Inversions, insides, atomics, oh my!

well here we go with the insults again!
I'm not getting involved in that.
my finger is not in my ass, i went back and read that post many times before i put it in and tried to make it as gentle a way to explain my point as possible.

there's this pattern in the way you interact. and it's too bad cause you've got a good head and a some talent, so i keep trying talk to you, but you don't listen. and your way of talking is very argumentative, which might be okay if you weren't someone WHO (self-admittedly)HARDLY KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT HE'S ASSERTING. hte airwrap discussions got destroyed, mangled and buried, and nipped in the bud before they began, and you don't even see why, and here i am CALMLY trying to show you how, cause it's right here in front of us, and you're insulting AGAIN and after that really insulting elitist label you plugged onto me the last time we spent more than 5 minutes together i really am starting to give up. i'm about to not have a lot of time again and i won't be able to do this again for who knows how long. but i've spent all my time trying to get you to understand my terms cause i know while i'm gone you're going to start posting big huge posts about THE WRONMG THING and get a whole misunderstanding built up. why does this have to be so hard? sigh

i've tried to explain it a few times now. di you try doing my suggestions yet? you say you see the differeence, well, that difference is the point. i'm not arbitrarily making this stuff up, there's reasons. asking me nicely to justify those reasons is one thing. but you're simply telling me i am wrong, that this move IS inverted, but i just don't understand that it is!
you seem really hung up on your claim that this is inverted. why? because it proves that you know something i don't? i dunno. it's just a label for a move! and to keep thinking it is inverted i feel would be a mistake, because of reasons that i haven't gotten to tell you, we can't even get past this point and the reason is WAY down the road from here... look how much trouble we're having here and we have something to look at, a reference! you can keep truning me in to this evil figure in your mind but you seem really shut out to the fact that all i'm trying to say is, you need to listen more to people that know more about something than you do.

i'm not your dad, stop fighting me! i never said ANYTHING like this...

"i don't want to hear your crap rev. i know what i'm talking about but i still can't do it or explain it."

i HAVE explained it. i DO have an idea what i'm talking about, and i keep telling you that the problem is YOU don't know what I'M talking about.

actually you say you DO know what i'm talking about, and that makes this WORSE cause that means that you really are just staring me in the face and telling me i'm wrong. i feel like i'm heatedly arguing with a child about whether or not the sky is really blue. fine call the sky pink but it's going to move us backward and not forward. especially when you go around telling other people that this is inverted, and then later when they start playing with the other moves they start getting confused. any fun i was having teaching you this has left.
and if you can't keep from insulting me i really am not wasting any more of my time with you. please try and be more aware, huh? i feel like i've walked on eggshells here and done everything except said "NO REV YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT AND I DO" but you've put that attitude onto me. if you read my words i've been very congenial but you keep turning this into an argument about a concept i made up long ago and have explored more than you can realise!

oi...

blah blah.. oh wait more blah...

1)I brought this up for discussion... when it came to discussion you siaid no.. and left..

2) I said what it was.. and then realized where I err'd.. but the problem is that my err is a relative err.. meaning relative to 'a' it is and relative to 'b' its not.. hence the its right and wrong.. again furthering discussion.. to whihc you just gave the proverbial rant..

3) if you look at my post right after spiral's.. I state assertion number 2.. to which you ranted mate.. my response between your two was not me just blowing up.. it was me responding to your utter refusal to "discuss" anything..

"these are just words, symbols for concepts of spinning i'm trying to express..." [but refuse to discuss]
"this is only an issue of _my_ terminology that i don't think you understand yet. ." [think being an operative word there]
"i wouldn't be teaching this stuff if i didn't" [perhaps your teaching somewhere but sure isnt here]

I could go on quoting you for days arashi.. I never argued anything with any of those clips.. I asked once for an explanation and then before I got noe realized MY err.. you don't seem to understand that do you..

its your way or no way.. yes I've run into these problems before with the "airwrap".. not by "reinventing" the term.. but rather by asking very specific questions about what it was and wasn't only to get misleading or mixed responses.. the problem is not with the defintion of inverted.. it never was.. the problem is that you refuse to discuss anything..

I could not care less about arashi.. that's not an insult.. its the fact that you only want to help when it helps you.. when it comes to helping others.. you onyl want to go back to your elitism.. I dont' care...

I'm posting the stuff FOR others.. Im TEACHING others.. I'm LEARNING from others.. and I'm DISCUSSING with others.. unlike you.. ssave your hypocrisy for someone that cares mate.. even though you've managed to yet again turn a discussion to crap I will try to salvage it..

getting back to the point..

what we have assesed thusfar is tha in the clips we have a bf weave that uses same direction motions of an inverted weave with an opposite direction spin.. this puts the left poi anti-spinning in the buzzsaw part.. the question now becomes: can we do this with two normal spin or must we use a level of anti-spin to move the hands through, and if so at which points?

the clips above show the use of a single antispin to workout the crossed 3bt, however, I've been working on trying to adapt this to -a- 5bt version..

now I'm starting with the model of a same direction spin.. I find this works easiest with reverse spin, though you can apply it to forward.. it goes like this:
on the right side of a 5bt reverse weave.. after the twist the left hand usually leads to the left side.. however.. as your making the final twist.. the lft poi goes over the right and under, but instead of leading across, have it come up in the buzzsaw.. the easiest way to explain this motion is to turn your torso to the right side a little and as the left comes over the right, do like you would a forward buzzsaw weave.. but instead of taking the inverted weave further right (as you would normally if you were doing the forward 3bt inverted weave) bring it back left so that you cross to the left side of the reverse..

to some of you that discription is mud.. others will follow.. for those that dont' I'll try and get a clip up later this week.. schools starts next week so I have department meetings and such this week to keep me relaitvely occupied..

for those that do follow, does the same trick work with the opposite spinning? can you do a 5bt bf weave version of this, even if it is a cop out like the way I do the 3bt.. since IMO (which is wholly less then others infinite wisdom) is getting us steps closer to the true invertions should they be possible..

hopefully.. discussion will follow..

{slaps forehead)
my god it's like talking to a brick wall.
you still don't understand what inverted means. you're still using the word incorrectly. how many ways do i have to try to explain the same thing before you even start to try my explanations, much less respond to them?? did you EVEN TRY to do this move the way i suggested? you haven't mentioned it yet.
you've got to be the most stumbling arrogant person i've ever met, and you keep throwing this elitist thing at me, ever heard of the word "projection?" i don't believe that spending more time than someone else makes someone better than another person. these insultsare just a big huge road sign of a personal problem you have with me because i keep trying to tell you things you don't want to hear. if i am such an elitist then why did all those people get online to tell you that i've spent countless hours teaching and sharing ideas with them? sorry but you're just spewing your all over the room again.

"its your way or no way.. yes I've run into these problems before with the "airwrap".. not by "reinventing" the term.. but rather by asking very specific questions about what it was and wasn't only to get misleading or mixed responses.. the problem is not with the defintion of inverted.. it never was.. the problem is that you refuse to discuss anything.."

ummm... i've spent probably 20 hours at least on this thread this week. so as before with airwraps rather than try to understand what people are saying you just take the information and run with it, rather than trying to understand the people who taught you the stuff. now you say you knew these "inverted" moves before, that i didn't teach you any of it. fine. maybe you did. i can believe (barely) you taught yourself this one move i posted, out of countless variations. but you still are lumping it in with the wrong family, if you knew MORE of them it'd be obvious. you haven't responded at all to the thing i've said over and over and over and over about crossing an inside.
in fact nowhere in any of your descriptions or questions YET have i seen the word inside at ALL, nor have you responded productively to my assertion that it is inside, you just keep hammering away at how this is a different kind of inversion than "we thought it would be." and at the end of each of your posts you just reassert that i'm wrong , that it's inverted. how CAN i teach when you won't listen?

this is really simple. all i'm asking you to do is slow down and listen to people. if you'd get over this fugged up daddy complex you've got with me it'd probably help.

if you had read any of the stuff i posted on this thread there's about 40 moves sitting right there teasing you. but first you have to actually humble yourself to read what i said and {gasp} TRY TO DO THE THINGS I'M SUGGESTING. you haven't responded to any of my posts about insides, you just keep redescribing your move. none of the things you are saying are wrong EXCEPT THE THING I KEEP TELLING YOU YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND YET. this hasn't been a dialogue from the beginning, it's a confrontation.
and if me not wanting to talk to people who obviously have no respect for me and continually show it in passive agressive ways is elitist, then fine. you've been right all along.
i'm not dignifying your posts with a response until i even see a hint of the word "inside". remember me? the guy on the other end of this conversation?

your posts here describing this move are all correct, if you take the word inverted out of them. you seem to be listening to me only so far as to try to prove that it is still a kind of inversion.

moving past distractions..
I have since realized that the 5bt version (of what i was doing opposite direction) is actually much easier then the 3bt.. the planes are exceedingly wider.. I didn't have time to give it a spin before.. so if you take and do what I do in the clip.. but instead of bringing it across from right to left, bring it the opposite way across the right side.. if that makes sense... so I guess we can strike that question...

Two questions for arashi...

1) So what is your definitive definition of "inverted" then... I had thought from your past posts it meant when you're spinning in planes that are facing each other like in a buzzsaw.

2) Are you saying that this move Rev posted a video of is basically the same as the one you're talking about on the last page where you start from a crossed inside bf and then "fold" it out?

2 quick answers... that will make no sense i'm sure

1)well this answer i'll try again but it's complex and i think we'll have to stay pace with each other cause there's no definitions or reference for any of this yet. i figured it would take a forever to really get there using words so i haven't really tried yet. and once we resolve this video issue this should be much easier and less time consuming!

you have to look at the way the planes are "facing", in this i mean your hands/fingertips/grips are on one side, the whole plane faces the other.

in this kind of spinning, spinning in a box of planes, there's several hand positions, 1)both planes inverted, 2) one inverted- one out(like the bfly with one hand pointing toward the front like normal, one inverted- so the right arm would be wedged inbetween the two planes), and finally 3) both out. the planar term "inside" is ONE KIND of "both planes out", inverted is the both inverted. there's plane positions in space, relative to the body, inside and outside. the planar terms and the hand position terms are separate. these moves really make more sense as far as the way i personally divide them up if you condense it down, in this case (i think) to just an inside move, because when you cross your arms and do stuff like isolate things it makes the rules really funny but everything i've found seems to make sense if you start from here.

2)(sorry rev i don't want you to think i'm talking around you but he asked, hopefully you will read this answer too.) well i hope but unfortunately i can't seem to get him to try to do what i'm talking about or answer my question so i don't know for sure. so this is all still just words. and as i just said a paragraph ago, it'd really help if i knew, if this move DID condense down to be an inside move then yes. i'm pretty sure these moves are the same. if they aren't i won't know until he tells me. until i do know, i have to fall back to the next level which is to try to explain the math behind a really complex idea since there's hundreds of variations in here, there's a bazillion ways to do a butterfly much less all the airwrap and isolating variations in these higher degree combinations. so all i ask is that you don't spread a term into use while i'm gone at least until you THINK you know what i mean, use your own words(cause there's other ways to look at things i'm sure). so next time i can talk with you about this we understand each other. and now have to go to bed i've been up working all night and i have lots of stuff to do for the next month or so including going to burning man and now i ended up spending almost two hours doing this post. if the move rev is doing is the move i'm asking if he's doing then all that should make sense. if not i'm just being cryptic yet again

right

"1)both planes inverted, 2) one inverted- one out(like the bfly with one hand pointing toward the front like normal, one inverted- so the right arm would be wedged inbetween the two planes), and finally 3) both out. the planar term "inside" is ONE KIND of "both planes out", inverted is the both inverted."

so:
1) is the 'buzzsaw' or those crossarm inversion buzzsaw thingies?
2) is like what the 2bt crossed inverted weave produces. another example is the inverted beats in the notcoleman5 (i'm not sure i understand that inverted bf example)?
3) inside/outside is both planes facing or facing away from body - inside example is a (not btl) watermill; outside example is the weave)?

so 'fully inverted' means both planes are facing or facing past each other between the arms?

is this right dude?

Well I'll admit that it doesn't quite cover everything no, but it gives me a clearer idea of where you're coming from. So for instance if you have one hand spinning a circle in front of you the other hand can be spinning a circle

a) with the plane facing outwards so the hand is inbetween the plane and your body, or

b) with the plane facing inwards so the hand is between that plane and the plane of the outermost poi,

but in both cases the planes of the two poi are in the same place...

Hmm...

grr i had to check again b4 i went to bed...

spiral, yes and yes

cole,
1)yes, and also everything you have in 2
2) (shhh pretend you didn't see this #) this one is sort of fuzzy and i'm not even going to get into trying to get us to understand each other yet, please, cause we haven't really talked about it much yet anywhere, i skimmed rev's "threading" thing and it MIGHT be that. it comes more to play in atomics than here. (once we get through this crap atomics will unfold like a lotus) slight chance rev's move may be in here if i saw it wrong
3)yup.

we haven't gotten to how rev's move fits in yet, i'm waiting for more hand/circle references to point at but it is a kind of 3) i think

"inverted" is one polar point, like an "event horizon," a focus around which the rest of the families create pretty shapes and wings.
how's that for cryptic you bastards
you can roll your arms around it with different techniques but the point is there
now go reread how I pondered abuot how we could overcome the inverted bfly

what you need is poi that go through arms...

i have nothing sensible to add to this conversation, just thought id let you it makes interesting if 'i dont really see how thats possble' reading. maybe one day.

figured it out. NOW with hindsight it seems so obvious!
do a complete bfly inverted airwrap, backwards- without airwrapping-use the SJ instead of airwrap during the outside beats

thanks for the SJ instruction rev that move's been teasing me for quite a while

yo! rev! the tofurkey's steaming!
the mayshed buttaytas is hot!
pass the gravy!



points up to a resplendent circus looking decorated archway over the entrance to the thread with lights and painted people in 1920's attire which reads "blah bla blah"

ok I ahve anumber of things I want to list here and PLEASE GOD bare with me because I ahvent' had timeall week to really come thoruhg here and really dont have much time now.. do not get offended arashi.. please read my whole post..

"2)(sorry rev i don't want you to think i'm talking around you but he asked, hopefully you will read this answer too.) " - arashi
no porblems.. I skipped you over to try and keep the discussion moving since I never saw a need for the bickering that god laid down and wasnt' wasting anymroe time on it..

"well i hope but unfortunately i can't seem to get him to try to do what i'm talking about or answer my question so i don't know for sure. so this is all still just words. and as i just said a paragraph ago, it'd really help if i knew, if this move DID condense down to be an inside move then yes. i'm pretty sure these moves are the same. if they aren't i won't know until he tells me." -arashi (which should be followed by the quote of you syaing you perfectly well undersand what I'm doing but I wont.. )
perhaps I missed something.. see.. I explained in the first clip.. the one that doesnt even do anything special.. the clip that was the base.. that as a base for the movements in the crossed vid, I would use a slightly off timing on bringing a bf from outside.. to inbetween the elbows, back to outside.. however rather then bounce the bf like that.. I just squished it into a more comforatble threading motion..
so yes the root of this move.. as far as the hand motions go are plain and simple like the bouncing in and roll over and out.. I've said it several times.. I'm not even sure if I'm on the page everyone else is.. my head is REALLY f'd up this week..


nowI didnt' raise those as argument.. I raised those points because I want to stress that I wasnt' getting pissy man.. (unitl after I got yelled at) I understand I misused the terms.. but in other respects I didnt.. and that's the only point I wanted to make because I wasnt clear on 'inverted with respect to what' as you wanted until now.. and please do bare with me because I think I followed the discussion there after but was mainly skimming through.. I'm sure I have a lot on the split thread umm thread..


now.. somethings I wanted to say that are already known lol.. or wnated to bring up at least that are porbably moot..

the split thread.. that hit me when I wanted something that made use of the inner (is that the right term that's what I've always used) pplnae and the outer plane.. and kinda threaded them together,.. I made the comment that part of this thing buzzsaws, because I feel refer to any swing that passes between the elbows, as buzzsaw.. and do understand that that was pushing the term.. but I needed a way to distinguish the inner (under arm) from inside (buzzsaw like) part.. it was after weaving the spplit threads that I uncovered how relatively easy it was to not stop on the inner (underarm) beat and rather psuh through into the SJ.. but instead it SJ'd like a second and then came right out.. because of the threading of the outside inside outside butterfly motions.. which lead me to that crossed bf thing which made feel so frickin stupid.. because there it was.. a butterfly weaving using the 3bt inversion handmotiosn... frickin basics go figure..

now..
what is this that you've figured out that has made you not hate my guts again? because I'm really glad we've moved past that point YET AGAIN and hope that we don't go down that road again.. please though bare with me on this have we figured out the other one.. the one that actually uses butterfly hand motions and gets the bf crossed thing/...

its that time again folks...

ok.. so if you wanted to invert an antispin.. say an antispin with forward spinning poi.. then what you would need is to spin -through- the inverted part with reverse hand motions to complement the forward spin right?

so lets start on the left side.. the poi spinning forward.. the left hand goes under the right (ala 3bt antispin).. now if you turn your torso to the right as you push the left under (the right poi should be spinning over the left shoulder).. now the tricky part.. get the left to swing over the right arm so that it comes down inside the left bicep and under the right bicep.. the right poi will then come down inside the left bicep .. now your on the right side.. and the right hand pulls over the left arm and pushed under.. turn your torso to the left... the left poi should be spinning over the right shoulder.. the right poi then spins back over the left arm and down inside of the right bicep.. and pushes out to the left (under the left bicep) and pull the left through the inside.. lather... rinse... and lather again you dirty people.. j/k...

I don't know how close to the antispin inversion is.. it seems off to me.. but everytime I find a fault.. I find I'm wrong.. so if someone has this already.. help me out.. if not give a spin.. sorry no clip at this time.. my socks fell out of my books sack at school.. so I'll make some new ones when I get the chance... the only thing I can say.. is if you look at the inverted bf weave.. one hand antispins through the inverted part... take a gander at that... again.. this one works by body movement.. I lurve body movement.. make them poi go where they dont fit..

no takers...

well that one I think is right.. almost 100% sure, but it seems too easy, but I'm pretty sure is right.. this next one.. I'm not so sure about..but at least 75%.. give or take a quirk

the 5bt antispin inversion..

on the left side with the poi spinning forward, the right poi comes under the left arm to the front and back over the left arm to the back and back under the left arm from the back side...now at this point it should come up inside the left bicep (and thus between the arms) and then back over the left bicep (and thus to the outside left) where it then leads across to the right side.. and of course on the other side you do the mirror.. left hand comes under the right to the front and back over the right to the back and back under the right from the back inside the right bicep and back over the right bicep to the outside where it then leads across to the left side..

In about 2 months i'm gonna be able to tackle all these "antispin" descriptions.
until then does anybody understand what i mean by threading parallel weaves? is anti spin the same as threading a parallel weave contrary to the direction of wick's spin, like slowly going from a right hand on top clockwise parallel to a left hand on top clockwise parallel? god i hope so cause i really don't want to have to read all these antispin posts on hop and spherculism

Yup, that sounds right to me. Parallel antispun weaves though? Sounds tricky

hey people, i'm just wondering does anyone know of a place that sells poi and fire staff equiptment in the uk close to Nottingham, or at least in the east middlands? i broke my dam poi and it won't be fixed, dam them!... but the only place i know is too expensive and it's a bit shoddy... stuff just doesn't last long!

Well I think all the Poi stories here are interesting. But for those like me that have no more time to spent with internet to read it all will really, really help short video cuts. I know not allof u have cam. me too.
Well ,then I will read it part ot part i hope i'll understand