You can go to the ball.....

stone wrote:
>...alternating, split-time butterfly.
is this a split time thread the needle

>What about double time?
define what is double time??

That lovely yank wrote:
>Though I do think it's wierd if you simply spin both poi forward in what HoP and I would call 'split time' and you >would call 'follow time'... because if you're just spinning them forward, they're not following anything.

Doh. One poi is following the other one - they are following each other.
It comes from the very oldskool. when the first move you would learn was cross follow (short for cross and follow- your-hand-goes-across-and-then-the-other-poi-follows) so everyone knew an association of the word FOLLOW with spinning like that.
[for the newbies: cross follow its the same as the incredibly wrongly titled 3 beat weave ]

Split time i use a short for "split-time-in-the-opposite-direction". but then if you use "follow time" instead of
"split-time-in-the-same-direction" then split time is always in the opposite direction so pretty soon I stopped saying " ...in opposite direction."
(mind you for 2 years I called it (Split in Opp Direction) Judith time - so if you want to be completely unambiguous - call it that, and I'll know what exactly your talking about, unless your name is judith, and your not that particular oldskool poiswinginggod judith in which case you will be confused)

HOP lessons only mention "equal timing" and "split timing"

Uh oh... here we go again with the panzyass Brittish Beat Bashing Brigade again.

1) There's nothing wrong with the term '3 beat weave'. Don't make me smack you. It's a weave. It has 3 beats. If you want to argue that there's no such thing as beats or no such thing as a weave then you can argue away the validity of any named move. Any confusion with 'beats' or 'circles' has nothing to do with a 3 beat weave. If it helps people learn, it's valid.

2) Are you calling this move here a follow time move? http://www.homeofpoi.com/teach5.htm Cuz I don't see those poi following each other. In fact, they're not even on the same side of the body ever. I'll agree that it's "follow-time" if you agree that they're not actually following each other.

3) I didn't really need a #3. I just had momentum. Didn't want to only stop with 2.

Jump, Jive, and Wail.

ok just did a massive re-edit on the first post to include simplified definitions of everything.
and I'd forgotten a sub family. doh

Sorry that its not formatted easilly to read, maybe i should poke the webmaster until he does a html version.
he's a bit tired today,so I'll leave him for a bit.

don't get hooked up on the definitions, they dont matter,
its the quality of the spinning that matters
and the concepts and ideas that matter

word up
drew

ps Rob: I Look forward to reading your defs when thy're ready.

cool.

makes much more sense now. before, some of it i thnik made sense only to people that know you ; but now its more accesable for the world and his poi-spinning dog.


mine'll be a while yet; unless you want it in stages.....
an eventually will be pages and pages(cause right down at the bottom i'm putting in felinnotation(hands only) and move tables....)

but a first copy should be learning to walk in a week or so....

smiles
R

awesome... been looking for something like this for ages. Hopefully everyone can come to some sort of agreement on names for moves so less confusion!

Keep up the good work!

I like the edit very much. At some point I should probably learn to DO all of those things... but for now, a basic vague understanding will have to do.

Except the whole "Jedi moves" definition is wack. You should just call it "Stuff I don't feel like arguing about right now"...

Well done as always.

Now go find some women.

yo,

not bad, although ive tried applying the same system of classification to a few things and it works every time (try sex for fun )

one point, waistwraps, you say its all about the carry, without defining the carry, and if it is about carries, then shouldent it just be 'carries' instead of waistwraps, which i would class as a 'move' anyway.

T

I have a problem with the Jedi moves... I just learnt how to do the 5bt weave btb, and NOW IT ISN'T JEDI ANYMORE!!!
i was so proud that i could do a jedi move, but i realised now i can't.

Great job Glass. I enjoyed reading your List of Moves.

As a suggestion, that probably comes under the sub-sub-heading of "most moves have cousins in every other family" I reckon that if you put Waist Wraps, Cross Follows, Fountains (wot fountains?) and Flowers in the Cross-Follow family (or the Weave family) you could reduce the clutter. You could also consider Reels as a sub-family of Butterflies, if you wanted to. In Ways of Spinning, you could add Alternating time, and all that comes after Critical Momentum.

What I call the alternating, split-time butterfly (and I could be wrong) is a hand together type move, but you could weave it. Similar to that Bobby Butterfly Thing in Jo Derry's clip.

Cheers for down right dirty dancing, and breaking all them planes

So what about butterfly waist wraps, butterfly weave fountains or alternate direction flowers? Heck, flowers don't do any "crossing" either really.

And what about same-direction reels?

ok... so I've avoided this post like the plague.. but inevitably keep getting refer'd back here when I try to find this helix stuff.. I know you don't feel like explaining it here, perhaps in a pm.. perhaps for a cookie... or perhaps just a short little animated clip dubbed "this crazy nonsense that I don't want to explain" or perhaps a link dubbed, "Rev, you punk, stop letting your poi think for you and go here"

or you could just do it in a 3-5 page essay, but I hate essays.. I'm sure you hate essays.. I'm sure we all hate essays.. or maybe just I hate essays..


I'm going back to bed..

Dont beat yourself up Rev, I dont think it actually exists.

the idea (and this is in the vauge hope hes gonna come and tell me im wrong) is kinda v-shaped planes (well, more like / shaped plane) being pulled sideways through space, its sort of semi isolated and it makes the poi form a spiral as they transition from left to right. do this in follow time and you get a helix, the double spiral. the reason i dont think it exists is that you can only make one transition (outside to invert) with the poi keeping the /, on the next transition the / flips to \ (hence making a V).

The other eveidence i have for this not existing is the fack the hes been on it for nearly a year now and its still jedi.

T

edit actually having played around some more it is possible to come out the other side keeping the / is just damm hard.

( )

I'd recomend that you ignore Nx's post on the grounds that it won't help you.
he's only seen fragments of it, more than most, but everyones seen some of it.
So far I've never managed to explain it in less than an hour, using drawings, models and po/clubswining.
but I can explain all that i understand of it, and I will ...in due course
In the mean time i also recommend that you don't even worry about it, and don't speculate on it. but do get very very very tight plane control, solid long arm spins and middle of the string isolations
The construct took me a year just to build the theory of it. that theory is what finally allowed me put down my poi, at least for the forseeable future. You know more parts of it than you think, but nothing to help get the jigsaw puzzle to make sense.
I wont teach the move until i can convey the philosopy
Follow the path of your own po
80808080

oh well, unhelpfull is better than wrong i suppose

T

spiralx, I think some confusion comes from my assumptions regarding traditional "old skool" moves, and I tend to classify moves as same direction or opposite direction. For example, waist wraps are an "old skool" move, so my first assumption is that they are a same direction move. Sure you can have butterfly waist wraps, but the name u used defines the move ie. butterfly waist wrap. This indicates an opposite direction move, does it not?

If u are you asking me, about my classification of your examples, then:
"So what about butterfly waist wraps?" Butterfly, opp direction move.
"Butterfly weave fountains?" Butterfly, opp direction move. Is there a description of the butterfly weave fountain at HOP?

Flowers, reels and same-direction reels. Reels are an "old skool"move that generally denotes alternating, opposite direction moves. They don't usually cross, so would not consider them to be a butterfly.

The term Flowers is not one I use, but from what I've seen recently, they are (or were originally) a same direction move, done in side-plane, and are comprised of big and little circles. I'm told people also call them Fowers when they do em in opposite direction. Perhaps that's one for the "boffins" to sort out. I'd probably call them reels if they were an opposite direction move. Actually, my own private name for these is Inter-Planetary-Gears

Flowers don't do any "crossing" either really. What's your point about crossing?

(((Incidentally, I learnt and call all the same-direction waist wraps, fountains. And while I use that term in private, I call them waist wraps at HOP, to reduce confusion))).

Does that help ????? If not, then refer all further correspondence to Dr Glass

*Remembers a day on Clapham Common with Glass, spent with much headscratching and clubs laid out in weird repeating V shapes on the grass*

Still dont get it - unless I do and I dont know it

I still think that the most jedi concept is that of Schrodingers Poi.

ie your perception of the poi alters the state of the Poi, etc.

Getting back to questions on the double movement and double-time. Now this is real "old skool"; wall-plane stuff, and best viewed in the sub-category of "Not Necessarily That Important".

So, for opposite direction moves like the butterfly, you are doing a double movement when both poi are swung together. For example, double behind the shoulder circles (left and right are doing shoulder circles at the same time), then down to double lower fronts (left and right hands doing lower front circles together). With double-time, I think you just do 2 circles, like two in a set together, two upper fronts with each hand.

The partner (for want of a better word) of a double movement is an alternating movement. The reel is an example of an alternating movement. With the reel you do a right shoulder circle (behind the shoulder) and a left long arm circle simultaneously, and right long arm circle and left shoulder circle simultaneously. Alternation can also include up and down movement, as with the travelling moves. There are lots of ways to change from an alternating movement to double movement. You can for example, do two shoulder circles with left, while the right does a long arm and shoulder circle.

I associate the parallel and follow movements with same direction (weave) type moves, and also the split-shift and follow-shift. For example, you are swinging parallel lower front and lower back circles. If from the lower front circles, the right does a lower back circle, the left a lower front, the right lower front, left lower back, you get the shift or split. From there u can move into waist circles like the "lower back waist circle, arm over the back" for fountains, and other anachronistic stuff . Was ne of that useful ???

Would the inclusion of a section on "transitions" be useful?

i reckun: transition is just a word that means "the bit inbetween".

Sometimes it's instantaneous (a point common to two moves where poi position, poi momentum, and arm position are common. ie: there is a point in backwards weave that is identical to a point in forwards weave. There is no particular 'transition' movement between them.

Sometimes its a couple of carries, or a carry and a circle, or whatever little fudging of timing that you require.

its all pretty arbitrary what you consider 'move' and what you consider 'transition'.
i could do a butterfly, jump around swinging patterns for half an hour, then do a reverse butterfly, and claim all the stuff inbetween butterflies was merely a transition.

Stone: alternating & double! thats the terms i was wanting for describing double staff! Was getting really confused mixing it up with follow and parallel time.

Godammit, follow and parallel are rubbish terms. What are terms for those timings irrespective of same\opposite direction?

split time and... same time?

Helixes: sound like trinity non-contact airwraps to me

and Glass is sounding very Johnathan Livingstone Seagull, he'll be making his patterns change state instantaneously soon, without all this timewasting circles rubbish. i reckon the real reason he only spins theoretical poi now is cos they're even easier than socks...

yo,

and for the monkey.

stone, I get ya, but its confusing.

transitions. when i say transitions i mean a change of plane. i.e. a weave does three circles on the left ouside wheel plane then 'transitions' to the right outside wheel plane for 3 circles. Transitions hapen at the bottom of the circle for forwards and at the top of the circle for backwards. Carries have two transitions, top and bottom.

t