A History of the Fire Arts

Cheers Frederick! If any of you wish to know a bit more about me, I am now on the introduction forum.

Mr. Reckless, if eveything is light, and one sees light as
God/Goddess, than all matter can be seen in a spiritual way.
Intention determines the degree and direction of all ways. If one's way is to use fire toys in a spiritual manner, who are any of us to discredit this intention? It will always be up to the individual. We can either agree or disagree with how it may apply to us.

On another subject; Does anyone have any historical 'facts' that can be proven or documented? I am getting some interesting information, but I need to have some sort of credibility attached to the info. if I am to use it.

Also, I can't help but notice a bit of sarcasm when you speak of Mr. Heart. Que' pasa?

And; There is another really nice website: www.performers.net
where I am starting to recieve some very credible info on lots of early fire performers. If you wish for me to keep you informed, let me know, and I will keep this thread alive.

Peace begins with me. The karma stops here!

Sarcasm regarding Mr Heart? It took you this long to catch on to it?

His claims have been... called into question repeatedly here. In fact a good number of people have a low opinion of him, especially after having met him. Not ME of course, because I have never had the pleasure, but it shouldn't be too hard to find some... opinions about him if you simply search for his name here...

I must agree with Bender with objecting to the idea that it has somehow been absorbed into "white" culture, for a few reasons.

First of all, we are not talking about a simgle origin point. Fire meteors from China, fire usage by Shieks (I know I just butchered it, but Im too lazy to scroll up), fire club swinging from India, Samoan fire knife dancing, and (not sure on this one... might actually be Samoan fire knives) fire batons from Hawaii. Object manipulation and juggling can be found in the histories of so many cultures its (arguably) impossible to trace it to any one place.

Second, it seems your looking for an entrance point into STRICTLY white culture (Im assuming that's what you mean, and simply not white-skinned...). What are you defining this as exactly? Mainstream Western Culture? America? Australia? Are you just looking for a crossover point between, lets say, traditional Maori Poi dancing and Poi dancing that has nothing to do with Maori fundamentals other than object manipulation? What about Samoan Fire Knife dancing, are we simply looking for the point where fundamental Samoan heritage and beliefs about the fire dancing exited because an outside took only the manpulation part of it? Or are you trying to find the first outsider to take part in these arts WITH the communities where they originated?

There's a lot of possibilities here. I would argue that modern poi dancing has virtually nothing to do with Maori poi dancing except for some fundamental physical movements. That art includes music, specific dance that tell stories, etc. etc. Ours just looks cool. For Samoan Fire Knife dancing... well go talk to some of them and see what their opinions are about what we do compared to their cultural heritage. My point is, GENERALLY where these things originate, what we do is seen as a completely alien thing, having lost the elements that make them a cultural heritage to those specific cultures.

In addition, what if you run into simply a Maori or a Samoan who embodied a more "white" culture attitude... is that then your "missing link"? Or is he not because he isn't white? And what about people who simply saw it on vacation, or something, and decided to go home and do it for fun.

I would say the best your going to do is to ask some of the oldest spinners around until you find a few that say this is how they became interested in it. There are some real old time spinners out there, and a few people here can point you toward them probably. However, I remain very skeptical about anything you may find. If your lucky, you may find cultural crossover points... say the first people to witness Samoan knife dancing, and Maori poi dances, etc. But I think that what you are trying to claim is not a valid claim for the reasons I have already pointed out: fire was an addition upon other preexisting arts, namely object manipulation. For ISOLATED cultures like Samoa and Maori... perhaps you can find a couple of the earliest spinners, but I doubt they will be white... maybe "white cultured" at best, if there is such a thing.

For instance when I started, I was just playing with a stick. One end happened to be charred from being in the fire, and WHOOM I had this great idea and went off to research it and see if anyone else did it. I found HoP and lost a great deal of my free time overnight I believe that this will be similar to many of the origin stories you may come across, and I don't think there is a single crossover point to find.

But good luck.

ALL OF THE ABOVE AND THEN SOME!!! You bring up some very valid points, i8beefy2, (strange name, by the way, who's beefy?). Are you a writer,also? For sure, a thinker.

My point: There have been sooooo many fire toys for decades, even centuries, that we know about. Fire clubs, batons, meteors,
Samoan fire knives, poi, etc..that have been seen by millions of people for a very long time. Why now does it become popular?,and why is this new trend so dominated by the staff and poi. And why so dominated by one perticular color? I have been to Burning Man three times now, and 99% of what I see being used in the fire conclave the night of the burn is either a staff or a poi played with by white people. Why aren't you learning to juggle fire clubs?, that's been around for centuries. How about fire batons?-at least 70 years now!
Why didn't the hippies in the 60's take it on, it was around then. I don't believe that one inspiring one creates a trend, but one inspiring MANY, now that's possible.
That's why I am searching so hard in the street performer arena.
Yes, the original 'white' person may have been taught or influenced by a person from another culture. Who was that person? YES!, the original person may even be some one NOT from the 'white' cultures who went around teaching a lot of you.
Who was he?-or SHE!

When I write my book i8beefy2, I don't want to write about how, "all of a sudden, it became really popular in the 80's".
You ,and this family, may not be interested in ever knowing why the fire arts have become so popular, so quickly. But, rest assured, the people that will be reading my book, WILL want to know. I have an obligation to do as much research as possible, and provide as much verified and detailed information available. Agreed? Don't get me wrong, my brother, I value everything that you have just said. But I am not yet convinced that my inquires will come up empty handed. I am recieving some amazing information from another web site, from people who were around back in the day. Performers.net

Oops! Gotta go. Talk with all of you soon. Cheers!

..by the way don´t forget the South Indian culture of Kerala and Tamil Nadu were the use of fire long staffs and knives is rooted for hundret of years...

And perhaps there is also a link to callesthetics, where pole and clubs are still taught in Australia. Though not with fire

Wow, this is a fascinating thread,

One thing i'd like to know is why the focus is so much on Fire?

So are you looking for the first person who lit up a set of poi, or set a stick on fire?

I mean what difference does it make if it's on fire or not. Surely if you wanna find the origin of it you should be looking for the people who did it before the fire spinners...

And i'm sure most kids discover the joys of setting stuff on fire and swinging it about, perhaps it's just a natural pyro instinct.

Sounds like it will be a great book, i look forward to reading it,

Good Luck with it all,

m

A thinker? You were closer with Philosopher, as thats one of my majors.

Why is it so dominated by poi and staff? I would THINK that its because they are the first things people are exposed to with fire (unless they hail from a juggling background, in which case clubs are usually first). I had a friend who grew up around a circus, who was a fire juggler before he discovered poi or anything else. To this day he is still a juggler before a poi or staff artist. If there was really a first person to teach non-culturally-descended-individuals (as opposed to "white", I think this is a more interesting point to look for than where white people started playing with it... the point where the original art culture was spread to other non-culturally-descended individuals and then it grew up to the performance arts we know and love) that would be a good thing to know I suppose. I think you might be able to find some sort of origin story, Im just skeptical that you will uncover a terribly convincing point...

Im not sure how much they might be able to tell you, but there is a group on here called Pal-ti-chi or somethin along those lines (check the video section, theres a recent one in there somewhere so you can find them) that if I remember right said they learned from a guy in India who didn't descend from an Australian-based origin story. I would say that you might want to talk to one of the New Zealanders here (malcolm?) as that's where the Maori were from. Also, there seems to be a lot of people who think ConFest in Australia in the 60's was a first place for spread into the culture. Hopefully your performers.net people can elaborate on that... I don't think a lot of the old timers post here at all, though some who have seen or played with them may.

As for the "why not---" stuff... I guess we're wierd in my group then. We light EVERYTHING on fire and play with it, not just staff and poi. We burn ourselves a lot.... but we do staff, poi, clubs, balls (someone found some "Ove-Gloves"...), swords, diablo, batons, 'chucks, rope dart, crosses, stars, samoan knife, baseball (sword + ball = baseball)... I mean a lot of people do specialize in poi and staff. Its just in my group there is a lot of wierd (arguably silly) things we light up too.. A lot of it comes right out of martial arts. Others from India club juggling, completly made-up (stars, aka the chandelier)... we got bored and couldn't play for over 2 or 3 hours straight at a show with just poi and staff without feeling like we were doing the same things over and over.

Why there is a lot of people doing only poi and staff... bow THAT would be a good thing to interview and ask questions about here, say in the Chat section. I really don't know why people don't light more things on fire... maybe we're just pyros. In fact, probably... :-D

The most things that I have ever seen lit up has been at Burning Man. Fire yo yo, frisbee, soccer ball, every racket sport you can think of, (tennis balls are cooool), stilts, etc.. But most of this stuff is for 'novelty' purposes anyway. The fire hulla hoop is really becoming popular, but as yet, can't quite make it on it's own as a sole object for hire. But the staff and poi seem to be able to stand on there own. Let me ask you, do you think that the size of the fire, and the speed of the spinning, lends the audience into appreciating the performer more than, say, someone who spins a fire staff slowly with a little bit of fire on the ends? Samoan's spin really fast with a large fire, and that seems a lot more exciting to me. I have found out that there is NO record, so far, of a person out side of the polinesian cultures, who have ever been booked for a luau show. I find that interesting. Why not? There are a lot of shows that would love to have a fire performer when no fire knife performer is available.
But several of the promoters that I have spoken with, tell me that they find the talents of those 'whites' who make themselves available, boring and too 'heavy' in their appearence. I wonder what you make of this, i8beefy2. It's nice to write to you, Ohio.

The [censored] is hittin' the fan for the Bush Administration, Horray!!!

The Karma Stops Here, Historian

Well, my GUESS would be that most people see these things as a cultural thing... at least the people doing the hiring usually, and so they go for authenticity and try and find a polinesian performer. As I have very limited experience in the professional area of spinning (besides the few little gigs I and my troupe do), I can't really say.

As for why they find us 'whites' heavy and boring I'm not quite sure. Im not sure what boring and 'heavy' mean... you callin' me fat?!

Does that mean we spin slower and more artistically, rather than "really really fast" and exciting? A good spinner can do either, and depending on the audience can switch between. For instance I can dance around with a staff even at high speeds doing contact and all that and the audience loves it... other times I go really slow to showcase how much control I have and they love that too... Maybe the people they are interviewing just aren't extremely good yet?

A lot of people on here cry about it all the time. "I did all this cool complicated stuff, and the next person went on and did one move really really fast and the audience liked them more!" Personally I don't get it cause I never play to the audience... which is why I would never make it as a paid performer.

I'm really currious as to what these "promoters" meant, and WHERE you are talking about specifically. If your talking about promoters strictly for luaus that are trying to put on an "authentic" feeling show, race may be a big factor there. I mean if they just said "Make it really fast" most performers that I would think would be up to it would be able to do that just fine, albeit bored out of their skull most of the time probably...

To answer some of your questions, mr historian.

“There have been sooooo many fire toys for decades, even centuries…..Why now does it become popular?” Resurgence in circus type skill’s, busking and stuff ie. Contact juggling and New Circus like the The Flying Fruit Fly Circus in Australia.

“Why is this new trend so dominated by the staff and poi?” Well it was dominated by staff in Australia for 8 or so years. The rise in fire chains (poi) is more recent, and follows HOP.

Don’t know about it being dominated by one colour; green is difficult to make but I think blue is easier. I think they do a lot of fire spinning in South America, and much poi is done in Thailand.

“Why aren't you learning to juggle fire clubs?” Juggling three is much harder than juggling 2, and not generally as dancy. Though most of the poi moves come from club swinging.

"Why didn't the hippies in the 60's take it on, it was around then?" See ConFest.

I think the cross over came from circus or Chinese theatre or something like that. Perhaps people like Tim Furst (Fyodor Karamazov) who wrote a brief intro in The Meteor Book, and other people like that.

Perhaps someone sees something at a circus, or like Frankie Manning (Lindy hop fame) goes to a circus to find new ideas. They take the ideas to a Fringe Festival or ConFest or BM and lot’s of people go yeah, that’s for me. They go to another festival. Next thing you know, everyone’s doing it. The rise in the rave and bush doof culture may have helped dissemination.

And don’t forget the martial arts

STONE! Thank you for a confirmation. Indeed, it appears that the poi did follow the staff in about 8 years. Would any of you happen to know who the first poi people were? Hmmmm??

I am starting to get a couple of names, but it's the proof, you see, that is really the most important thig to me. It means nothing without some sort of verification. Anybody can make a claim. Someone could claim to be able to juggle four fire staffs, and have four friends who will 'swear' that he can do it, but until I see that person do it in front of me, or at least on a video, his claim will remain 'hear say', and rightly so. Dating something as to when it first took place, the guidelines are a bit more relaxed.

Again the issue of 'white' has popped up. I am familiar with whom performs with what in the world now. Brazilians, Thai, Indians, Africans, celtic rituals, polynesean, circus performers,
martial arts, Chinese performers,etc. Thank you all!

However, for twenty years an EXPLOSION of popularity for the fire arts has occured, predominately, within the 'white' race. This is undeniable. One just has to look at most of the photos that can be viewed on peoples HoP websites. Look at the people who perform at Confest, Burning Man, and festivals everywhere;
'white'. Virtually every professional fire performers website that I have visited, and there have been many, almost everyone is white. Now there are a lot of professional street performers who are NOT white, but none of them fire perform with staff or poi.

Crap, I have to get going. I will continue this later on. Peace,

Historian

Ask Dragon7. He's the only Maori I know of that post here...

He told me about Maori people that went to the states a long time ago. And they twirled fire too....

- of the fire arts

to be a:
"Historian" - Is a way of thinking.
"Historian" - Is a way of gathering and carefully appraising information.
"Historian" - Is a way telling a story which is supported by the facts, not in finding facts to support your theory.
"Historian" - Is a title that you earn.

I have some primary sources that are findable from 1900's, 1930's videos *2, 1970's, 1980's.
I also think but I'm not certain Red Sarah started spinning about when she was 5 and I guess that was nearly 30 years ago. You couldn't write about the second half of the 1990's without including "The Drome / Just jugglers"

Convince me that you're a good historian and I will dig them out for you.

Glass

ps HOTFA: What's the info with this?
http://www.performers.net/forums/showthread.php?s=eb6aa551dfb9a6407bda0b788df60c14&threadid=3994

I bet he's like the A-Team...

meg
no matter what you think of him, this is not good.

*goes off to make new thread*