#865774 - 26/06/08 07:00 AM
Why we need NATIONALIZED healthcare.
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HOP Mad Doctor
Registered: 28/05/01
Loc: Adelaide
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So I have now worked as a physician in two different countries with nationalized, single-payer systems. These are the U.K. and Spain. In both countries, the system has its drawbacks and faults. There are delays to receive care, there is bureaucratic run-around, but one thing there is NOT is denial of service. The NHS and the Spanish healthcare systems have nowhere to punt their patients and thus have to take care of them.
I have been told that my healthcare was "inactive" three times this year. I have been charged an inordinate amount of money. I have been denied essential medicine. And if there is more than one payer, they are going to try to punt their expensive patients.
_________________________
-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
"The Bay Area is so beautiful, I hesitate to preach about Heaven when I go there." -Billy Graham
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#865775 - 26/06/08 07:35 AM
Re: Why we need NATIONALIZED healthcare.
[Re: Doc Lightning]
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the henna lady
Registered: 15/12/00
Loc: WNY, USA
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I think any US citizen will agree with you, but the medical insurance and pharmecutical industries like their money way too much.
So, here's the question...how do we get one, other than by skipping country (which is actually my plan)?
_________________________
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
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#865777 - 27/06/08 03:32 AM
Re: Why we need NATIONALIZED healthcare.
[Re: Doc Lightning]
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Niraffe
Registered: 17/03/06
Loc: Up north
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Theoretically, nationalisation is a great idea. And I couldn't agree more with your reasoning. I feel lucky to have been brought up in a country where we have an institution like the NHS. However, it's funded through taxes, and with the increasingly aging population making more demands on the health service (and not paying taxes through well-deserved retirement etc) it is stretched to breaking point. For example, the last time I was ill and needed to get a doctors appointment, I was told I would have to wait for at least 4 weeks. My brothers girlfriend was in the hospital to have a baby 2 months ago, and they kicked her and the wee one out the next day. Which probably would have been fine, had the baby actually been feeding.  They saw that (it was documented on her chart) and ignored it for bed space. Negligence at it's finest. And these are just 2 minor examples. People are dying because they can't get treated with the current health systems in this country, we pay taxes for a health service that is essentially non-existant for people under the age of 60, and the people that do get admitted to the hospitals are frequently contracting infections due to poor hygiene and overcrowding. One of my friends from school died because of this. All I'm really trying to say is - I agree that it's better to get the poor treated. But you'll still be fighting to get your treatments. And nationalisation of course means they HAVE to treat you. But in some cases, you can be waiting years. In fact, I've been on a physiotherapy waiting list for the past 4 years. Still haven't heard anything. And don't expect to for another 10..... 
_________________________
"Lots of beeping. And shaking and tinfoil." Chelly
"Are you sure it's a genuine test and not a robot heroin addict?" Cantus
---set free by the rather lovely FireTom---
--(right arm owned by Fyre)--
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#865778 - 27/06/08 08:21 AM
Re: Why we need NATIONALIZED healthcare.
[Re: Chelly]
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HOP Mad Doctor
Registered: 28/05/01
Loc: Adelaide
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Written by :Chelly
Theoretically, nationalisation is a great idea. And I couldn't agree more with your reasoning. I feel lucky to have been brought up in a country where we have an institution like the NHS.
However, it's funded through taxes, and with the increasingly aging population making more demands on the health service (and not paying taxes through well-deserved retirement etc) it is stretched to breaking point.
People keep on bringing up the cost issue.
The United States spends $4,271 annually on healthcare per capita. The UK spends $1,675.
The U.S. does a couple of things that increase healthcare waste. First of all, we don't ensure everyone, meaning that regular health examinations and preventative care are not performed. And then people without insurance come into the ER with a heart attack and the cost goes to the taxpayers. Then there the multiple insurance companies with their bean counters who do nothing but try to deny care. That wastes money. As do expensive therapies given for legal reasons and not medical ones. And then there is futile care. We spend millions of dollars on patients with no reasonable hope of survival because we're afraid of getting sued.
There is a happy medium between not spending enough and providing adequate and timely coverage to those who require it. I think that maintaining privatized hospitals and privatized physicians is a good idea because it will allow individual centers to tailor their services and procedures to suit their respective patient populations. I also think that honest, cost-based reimbursement will encourage superior care and higher efficiency.
But there must be only one nationalized insurance provider, because if there is more than one, then there is such a thing as "not covered." I propose a national healthcare system that is free and public, like the schools. If people would like healthcare with bells and whistles, they can purchase private insurance supplements.
I believe in nominal copays for utilization of urgent/emergent healthcare. It forces people to think twice before going to the doctor for a trivial issue. I believe in them for medicines (up to a certain yearly cap). It prevents people from going to the doctor for everything.
I believe that we can provide quality care to all Americans, and I believe we can do it for about $3,000-$3,500 per capita.
_________________________
-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
"The Bay Area is so beautiful, I hesitate to preach about Heaven when I go there." -Billy Graham
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#865779 - 27/06/08 08:53 AM
Re: Why we need NATIONALIZED healthcare.
[Re: Doc Lightning]
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Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Registered: 21/07/03
Loc: Angel's Landing, USA
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I think the worst part is that a lot of people I know don't go to the doctor because of (INSURANCE) monetary issues, but then when it all goes to [censored], people end up calling 911 and while they may foot some of the costs, the taxpayers have to foot the rest.
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To do: More Firedrums 08 video? Wildfire/US East coast fire footage LA/EDC glow/fire footage Fresno fire <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />
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#865780 - 27/06/08 09:47 AM
Re: Why we need NATIONALIZED healthcare.
[Re: KaelGotRice]
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HOP Mad Doctor
Registered: 28/05/01
Loc: Adelaide
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Yep. And because there is no automatic safety-net healthcare to which everyone is enrolled, free-of-cost, they rack up astronomical healthcare costs.
_________________________
-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
"The Bay Area is so beautiful, I hesitate to preach about Heaven when I go there." -Billy Graham
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#865781 - 27/06/08 10:21 AM
Re: Why we need NATIONALIZED healthcare.
[Re: Doc Lightning]
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old hand
Registered: 29/07/05
Loc: lost
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Canada is nationaized, though certain sectors of the population are apparently working hard to degrade and dismantle that system and sell medical care as a commercial commodity.
National health care only works if all economic groups of the population are motivated to invest in it. Right now, the wealthy, think they can get better care by just buying it personally,( they probably would, actually) and are no longer interested in the concept of community care and subsidizing the costs of those on the lower income spectrums... But if those people opt out, the resources needed to provide basic care to the remaining people, are not sufficient. There is a lot of debate about the concept of a two tiered medical system.
We are desperately short of regular general physicians in some communities, short of nurses, and specialists too( due to health care cut backs begun a decade ago, we see the consequences now) . I waited a year to see a rheumatologist. I was in severe pain and the permanent joint damage was accelerating due to the constant inflammation... but I still had to wait.
I really do not understand why anyone can think running hospitals and clinics as private for profit businesses is sensible. If there is profit to be made, why not keep it in the public sector, to support the community needs? Why would private inherently be more efficient than public? Bizarre.
Due to a general state of apathy, Canada will likely not offer a national medical coverage for much longer, and we will have to see what private for profit is like...it has already begun. Not looking forward to it.
** oh, and even when covered, many people still do not do much in the way of preventative care. In fact, the doctors themselves rarely make time for it...
_________________________
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
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#865784 - 30/06/08 09:15 AM
Re: Why we need NATIONALIZED healthcare.
[Re: Doc Lightning]
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Registered: 27/01/06
Loc: Wisconsin
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The state government has screwed up our welfare system, the last thing I'd want to see is them have any hand in a national healthcare system. They can't even manage specialized funds like for rehab or our state sponsored insurance fund
_________________________
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
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#865786 - 03/07/08 07:56 AM
Re: Why we need NATIONALIZED healthcare.
[Re: Doc Lightning]
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Never Gonna Give You Up
Registered: 26/05/04
Loc: They seek him here, they seek ...
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I don't really know what the opinion of Micheal Moore is around here... But I just watched Sicko and it was a bit of a (albeit biased) eyeopener. What I saw there is basically the same I'm reading here and, from a NHS patient's point of view, it weirds me out a little. Other than greed and fear of a "communist-style" medical care system... what is the real reason that America doesn't have a NHS-like system? 
_________________________
The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."
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#865788 - 03/07/08 11:37 PM
Re: Why we need NATIONALIZED healthcare.
[Re: Doc Lightning]
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Niraffe
Registered: 17/03/06
Loc: Up north
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Very true. I saw an interesting idea on the news last night that doctors were putting forward for the NHS. Such as increasing the taxes on health service for those who want better care/more expensive medicines and treatments (such as the cancer medicines that the NHS won't currently fund). A kind of top-up fee if you will. Not necessarily a bad idea. However the public will be up in arms at any thought of a tax increase in the current economic climate.... Some older info from a couple of weeks ago: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/...nts-849212.htmlhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7445593.stmI can't seem to find any info on the report I saw last night about reforming the NHS, I'll maybe have a further look later. I want to get a job in Spain when this PhD is finished. Better diet, better weather, better (and fairer) healthcare, and the chance to learn another language. What more could any self-respecting person working in healthcare want? 
_________________________
"Lots of beeping. And shaking and tinfoil." Chelly
"Are you sure it's a genuine test and not a robot heroin addict?" Cantus
---set free by the rather lovely FireTom---
--(right arm owned by Fyre)--
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#865790 - 05/07/08 12:10 AM
Re: Why we need NATIONALIZED healthcare.
[Re: Stone]
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currently mending
Registered: 15/07/03
Loc: Bristol
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Written by :chelly
People are dying because they can't get treated with the current health systems in this country, we pay taxes for a health service that is essentially non-existant for people under the age of 60
God knows what you've been going to the doctor with if you can't get seen... There may be lengthy waiting lists for breast implants and IVF but they're not exactly essential treatments... And you can still get them for free on the NHS.
I'm in my twenties and recently spent a couple of weeks in hospital. And I was damn happy that when I was lying on the floor with my leg smashed to pieces after being hit by a car that I knew the NHS would come along, scoop me up off the road and sort me out for free (ok I really wasn't very happy at that moment in life...but it was relieving to know that people would come and make it better) . Since getting out of hospital whenever I've needed to see a doctor; for more painkillers, for different painkillers, to sort out infected fracture blisters (antibiotics and changing dressing) I've always been able to see someone on the day I ring up free of charge. I've also been going to NHS physio, initially twice a week, now only weekly, but thats still an hour of someone's time spent one to one with me free of charge...
I've also got a teenage sister who suffers from lupus and who's has a lot of hospital and doctor's appointments for the last four or five years... If they'd have had to pay for her treatment my parents would be bankrupt by now. I very much doubt that my sister would be able to get health insurance given her general ill health...
I've got two female friends who've just hit recently hit 30, have had smears and found that they needed surgical procedures to remove pre-cancerous cells. If they hadn't had free check-ups to make sure they were ok they might be in a very bad way by now...
I could go on and on with stories about young people I know who would be  if it weren't for the NHS. Perhaps with private health care the lucky few who could afford good health care would have had better treatment, but a lot of them (I don't tend to know massively wealthy people) wouldn't have got treated, and wouldn't be the people they are now if we didn't have free health care in the UK.
There are many things I loathe about my country. Despite its flaws the NHS is one of the things I love.
_________________________
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
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#865791 - 05/07/08 02:38 AM
Re: Why we need NATIONALIZED healthcare.
[Re: dream]
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nut.
Registered: 05/01/06
Loc: Bouncing off the walls.
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Generally, I agree- a few weeks ago, I had a pretty horrible eczema flare-up, and they couldn't have been more helpful- I wasn't registered with a doctor, or anything useful, but I still got to see someone within a few hours (I did just miss the pharmacy closing, so didn't get the treatment 'til the following day, but that's not the NHS's fault  ) However.. My mum has had a really bad experience- with suspected Carpal Tunnel syndrome, where I think it took a year from first complaint to getting a final diagnosis- not even treatment..(it's a nerve trapped in her neck, apparently, and inoperable.. so they can just put her on anti-inflammatories, and hope it doesn't get worse). It was so bad she couldn't sleep more than about 2 hours without having to wake up and massage feeling back into her hands, she had to basically change jobs- not really a minor condition. They lost her notes, they cancelled appointments.. generally messed around a bit. It does seem to be the case that it can be a bit hit-and-miss whether you get really prompt care or .. well.. not..
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THE MEEK WILL INHERIT THE EARTH!
If that's okay with you?
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