Inversions, insides, atomics, oh my!

*looks for weasal, thinks it unlikly*

some mad maori was talking about 5bt btb inversions a while ago....

[censored] that tho.

T

ok
1- you can isolate inversions... so I have no clue what the hell your critique of the fact that i use isolation in my inversions is about.. it makes no sense.. its like saying that an isolated weave doesnt weave because its isoalted.. inversions are not a center of spin issue.. inversions are a planar issue.. thus you can invert planes will simultaneaously using isoaltions to change the center of spin.. infact all inversion are EASIER isoalted than not but can be done either way..

2- I have no idea what your trying to demonstrate.. we all know inversions can be done normally.. however we are adding the other ways that inversions can be done.. fleshing out the family if you will.. thus moving past 'normal' inversions to get at some of the other inversions.. ie.. the butterfly inversion (one hand normal inversion, second hand antipsun inversion) and the antispun inversions, which are obvious..

3- none of the above videos that I have posted have ANY crossers.. nor have the discussions, unless i tangented somewhere..

4- the inverse butterfly is kinda what spawned the whole inverted butterfly weave thing anyway.. so I'm confused on that point..

5- inverse btb arent' hard at all.. the 3bt ones are harder than the 5bt ones imo because they take place more to the center rather than out to the sides where one has more room.. that being said.. I've only gotten the 3bt antipsun inverted weave btb.. because the 5bt btb antipun is just too pressed for space that it makes attempts at getting the inversion virtually impossible..

I'm confused on most of these points since they arent' related to anything being discussed.. I mean.. they aren't crossers.. the antispin is menat to show that it can be done.. not a botched sideproject of inverting.. and the bit about keeping hands together just goes way off.. have a smoke.. chill out.. come back to me later.. I can probably answer most of your questions if you hit me up on aim or something.. I wont be here to discuss things for about another week..
I've been uber bogged down in school work that I'll be lucky if I get anyspare time between now and Dec. 3rd.. then finals.. then vegetation for the holidays.. but seriously.. do hit me up on aim.. I'm sure there's something coherent in those ramblings.. just no idea what...

Really now...

Do we actually need to do BTB inversions? Normal ones are good enough for me!

we need everything.. lest our desire for infinte poi knowledge fail..

Knowledge is one thing. Spending coutless hours learning a move Ill never use aside from mesuring my poinis is just rediculous.

Then again, I did just stumble upon BTB hyperloop weaves last night and can do em fairly well with little practice so maybe they arent as hard as I make em out to be. Either way, its not something Im gonna strive to learn.

Rev,

>>3- none of the above videos that I have posted have ANY crossers.. nor have the discussions, unless i tangented somewhere..
>>...
>>have a smoke.. chill out.. come back to me later..

hehe. that's what got me all confused in the first place, I think. if you don't consider that 'crossed', what is it? just seperated toward the outside of the opposite elbows? hehe. that's half way to being 'indian' crossed, isn't it? anyways, i gave you props for the anti-spins and isolations i found in the area. they are hawt and do feel smoother than the extended arm ones in a certain way. a way that doesn't involve the precision of hands being together, which I also like playing with. the next closest crcles inside are isolations, then farther seperated you have to do that anti-spin stuff, right?

>> I'm confused on most of these points since they arent' related to anything being discussed..

topic says 'inverted weaves, inside planes'. i now understand that what you're doing in that initial video is not the 'most basic' inversion, which others might not have caught because of the continued talking about what we're talking about. on that note... I'll try to catch you on aim some time and see what you're doing the weekend after school's out. i'll still be on vacation and might in new orleans around then. peace.

-- dut

ps. assume anything I didn't comment on was me agreeing with you.

"the next closest circles inside are isolations, then farther seperated you have to do antispin.."

umm.. not sure what you mean.. but I'm 95% sure the answer is no...

isolations aren't the next closest inside circles.. see the inversion comes from (hope arashi doesnt slap me for this) hand position for the most part.. From there the poi have a little leeway in what they can or can't do.. hence being able to isoalte the poi which results in a bit of a seperation of the hands, but the same motions and direction relative each other..

Antispin is when you have the hands doing a forward roll, with reverse spinning poi.. yes it does seperate the hands a bit more.. but its the antispin that makes the hands need to seperate, not the seperation that means you have to do antispin.. I can seperate my isolated ones as far apart as I can and never have to spin a different way..

I had a conceptual breakthrough yesterday about inverted weaves and a much better way of defining them than saying "crossed" or "uncrossed" arms. Basically you can distinguish between inverted weaves where you enter the inverted plane with the leading or following poi.

When you enter with the trailing poi you get "uncrossed" type inverted weaves such as the buzzsaw weave or notcoleman5.

When you enter with the leading poi you get "crossed arm" type inverted weaves. I was going to say that the trailing poi has to follow the leading poi into the inverted area, but thinking about it I dunno if that's true - I think I can envision a move where you don't have to. Arashi?

Anyway, just a thought that's clarified my thinking...

well yes that's mostly true. at least for the more common inversions... read my third post on second page for some slight variations on the main theme you got there, which in this case was a variation of the notcoleman5. you can still cross your arms with... either leading and following poi... leading off the inverted part of the pattern.
half inveresions are another exception, in fact that's prety much the description of them. but mathematically they are more like normal inside/outside weaves, the crossovers mostly happen "outside". insides and outsides are reflective.

Cheers, that's given me a few things to play with

so now...
first, i'd like to reiterate that i don't describe a move specifically by whether it has crossed hands or uncrossed hands- that was just a teaching tool. as i said, i define them by the entrance, which is, i believe, the best way -for almost the same as the realisation you had about defining it by the leading or following poi- but even more specific, necessary because of the stuff we just talked about. there's variations and understandings about these basic inversions we've yet to get to. (i finally got on sperculism and there's still a slight bit of misunderstanding), and also i think some simple moves that are not being known yet because of the language problem. read my posts keeping the ENTRANCE in mind. notcoleman 5 is VERY different from what i call a 5 beat inversion. a 5 beat inversion is really hard to do technically (smoothly at least) whereas a notcoleman5 is relatively simple. notcoleman5 is, i believe i'd call it a 2 beat inversion within a 5 beat weave... 5 beat inversion is going STRAIGHT from a 5 beat and crossing over to inverted planes [rather than the normal outside crossover] so the "barrel roll" (gag) happens with your hands all crickety upt. i wish someone understood me cause i'd like to know if there's a better way, or if i need to reexamine my math...

Naw I get that, the 5bt inversion you're talking about there is something I've played with, but it's a bugger to get smooth and to keep properly split time. The notcoleman5 is much easier, I see what you mean about ti having a 2bt character.

Heh I tend to think of moves (especially this stuff) in terms of where there's "room" to fit a poi and how to make more room, which I guess isn't so different from your perspective.

Yeah arashi man, I get you,

its a little bum of a move though, but comes in usefull....

T

ROFL... man re-reading some of those posts made my day... ah that was a good laugh...

aight.. well.. umm I think the question has to do something with what I was doing in the video that I claimed was an inverted bf weave but arashi claimed wasnt.. and he wanted me to describe it in terms of some other move.. or something.. I dunno.. I kinda lost myself in reading on the posts.. and don't want to go back through them yet again..

if there isnht an answer somewhere in all this arashi, then by all means please restate the question...

what I was attempting to do in that video.. though I know better know.. was to take the right hand.. and do a normal inversion.. as I would when I did a 3bt inverted weave.. ie. the lead hand entered forward 3bt inverted weave.. the left hand however did an antispun inversion.. the best way I can explain this is a bit complicated.. (more complicated than necessary, but I'm hoping to avoid ANY confusion) and I'm sorry this isnt a move, but I don't want to go into trying to explain antipun inverted weaves.. these motion descriptions are poi free..

stick the left arm straight out and bend it 90 degrees at the elbow to the right.. (it should be parallel with the chest)... now do the opposite with the right arm.. so that the right arm sits with the right elbow on the left hand, and the right hand one the left elbow.. you can go ahead and loosely grab the left elbow...

now take the left hand and spin reverse circles on the right side there.. and when you are ready roll the left hand under the right arm (through the negative space lol) and over the right arm to the left side... while still spinning a reverse circle..

the left hand should pass through like the follow hand on forward 3bt inverted weave, but with a reverse spin of the wick the whole time..


personally I think its easier to think of it as an antispun inverted weave.. but I don't want to be accused of misusing that term.. what I have been calling an antispun inverted weave is an inverted weave that the wick spins reverse circles while the hands go through the forward inverted weave motions.. like what I described right up there..

anyway.. I probably am still beeing vague.. or answering the wrong question.. so I'll stop now..

no problem. one more time. bottom of page three. try the move, play with it. try threading it different ways before crossing over to the front. crossovers _up._ one day we will be able to use your vid as a reference. but until then i'm giving up. the next round of me wasting my life away typing will be just more theory. and you'll have this light turn on. we think too differently, i think. rather than try to come to an understanding about your video yet i'm just going to keep on with my own methods. it'll click at some point.

happy new year. my new year's gift to you all will be about 500 really hard moves to obsess over. keep playing with watermills (inside weaves with crossovers down), inside butterflies, inside ttn! oh and play with 5 beat inversions just a bit cause i'll drop a bomb later...

got those... or at least had those.. havent spun me poi in 2 months.. I look forward to being bombed.. and will these bombs be in the form of the video we were promised..

and I will edit this post when I read the question, and try the move.. so check back later..

edit: that's very close.. to what I did in the first video.. that lead to the inverted bf weave stuff...

try this.. take a forward bf, bring it inside to the watermill point.. thread it so the left hand is on top, now instead of rolling it out in front of you, roll it over your shoulder so that as you turn a little you'll be in the left plane doing your normal left side of the bf weave..

now take that motion.. and try to incorporate it into a bf weave... start with a forward bf on the right.. as the right hand comes over the left (wrist on top of wrist) they should turn so that the right wrist is hooked around the left facing towards youand the left is hooked around the right wrist facing away.. try and hold that wrist lock, and you roll your hands (right leading) through the inverted weave motions, out to the left side plane.. one the other side, you have to untwist and retwist your bf weave like you would a normal weave..

what the left hand does in that is antispin inversion.. the planes stay contrary like they do in normal inversion.. its just one is moving counter to its spin..

since you can do same direction ttns.. which use sort of an inside (am I using that term right, I normally do, but anyway) you know that half of the ttn comes from normal twisting (like you od a weave).. the other half comes from what we call antispin.. so all you have to do to antispin a weave is to do the antispin half of the ttn to the other side and consequently other antipsun half of the same direction ttn.. (the same way you use the other two halves to make a normal weave.. )

with that motion in mind. try doing your inversions.. they have to 'roll' forward, while spinning backward.. so that neat little thing that happened in the butterfly will happen again here, only with both poi.. I described those above a bit diffferently..

am I jumping to far around?

ok... so here's where i'm at with insides and inversions and stuff.
firstly, some terms...
inside: between the arms and the body
buzzsaw: between the arms
inverted: the planes are facing in different directions.

also, i number transitions in the series that they fit into, so, for a same direction split time move...
transition 0: hand on the crossed side leads to same side under other arm
transition 1: hand on the same side leads to crossed side
transition 2: hand on the crossed side leads to same side over other arm
so a normal 3bt is a 1 followed by a 1, a 5bt is a 2 followed by a 2, a 2bt is a 1 followed by a 0. there's a few others, 3 is used for 7s, -1 is the one you'd do to do a 2bt offset from a 5, etc.
if you're lost already, it's only going to get worse...

so, a buzzsaw is an inversion that you transition into with the leading poi, whilst doing the 0 transition in a 2bt.
a crossed arm buzzsaw inversion is an inversion you transition into from a 1, and does the barrel roll around the arms thing.
this also means that spinning at your sides is an inversion, but as the poi are in different planes, it's kind of irrelevant. you can also do a buzzsaw inversion from a 2 transition, but it's a right bitch not to get confused on.

then theres inversions with the trailing poi... do a 1 transition, and bring the trailing poi up between you arms (buzzsaw), over the crossed arm and lead back to the other side, then do the same with the other poi... you get a 3bt weave where the planes are always facing in different directions. from this, you can add in the crossed arms buzzsaw inversion as well, which leads me to call the 3bt inverted weave with the trailing poi buzzsawed a (1,1)3bt inverted weave, and the buzzsaw crossed arms inversion a 1 transition buzzsaw inversion, because you can get into it from any 1 transition, normal or inverted. you can also only take the leading poi up the buzzsaw zone (oo-er) and have it come back to the same side for some straightjacket type action, transition still s.j.ed and then bring the other one up buzzsaw to escape...

then we have another kind of inversion, where one poi is inside, and one is outside. try doing this: hand on the crossed side is spinning outside, hand on the same side is spinning inside, by reaching over the crossed arm. you can transition this to the other side of the body, and at the same time swap which poi is spinning inside, in a kind of 2bt weave like way... the poi on the inside each time leads to the outside, and the outside poi trails into the inside. then you can start playing with what happens to the inside poi... it can go outside for a beat, come over the other arm and go back inside on the same side, or it can transition to the other side and come up inside or outside. or it can come up buzzsaw for a beat and go back inside, or transition, or drag the other poi into a buzzsaw invert...

still with me? the upshot of all this is that you can do a 3bt inverted weave between the inside and outside on one side of the body, then transition the whole lot to the other side and do the same again, or do some other seriously weird stuff like a weave where one poi transitions outside and one inside, swap which is in and out and transition back, or something that looks like a same direction split time ttn, but is actually one going between inside and outside, and one going between outside and buzzsaw, like an antispin 2bt but without the antispin, or always have one outside, one buzzsaw, but swap outside and buzzsaw every beat. or you can do watermills (like a windmill but between outside and inside. they work like windmills more than weaves because you can't get any shoulder turning in to add beats (so they are reels really)) with inverts in. or you can do water mills with buzzsaw inverts on either end to make a madly spinning poi arm mess. or you can inverted thruwrap into the inside, swap inside and outside, inverted thruwrap back. and probably much much more, but my head is hurting.

--ben

nice. thanks!

real quick. three beat inside weave. if we get this right then we'll move on to atomics. but until this is understood we'll just make more headaches.

do a 3 beat trinity watermill.
crossovers are down. trinity is just to make the crossover point obvious. move the crossover point around. move it around so that the crossover is right next to your arm. now, if you put the crossover between your arms,
IOW straight up, but MAKE SURE you don't do any crossovers anywhere else, IOW once you go inside, stay in circles until you come around again to crossover up, you'll notice that if you point the crossover up the hand motion looks almost the same as an inversion, but it's really just a normal crossover as seen from an audience. you can do any weave INSIDE and it's a totally different move from an inversion. an inversion has another crossover built in before you go back to the regular outside crossover. you can go from insides to inversions to insides, (to outsides to insides, etc.) but fundamentally they are two different things. i think that rev's video is a 5 or 6 beat inside butterfly. but definitely not an inversion. to me, in this case, "antispin" is just half of an isolation.

also note that for every inside weave and every inversion there is a corresponding airwrap. really there's an airwrap for every kind of crossover, and then many more. notice you can do that "static" wrap, or what i call an inside 2 beat gordian knot, two ways now. from out to in, or from in to out.

how do you get antispin as half of an isolation? its two centers of spin moving in different directions..

still confused on how contrary planes result as insides when not inside (not between arms and body).. thats my only problem.. because what I do with antispin and with the bf and with the normal same direction are all identical with respect to all of the key points.. (Planes, hand motion, etc)..

I think I'll pick up my poi next week and give a spin.. maybe then I'll have something meaningful to contribute..