#867107 - 22/07/08 04:51 AM
Re: The voluntary human extinction movement
[Re: BansheeCat]
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had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Registered: 27/01/05
Loc: Edinburgh
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Hmmmm. I think the only people that don't realise they have a choice whether to breed or not to breed aren't in a position to be influenced by such a website.
Also, babies aren't individual needs. Nobody NEEDS a baby. A baby means responsibility and care and costs a lot of money and time.
The harm that's being done to the planet is not about to stop even if nobody had children now because there are already 6 billion people using oil and gas and radioactivity for energy and exploiting nature for food and trees.
I've never once had Jehova's witnesses on my doorstep, either. However, I've seen VEHMT followers rudely attack people with children on forums and in person. Given how small that movement is I'd say it's a significant number of VEHMTers being aggressive about communicating their views.
Seriously, I do think a public suicide would make more of an impression and increase awareness on a bigger level than that website. But I for one am happy to let people live (and have children if they choose to). Who knows, maybe one day we'll need young people to build space ships or rebuild some of the nature we've destroyed.
_________________________
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
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#867108 - 22/07/08 05:38 AM
Re: The voluntary human extinction movement
[Re: Birgit]
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veteran
Registered: 29/07/05
Loc: lost
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oh, i dont know, i think for the most part having children is a complete expression of perceived needs on the part of the mother and or couple-- need to have their genes carry on, need to fit in, need to have unconditional love,need to carry the family name, need to hold a relationship together, ... so many emotional and cultural needs push us to procreation.
I do agree with you that an internet site is not likely to reach the people that need the most shift in consciousness around this issue though!
It seems to me that not having children is a completely different thing then extinguishing life, yours, or someone elses. I am not sure why you dont think so? It is like comaring apples and whales, so I wont even go there, really, except to say the attention raised by mass suicide would not serve their educational/awareness purpose at all.
I have never, ever met someone from this group out in the world confronting people, I am sorry you have. That is disturbing.
I dont think, even if a whole massive evengelical bunch of people start following this belief system, that we have any need to fear a shortage of young people to build space ships or plant trees... We may have a shortage of materials to do it with and conducive environment to do it on...
_________________________
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
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#867109 - 22/07/08 06:05 AM
Re: The voluntary human extinction movement
[Re: BansheeCat]
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Pinker than thou
Registered: 04/05/06
Loc: A little pink world all my own...
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Written by :BansheeCat
need to have their genes carry on, need to fit in, need to have unconditional love,need to carry the family name, need to hold a relationship together, ...
...Need to access social housing, need to claim bigger welfare payments...
I worked in a school recently where most of the girls expressed "ambitions" that basically went "I'm going to get pregnant so I get a flat" (UK council housing provision is allocated on a 'points' basis, you get more points for being a parent. There are other ways to fiddle the system too, like being "homeless", so said teen girl gets pregnant, gets her mother to tell the council she's been thrown out of home - hey presto, enough points to leap to the top of the list and thus get a council-owned flat).
And sorry, but "need to hold a relationship together" is right up there among the very worst reasons for breeding.
Me, I don't think VHEMT need to go promoting their ideas, I reckon we're headed that way anyway:
Western trends are for bright folk to be having maybe one child per couple, somewhere in the couple's 30's. Meanwhile, the dim folk are having 5 or 6 kids per couple by the time they're 23 (OK, some of this might be extremes-for-effect). What happens long term? Bright folk die out, humankind regresses. [/deliberately provocative]
_________________________
A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the  up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)
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#867110 - 22/07/08 03:37 PM
Re: The voluntary human extinction movement
[Re: Birgit]
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enthusiast
Registered: 04/07/07
Loc: Perth
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Written by :Dr_Birgit
I've never once had Jehova's witnesses on my doorstep, either. However, I've seen VEHMT followers rudely attack people with children on forums and in person. Given how small that movement is I'd say it's a significant number of VEHMTers being aggressive about communicating their views.
Really? Because as it says on the website, it's not a group, only an idea. And the website says that you are not to press your ideas on others, that they don't believe in 'force feeding ideas at early ages' so hence the people who you call VEHMT followers do not abide by the idea, are hence not followers, but people who believe in a different cause.
So these people are human extinctioners, not VEHMTers, even if they call themselves VEHMTers.
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#867111 - 22/07/08 09:26 PM
Re: The voluntary human extinction movement
[Re: natasqi]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 16/05/05
Loc: York University
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@ PinkNigel: Banshee cat is giving examples of what other people might consider a reason for reproducing, not claiming that they are good reasons.
@ people claiming "This argument is null and void because we can't possibly exterminate all life on this planet", you seem to have a logic gap somewhere. The VHEMT aren't saying "We want to wipe out the planet" they're saying "we want to make 1 species (us) extinct, for the good of the planet as a whole". Are you seriously saying that we're incapable of doing serious harm to this planet just because we can't wipe out *all* the single celled organisms? That it's ok for us to continue as we are doing, because even if we make this into a radioactive, toxic filled pit, wiping out 80% of the planets Biomass and probably ourselves, then at least some molluscs on the bottom of the sea will survive?
@ Birgit, no-one in Western society needs a child. However in impoverished areas, with subsistence farming identical to Britain's pre-Industrial Revolution economy, multiple children are necessary because it is cheaper to raise a child than it is to pay someone to work for you every year. There is more work to be done than just 2 people can accomplish in a day, and the infant mortality rate is such that you need to have about 4 children to have good odds that one will survive into adulthood.
@ VHEMT, I believe you all to be cowards of the worst kind. Rather than trying to FIX what is broken (by taking jobs in sectors such as education, government, "Green" organizations and raising your own children with your ideals of societal ethics), you're just going to give up and float away crying about "What a pity it is" and "It was a foregone conclusion". The future is not written; Humanity can still turn around and surprise everyone (including itself) by taking a responsible attitude to power production, economics and violence. I don't see it as likely, but possible (maybe when the petrol runs out for good  ).
Edited by Sethis (22/07/08 09:29 PM)
_________________________
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
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#867112 - 23/07/08 12:40 AM
Re: The voluntary human extinction movement
[Re: Sethis]
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had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Registered: 27/01/05
Loc: Edinburgh
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Natasqi. :rolleyes:. I'm not here to pick nits with you. I have stated that I have been on a SIMILAR website before and wasn't on that one. The reason for that being that the people I've mentioned were being idiots. It's nice that those who are acting like that are automatically excluded from being considered a follower of the VHEMT idea, but unfortunately the people who put up that "rule" for something that's "an idea not a group" won't know and the "offenders" won't care.
Sethis, true, I did have Western society in mind. The subsistence farmers are those I'd have put in my "not in a position to be influenced by a website" group. I also couldn't agree more with your last statement.
Bansheecat, not having children is a completely different thing then extinguishing life. Exactly. I thought that if the aim was human extinction, that would be the way to go.
See, to me the whole thing seems pointless. Either you try to make a difference, in which case you DO push your ideas further because otherwise as you've stated there'll still not be a lack of young people. I didn't necessarily recommend a mass suicide, but if someone's SO convinced that humans should stop procreating, and thinks it important for the sake of the planet, AND wants to increase awareness it would at least show people they're serious and not just as Sethis says people who are too cowardly to take responsibility.
Bah. I should stop this now, it's just annoying me.
_________________________
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
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#867114 - 23/07/08 03:14 AM
Re: The voluntary human extinction movement
[Re: Sethis]
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addict
Registered: 26/05/05
Loc: Adelaide
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Written by :Sethis
The future is not written; Humanity can still turn around and surprise everyone (including itself) by taking a responsible attitude to power production, economics and violence. I don't see it as likely, but possible (maybe when the petrol runs out for good ).
I'm well aware that there are lots of conscientious people out there who probably could solve the world's problems given the resources, but sadly its never these people who have the power. Who's the most powerful man in the world? George Bush FFS. If u look throughout history it's an endless nightmare of corrupt governments, dictators, monarchies and churches. If you can think of any examples where the people in power aren't psychos, please, i'm all ears  .
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#867115 - 23/07/08 07:19 AM
Re: The voluntary human extinction movement
[Re: PsyRush]
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HOP Mad Doctor
Registered: 28/05/01
Loc: Brisbane, Oz
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Written by :PsyRush
So I have a bad day, get a gun, and go on a killing spree. Oh shucks. Some green-skinned dude living on an earth-like planet ten million light years from here will never care. Who cares, we're all going to die eventually anyway, it's not like it matters. </sarcasm>. Do you see my point?
Oh yeah. Fair enough, I suppose.
Although...why?
I mean, Nihilism followed to its logical conclusion would actually arrive at your point above. If nothing really matters, why not walk around carving people's faces up with a machete? Seems arbitrary to me to impose such a limit to a philosophy. Not that other philosophies don't have similar holes, but it is interesting to search out such inconsistencies and holes in various philosophies.
I guess that's why my philosophy is humanism, which is that we should do what is best for Humanity since it's pretty impossible to guess what is best for everything else.
Give you an example: if humans die, all dairy cows would be dead within a week. They are a completely domesticated species and they are wholly incapable of caring for themselves without humans around to milk them, feed them, etc. So is it fair for us to kill all the moo-cows by dying ourselves?
_________________________
-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
"My love waits there in San Francisco
Above the blue and windy sea
When I come home to you, San Francisco
Your golden sun will shine for me "
-Tony Bennett
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#867116 - 23/07/08 01:16 PM
Re: The voluntary human extinction movement
[Re: Doc Lightning]
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addict
Registered: 26/05/05
Loc: Adelaide
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Written by :Doc Lightning
Give you an example: if humans die, all dairy cows would be dead within a week. They are a completely domesticated species and they are wholly incapable of caring for themselves without humans around to milk them, feed them, etc. So is it fair for us to kill all the moo-cows by dying ourselves?
Maybe they should voluntarily not breed as well! *scratches head*.
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#867117 - 23/07/08 01:54 PM
Re: The voluntary human extinction movement
[Re: Doc Lightning]
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Rum-Swilling Combustioneer
Registered: 07/04/08
Loc: Macungie, PA, USA
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Written by :Doc Lightning
Give you an example: if humans die, all dairy cows would be dead within a week. They are a completely domesticated species and they are wholly incapable of caring for themselves without humans around to milk them, feed them, etc. So is it fair for us to kill all the moo-cows by dying ourselves?
Doc, I think the VHEMT answer to that would be, "They were domesticated by people and many live under deplorable conditions, and even the majority of those that don't rely on non-natural grazing pastures, and thus constitute another branch of human interference with the natural ecosystem. That those cows should die is unfortunate, but will be a first step toward regaining the natural balance."
Or, if you don't like that, "If the VHEMT plan is enacted, it will take several years for the last humans to die off, affording us enough time to see all domesticated animals live to the end of their natural life, but without forcing them to reproduce."
_________________________
Bouncing Baby Pipe!
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#867118 - 23/07/08 02:43 PM
Re: The voluntary human extinction movement
[Re: Birgit]
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enthusiast
Registered: 04/07/07
Loc: Perth
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Hey Dr_Birgit, don't get snarky or annoyed! Everyone here is being friendly and encouraging gentle debate... I said the previous because it's like damning communism or fascism because you don't like Hitler or Mao... This one person isn't necessarily representitve of the group as a whole. Written by :Dr_Birgit
See, to me the whole thing seems pointless. Either you try to make a difference, in which case you DO push your ideas further because otherwise as you've stated there'll still not be a lack of young people. I didn't necessarily recommend a mass suicide, but if someone's SO convinced that humans should stop procreating, and thinks it important for the sake of the planet, AND wants to increase awareness it would at least show people they're serious and not just as Sethis says people who are too cowardly to take responsibility.
Increasing awareness is not the same as pushing your ideas on someone or criticising people for acting against your beliefs.
People who follow the ideals of VEHMT may well be increasing awareness by blogging about it and discussing the ideas with friends, or maybe posting about it on forums, i.e. HOP.
They may also be involved in other organisations who they believe incourage others to think about the state of the world and the future, such as Red Cross, MPH or Oaktree.
Saying that people are too cowardly for not pressing ideas on people and rude for doing so... There are many campaigns that do not use either tactic. It is about awareness and education, informed choices.
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#867120 - 25/07/08 04:07 AM
Re: The voluntary human extinction movement
[Re: PsyRush]
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Stargazer
Registered: 20/09/03
Loc: here and now
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If those, conscious enough would stop breeding and only those ignorant continue to reproduce... well the whole thing to me sounds like: "I'm not going to vote - but I'm not going to like the new government." I only can say that especially those (spiritually) conscious and bright people, who do care for the planet should get children and enter the baby-matrix. Could be fun, too. 
_________________________
Carpe vitem ~*~ Humble guardian to the amazing three: Chellybean, Hamamelis and AmaraO... 
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#867121 - 25/07/08 03:51 PM
Re: The voluntary human extinction movement
[Re: FireTom]
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addict
Registered: 26/05/05
Loc: Adelaide
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#867122 - 26/07/08 09:19 AM
Re: The voluntary human extinction movement
[Re: PsyRush]
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poiromaniac
Registered: 11/07/07
Loc: liverpool, uk
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my idea to solve this particular situation would be to sterilise everybody at birth and not let them become fertile until theyve passed a test or something.
think about it would people really be as unnecessarily aggresive if they had no cajones? Hell i know id worry about my safety alot less if all those hormonally fueled idiots which seem to be breeding at an increasingly alarming rate and not really supporting the economy, environment or their fellow man where all turned into eunichs
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#867123 - 27/07/08 01:07 PM
Re: The voluntary human extinction movement
[Re: fanged_angel]
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HOP Mad Doctor
Registered: 28/05/01
Loc: Brisbane, Oz
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Written by :fanged_angel
my idea to solve this particular situation would be to sterilise everybody at birth and not let them become fertile until theyve passed a test or something.
Well, that was the Nazi eugenics idea. In reality, it might not be a terrible idea in theory. People automatically rubber-stamp anything the Nazis did as bad, but the fact is that, mass murder and stuff aside, the Nazis also did a lot of good things.
The problem with eugenics is a problem of execution. In theory, preventing certain people from breeding is probably a good idea. The problem is: who gets to decide who breeds and who doesn't? What measures do we use? Should having asthma disqualify you? Mental retardation? A heart condition? Your socioeconomic status? Your education? Your race?
If we can't even design an IQ test that accurately predicts something, how are we going to decide for people whether they should reproduce?
The problem is that eugenics is, at best, prone to a lot of bad science. What seems like a good idea now may turn out to be a terrible idea later. And at worst, it is prone to all sorts of abuse, propaganda, and pseudoscience.
Now here's an idea I could get behind: in order to have a child, you must have submitted a petition for a permit at least nine months prior to the birth of a full-term child. In order to qualify for a permit you must demonstrate that you have the financial means to raise a child, nothing more. This would ensure that every child is a wanted child. I maintain that a very large portion of the problems encountered in society today, especially the existence of the inner-city ghetto, can be attributed to unwanted teenage pregnancies.
The only issue is how you enforce this....
_________________________
-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
"My love waits there in San Francisco
Above the blue and windy sea
When I come home to you, San Francisco
Your golden sun will shine for me "
-Tony Bennett
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#867124 - 28/07/08 12:07 AM
Re: The voluntary human extinction movement
[Re: Doc Lightning]
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nut.
Registered: 05/01/06
Loc: Bouncing off the walls.
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Demonstrating the financial means I'm not convinced would be a good idea- I have some truly poor friends who have a much loved and wanted baby, but their lifestyle is largely not within the official economy- they do a lot of informal trading and growing food/collecting wild food, and buy very little- on paper it wouldn't look like they could raise a child, but knowing them I don't think they'll have any problems they can't get round..
It could be abused as a way to discriminate against alternative lifestyles..
I do think they current practical test for parenthood can be a bit too easy to be the sole qualification though- and the fact we now have access to reversible means of preventing pregnancy than the permanent means used by the nazis, it is a different prospect..
_________________________
THE MEEK WILL INHERIT THE EARTH!
If that's okay with you?
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#867125 - 31/07/08 01:33 AM
Re: The voluntary human extinction movement
[Re: Old-User--25357]
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Stargazer
Registered: 20/09/03
Loc: here and now
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_________________________
Carpe vitem ~*~ Humble guardian to the amazing three: Chellybean, Hamamelis and AmaraO...
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#867126 - 31/07/08 06:03 AM
Re: The voluntary human extinction movement
[Re: FireTom]
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HOP Mad Doctor
Registered: 28/05/01
Loc: Brisbane, Oz
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