Spinning Magazine - would you buy one?

Let's see.

Burn Syndicate. E-Zine. Several people volunteered to write articles. It was supposed to eventually go to print as well. Never made it past the first edition.
People crapped out. People moved on.
One of the editors has a line of clothing now though.

Fire Magazine.
Concept went all the way through to article submission. No one signed up for subscriptions, which the money was needed to fund the first printing. It was never printed due to lack of support from the community, despite all of the positive feedback the idea recieved.
I am not even sure where the guy who wanted to publish it went.

Spin and Burn.
Had articles. Had a dedicated staff. Had a bunch of people who said "Oh yes, we will buy it." But no one ended up paying for it. Sample copies went out and while it was extremely strong in concept and content, it was done after the sample.

The start up funding for a good quality magazine (which it would have to be in order to support the illustrations needed for visually based people during technical explainations) is really high. We have a super diverse mindset in the spinning community which means it is a hard group to please, and one which turns over rapidly (*many* people jump on the spin wagon and are off of it in less than 2 years) This means you really can not rely on subscriptions, and pre-pay for single issue is not something most people want to do, and is really not enough to fund the printing of an entire mag. That is not counting staff and, previously mentioned, mailing.

This is where advertising comes in. Then you can hit up companies to pay and advertisement fee and defray printing costs. However, then people will complain that the mag is laden with ads and full of commercialist propoganda, being the free thinking artiste types that spinners are.

There are publications which are portable with this information in them. Many books and such.
And with the numerous websites, computer portability, personal teachers and simple trial and error readily available, there is *alot* of competition.

I am also curious. Things change extremely rapidly in this community. Not just the people involved but also the quality of products fluctuates. The "hot" move changes on a near daily basis. Even safety regs change alot. How would a quarterly stay on top of all of this?

Yup. I am with NYC.
Seen it. Wrote for a couple of the ones who tried. Heard all the "I'll be theres." and sat with the others wondering where they all went when it was time to buy a copy.

I don't mean to diss the dream, and if it is what you want to do, go for it. Just don't put all your eggs in this basket, because history has proven, it is not a money maker.

- Why do you need a magazine, when there's a multitude of webby's already containing all the information which you said would be included?

not everyone has the time to be constantly reading forums and they can be quite hard to find the information you want it as its often random information indispersed with chat not to mention everyone has their own way of describing things and there are often no pictures just horrid text descriptions that are like reading another language

- I find the firespinning community to be VERY hesitant to reach into their pockets and purchase something like that.

alot of spinners are like that i agree, i find it quite disgusting that there are always loads of spinners at spitz and sometimes euan has trouble covering the rent because they are to tight to pay 3 quid. these ppl are not the target audience i have in mind, hop however has a large base of ppl who buy things online in the shop and a theres a large portion of ppl who never post

-One complication I would see is mailing it out. Where would base the magazine from? Mailing rates vary greatly from OZ to the states to Europe. One would have to factor that into the cost. So, if it was published in OZ, it would rather expensive to get it to the states.

definately true which is why i would want to have someone in the uk (volunteers?) and america (roger) to be apart of the process so that they could organise printing in both places

- I think the safety aspects would have to be reiterated in every issue.

id thought about that and really i think all the safety stuff could quite easily be summarised in a page or two

- The start up funding for a good quality magazine (which it would have to be in order to support the illustrations needed for visually based people during technical explainations) is really high.

i was thinking of applying for a government grant as there are quite a few around for starting up new ventures type stuff

- This is where advertising comes in. Then you can hit up companies to pay and advertisement fee and defray printing costs. However, then people will complain that the mag is laden with ads and full of commercialist propoganda, being the free thinking artiste types that spinners are.

i was thinking of only having ads relevent to the arts ie for performance groups, event coordinators, different products

- There are publications which are portable with this information in them. Many books and such. And with the numerous websites, computer portability, personal teachers and simple trial and error readily available, there is *alot* of competition.

i havnt read the poi books so i cant really comment on those but for staff theres only the one which is very dated with no contact content.

- I am also curious. Things change extremely rapidly in this community. Not just the people involved but also the quality of products fluctuates. The "hot" move changes on a near daily basis. Even safety regs change alot. How would a quarterly stay on top of all of this?

maybe its a poi thing i found when i was travelling round the uk every new trick i learnt was several years old

im somewhat keen to see it all happen but with a release date of either sept 2005 or dec 2005 depending on funding. so for anyone thats keen to write something or help out pm me

ps thanx everyone for all the comments its helping me work things out in my head so keep em coming

Good luck with it.

I think Pele made some excellent points, and I think you've reflected on them and proposed ways of dealing with them.

Obviously the fact that all similar ventures in the past have failed is highly relevant; then again there's been other times when, after multiple failures, someone comes along who learns from the past, gives it the right slant, and, whilst everyone else has given it up as a bad job, gets it up and running.

If you can get the government grant for new ventures that would take out some of the risk and give you an advantage over those who came before.

I'm in the process of setting up a off-road-unicyle project with funds obtained from a governmant grant; it can be a fair bit of work/stress to put in a decent application, but it's worth the effort.

i would agree there will eb large problems with the start of this mag.

the one i was wondering about is the videos...

your proposed a vcd, and someone else talked of a dvd, how would you fund this?

how would you square it off with those who have or will produce vids to go on the cd,

if you look at most sites, ie pip soton, you have to be a member to download (somthing, somtimes im not always in agreement with, but thats a seperate thing, dont mena to cause offence), but what if they wnated money for allowing you to use their vid?

how would you authorise the gloabl use of music on the videos? ie how would you sqaure it with the artists used by teh performers to authorise their music to go global on a cd?

you have to cover copyright, would images to be used in the mags, be paid for aswell?

would you get sponsorship to cover these things?

would you take a section for advertisments from performers in the different countries?

Ide definitely buy a spinning magazine.
Of course there are great spinnig sites on the web **thank you malcom!** but its always nice to ave sum pretty pictures in your hands or have somthing to read on the train/at the park/genrally when your bored and need to fill time!
the vcd/dvd idea i think is great but it will most probably become a problem in the initial stages...
But then again what newly introduced magazine hasent had teething problems with funding/re production!? And its quite obvious that all of the copy rights and blah blah leagal blah blah would have to be looked taken care of (thats just details tho, i wont ave to deal with it!) but i still think its a great idea!
You can put my name down for a suscription boss

I think that a magazine has to cover all the basic point of spinning and try and cater for a millions of different stages of ability.... I can see that a magazine is gonna have to cover all the things that so many people just cry "Do a Durbs!" at! xxx

Obviously my brain has been thinking about this for over a year now -- but I've been in some ways too disorganized/lazy/having-too-much-fun-spinning to get it done.

Before I forget, I should mention that I've named it Perpetual Motion. It's meant to cover spinning and "flow toys" of all kinds -- poi, staff, poi, hula hoops, poi, devil sticks, poi, and maybe some diablo or yo-yo. And poi. Pele forgot to mention InFlame magazine, which published 1 issue. It was too caught up in how beautiful fire is and writing poems about how inspiring fire is. No, we will write stuff that people want to read, not just what people want to write.

The idea is NOT to be comprehensive, all-things-to-all-people... BUT, if you've got a few things that appeal to each person, that's hopefully good enough. How much is a tip that leads to a big breakthrough worth to you? How about ideas for how to make your own poi? (not many people outside of London/HOP spin with socks, for instance, or know about commercially made cone poi) What if you found out about a Flam Chen, Te Pooka, or other show that was going to be in your town? OR, would you pay to read about some of Menik's training regimen, or about a little town in India where old guys in parks spin fire using wire cages filled with crushed coals? What if we had stretches you can do to help learn BTB moves, or tips on what to pack in your first aid kit for fire?

The advertising is part of the idea -- there are loads of people teaching, people making toys, and people putting on shows. There should be a way for us to find out about those things and helping to support financially the people who are doing all of this work. This is real world stuff -- can't starve for ever. If you object, don't buy our magazine. It's that simple -- you're not a potential customer, pretty much by definition.

I imagine there will also need to be "sponsors" -- basically pseudo-charity (but we will not be a registered non-profit... so no tax benefit, just gifts from generous people who like what we're doing).

Every time you think "spinner" replace that with "skater" and you'll get the idea. I know some people want to keep this a small community, and a lot of people think that what you see on HOP is all there is... but the reality is, for every person you see actively practicing and learning, there are 4 or 5 people that you don't see who do it a little bit and wish they could do more. These aspirational spinners -- people who don't practice all the time (and ask yourself, if they don't have time to practice, how much do they read HOP forums that require digging through a lot of social chatter?) These same people will buy lessons, poi, etc. etc. from people who are more active in the community. I wonder... Malcolm, if you're reading this, how many people who buy things from you are active in the community section?

Again along the HOP-isn't-the-whole-spinning-world lines... I have, believe it or not, met plenty of spinners who've never been to Home of Poi. They learn through Burning Man, through a lesson at their yoga studio from an entrepreneurial teacher, or from friends on the beaches of Thailand (or Oz or NZ). All these people may potentially be interested. I've been slowly building my network so that I can get a better idea of what the greater poi world is like for the last couple of years -- and I've still only scratched the surface.

I'm considering starting out with an interesting project... an issue that talks about how much poi has grown in the last year or two. There would be a couple of interesting moves that your average person doesn't hear about. 2 or 3 variations of the Fountain for beginners, and BTB Waist Wrap for more advanced spinners. Someone would need to cover the high end of what's happened on HOP in the more technical threads that I never read (Simian? Glass? Arashi? Rev? SpiralX?)... I think 2 of the biggest changes that have helped the community a whole lot are the Video forum on HOP and tribe.net for the US community... so there will be something about those... Spherculism has been big for a lot of people... as has Meg's contact staff vids site. Events: Burning Man, EJC, BJC, festivals, Pismo Beach for those of us on the West Coast, Playa Del Fuego...

There's a staff spinner in LA who's a professional animator who might help with illustrations... or we can put something together by taking frames from a video. There are loads of people who've offered to help with writing or production, but of course actually doing the work will be another thing.

Thanks Ben for a big kick in the arse with this thread. It's a lot of hard work ahead though...

Um, what do y'all think?

- your proposed a vcd, and someone else talked of a dvd, how would you fund this?

well blank cds here are about 50 cents which is about 20 p so not massively expensive.

- how would you square it off with those who have or will produce vids to go on the cd,

for the first issue i think itll have to be like col and if its viable and makes money then ppl will get paid for the second issue

- if you look at most sites, ie pip soton, you have to be a member to download (somthing, somtimes im not always in agreement with, but thats a seperate thing, dont mena to cause offence), but what if they wnated money for allowing you to use their vid?

itll be all new content that wont go online. in particular i was thinking of some of the video content being complementary with tutorial stuff in the mag

- how would you authorise the gloabl use of music on the videos? ie how would you sqaure it with the artists used by teh performers to authorise their music to go global on a cd?

same deal as col

- you have to cover copyright, would images to be used in the mags, be paid for aswell?

in the second one yes

- would you get sponsorship to cover these things?

idealy yes but it would all be twirler specific

- would you take a section for advertisments from performers in the different countries?

i was thinking possibly of having 3 seperate prints done one for oz europe and america with a section of festivals for the year, kinda leaning towards a bi yearly mag with the release corresponding to a month before the festival season starts in oz and europe

I go back and forth on the VCD/DVD idea... in some ways, people will pay more for a DVD than they would for a magazine, so that's part of the motivation. All rights would have to be cleared on everything from the start... there's probably plenty of material to work with (except the music thing) without having to do anything illegal. The video would be original, text original, and photos could be cleared easily enough -- besides, they're probably photos of our friends taken by our friends.

I also definitely don't want to compete directly against Malcolm in any way.

i'm with NYC

Just spin it.

I am with orbit on the VCD/DVD thing. It is not something that is sitting well with me ideally, though I haven't pinpointed why (except maybe that it is a rip-off of COL).

You mention different issues for each country/global section. Why? Most of the poi people I know travel, and usually quite extensively. I should think it would be more beneficial to list them all.

Next, you say replace "spin" with "skate". Okay. I did. And I know that Tony Hawk is amazing and pro, for example. Therefore I trust some of what he says.
Those magazine utilize journalists, designers and professionals who have been doing this for years who research and do in depth articles which are extremely respectable.

For example, you claim to want to write an article on how spinning has changed in the past two years. Two years? It is nothing. It really has not changed. Try in the past 7 years or 10 years. Then you will see drastic changes.

Are you getting someone who is certified to write the safety column? Are you getting a Dr. to write about burn care or incident care?

Are you going to get people who are formally trained as performers to write the performance articles?

I think the one about the men who spin in the park with coals is nice, especially since it is something that has been known in the spinning community (and has been brought up both on here and in tribe) multiple times. In this light, will you then be offering articles on traditional uses of the tools or will the main focus be on contemporary presentations.

Keep in mind the time frame you are dealing with and who your target audience is.

*ALOT* of what you are proposing caters to newbies, which is great, except then you go back to the fact that poi to a high percentage of newbies is a fad, and therefore you will not build up a consistent readership.
However, offer one or two articles geared towards the newbs and then focus more on those who have been in this for awhile and you will (hopefully) maintain a strong base readership.

You say you have met alot of spinners not on hop (as have multitudes of us) and yet you are looking/mentioning HoPpers as major contributors. This means for your "experts" you are relying on people that many whom you hope to have in your readership will never have heard of. How does this support the level of credibility you hope to achieve then?
This thought process is a direct contradiction to what you said about wanting to reach people who are not on HoP, yet you will still be using HoP as a main source.
Contributors should have easily backed up/proven experience in whatever field they are in just for that reason.

I'm sorry. If I paid my good money for a magazine and read a collection of articles written by backyard burners, I would doubt the validity of the magazine.

Here is where the decision comes in to label it an amatuer publication (which then will most likely not make money) or aim higher and cover more ground but really scour to find people who can uphold *AND* be consistently reliable as writers.

You also asked for writers to email you. How do you intend to check their credentials to make sure what they are reporting is correct?

What journalistic/editting experience do you have that will give potential contributors/investors faith in your abilities to lead this project?

And even more so, what makes you an expert to be leading this project? (because you need to make a compelling arguement for this to get any form of funding).

I also noticed that you mention other tools to a limited degree and then poi alot. I think that would be boring. The resources for poi are far more plentiful than for most other of these arts (with the exception of juggling). Perhaps diversification and less holding to poi as the mainstay might be an order for success.



Before you can even venture into things like, especially when you are looking at getting grants, this there needs to be a full business plan which includes target audience, financial plan (in case grants do not go through), staff, article projections outline for at least the first few issues, deadline schedules..essentially, all your ducks in a row before the paperwork can even be processed.

In case you are wondering where I am coming from with all of this, I have my certification as a grant writer. I have been through it a few times. Also as a contributing writer for 3 'zines, I also know how this works from that perspective.

Hopefully it's more for you to mull over that will help your direction a bit.

Pele, you're dead on target. Ben's new to this project... I've been mulling this over for a year. I've thought through some of those issues, and I know some of those others will need to be done.

The financial plan for this project is to lose money (lots of it mine) at first. This is part of why this project hasn't gotten off the ground. Seriously, though, this will need to go through some rough times before it becomes profitable. I have some potential funding sources that will hopefully help to pay the bills for a little while...

The target audience for this magazine is pretty broad. Spinners come in a lot of different flavors, and belong to many different communities. What I want to do is report on things that are relevant to everyone, and to tell people what's interesting that may be going on in various communities (on HOP, in London, in San Francisco, at Buring Man).

I have a doctor who will write about what to put in your burn kit. I have a professional toxicologist who will write about toxicity of various chemicals we use. I will not publish an article about professional performance from someone who will not be credible to other performers. I have professional illustrators who are willing to contribute. I have professional writers who are volunteering to help with the editing and professional production people to put this together. Yeah, it's volunteer work and I expect it will take longer, but they will be credible. This is not a half-assed magazine put together by a bunch of kids. We are not out to piss off upstanding people and businesses in our community -- we are here to move everyone forward in a positive direction and help everyone do what they do better (how ever you define that - a better performer, juggler, spinner, teacher, business person, writer, photographer, magazine publisher). That said, the people reporting on events will be participants rather than professional observers and interviewers. We'll edit gramatical issues and do what we can. The first couple of issues may be rough, but the goal is a real magazine.

Are you telling me that the poi spinning scene hasn't changed at all in the last 2 years? Really?!? Was there this much communication between spinners in the US before tribe.net came along? Did groups of casual spinners in LA meet up with spinners in SF? Did people learn to do wibbles at festivals? Did Crimson try to pull off big choreographed routines the night of the Burn? Did people make their own little videos to download off the web that taught hundreds of other people how to do a particular move? This is the kind of stuff I'm talking... and y'know, if we have people who are trying things that have been tried before -- well, those previous attempts weren't documented, so no one found out about it. That's why we want a magazine!

How am I qualified to do this? What I am imagining is more than just a magazine... it's a mechanism for connecting some of the little pockets of spinners that exist out there and building a market. Maybe the spinners you know travel quite a lot, but I rarely meet spinners who've travelled as much as I have - they often wish they did, but they don't. Maybe professional performers manage to do this, but most of the casual spinners I know haven't travelled. I've been doing cross-pollinating of ideas in California for a while... telling people to check out HOP and other sites - and especially the videos section... telling people to try using socks or cone poi - showing people how to do isolations or stall combos or whatever. This kind of cross-polination can happen on a broader level if we have channels to spread that information. I have an MBA from a top-tier business school and have been a professional product manager for more than 5 years. This magazine is a product in a category I care about a lot.

I have very clear ideas about what I want from various aspects of this project. One of the things I know I'll need is a certain amount of support from the community. It would be nice if people who teach newbies would be willing and interested in helping us get the word out about it. It would be nice if people like Malcolm who sell products in the industry help sell it and advertise in it. I'd like to get Everyone's support (our role is to be a neutral party and report on what's happening and support everyone, not to "take sides") but to be honest, we do need everyone's support - just a few key people.

Oh yeah... I know poi spinners are cheap... I don't mind if people share the magazine. There are plenty of people who are not that cheap though... and if we get the right mix of articles to appeal to people, they'll want their own copy.

If people have insights into why past ventures have failed, I'd like to hear it. I suspect that the market has grown over the last few years - but I don't know. I suspect that they were too focused on one or another aspect of the scene, or assumed that everyone else was just like them (and really loved fire and wanted to read their fire poems for instance)...

I would definatly buy a magazine on fire, i think people want something to hold take around with them and show non-spinners in the hope to get them interested.

Why not just start with a newsletter type thing made and filled with articals info anything of use from people all around the community "Made by the community, for the community" as things take off " if " they do, expand and make into a proper magazine.

i would verry much like to see a fire spinning mag.
it would be verry usefull if there was interviews
had list and pics of new and upcoming fire products.
and list of events. yes we can look it all up on the web. but in a mad it alows us to read it in the car or on the bus hell even on the pot.. it is a matter of convince wich it would be. the adverage mag it about 4.95 but you would be doing a specialty mag so i could see you charging 6 to 7 dollars

Will it have words and pictures and pretty colours? And will it be witty and urbane?


*goes of to find a dictionary and look up what urbane means*