How much fuel do you use? (staff and poi)

In an earlier thread, I mentioned that I had a really good busking night ($$$$$) over a four hour period where I used up 35L of kero.

Josh responded with...

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CHarles!!!
35 litres in 4 hours!!!! what were you doing?!!

::imagines charles dancing in a wading pool filled with kero in a kevlar suit to a dumbstruck audience::
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That was with lots and lots of burnoffs and keeping the fuel warm by dunking the staffs hot into the fuel, as well as frequently putting the staff out with fast moves. Also the length of my staffs (1.4 or 1.5 metres) means they use the fuel up a bit more than shorter staves would.

If I'm performing or busking during summer on a hot dry day, I tend to average about 10L an hour of kero or Pegasol, but I can get that down to about 5L an hour if I try to limit it.

How much do you guys typically use for an hour's burn?

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Charles (INFERNO)

newdolbel@hotmail.com
http://juggling.co.nz

i've been known to use over 80 oz in a few hours.. but 35litres? you carry that much with you? thats a lot.. *shrug* hey u use what u feel confident using as far as i'm concerned. if they trwirl out drench them and light up again.. hey more power to u ;) i ended up borrowing some coleman fuel to add to my lamp oil this weekend cause i started running out. great thing about twirling at a camping ground ;)

A Gallon can last me through about 8 to 10
20 minute shows using two sets of standard size (2inch or so, square) cathedral folded poi and my staff.
Sorry...too tired to do the conversion

::listening for Charles to grumble about those damn lazy American ::

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Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...

http://www.pyromorph.com

[This message has been edited by Pele (edited 14 November 2001).]

No problem, Pele, I got your back. A gallon's roughly 4 liters (actually, a teensy bit less... say, about 3.85 liters).

So Charles hauling 35 liters around is carrying about 9 gallons or so. Man, that is [i]heavy[/]!

And Pele's 8-to-10 20-minute shows use up nearly four liters.

Everyone got all that?

Kmactane, have I told you lately how much I love you?

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Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...

http://www.pyromorph.com

My results are about the same as Pele's: I can get 10-12 burns out of a gallon of lamp oil using my standard wicks, so that's about 13 oz per burn. Some of that gets spun off, obviously. I don't try to recover spun-off fuel, but I do try to let my wicks drip off a little back into my soaking tub.

The most I've ever done is 10 burns in one night...it was at a big, crazy party and I was feeling really on.

I don't haul it!! Sheesh, that would put my back out...

I get a cab from my apartment to the area, and normally only use that much when busking, as the more fire and heat there is, the better the take.

But jeeeez guys, quit it with the ounces and the ten 20 minute shows and stuff. I'm juggler as Cantus has frequently pointed out so I can't read or write or count very well. It's hard to decipher all these different amounts of time and quantititys and multpiliers and stuff, can I ask people to put an hourly rate down. ---<please >---

Like this for Pele

10 x 20 minute shows = 200 minutes = 3 1/3 hours.

1 Gallon = 4 litres (roughly note spelling or litres)

4 divided by 3.3333 = 1.2 litres per hour

That's not right!?!? Can you guys work it out for me???

And Adam, when you say "burns" do you mean one dipping? Coz I use about 1/2 a litre each time i dunk, meaning I would done 70 'burns' that night?

I'm confused...

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Charles (INFERNO)

newdolbel@hotmail.com
http://juggling.co.nz

1/2 a litre each time you dunk?!!!

How big are your wicks?

Thats crazy.

I dont think that 3 of us busking used up 5 litres last time, probably more like 3-4 .. that was about an hour and a half.

Actually Charles, your math was about right.
Worked for me at least. *shrug*

I am an ARTIST damnit!!! Not a mathemetician!!!!

(or speller!!!)

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Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...

http://www.pyromorph.com

Now that I think about it, it might be less than that, I'd always assumed my tin was 2 litres but I think it might be closer to one, in which case its only 1/4 of a litre...

My wicks are either 2 feet (each end) of 3 feet, not all that big by NZ standards.

Please remember that the fuel is hot, and a lot evaporates when its bubbling after I dunk.

Also, my staffs are new (i.e. not bent much) sometimes my burnoffs put out one of the wicks, so I need to dunk straight away.

I'm certain the burnoffs are part of the reason for my high consumption...

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Charles (INFERNO)

newdolbel@hotmail.com
http://juggling.co.nz

if kate and I have a big twirl, we will go through 5 litres...its pretty rare tho.

I think your tin is probly closer to one, 1/2 a litre per dunk sounds like a bit too much

My wicks are 4 inches by 1.5 feet of 1/8 inch thick kevlar/cotton.

The last time I twirled for more than a few burns, I got through just over 4 litres in about 2 hours. That wasn't 2 hours of solid burning though, I was also trying to teach people the weave so I had my wicks unlit so I could hear them. It was maybe about an hour of actual burning.
At that rate, I'd use 16 litres in 4 hours.
My wicks are fairly small though, so it's not surprising that you get through more than twice as much as me.

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King of all things Walrus

Again, Charles with the smoking of the crack...

I'm so confused.

The only way you could be going through that much fuel per hour is if the actual wick length you're talking about is 3 feet. You mean 3 feet of kevlar right folded into a wick smaller than one foot right? Not swinging around actual wicks the size of small children made from hundreds of feet of kevlar.

I too can get 10-12 burns per gallon. We've talked about this before (do a search Charles ) I would find it difficult to light up 12 times in an hour. That would be dunking and lighting immidiately. Keep in mind that I use lamp oil which burns slower.

If you give the wick a squeeze first rather than just spinning out you can recycle some of the fuel too...

I officially challenge you to show me the 4 hour video of you spinning 35 liters of fuel. I'm not sure that they sell crack that strong in the US.

HOMEWORK ASSIGNMENT FOR CHARLES:
DUE TOMORROW:

1) Get a measuring cup (Yes you do have one, go ask the wife. Not being sexist, just figure she's probably the brains of the household )

2) Fill with fuel.

3) Dip in 1 poi.

4) Use formula:
Liquid Absorbed = Initial Volume - Final Volume

5) Clean up lab station.

6) Report back to the class.

NYC, are you talking staffs or poi? And no-one has answered my question about whether a burn is until it goes out or whether you never keep dunking lit...

And yes (ha ha ha ), my wicks are 3 feet of 3 inch wide kevlar cotton blend/Wale Tape bound up around a tube core. Not enormous three foot wide balls of kevlar (my tin would have to be a bathtub!!!)

As an indication of how the fuel can get used up, if there are some firies in the crowd who are getting uppity, I have my most fuel expensive trick (other than burnoffs) that I use in front of them.

***Please don't do this unless you are completely confident of not hitting yourself and that there is nothing/no-one within a 10 metre radious around you***

I dunk the staff (still lit) completely in the fuel until it is dripping flaming kero into the tin, I then stand in the middle of the square and slowly do a forwards figure 8, changing hands at each sidespin and increasing the speed until I put out the flames. This usuallly take between 10-30 seconds, and it uses up almost all of the fuel from dunking.

So, lets say, underestimatingly, that the dunk used up 200ml (.2 of a litre) and I did this 10 times during the 4 hours (again another underestimate).

This means I used up 2 whole litres in period of 2-5 minutes.

Add to this that some of my burnoffs use up most of the dunk in the first few seconds

And the evaporation of the kero while it's hot in the tin.

And the fact that I often leave a staff (or two) burning while I'm passing the hat around.

This makes for a combination of factors that make my busking style very fuel hungry. I think these small parts alone probably make up for 10 litres over a four hour period.

Is there anyone in NZ here who knows me or can come to Aotea Square sometime so I can prove it?

I feel ---<sniff>--- like no-one believes me...

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Charles (INFERNO)

newdolbel@hotmail.com
http://juggling.co.nz

NYC - Great suggestion, you left out a few serious factors though...

The wick is on staffs, not poi.

The wick is either still alight or hot and smoking.

The fuel is warm or hot and frequently lights up (i put it out again ASAP).

But I will try it, if the rain doesn't pour down agin like it has almost every day for the last month...

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Charles (INFERNO)

newdolbel@hotmail.com
http://juggling.co.nz

I believe you. There are too many variables that change from person to person, performance to performance you know?
For me a burn is from light to smother or burn out time.
Why do you keep your fuel so hot? I don't and it lights back up fine. Yes there will be evaporation when you put your hot wicks in there but it shouldn't eat up so much, at least in my mind.
Then again, if it works for you and your budget can support it then you get down with your bad self!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...

http://www.pyromorph.com

Holy crap you're friggin crazy!

Yeah, I guess if you're dunking lit wicks into kerosine tins and splashing it about a 10 meter radius, leaving lit staves about, doing multiple burnoffs for one lighting....

Dear God child, stay the heck away from my city! Since my recent burns have been inside a club and I'm a bit of a saftey freak NONE of that would fly on my block.

I usually soak in lamp oil, squeeze out, close the fuel, leave the fuel area to go to a spinout area, spin out, leave the spinout area to go to the performance area with only my poi and a lighter (and safety guy or gal) then light up. After I'm done I return to fuel area with smouldering snuffed out wicks and redunk if necessary. I have two sets of poi so I can get two lights per dunk. I can probably get 12 burns (light to burn out or smother) per gallon or more. My burns are way longer than kero too as lamp oil burns the longest that I've seen.

Since I've got a few people that I regularly spin with we can keep this up for quite a while. I've had more fun doing one or two burns apiece and then stopping for a while to let the crowd change... but then again I operate without the benefit of that New Zealand Grade A Crack.

*laughing at your reaction*

You do fire performing inside nightclubs and you call me crazy?!?!?!

And you say you're a safety freak? Well (pumps up his chest) I'M the ENERGIZER SAFETY BUNNY!!! Ask Pele, my safety concerns are probably as high as anyone else on this site...

But, to make you feel a little better. This is only the way I perform/busk when I have a large area avaiable to me, with natural or designed barriers between me and the audience. I also keep a VERY close eye on the entire area (a skill I learnt from doing my children's entertainment) and will often just stop until an possible situation is resolved.

There's no way I would do this in any area less than 8 metres squared (approximately 24 feet squared) with lots of ventilation.

I'm a lot more conservative outside of these conditions. Typically, I would then use about about half as much fuel in other situations.

However, I often make 2 or three times as much money busking for a few hours in the evenings as I do in my day job. Apart from bruises and that burn with doubles I posted a while ago, no-ones ever been hurt, including myself, nothing has caught on fire, and the fuel evaporates away from the stones pretty quickly.

I've been doing this for over a year now, and while there haven't been any problems, I'm probably even more of a "Safety Bunny" than when I started.

So, when can I come to NYC and show you my techniques?

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Charles (INFERNO)

newdolbel@hotmail.com
http://juggling.co.nz

[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 15 November 2001).]

Let's see if my poor beaten city can go one month in a row without a major disaster before I invite you... Just in case

[Jump to "Fox 5 News"...
"... claiming to be a New Zealand Fire Performer accidentaly ignited over 35 liters of kerosine and triggering a chain reaction which crippled most of downtown Manhattan. The Mayor responded by declaring 'Forget it, I quit, I'm moving to New Jersey'...."]

Hey, Folks, sorry it's taken me whole day to get back here...

Pele-- Awwwww! Thanks! Gosh, just for doing some Metric conversions?

Other general notes:

The American spelling is liters (and meters, for that matter). "Commonwealth English" (UK, NZ, AUS, and possibly Canada) favors litres and metres. Being American, I'll keep going with the American spelling. (I'll also continue to refer to underground trains as "subways" rather than "the tube", and those hand-held, battery-powered light-making devices as "flashlights" rather than "torches" -- to me, a torch is a stick with some flaming stuff on the end.)
My definition of "one burn" is, like someone else mentioned, generally a full dunk (with cool or at least unlit wicks), ignition, and then go until the thing either goes out on its own, or is getting pretty low and you have someone smother it. With standard poi wicks in my area, and using kero, this generally takes about five minutes. Maybe as much as seven or eight for staff wicks. (Shorter times all around for white gas.)

However, I think that in general San Franciscan parlance, "a burn" is also partly a measure of time and of completion. If something weird were to happen that caused someone's wicks to go out after only a minute or two, we'd tend to think of it as more like "half a burn".

Charles -- you can really spin your wicks out in only 30 seconds? God damn,
man, what are you doing with them? It's not that I don't believe you; I'm just really impressed.

Can you get someone to take some video of this act? I'd really love to see it. (And going over to Auckland for a look-see is just not an option for me right now.

Either way, I'm starting to see how you can chow through fuel like that.

I'm not even gonna mention the amount of fuel me and mealstrom go though in a session until he pips up. Judging from nyc's reaction to charles's minor fuel useage he might fall over dead

However I will say one of the nights I hung out with a group of Fire Breathers they killed over 7 gallons in lamp oil on breathing alone between 4 of them. I rarely had a chance to spin while they were blowin everywhere. Only killed off 3 gallons of kero and spent a good 3/4th of the night standing in the conner paranoid holding a towel.

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We are all in the cosmic movie. That means the day you die you watch your whole life repeating for eternity. So you'd better have some good things happen in there and have a fitting climax. --Jim Morrison

Most Memerable crowd saying "Hey look that dude's gonna set himself on fire again!"

Kmoctane - I've had several people comment that my "style", is much more focussed on speed than anything else.

I think this is a complement, but I'm not sure. The very first time I spun out a burn on both ends at the same time I had this grin on my face for a week!!

Since then, I've practiced speed as much as moves, and have had 4 distinct speed increases, where I notice, it's suddenly got a lot faster for no reason at all.

I'm currently working on a burst of speed to put out all four wicks on my doubles at the same time, and can do it about 1 out of 2 attempts (this is NOT with fully soaked wicks, yet... )

The three moves I use is the double-handed figure 8 as above (my fastest by a big margin), a pirouette figure 8 and BTB pinwheel (sometimes i let this go, so i don't do it as much as the other two).

Likewise for doubles, is a pirouette figure 8 and working on the alternating double shoulder roll.

Well, I'll be honest and say thats me done boasting for a little while (I am quite proud of this aspect of my skills).

Charles (the speed demon (yeah right))

Charles, I just had a conversation discussing speed spinning with Frenzie...funny.
Anyway, NYC and Charles....sheesh, drag me into it why don't you? Yes Charles, other than me (the safety Nazi), you are one of the safest people I have spoken with...however I have met NYC and know that he is very safety geared and very spacially aware as well. You are both wonderful men that I just love to pieces...'kay? We good now?
Now for the real question burning at me... what is the issue with spinning indoors? Happens all the time, and yet I always find people who are shocked when I say that. : :
Oh well.

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Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...

http://www.pyromorph.com

OK OK, I humbly apologise for doing the human thing and perhaps over exagerating how much fuel my wicks soak up...

Did NYC's little test and found out a hot dunk tends to absorb between 80ml-100ml (0.12 of a litre) on each end. I tend to only get about 3 or 4 dunks out of my tins, so I guess there is a lot more evaporation than I thought... (looks emabrassed).

However, I went hard with the timing of putting out my freshly dunked wicks and my best time last night was 13 seconds, most common one was just under 25 seconds (I'll have to work on that... )

So my earlier post of 10-30 seconds was a bit too low (an underestimate, oops). but at least I'm a big enough little man to admit it...

Oops, and PS, yes, when I get my A into G, I will get a video of me putting out my wicks, I've been meaning to get some taped stuff for ages now, so yuou guys are all welcome to keep hassling me until I actually do it...

(009 - Liscense to hassle)

[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 16 November 2001).]

a gallon is more like 4.5 litres isn't it?

Anyway, I make it that at that rate Charles is using almost 3/4 a minute. Which... seems... somewhat unlikely?

OH NO

to complicate things further...

To convert
gallon (UK)
to
litre
multiply by
4.546092

To convert
gallon (US)
to
litre
multiply by
3.785412

In US gallons then Charles litre per minute rate is...
(35 x 3.79) / (4 x 60)

= 0.552 (3sf)

(errr, am I right?)

which still seems pretty high to me... Half a litre a minute? I mean, when I do an hour long burn I use about 3 or 4 litres, which is ten times less, and I do my fair share of hot dunking and spinning off and breathing...

Dear Crackhead,

I'm still trying to sort out your numbers for you... you state:

"Did NYC's little test and found out a hot dunk tends to absorb between 80ml-100ml (0.12 of a litre) on each end. "

Wouldn't 0.12 litre be 120 ml?

Lets just assume you use 100 ml per wick. This means that you'd get (4500/100) 45 dunks or 22.5 dunks with both ends PER gallon of fuel.

With your magical "35 liters" that would have been 350 dunks or 175 double sided dunks. In four hours.

SUUUUUUUUUURE buddy, put the staff down and come talk to the nice doctors....

I kid of course. I can't imagine you getting that much evaporation either.

Also, are you really that attached to Kero? Kero sucks. I think you'd get longer burns and less black boogers with lamp oil but with the amount of fuel you're using I'd stick with whatevers cost effective...

As for spinning indoors, compared to you I'm baking brownies... Cement floors, keeping fuels away from fire, safety crews.

And I really, really, really, really like my welding gloves when i'm working safety. I can grab and hold a lit poi for a while, or I can grab it with both hands and smother it. It also makes me feel powerful... "DIE FIRE!" (snuffs with hands)

Oops, must be a contact high from Mr. Cracky von Crackcrack over here.

Blackbird - Where are you getting your figures from? The few moves there that I describe i don't do often, (jeez, I wouldn't be able to do 10 minutes of that, let alone four hours), they are just an example of some of the cumalitive effects of the way I tend to busk. Most of my other moves are much less fuel hungry, they are just the top few.

Besides, 3/4 litre a minute? Even if I could do and afford that, I wouldn't post it on this BB coz I wouldn't expect anyone to believe me.

Try and average of about 8 litres an hour, does that sound more realistic (and read back through some of the threads, I'm sorry if they are a bit waffly).

NYC - oops, 0.12 was a typo, should be .10...

As to the number of dunks, that's why I'm thinking there is a lot of evaporation...coz I know I don't dunk as often as that!

End of the day, whatever the reason, I had 35 litres when I began and four hours later I had a little bit left which I used to dunk the wicks with and went home...That's what happened, I'll leave it to chemisty people like you to tell me exactly why.

And yes, kero is definitely the cheaper option, I can get from a service staion for $1.80 including GST. And I claim the GST back at the end of the year, making it $1.60 per litre, as opposed to $5.00 for lamp oil and $4-$6 for pegasol.

But (wobbly as my maths can be), 35/4 = 8.75. So will you be happy if I can do 8 or more in an hour?
I guess we'll have to agree to disgree ont he rest, until you come over here in 2003 and I will glady use up 8.00 or more litres in an hour at the convention here in Auckland. Got your ticket yet?

1 hour should suffice I hope? I'm not all that keen to do another four hour session (not that sort of session, either, I aint and don't and never do done no drugs), my forearms are still sore and it's been nigh on a week since then...

If so we better leave it alone, as i think we are stressing out our poor wonderful Pele.

Cheers

Crackhead (apparently!)

[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 16 November 2001).]

It sounds to me like you are, indeed, losing a lot to evaporation, and I'd wager it's caused by dunking your still-hot and even still-burning wicks into your fuel supply. I assume you get lots of bubbling and evaporation every time you do that, right?

A suggestion, then, if you want to drop your fuel consumption some: get three or four sets of toys, all alike, and rotate through them. That way one toy can be cooling down while you pick up another, and then yet another, and so on, so that by the time a toy gets re-dunked, it doesn't cause so much evaporation.

Note to NYC. I've reread some of my posts here and I apologise if I seem a bit aggressive and defensive. I just wasn't expecting this to turn into me defending my statements, i was hoping that lots of people would put their fuel susage down and some would be similar to mine, making the issue a bit less focussed directly on me.

Can you accept my apology

Thanks for the tips KMO, however, I'm not that concerned by dropping my fuel usage, I've experimented a lot with different busking techniques, and the more fuel I use, the more $$$ I tend to get per litre.

While most of us are impressed by technical ability, the standard tourist or nightclubber just likes lots and lots of fire and speed, so I give it to em. And then they give me money.

So I take it...

(ain't it great the way the world works sometimes)
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Charles (INFERNO)

newdolbel@hotmail.com
http://juggling.co.nz

[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 16 November 2001).]