Teaching Moves (or...The Longest Post Ever)

Ok does anyone want to join me for a game of "spot the stoner" in this thread
its a bit like "where's wally" but without the wooly hat.

"Dont Stop Teaching because you dont want to stop learning ..."



You ask for the cat to give you the water.
and what if the cat gives you the water.?
You'll find out that its just regular water.

I've seen where arashi is coming from.
and I agree with him on this one completely.

Technically he is the best I've seen,
light years ahead and primarily developed his technical in isolation.
but more importantly, this pussy cat can really dance, in a way that I though only women could

The first person for 3 years to show me some poi theory that I hadn't developed already, like a new way of understanding, a new model, one of the last big bits in the jigsaw of the G.U.T. of poi.

And he is still learning, still training, developing himself, still developing his skills.

I've seen the promised land,
and I left my poi there.

I've seen everything technical that I ever need to see with poi. And I've seen the most beautiful dancing with poi (sorry arashi, that title still goes to lady, shes got a certain "je ne sais pas.".)

On Poi theory, I'm happy, I'm complete, theory of motion geometry structure and interrelation. I'm not claiming I've got the G.rand U.nified T.heory, but I've got as good theory as I need, and I've learnt everything that I needed to learn from poi (for now.). I'll pick them up a bit here and there, and have a play. but I don't feel like a poi swinger any more.
so I'm putting down poi and picking up girls, :LOL: Something else I learnt in austin.
they're much better to dance with
I shall return to them one day. (and if I lived in austin, I'd swing poi every day)

"Sometimes it is better not to solve the problems of others
as a way to avoid solving your own problems."

Hiya Arashi Extra Dry, how are dem belly dancing ladies nowadays?
And coleman, get to bed, you gotta work in the morning.

The new HOP, its not our home anymore

One day you too will hang up your poi.


Drew

(with apologies to almost everyone for an entire post or cryptic double meanings and hints. late night rambling when I should be sleeping or working)

p.s.

teaching is not about solving peaples problems.

it is the duty of the student to solve the problems.

it is the duty of the teacher to pose the questions.

infer.

T

"Big Egos always do small poi," - So, so, so, so not true.

Poi Theory / G.U.T. / 'Understanding Poi' - More and more I don't even try. Apart from the very occasional rambling I do I don't actually think about it any more. I don't think about what's possible technically, I don't strive to find the most complex hyperloop I can do, I don't care too much what everyone else is doing. My poi have just become an extension of my arms. Poi move in circles and so do my hands when I'm spinning. It's that simple really.

I don't think I'd read the first post fully before. I know what the man is saying, and I agree. I've refused to teach people isolations, hyperloops, 5-beats, etc... because they didn't actually have any control of their poi. Does that make me a bad teacher? No. For the same reason that I wouldn't teach quantum mechanics to 7 year olds before I teach atomic structure to them at 12. In a way this is what HoP does, lets people get ahead of themselves and often it takes them a good while to recover.

"it is the duty of the teacher to pose the questions." - After your criticism of Glass above this is surely ironic.

*please accept my apologies for the ludicrous length of this post *

i was gonna write a nice considered post supporting my nx? quote but then i went back and read the whole thread again.
my second post here (the one with my comments on the progression of modern skateboarding) already encapsulates my belief in the importance of creating, sharing and building on a knowledge base over time.
and anyway, i got a new favourite nx? quote (that i have paraphrased cos i'm not down with the scion):

"If the cat leaves, there is no 'magic water' at all"

ergo, having a teacher is far better than not.
summed up nicely in the sentence "if I lived in austin, I'd swing poi every day".


"Sometimes it is better not to solve the problems of others
as a way to avoid solving your own problems"
reminded me of my first ever sig
"its often easier to give advice,
than it is for a person to run one's own life"

however, i don't think teaching a few poi moves on hop from time to time would mean you were avoiding your own problems (poi related or otherwise).


i have an almost polar opposite view to dom's last comments which surprised me somewhat.

i believe that what we see as advanced (isolations are the ultimate example) may not necessarily be so.
just because one has been spinning for 3 years before discovering a technique does not mean it is so advanced that we should refuse to teach it to someone based on our own preconceived ideas of their skill level.

i think it is slightly aloof to assume that the techniques we learnt late on should be kept back from others until they reach the same point on the path of learning as we did.

everyone has their own path and who are we to say which turnings are best for them.

"HoP lets people get ahead of themselves and often it takes them a good while to recover."

i'm very likely one of these people.
but without a steep learning curve, i would have likely given up poi long ago.
hopefully i have 'recovered'

i know a man that could do a seven beat weave before he could do a five - he seems to have 'recovered' well and imho has turned out finer than most

i learnt poi solely because it was a challenge, not because i wanted to be a performer or learn to dance better or even to look good while i was doing it.
as i learnt more, my drives changed and i began to care about how the patterns i could spin looked from the outside and so on.
but my priorities are not yours or anyone elses.

i still don't dance around much with poi and i am happy with that - i'm not a performer!
i dance like my dad so i developed my style with very little footwork other than simple sidsteps and delayed turns.
does this make me an inferior poi spinner?

i think the bottom line is, i smile every time i spin.


respectfully dom, i think your 'teaching quantum to a seven year old' example is not a very good analogy for learning to spin poi.
there nothing in poi that even approaches the level of understanding required for quantum theory but i understand your real point was "you can't run before you can walk".

well, with respect to poi, i think in many ways you can.

there is the added factor with poi that the understanding can be there long before the application.

if someone asks me how something works, i give an explanation, no matter what their skill level.
this often involves me having to subsequently go a few steps back to find the person's current skill level and teaching them something more fundamental first but i never say "no, i'm not showing you that, you have to learn this first."
i show what they have asked for and explain it to the best of my ability and then, if necessary work back to give them something to practice that will get them closer to the technique they have asked me about.
they may not be able to spin what they asked about but some understanding of the theory involved and an idea of what is required to build up to it, coupled with the knowledge that it is attainable encourages them to learn and work towards it.

specifically for me, this type of scenario was tipified by my learning of the butterfly weave.

for me, juggling is a very good analogy - people understand some patterns long before they can juggle them.
for example, i'm sure most people that can juggle a 3 ball cascade also understand how a 5 ball cascade works even though it may be way beyond their means.
in my case, i understand how lots and lots of advanced tricks work because i enjoy knowing how the professionals do what they do.
but understanding things above my level doesn't discourage me - in fact quite the opposite, it gives me an incentive to practice a bit more, to learn the steps leading up to those patterns i really want to juggle.
and there is the added bonus that the fact that i understand how it works means i can tailor my learning to my preferred areas on may way along.

you might argue that i don't fully explore the earlier stages of some patterns and hence in a way have 'missed out' things and this is true.
but maybe i'm saving my creative energy to find variations in the patterns i have really worked hard to get to?

as long as i enjoy what i am doing along the way, why should my knowledge be restricted?


finally, drew hanging up his poi again raises a very interesting question for this thread:

can your creative energy for something 'run out'?

drew has developed much of his poi repertoire in a creative environment - i.e. for a lot of the time, his only source of new moves has been his and his peers' creativeness.
there was no-one at a much higher skill level around to teach drew when he was learning and i suspect much the same could be said of arashi.

drew has been 'inventing' poi moves for years and years (and by inventing i mean they were learnt independently of a teacher) and i'm wondering if all that energy spent means that he feels it has now become a discipline he doesn't want to spend any more creative energy on?

i might be completely wrong there but the plain fact is, for some reason drew got to level two and gave up halfway through.

if the answer to the above question is 'yes' and you can lose your passion for creativity in a field, then i would say that willing, selfless teachers are absolutely essential if we want or expect the art to continue progressing at the rate we have seen so far.


innovation vs stagnation.


"...show me something new..."

A good teacher will tell you the answer, but a great teacher will help u work it out for yourself. Because if someone tells you, you didn't earn it, and if you dont earn it, why would you remember. In saying this i just made myself a good teacher...

Props to all who post here, cause i learn off even newbes, sometimes they can see what we dont... by being pure and un-corrupt.

hubba hubba whatta buncha stuff.

first, thanks to coleman for restarting on one of my main reasons for starting this thread. specifically, my interest in understanding how handing advanced techniques to beginners may or may not be a wise thing to do. more specifically... whether it fosters a consumerist attitude and whether or not it fails to nurture one of the greatest joys poi can give us, which is the joy of discovering your own techniques and style, and how that joy weighs out in the long run versus the joy of learning the moves period, and whether the art will advance more in either scenario. and MOstly, whether or not someone who hasn't discovered things for themselves can even experience that joy without a lot more work, whereas you can be taught how to figure things out and be much more connected to the results.

and in a broad scope, whether or not we a spiritual beings will evolve more by playing, or by trying to learn something just because it seems like we will be "better spinners" once we know that move we saw. the "better spinning" comes from WHOLE body awareness, posture, technique, and spiritual wholeness, immersion in the meditation. a good spinner to me makes me feel inspired to be more in touch with the meditation. seeing glass spin inspired me, made me want to practice my technique and planes a bazillion times more than anyone else i've met. now i know why... [booming voice] "they call him glass." [dun dun dunnnnnnn] he is there with it. not just doing some cool move without control. everybody, even the layman, can see the difference when you are playing within your controllable techniques, and when you are extending yourself away from control just because you think a move is cooler and you will look like hot [censored].

i have been resolving this question on my own for a while and i _still_ think that, as coleman was describing, the best way to do it is to teach foundational exercises and not just "moves." and like it or not, poi are fractal, and yes you can jump ahead to certain areas and skip over others and that is fine. but as a teacher coming up with a system of techniques and a way to teach them i have to consider the progression of controllable techniques in my methodology. go ahead and jump around! that's not in question here. a newbie might be able to learn how to isolate, but do they really know how to isolate?

what we are talking about here isn't keeping secret techniques. it's about the attitudes we have toward life, and most especially how we respect our peers. (BTW glass you REALLY got me blushing here. and yes the belly girls are... FINE ) i'm not sure where the argument has sprung from as far as this teaching and learning thing goes. from my first reading here, sounds like you have expectations of glass that he should teach you, nix, simply because morally he doesn't "own" the knowledge. but you're wrong, he does, at least as much as we "own " anything, as impermanent bags of water entrop-ising in a swirling mass of holographic music. he worked and sacrificed thing sto get it, and he doesn't owe anybody anything. and that's what i mean. talk to him as a person and a friend and not someone who should teach you just because you want to learn, adn you may realise that the knowledge IS his, and that once he shows it to you you are now CONNECTING as people and THAT is the most sacred thing. from that moment on, if you are a warrior, and deserve to be called human, you have to respect him and that knowledge, for they are the same thing... like how glass speaks with praise of the people that came before him. that is very native american, sacred and respectful. i like that about him. nix i know you respect him, and this isn't directed at you per se` but it seems there is an undercurrent there, and that undercurrent in all of society is the main issue here. that is what is destroying humanity, the belief that there is a thing we can acquire that will make things better, [water] when really the answer lies in stopping and taking a deep breath where we stand. life is tragic, so give somebody a hug.

are we all saying the same thing? yes i learn when i teach, but not here so much... i've been teaching and nudging a lot here, probably more than people realise, and i've only learned a few new techniques. so i'm not getting much back in the poi department but that's not why i'm doing it anyway. i'm here at hop cause i like burners, generally, i like to travel, this is a cool way to meet people and find out what places are like, and cassandra was just too sweet for me to not like it here i do get a lot out of teaching people in person, [cause i get much more feedback, and not just a heartfelt, "wow thanks" and then lots of silence while it is getting assimilated and the learning process and eurekas are happening on the other side of the world without me] and i've gotten a lot out of writing my book, perfecting my teaching methodology. but sometimes i feel like people just take my posts and chew it up, and then naively don't know what to do next and it really borders on wasted time on my part. still though i think we are all saying the same thing. teaching is good.

so. back to post 1 then:

Quote:

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this kid is on a quest, he has to get stronger because this bad guy is coming to try to kill him, although he is pure in heart. he hears about this magic water that makes you strong. it is up in the clouds, at the top of a miles high column of stone. so he climbs it for days and days, and when he gets to the top he finds a guardian, a cat, who holds the water. the cat says "if you can manage to grab this water out of my hands, you can drink it and become a great strong warrior."

---

Quote:

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i personally learned moves by doing the few that i knew existed, for years, alongside sage and the rest in my family- until we did them for so long that they were like second nature, a reflex. and since then, i've never really been stumped on moves, in fact i know more than i can really even remember, because if they are reflex the moves will show you what the next move to know is, because all moves are related and teach you themselves... it's a beautiful, joyous, fulfilling unfolding process, discovering a move, leaving you hungry for more, like being in love, don't you think?

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when reading the rest of the post i make below, please keep in mind that this was your path. and someone elses undoubtedly is very different(and i hope equally enjoyable )

Quote:

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if you jump too far ahead in your moves, (which is sooo easy to do nowadays because there are more and more spinners, and they are starting to be able to teach) you will miss out on correcting the subtle mistakes of the more basic patterns like weaves, heck miss out on BASIC PATTERNS EVEN <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , and your personal expression will suffer.

---

i do not believe this is possible.
a twofold belief:
personal expression is not an examined subject.


not all people require to become strong to defeat an enemy, and so seek the majic water.
learning one extremely hard manouvre such as a spinning somersault to evade your enemy is not the same as learning a well rounded basis in kung fu.

but who are we/you to deny somebody the right to learn that one manouvre? if you are comfortable in youself you will not feel either superior nor inferior(after all you are not passing judgement on their life choices) and so not feel threatened by their path.if that is their goal, or part of their path then why should you not help them?

especially as:
(and this is the second part of the belief)

there are no advanced moves in poi.

to paraphrase a well known saying by mao tse tom:

the hardest move is the weave

after that everything is just a different direction.

the number of directions you can take from the very centre of your being is one for every furthest point of the universe.

tho poi as a concept is not perhaps as infinite as the entirety of the universe, there are still any number of different directions our imaginations can take those tennisballs/socks/chains/fish(mmmmmsistafirewireaquaticpoi )ropes/beamers/strings/stix/cones.

and as has been remarked upon by many a spinner before me:
'they do lots of stuff they consider basic i didn't know, and vice versa, and we had a great time swapping tricks'
and by that i mean body movement/dance style as well. not just 'tricks' in the nerdiest sense of the word.



so.

arashi you have chosen your path.
your teaching path is not mine. and i respect that. but as an alternative, hows this:

anybody who wants to learn something from me need only ask. i will provide teaching in whatever form i can at the time. be it video, text(accepting all its fallibilities, which, interestingly enough through misunderstanding produced some of my favouritest foibles with poi), in person, and so on and so forth. i love showing people tricks which to me seem as if they are the first move in a family/idea in a concept, because it undoubtedly means that when i see them again at some indeterminate point int he future they(or somebody around) will have developed that idea, and come back to me with something to make my brain bubble and tingle with new ideas(one of my favourite sensations)
(because of this, some people may have noticed i rather manically swap tricks with people, espescially when in london, or if near various people...and i apologize if this makes my behaviour at these events seem to you like i am just trying to get attention to the things I have learnt. the truth is, these sessions give so much to me in terms of personal development and enlightenment i feel i have to pay the debt somehow and doling out moves and concepts is one of the only ways i know how)

little aside there, but here's the rub:
funnily enough, i treat every move as if it were one of those "tricks which to me seem as if they are the first move in a family/idea in a concept"
and so the trick i leave in someone elses mind could be an extended windmill. or an isolation, or a btb waistwrap, or a slapback, or a clickclack, or, indeed anything they may ask of me.
because none of these is any harder or easier than any of the others. it is just a direction.

R

well first
this sin't about secrets
i show people much more than a move when asked. i show them the concepts underlying it so they can figure out it's friends too. if you can't figure it out without asking, then you need to understand some basic thing before it, isn't it better to know that? but please continue your diatribe. we are all saying valid points. but don't you see? the purpose of not focusing on tricks is to adress more than the single aspected need for cool moves. it's to elevate poi to another level. one of awareness opening, focus and intent, and body awareness. you say you want the cat, well here he is! glass and i are both saying the same stuff here. moves are the surface. the icing. the peice of cheese in the maze. just like cars and ronald mcdonald and the trojan horse. the vegetarian meat and potatoes of life are not in the moves. they are baking in the oven, simmering, juicy, breathing and meditation. kinda like, hey stop and smell the roses. moves are roses too. but oooohooooh! lookit the cool plane control a bumblebee just landed on it..

ok...
will continue diatribe...

i did not imply you are secretive in all aspects. or certainly did not mean to. if so then sorry.

not having met you i cannot remark on your person to person teaching, except that i have heard good things from others....

:edit:

so.
back to topic.

Quote:

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if you can't figure it out without asking, then you need to understand some basic thing before it, isn't it better to know that?

---

my point there was that 'it' is the basic thing.
no building block is too small to start with. i see no reason you can't learn 3bt offset7, then 5 inverted, then 5 then 3 then crossfollow in that order. (just a hypothetical example, i for one do not teach in this order) you still are learning the 'weave building blocks' that eventually make up most of the concept of 'weave'.

you are stuck on the concept that one thing is prerequisite for another, that one thing is more basic than another, that complete knowledge is intrinsically 'better' than fragmented yet potentially mindblowing insight.
i am not disagreeing with this concept. only with your reading of it.
firstly, that is only true for someone who wants to know all of poi.
secondly, we are only scratching the surface of poi. and what you consider a 'move' to me is a basic for a concept group noone has seen yet(or if they have it has been glimpsed and no more)
to return to the maths analogies
imo poi is presently at Euclidian Geometry
and tho the concepts of euclidian geometry still hold fairly well to this day, it is now a tiny part of an enormous subject, 'mathematics'. so much so that topics within this subject are so specialised only a handful of people worldwide can understand each other. and yet many of the mathematical leaps have come from a basic understanding of euclidian geometry, which, in its time was incredibly advanced yet hoarded by an elite who vaguely directed the proletariat with cryptic hints.....


R

((((((((((((( do not mind me in your serious conversation i just read the lovely words from Arashi and wanted to give him a big have a good day))))))))))))))

blue, spot on.

arashi, thats stage two, thats the first resting point. poi or staff as meditiation comes after long hours of study, the intrisic knoledge of motion and transition comes after a long and often solitary path, however, the basis of that path can vary, as blue has stated, but anyone who puts sufficient effort arrives at the first resting point eventually.

You see, infinity, like everything else in poi, works two ways. Its infintaly big, and infintly small. Fractal, weather you go in to perfection or out to exproation you eventually realise the whole nature.

thease things are eternally beutifull and unending, so why not share your discoveries, let the move you find pleasure spread that pleasure. And give us the whole mesure, we will understand.

everyuthing is here, every new idea, why withhold?

T

ps. I may we;ll ediot this at some point.

okay it's like this. last night i was finally starting to get back into my groove again with poi after basically putting them down for quite some time now, 8 months of solid dance training. and man, there's stuff one can do that you can't just pick up. not like teaching a hyperloop to a beginner. there's no way. it takes solid basics training, no way around it. but with the solid basics, they are easy. read that again. EASY.

what you said about poi being infinite and eventually finding the meditation is true. but there's more to the puzzle. for one, years and years of bad form is detrimental, injurious, and sloppy. [and hands down a clean, controlled spinner is more beautiful to watch, and has more options of where to spin.]

the koreans (i'm pretty sure it's koreans) teach archery the way glass and i teach poi, and then some. they don't even let you touch your bow for months! they teach you how to stand, breathe, release, and VISUALISE for a long time, then they put the bow in your hand. and the pinpoint accuracy and ability to correct mistakes of the korean -beginner- is far beyond the western newbie, who of course picks up the bow and the arrow and starts launching away until they eventually figure it out, and learn all that through trial and error. yes, eventually the westerner can catch up, and yes they do. but do you see the difference? along the way, on the journey, one is mindful and self aware, the other is trying to figure out things by doing them wrong. and learning bad form, and acquiring injuries along the way. and the koreans produce more champion olympic archers than anybody, per capita [or rather per archera].

ever do weight training? another example. you have to use proper form, and know how to use your arms, brace your abs, etc. while you lift, or you will hurt yourself. yes you will build muscle. but the technique will be sloppy, it will take longer to achieve the same results, and you will hurt yourself by involving other muscles improperly. whereas doing it correctly is meditative, healthy, and more efficient.

there's SOOOOO much to learn with poi! trust me! and so much to learn in life. why not do it mindfully, in the spice ecstasy, instead of like a water fat offworlder? a fremen spits on sloppy planes, cause sloppy planes can't ride worms.

Ok I hope this does not turn out to be too long a post...

Firstly I agree with most of Nx's, bluecat's and coleman's comments on the ethics of teaching as I hold the same ethos of teaching as well.

However I am quite alarmed at reading these posts to the lack of respect you have shown to Glass. I am lucky enough to have met most of you in person (I still look forward to meeting Arashi) and so I hope your comments are not meant to sound as harsh as they do. What Glass believes and the attitude he has to spinning is his own right to hold, If I was Glass in this position I would feel quite violated at the demands for him to share his knowledge, what he chooses to do with his knowledge is up to him and although I may not understand his reasons for doing so, as his friend and because of the respect I have for him I would not push him to show me these things. If Glass deems that his knowledge is ready to be shared then I will stand with both ears open however I have a lot of love for Glass and know that he has to make the choices that are right for him.

So far in the above posts I have witnessed an element of flaming which I do not think is worthy to be shown to Glass and I do not think he deserves it.

Turn the situation around guys and it was something you felt strongly about and all your friends turned on you demanding such things and then turning to rudeness how would you feel. Jesus where is all your hearts that u have to be so rude. As far as Glass' crypticness in other threads I love it and gives a lot of personality to his posts after all this is supposed to be fun, right?

Luv and hugs to Glass as I think he has been misrepresented in this thread, but also luv and hugs to the others because your arguments (when not being rude) are excellent and have given food for thought.

Just my 2 cents and I could be way off the mark but thats the way this thread seems to have appeared to me.

very interesting discussion going on here!

Quote:

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there's SOOOOO much to learn with poi! trust me!

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you keep mentinoing the basics that one should focus on in the beginning, and it being the foundation etc...

have you ever expounded on what you'd call 'the basics' that gets a student to where you beleive they should be with poi?

I'd be very interested to hear your, and glass too, list of basic competencies to be acheived firstly.

yes, agreed, and good point jez. I can no more dis drew than i can help being anoyed my his aloofness, but hey, I owe him a huge debt too, and like a junky I want the action!

for glass, wherever he is.

yep. agreed.

i misread a part of arashi's thread, and that misunderstanding led to my insulting drew. since rereading i have spotted my error and deleted what i wrote. i'm sorry drew.

and i shall publicly say i truly respect drew for his teaching of me and many others without which we woud all be much the poorer. i make no claims to 'expecting' him to impart his knowledge. my only arguements are with the manner in which he(you, cause i hope you are still reading this one ) does so.
and hopefully some of that will become a little clearer now...:

i also pointed out (in PM) sth i realise i should now tell arashi...: i hope you don't mind me playing devils advocat a little on this thread, after all it is your thread to begin with.

obviously i DO teach 'basics' and up, including visualisation and movement, when with a long term student. and so my arguements here are not so much about that aspect of teaching, more about the ethics and foibles of teaching those you come into contact with on a limited basis, such as every once in a while face to face, via video or via HoP.

just thought i should make that clear. and it is in this aspect of teaching that my arguements arise.

apologies once again drew, and i look forward to hearing from you.
R