this one?

Don't get me wrong please, I'm all for intellectual property, licensing, etc. and I don't favour 1:1 copies. Out of my personal experience I know what it takes to make a good and solid toy: It takes so much work, time, expertise, material and quality tools, that by the time you copied/ made your own, you could have just as well purchased it from the (original) manufacturer.

The one reason why some are able to make a (small) margin on some products/ toys is that they have the routine to make good quality products, buy material in bulk or mass produce them cheaply in China...

You can copy ones design 1:1 and live with the knowledge that by doing so so just diminished some heroes chance to survive by his own means - but you made it yourself... great.

My suggestion is that you either: improve or alter the design to a degree that makes it ... a unique design, something new.

It's like... copying the name of this website and registering it on a different extension... = ethically questionable and bound to fail under the laws of Karma.

Hence I am very much for development. Like "open source" for Vista or MS Office...

And now, after viewing the vid: they are amazingly beautiful... Dai you did a great job! Congratulations

So let me get this right: Dai got inspired by Moschen to design Buugeng?

Is that what it is? Enlighten me...

Honestly I just took a two by four and drew the general shape on it. Jig saw and sand. And Buuneng are not really his idea. They've been in use far longer than all of us have been alive. Aboriginals, remember? He's the one to popularize the set. Also, I've seen a couple of sites selling the same style. If anything, you should get mad at them.

Where have you found other s-shaped staves for sale? I haven't seen any other than the Buugeng for sale. I love the folding design Dai has and am happy to wait for the restock, but Im always curious to see what other makers are coming up with.

Frozeninferno, I am interested - how pronounced are the curves on your s-staves?

I'm not certain that we're all on the same page here, mate. Growing up in Australia, I've never really read about indigenous Australians performing waistwraps with hinged s-staves.

The two-by-four wood that you took - how did you jigsaw an s-shape with a straight piece of wood?

I easily bored with the direction that many 'exotic' firetoys take - I'm of the belief that Dai's creation constitutes genuine innovation.

Even if he did take the idea from Aboriginals

I'm also curious about what aboriginal item is simialar to the Buugeng and used in the same way. It kinda looks slightly like two boomerang stuck together but they were used for throwing and would not work if you stuck two of them together.

Well - triple that curiosity on Aboriginal origins of Buugeng...

Anyway I do believe that Dai made a wonderful design - just by looking at the pictures. Beautiful curves. And this is where I see a unique development from the S-curved staff that Moschen was and the rest of us are using...

Whereas the 'traditional handling' has got nothing to do with anything, as IMO 'slide didjes' are a unique invention too - even though it's one of the oldest instruments known to man.


If Buugeng are collapsible and still stable then it's a very nice feature in addition. In the past, staff have been collapsible OR stable (after a few drops however).

And if Dai has blended S-curves and Boomerangs - THAT IS a unique and genuine invention... IMHO

Thus I feel - only from what I have heard so far - that Buugeng is unique and therefore should definitely not be copied for commercial resale - unless there is a significant, unique development from Dai's Buugeng...

i have a pair of s staves. . .
does anyone know where you can see videos of them in use?
my s staves are made of some sort of metal pipe with coloured patterns on top.
if you get the 2 together you should basically get a perfect no8. if you find something like an old cable reel you could bend some copper around it. although you will need to find the correct size reel in order to get the correct sized stave

The lessons are here http://www.homeofpoi.com/lessons_all/teach/Library-Staff-S-Staff-Buugeng-4_48_0

i.e. Learn - Staff - S-staff/Buugeng

Or alternatively youtube.

I'd like to weigh in on the "plagiarism" thing.

I think it's not an unreasonable sentiment, but a little inaccurate. People aren't making their own hyperlights only because they don't have the technical knowledge or facilities.

I'd work on my own set if I had a shop, at least a closer one to work in than I have available now. I may considering buying them just to model my own. I wouldn't have intent to sell competing material, but I'd like simply suit them to my needs. Color, size, weight and texture etc. Maybe experiment in fire, etc. I'd like to have more than his selection at my disposal. Maybe I'd make some with more defined hooks, maybe some with lights.

If we had aspirations to sell I think there'd be a problem. You can't even think of it as ripping off an act's custom prop, as he is plainly okay with other people using them. I know it's a gray area, but especially since we can't even try them out, I'm exactly against people making their own renditions of the idea.

i just heard about them lastweek and read Dai's website. he got his idea from michael moschen. its all right here http://www.zaobab.com/buugeng_about.html

because of this, i reckon its fair game.
perhaps Dai got permission from moschen to use the idea to sell props - perhaps not. the difference is the fold-out design with the magnets, but he didnt invent that either. magnetic catches have been around for a long time. he just put 2 ideas together.

i dont think theres enough in it to constitute a new prop. and martial arts? its more visual arts really. certainly no more martial arts than staff or poi or any other juggling discipline.

as for selling, i think that should go back to the origiinal creator - be it moschen or whoever made the ones he was inspired by.

so im building my own - magnets arrived today. id be happy to post designs if people are interested

i appreciate that Dai is a performer and trying to make a living, but if its based on someone elses idea, then its a living hes not exclusively entitled to

Ah but the difference is:
He got his idea from MM, then developed it and made them his own. It's this design which I feel he is exclusively entitled too.
You're just copying his design as you don't want to pay for them.

You're obviously set on this and will do it regardless of what the HOP community feel, if/once you've made your props and people see you spinning them, will you offer to make them a set too?

i see your point, but as i said, i dont think theres anything new in it. the appealing thing to me is the s-shape, which i have designed myself. i dont have a pair to copy. im making them foldable purely for ease of transportation - not for the folded up stuff you can do with them, which doesnt appeal to me. you could say he has a right to that, the performance of it folded. im not into it and wont be performing it.
its a nice idea, the folding, but its been done. applying it to an s-staff and calling it a buugeng, i feel, is a little much.

yes i will keep going with the build. too far in to back out now! but as a previous poster said, quite a lot of work goes into it so it wouldnt be worth my while. i wouldnt be able to sell it at a reasonable price and i dont think Dai can either if im to be totally honest. but i wouldnt mind people using my drawings to build their own if they cant afford to buy them. but not to sell them. id need a cut .

the other thing with my design is its all based around one length, so i could describe to people how to build one proportional to their own arms. you can only get that right by building your own.

implaying around with a different way to make em collapseable. would that be alright, in your opinion?

but if HoP isnt happy with me sharing info. thats cool. its all the same to me.

see, there are LOADS of informations on "how to make your own"...

Maybe the guy who invented sockpoi should have had them patented, because obviously it had been new at the time. But then again this is not what the firespinning community THAT I experienced is about. Most people are ready to share openly.

Sure I'd like to have my designs protected, but then again this is only my mind telling me.

If you have time, but no money - why would you NOT make a set of collapsible S-staff for your self? If you learn the process and you come up with another mechanism, why would you NOT market and sell them? Yet if you only copy Dai's design 1:1 and sell them (maybe cheaper) - you certainly will find (cheap) spinners who will buy them off you. If you never pay a cut to the original designer, you certatinly will find your own (unique) ideas copied at some stage and receive the same treatment.

Treat others as you like to get treated - that's what I feel.

If you do S-staff and publish the design here, then I see nothing wrong with it. People are entitled to make their own. At the time they make it for commercial purpose, they need to consider for themselves how they are going to handle the situation. This is not yours - that's theirs.

I had a pair of Buugeng in my hands early this year and I could think of improvement - only I have no time to get there.

- the connection between the two halves need to be changed. it is possible for the screw to just get stuck and twist off at some stage.
- this connection needs to have an easy locking mechanism
- there needs to be a pair made from aluminum (not just wood) because of weight
- there need to be LED and fire Buugeng

However: the mere combination of two independent ideas really is an innovative process. THAT is what is "new" about it. S-staff has been around and magnets too - but they've never been in one place at the same time (published and marketed). Also it's not just an S-shape but it's more like two "shiva moons" (oh, a new brand name...) and that is the third aspect - connection to martial arts.

just my 1ct worth of opinion

interesting. i agree - i went looking for patents for a similar idea - the modular juggling system from passe passe. as far as i can see there is none. not even a copyright. perhaps its impossible to get it - and if thats the case it would be impossible to get one for buugeng.

but it seems like thats not whats being discussed here. legally, anyone could duplicate them, with no consequence. thats the angle i was looking at it from, but on a more personal level its not a nice thing to copy someone elses creation. but there opinion divides us again, as i dont see enough newness in it - he improved on an old design and im improving (hopefully) on his.

interesting about the handle - ive build plenty of things before, so i had carefully considered the joint. im toying with the possibility of having no bolt, just a shitload of magnets! so all four pieces can be attached to each other. might be a bit too gimicky tho. like the fold-out-ness imho.
but i have another couple of ideas for executing the collapseability.

also im using 12mm ply. its very light. ill be putting a strip of rubber along the blades to ease impacts (coz ill be throwin em) and add weight. tyre rubber is great for adding weight! aluminium wont last long with drops. youd want to keep those for non-throwy stuff.
fire and light ones will take a little thinkin about...

id be interested to see what Dai thinks about all this. im not out to make enemies, i just like to help people and share ideas.

I don't think its right to say that most people aren't just wanting to pay for them, i think the beauty of most of fire spinning is the effort you go to to make your own, beit poi or staff or buugeng. i think the fact that Dai wasn't actually selling them and that they were so hard to get for a while has spurred the questions of how to make your own. anyway shouldn't it be for everyone? its unfair to discriminate practising an artform because you can't pay the copyright, is that really what performing is about?