Choreogrophing a Routine- Guidelines, Tips?

Okay so hopefully this is the right forum and right place to discuss this. I searched and couldn't find a thread specifically on the how to's of choreographing a routine.

In the past I really didn't have much interest in a set routine, but after viewing certain routines that, to my view, must have been choreographed, and also looking at the difference between free-form and choreographed movements, I've decided to undertake a choreographed routine. I mean just looking at some of yuta's videos, obviously he's not just a great spinner, but there is a great organization to the movements that you don't see in free-form dancing. Also, part of this inspiration came out of a conversation I had with a gentleman who helps ice skaters choreograph performances (talking olympic level athletes).

Based on the conversation I had which spurred this, what I personally have done is just started a text file on my computer, and just started typing out moves to flow from one to another, thinking about how it would look in my head, and kind of working it out. (This routine is for me solo.) I made a list that I think will take up about 4 minutes or so. I then printed it out, and next time I went outside just put the list in my pocket and started working on move-to-move. I didn't think of a song to do this with, I'm searching for a song that might fit what I'm trying to do. And currently I'm working on getting the routine down, and it's a helluva lot harder than I thought.

However, I think it would be instructional for myself and any others who have absolutely zero dance training, if anyone who knows about choreography would chime in with some tips or guidelines on how to go about choreographing a routine.

So I was wondering: What do those of you who do choreographed routines do, how do create your routines, what is the mindset, how do you organize the routine, how do you practice, etc.?

And any other tips or resources.
Thanks!

try using a song as a starting point, so you have a base.

then you can use different sections of the song to frame different sections of your routine, and just go from there

I've gotta agree start with music and build upon with some free spining just to get a skeletal structure of a routine and then work from there to refine it.

BTW try not to choose your favorite song because you will have to listen to it so many times that you'll get sick of it.

I'll have to agree with darkfyre and simta as well.
I usually choose a song, and start spinning to it with the prop i'm going to use, when i find interesting combos that go along with the music i write them down to have my high points, and then link these up using other moves.
if you have access to a camera film your routine while working on it to get feedback.

We have a choreography workshop at Southern Lights this year. being run by flame oz so that will be interesting to watch.

Uhm, Ive never made a spinning choreograph, but i danced for 14 years, and to make up our dances for shows etc, we started by finding the right music, we thought about what mood or message we anted to convey, whether it was to be lively or slow, and what sort of style (eg, for spinning you kind of need something with a rather steady beat, at a tempo you can keep up for the full song)

Then we would just play the music over and over and when we heard a bit we thought we could do something really good with we'd work that bit out, then put all the bits together and work out how to link it up, just changing the main chunks slightly to make moving from one bit to another easier (eg, if for the chorus you found a really good set of moves, and then for the bridge you found another set of moves, but te didnt link well together, for the chorus after thebridge we'd change the first bar or two of movements of the chrous, or the last bar or two of the bridge so that it would flow easily)

and then we just did it over and over and over

Here's something I posted a while back on choosing the music for a routine - then i've added a bit specifically about choreographing routines:

1) Know your audiance.
Grannies/kiddies aren't going to appreciate thumping psytrance/techno or metal. 20-somethings at a rave probably won't dig on classical and anything with offensive language is an instant "No" for any public show.

2) Follow a theme.
If you're in costume/character, choose a piece of music that matches it.

3) Know the music.
Obviously, with repetitive playing you'll get to know any track, but for choreographing new routines I find it helps if you know the song beforehand.

4) Try and vary things.
Psytrance being a classic example - it's all at the same tempo, same level and has very little variation. Easy to choreo too, easy to stay in time, but very dull for the audiance. Try and choose a piece that has quiet sections, loud sections, slow bits, build-ups etc.

5) Choose the ending
I try and avoid pieces that fade out. A big climax is much easier to finish on.

6) Like the track.
You're going to hear it so much, don't choose something you hate from the start.

7) Get the right length
Either by editing the track, or by choosing one the right length from the start. If your track last 8 minutes with 3 minutes build-up, cut some time out the beginning.

8) Overall length
One person, doing one-prop, no-matter how good they are, will struggle to keep an audiance entertained for more than 5-minutes, maybe 6 if they're really good. Unless you're writing a multi-prop/multi-person routine, i'd try and keep it around 5 minutes.

9) Lyrics.
This is just a personal one - i try to avoid tracks with lyrics in, or at least with english lyrics in. Unless you're "acting out" the song in places, lyrics are quite distracting, but also they might be singing/rapping about something completely at odds with the performance. Comes back to themes...


I tend to work out how long a routine we're doing - then go into WMP/Winamp or whatever and sort my music library by length - if it's a 4-minute show,i'd look from about 3:50 to 4:30 and see which pieces suit the show. Or if there's a track i know will work but is too long, use a program (I reccomend Audacity - simple and free!) to edit it down.

If you're going for a "one show fits all" routine - ensure the music will work at any event. Otherwise you end up having a different routine for different situations - which is fine, but a lot more work

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

When it comes to actually choreographing the routine, I play through it a few times with props in hand and see if any moves naturally go with any particular bits of the music.
If there's any set pieces I want to get in, find a section of music that fits with it.

Depends on what you're writing for, but generally try to keep the intro slow and build up. If you come out at full-speed, full energy you're going to have to work really hard to maintain the energy/excitement level. A slow start done well builds suspense (a slow start done badly is just dull however... it's a fine line ).
Be brave - to an audiance, really slow, simple movements, e.g. slow pendulums work really well. Don't feel you have to be doing tricks the whole time, you don't even have to spin the whole time.


There's different kinds of routines which suit different tastes - some try and convey a story, others are very dance/movement based, others are very technical/trick based. Choose what works for you.

The most important thing, which I've now started working out before even thinking about moves, is movement around the stage. Don't get caught writing out a complex series of moves and staying rooted to the spot - work out a series of movements across the stage.

For longevity, try and keep it flexible to, so you can do it on a larger/smaller stage with/without fire.

The above is all written with poi/staff in mind - for something like fans or palms which are much more dance-based you'll need a much stronger dance/movement planning behind it - I find these much harder to write, mostly as mentioned above as you have to really restrict yourself to simple shapes which are dull to you, but look great to an audiance.

Finally, it's worth pointing out, that most of the time you won't be performing to fellow poi/staff/jugglers/hoopers so don't feel pressured into going for the hardest tricks. Even if you are performing to other manipulators - they appreciate a good show just as much as an uber-tech demonstration.

"One person, doing one-prop, no-matter how good they are, will struggle to keep an audiance entertained for more than 5-minutes, maybe 6 if they're really good. Unless you're writing a multi-prop/multi-person routine, i'd try and keep it around 5 minutes"

apart from the above which is nonsense i agree with durbs,
but for the best advice check out flame oz because they have a great track record of many choreographed routines,if they were jugglers their name would sound italian

Oi!
Maybe it's just me - but I don't think i've ever seen someone spin for just poi, or just single staff for more than 5 minutes without them repeating themselves or running out of ideas.
Unless, it's like a street show - in which case there's lots of filler to take it up to 15-20 minutes - but street shows are a completely different kettle of fish.

But agree, FlOz do write very good routines.

As an aside, I also find it much harder to write solo routines than group ones...

to Durbs (with Marston's caviat... I think I entertain people with nothing but poi for 5 mins... but I'll give you, not just anyone can pull attention that long)

Basically reiterating: my method is choosing a song, and spinning to it several times. If you pick a song with good varied beats, you'll find different moves go with different beats. A heavy 1, 2, 1, 2, beat will lend well with moves where the poi are in unison, faster beats will work for alternating moves. Start with a good song. Well, really, just listen to Durbs.

i reckon you should all come to mine, dave knox (Flame Floozie), ros (FNF) Kyle and megs 'routine building' workshop

If it was not on an inconvenient continent....

Chimaera's routine is an example of a story-based performance. There's some vids on YouTube, or if you saw it Play, Southern Lights..,. Though this is more a story through several set pieces rather than within one routine.

Or more simplistically it's character based - contact juggling routines for example often involve heavy characterisation.

I never choreograph if it's only me spinning but routines with others always look good to the audience.

So I think I started making routines by trying to write down all our moves and working it from there, but I decided to go back to basics.

How am I going to start?
Spinning forwards? spinning backwards? complete spins or one spin then stall?

and I usually think of things in 4 or 8s.

So circle in front for four, circle other way for four, circle at hips and shoulders for eight,
turning circles at hips and shoulders for eight...
into weave (and then I'd think of all the weave variations) so back to front weave with over head
the front to back with flowers (remember to repeat because most audience will miss something then say "that was cool, mum, look at that" and you're not going to do it again.
then five beat or whatever...
Then Verse-->chorus. CHANGE IT
So stall/wrap/whatever and do butterfly
So butterfly,, then behind back/over head... then something else


That's how all our basic routines started. and then everyone learnt them and we could improve/change things as we got better. But, we do still go back to this first routine a lot because, we do gig for so many different audiences, no one is gonna see the same thing.

So I think it's great to have routines to fall back on. I also find lots of spinners forget all the moves they can do as soon as the poi are lit. They forget horizontal planes, they forget they can kneel or do things between legs... But if you make a routine like this a practice it, then if you suddenly freeze or freak in a performance, it is likely you'll have muscle memory and will naturally flow onto something new, not continue doing weave cross for 2 minutes.

Good luck!

Durbs, if you have a theme and find a song that fits the theme, then wouldn't the lyrics be included in that?
Personally I find lyrics can help the emotion of the song and to convey the theme with more power.
Same goes for songs with varying beats.

I do agree with your list other than that.

I tend to be more methodic. I do the same, choose the song, listen to the song and I envision moves in my head rather than do them, that way I can get more feel for the song rather than getting lost in the movements.

I also take a technical count of how many beats are in the song and I chart them out. For example:
Intro- 3 cts of 8 slow tempo
bridge- 1+2+3+
Fast tempo- 6 cts 8 +4

This actually helps me see the music too. It lets me know what I'm up against.
Then I fit moves into it, and write it all down and adjust as needed.

This allows me to save them and when I send the video in for copyright, it also allows me to send the paper with it for extra insurance. But that may be a US thing, I don't know.

Good luck!

Some good tips. I agree with starting off slow & building up on moves. I also like to think about my entrance and exit, or start and finish. If there is a sudden ending to the music I finish on stage, and if the music fades out I plan an exit. I suppose I take my dance training for granted, but presentation is important to me so I'd advise people to consider every detail.
Head movements, foot work, poses, turns, jumps, contrasting moves etc.
But most importantly, don't forget to smile! It's nice to see a performer who looks like they're enjoying themselves.x

Great thread, I've only just read it.

I've come in search of information about writing routines because I'm pretty much a freestyle spinner myself, it's a personal preference thing but were I to actually make a video, I'd definitely choreograph it because, like in the OP, they just look better than your average freestyle video and all the information in this thread is top notch.

Thing is, I've been tasked with writing a routine for three poi spinners ( maybe two poi and a staff, I'll find out next week ) Not that the toys matter that much, nor the actual moves either, I'm more interested in learning just how to write a group routine.

First a bit of background. I've been performing in a five member group for the last four years and there's always been an element of something I'll label as "creative stress" and just leave it at that, which has been somewhat...nay, a real hindrance to our group evolving as a performance troupe.

Now there's an opportunity to put that creative stress behind us and move forward in a Flame Oz like fashion.

We have some routines ( like a two person flaming sword battle, and a staff duet ) that we want to keep but the rest of the 20-25 minute show is pretty much up for a rewrite.

We're ( well I'm ) thinking a slow start with fans, then introduce a couple of more toys toward the end of the fan "set" with a sort of overlap between the different props coming on stage to make up one long show that appears more cohesive than the individual sets we have now. I'm fully expecting performer's ego ( diva ) issues with this approach, but I can deal with that.

One issue I'd like to overcome is this idea of wanting/needing to perform in a proscenium style when experience has shown that the vast majority of our shows are done in the round, or at least thrust.

I'm expecting resistance to this idea because, when I tried to introduce a routine based on in the round ( and other ideas I had that were a little "different" , like taking size and position of the circles into consideration to create multi person based patterns ) there was enough resistance to the ideas that I bailed on the idea all together.

Another problem we have is wasting time kicking around ideas that. for all intents and purposes, are rather unrealistic. Like designing costumes that are pretty much impossible to spin in, introducing props that we don't own and are both expensive and complicated to come up with ( like fire cannons ) and "telling stories" which, when it comes right down to it is very difficult to do using this medium.

Wow..is this ever sounding whiny...yes, I'd like some cheese please.

Anyway.

One problem we have is music....From a practical perspective it's not worth investing in a sound system that's powerful enough to be heard over the sound of the flames and reach a large audience. There's just not enough money in this gig ( locally ) to make that investment worthwhile. Also, since we lack a private indoor rehearsal space, we're always practicing in parks or peoples yards, or parking lots, and blasting music is going to generate complaints...so choreographing to a song is most definitely out of the picture.

What do i mean not enough money ? I figure that in order to make a living off of spinning we'd have to do at least 400 shows a year, otherwise I'm keeping my day job.

One thing we do have to do is increase the overall effectiveness of our practice sessions. too often we sit around bombing fatties and wasting time kicking around these "ideas" so that by the time the session is over, we've only used a small percentage of out time to "move forward" Example...last night I invested a total of four hours to actually do about 20 minutes of practice, next week I'm thinking about showing up wearing big boots and carrying a riding crop

This is he point that i have to confess having absolutely no knowledge about what I'm actually doing...What ??? me a choreographer ? But I have talked to several "dance experienced" people about these ideas, and all seem to agree with me so I know I'm not way out in left field with my ideas.

My over all idea is to stay with rather simple moves until we can get the time and effort commitment to do the constant repetitive practice that we'll need to make involving more complicated moves practical ( or we can just be sloppy ) so I'm thinking of writing a basic framework involving performer's positions on stage and the basic position of "the circles" which can be tweaked with more complicated moves if the whole idea works out.

I'm not expecting too much resistance to the moves I have in mind as most people have seen me spin them during our freestyle jams. They're mostly moves and combinations I've come up with over the years, more variations of things I've ripped off from videos, plus things I've thought up on my own. Combinations...yea, that's the word.

So HoP ers...am I on the right track here, with working out an in the round framework involving "simple" moves until the timing is spot on then evolving it from there ?

Or should I just hire a professional choreographer and get he/she to do it for me ?

I think what I said above applies... but I'll elaborate.

Our troupe also has the problem that our practice time is also the only time we see each other during the week, and as we're really good friends, there is time spent catching up and telling stories.

I think you have to start thinking what you want in each routine and the music.

We usually start with the music, make a mix that has different beats and tempos (one of my favourite starts with african drums and includes I feel love by Blue Man Group and Du Hast by Rammstein.)
Then think about the 'feel' of the song.
In my troupe (4 guys, 2 gals) we'd think which are the 'girly' songs, which are the 'tribal' songs, which sound like a battle, etc.

So usually there would be a 'girly' song that is upbeat for me and Ren to do a poi routine to.

We then usually make a .. i don't know what to call it, but breakdown of mix and each song, to add cues (if you aren't going to be able to hear the music, this probably won't matter)
but for example.
0:00 - Blah starts - Ren and Nat enter with Fingers
0:30 - Drumming is added - Stu and Byron enter with sticks
1:15 - chorus stops - Ren Nat off
1:45 - next song starts - Jed one with cannonballs.

So you et the idea. But we also include "music louder" and "chorus" and stuff, because we believe that music for us is really important.

And then We'd say "ok, it goes verse, chorus, verse, chorus, verse) so then we'd decide the 'base' of our moves. like... weave, butterfly, weave, butterfly, corkscrew/horzontal plane" and we'd move on from there.

So this routine would be one where we're both facing the audience and doing the same move (though usually mirror) and we might decide to change sides halfway through or something.

So that's one type of routine.


Other things we've done is had a bit of a story, so for a wedding once I was wearing white and the guys were wearing black. I used mostly little things like fingers and then poi while the guys used big staff and kinda 'competed' for me but escalating in impressiveness.



I guess if I was going to choreograph the poi poi staff routine... I'd have to look at the person's heights and genders as well. ( I love symmetry) I'm sure the poi people could make a routine or at least sync a couple of moves. Staff moves can also look like poi moves at times and adding this in a key moments will add that bit of interaction.

If it was me, I'd start something like staff first, doing low key spinning... poi comes out and lights off him, steps back... he burns off... poi do 'background spinning' until chorus, or verse or whatever, then they come forward, do routine, the move apart, staff comes forward to and they all do the same moves. (staff antispin=flowers etc).

And we always have continuous sets... Having breaks between things seems really foreign to us all. (though for 3 people we'd limit a performance to 15mins)

Re style of set up... sometimes proscenium works.. sometimes we've had to do routines back to back as we've been surrounded by audience (and then you have to rotate by 90 as well).
Ue your people can do things while on the ground, DO! Add multilevels etc.

I think we all make designs of things that are impossible. If only we had squillions of dollars to fund these!

I thnk whatever you do, it will be awesome. You're obviously not newbies.

to increase effectiveness at practice, we know have newsletters with "what Nat/Jed/Whatever" should do before next session and also what's gonna happen at next session. Have a plan like, a choreographed 3 minute show.

We also find that you should chat in the end of the practice, and the first half/hour or whatever is reserved just for spinning. if you get there and people are sitting down, you'll sit down. But if you get there and people re already spinning, you won't sit down.



Hope there is something you can take away from my babbling.!